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madbomber31
Guest
i bought a used ranger today and it's a flex fuel v6... from what i'm reading i can mix ethanol and gasoline? is that correct? in any combination?
how much is ethanol?
how much is ethanol?
oh god, I hope that wasnt a selling point for you
good dealbignate73 said:
Lao Tzu
New member
juiceddreadlocks said:good deal
Given the choice I'd rather spend $3 a gallon where most of my money goes to american farmers instead of Saudi Kings and Venezeluan presidents. Guess where Iran and Iraq got the money to buy WMD? It wasn't from ethanol, which benefits US farmers. I'm buying a flexfuel vehicle once I can afford one.
http://www.setamericafree.org/
Here is info on where to buy ethanol. Sucks. The goal is to get 25% of gas stations to carry ethanol in the next few years.
http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php
I bet when you figure in the subsudies it costs much more than $3 a gallon. Hey, you get the govt to drop the subsudies on sugar and corn and maybe it would work, maybe even give incentives to farm instead of not to farm.Lao Tzu said:
Although MrPlunkey would disagree, the majority of science agrees (right now) that ethanol isnt scaleable. How bout buying a diesel vehicle and making your own bio or running it on vaggie oil?
Lao Tzu
New member
juiceddreadlocks said:
Technology is constantly improving and as it does price goes down. Wind power is 85% cheaper than it was 20 years ago due to research on how to lower costs. It was about 30 cents a kwh, now it is 5 cents a kwh. Solar power is 80% cheaper than it was 16 years ago. DVD players were 10-15x more expensive than they are now just 10 years ago. As new methods of producing ethanol come along the price will go down.
Brazilian ethanol is about $1.40 a gallon, but the US has a major tariff against it.
http://www.card.iastate.edu/iowa_ag_review/spring_06/article3.aspx
For example, in October 2005, the Brazilian ethanol price was $1.38 per gallon. Adding freight and the import tariff, the price for ethanol would be about $2.12 per gallon (including the 16¢-per-gallon transportation cost), which is below the $2.47 per gallon U.S. price for the same month.
Lao Tzu said:
Are we supposed to start using manual slave labor to pick our sugarcane like brazil does? Is the $2.12 any savings at all with the lesser energy content of ethanol? You're preaching to the choir here about tarrifs. Why dont we use/grow more sugarcane?
Why dont we have cds that spin at more than 60x for burning? Are you sure you can get scaleable ethanol production along with food production before we reach the functional limitation of producing corn or sugar or celluluse for ethanol? What about the first time a tornado wipes out a processing plant or we get more drought (which is a distinct possibility) and we dont get nearly the corn crop we should? Since there's so much excess right now that's not as big of a problem as it would be if we were using all of our cropland and needing all of it plus 20%
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/6/26/191251/537 here's a discussion on the limitations of ethanol the way we know it now.
Lao Tzu
New member
juiceddreadlocks said:
Fair criticisms. However what about hurricanes knocking out oil refineries? What about Arab countries calling for an embargo as punishment for supporting Israel? What about a war breaking out? These are risks you take with oil.
I am pretty knowledgable about alternative energies, but I am not exceptionally knowledgable about biomass. I do know ethanol needs 50% more energy to be equal to gasoline though so I am not sure if it is $3 or $2 a gallon. However as with solar & wind power, ethanol tech will cut prices down. There is research on obtaining biomass ethanol from forests and using genetic engineering of termite genes to break the wood down into sugars for example. There is also research into switchgrass which is cheaper to make and has the ability to make 1000 gallons of ethanol per acre. Miscanthus can make 1,500 gallons per acre. Corn only makes 328 gallons per acre
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
"Producing ethanol from corn requires almost as much energy to produce as it yields," he explains, "while ethanol from switchgrass can produce about five times more energy than you put in. When you factor in the energy required to make tractors, transport farm equipment, plant and harvest, and so on, the net energy output of switchgrass is about 20 times better than corn's."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel#Sources
In 2005, United States gasoline consumption was about 150 billion gallons per year. [1] An acre of corn can produce approximately 200 gallons (gasoline equivalent) per year. The United States would have to place roughly 750 million acres of corn into production to fully meet this demand. For comparison, this is nearly double the total area currently used for all crops in the US (430 million acres) and about one third of the total land area of the United States (2.3 billion acres). [2] There are currently about 80 million acres of corn planted in the United States.
So even with 1,500 gallons per acre that is still 100 million acres of biomass, about 1/4 of all crop land. Still a bit high, but you can still get a good amount of ethanol from this method. Throw in genetic engineering and other agricultural science methods and you can probably cut that number down farther. Combine that with doubling of auto fuel efficiency (which is feasable) and you only need 1/8 or less of farmland to grow enough ethanol to have a 100% ethanol transport system.
There is also science on obtaining diesel fuel from coal. I don't fully support this as it can still lead to climate change but its still better than being dependent on foreign oil.
The reality is alot of our foreign policy is tied into oil. Gulf war 2 was not about oil, but Gulf war 1 was. Gulf war 1 happened because Iraq invaded Kuwait and obtained control over 20% of the world's oil reserves. Then they planned to invade Saudi Arabia which would've given them control over 40%+ of the world's oil. So the world invaded and kicked Saddam out. had it not been for Gulf war 1 we wouldn't have Gulf war 2 and the $300 billion price tag, increase in terrorism and diversion of the military from Afghanistan that we currently have due to Gulf war 2. I'm not necessarily opposed to Gulf war 2 mind you but w/o gulf war 1 which was about oil there'd be no gulf war 2.
Also Iran had an Islamic Revolution in 1979, but that was in part because the US & UK helped overthrow the gov. of Iran in 1954 because of nationalization of oil. You seem smart, I assume you know all this. My point is that foreign oil is a bad idea. The Saudis get the money to fund their schools that teach radical hate filled idealogy from oil. And at the end of the day I'd rather spend $100 a month where alot of it went to fund farmers than spending that $100/month to fund Arab kelptocrats who abuse human rights.
The goal isn't necessarily a 100% ethanol society. The goal is to wean ourselves off of the international oil market. A good deal of our oil is domestic, and our biggest suppliers abroad are Canada & Mexico. I'd guess 40-50% of our oil is either domestic, Canadian or Mexican. If you combine better ethanol technology with higher fuel efficiency and flexfuel vehicles then we can probably get all the oil we need domestically and from Canada & Mexico and all of our ethanol domestically.
Y_lifter
New member
As I understand it, the one issue currently with Ethanol usage growth is that most
of it in the US is produced from corn in the mid-west. Transporting it via pipeline
out of there east and west via pipeline is not possible today due to the corrosive nature of the stuff.
So, it must be transported by truck or rail using fossil fuels, hence it not making
financial or environmental sense.
I do know that Fla is either looking to, or has, started a pilot program to produce ethanol from sugar cane like the brazilians have. We have lots of it in South Fla
and it is supposed to be more efficient than using corn, relating to outputs.
of it in the US is produced from corn in the mid-west. Transporting it via pipeline
out of there east and west via pipeline is not possible today due to the corrosive nature of the stuff.
So, it must be transported by truck or rail using fossil fuels, hence it not making
financial or environmental sense.
I do know that Fla is either looking to, or has, started a pilot program to produce ethanol from sugar cane like the brazilians have. We have lots of it in South Fla
and it is supposed to be more efficient than using corn, relating to outputs.
bignate73
New member
yeah but hydrogen is completely renewable via water.....so......no money to be made on extracting water. hence the reason this country won't see hydrogen as a mainstream energy source...though the technology is still there.
prediction:
cars become more hybrid, still using gas just less, but since gas prices are still on the rise the % of US income spent on it will be proportional. perhaps the implementation of ethanol since it seems to be catching on, good for american farmers, and has a "we did it ourself" feel to it, while still consuming oil in the conversion.
Hydrogen gets buried for about 30+ years to find a way to make money off of it, unless someone with a buttload of cash throws it out there and the public catches on to it. Its cheaper for oil interests to pay off someone like that though, especially if they are making money hand over hand over hand over fist.
prediction:
cars become more hybrid, still using gas just less, but since gas prices are still on the rise the % of US income spent on it will be proportional. perhaps the implementation of ethanol since it seems to be catching on, good for american farmers, and has a "we did it ourself" feel to it, while still consuming oil in the conversion.
Hydrogen gets buried for about 30+ years to find a way to make money off of it, unless someone with a buttload of cash throws it out there and the public catches on to it. Its cheaper for oil interests to pay off someone like that though, especially if they are making money hand over hand over hand over fist.
mrplunkey
New member
Congratulations on buying a flex fuel vehicle. You'll appreciate that feature over time.
A flex fuel vehicle can run anywhere from 0% ethanol up to 85% ethanol and you can mix and match anywhere in that range.
You don't see that many E85 pumps right now because all the fuel ethanol is being sucked-up to replace MTBE as an oxygenator in fuels. We make about 4.5B gallons of fuel ethanol each year and we need the next 4.5B gallons to cover that.
After that, you'll see E20 (20% ethanol) and E85 (85% ethanol) everywhere. Probably in the corn belt first, and then it will work its way toward the coasts.
Right now, the East Kansas Agri-Energy (a new fuel ethanol plant: http://www.ekaellc.com/) is pumpinp-out ethanol for between $1.00 and $1.05 per gallon. Would you rather pay arabs a fortune for fuel and fund terrorist activites or would you rather set up our *own* renewable version of Saudi Arabia in our own corn belt and buy cheap fuel?
A flex fuel vehicle can run anywhere from 0% ethanol up to 85% ethanol and you can mix and match anywhere in that range.
You don't see that many E85 pumps right now because all the fuel ethanol is being sucked-up to replace MTBE as an oxygenator in fuels. We make about 4.5B gallons of fuel ethanol each year and we need the next 4.5B gallons to cover that.
After that, you'll see E20 (20% ethanol) and E85 (85% ethanol) everywhere. Probably in the corn belt first, and then it will work its way toward the coasts.
Right now, the East Kansas Agri-Energy (a new fuel ethanol plant: http://www.ekaellc.com/) is pumpinp-out ethanol for between $1.00 and $1.05 per gallon. Would you rather pay arabs a fortune for fuel and fund terrorist activites or would you rather set up our *own* renewable version of Saudi Arabia in our own corn belt and buy cheap fuel?
Y_lifter
New member
I'm hoping and betting also on Ethanol blends then Total for the short term
( <100 yrs )
Long range I see Some way to make Electric power using non fossil means, and much better storage or transmittal methods into vehicles and houses.
Maybe a mix of Solar, Wind, Hydro, Fusion, Nuke or whatever works regionally feeding one grid.
( <100 yrs )
Long range I see Some way to make Electric power using non fossil means, and much better storage or transmittal methods into vehicles and houses.
Maybe a mix of Solar, Wind, Hydro, Fusion, Nuke or whatever works regionally feeding one grid.
mrplunkey
New member
Ethanol is a fantastic plan for our future. It's the only plan that has a migration path for both the fuel AND the vehicles AND raw materials.dullboy said:
Vehicles
------------------
Today: Emerging flex fuel vehicles -- millions of cars committed to production
Tomorrow: Dedicated E85 vehicles
Fuel
------------------
Today: Ethanol as a 10% additive in fuel as an oxygenator to comply with the CAA
Tomorrow: E20 (20% ethanol) and E85 (85% ethanol)
Raw Materials
--------------------------
Today: Energy from natural gas (most plants are fired that way); Starch from Corn or Sugar Cane
Tomorrow: Energy from Bran*; Starch from Cellulose (wood)
There are soooo many great angles to ethanol, and here is just one of them: Today's plants use less natural gas than ever, but they still use natural gas. We're looking at using coal-fired boilers (with coal being very available in the US) instead. When you do that, you can also burn bran from the corn itself, which is extracted if you go to a fractionated front-end on the ethanol plant. So in short you strip the starch out of the corn, send the germ off for oil, and send the bran to the furnace to run the steam plant. And the funny thing is... the oils and bran from unfractionated corn actually slow-down fermentation. So fractionation adds another 10%-15% throughput to the plant using the same energy and same fermenters.
No other alternative fuel plan has a migration path. For example... biodesel. Yeah, right... desel has been such an incredible success in this country in consumer vehicles hasn't it? In short, it's great for industrial applications but won't fly with consumers.
Other things, like fuel cells, are great and do represent our long-term future. Problem is, unless you guys are ready to cough-up $20k... $30k... or $50k on a new ride who's fuel may or may not take-off, you'll probably want to stick to a car that has a migration path (i.e. a Flex Fuel Vehicle) right now.
Just think back to VHS versus Betamax but instead of a $350 player it's a $35,000 car. You ready to take that risk?
dullboy
New member
mrplunkey said:
dullboy says that there was a great article in the WSJ today regarding this entire issue.
ethanol is the only viable alternative fuel source.
until recently, the issue was that you had the 2 most powerful lobbies in the country (outside of trial lawyers) basically competing against eachother. that would be Agriculture and the Oil and Gas industry.
that's a recipe for nothing getting done, which is exactly what has happened.
now they are working together so they can both profit.
watch how quickly things change.
mrplunkey
New member
Definately. I think there are some other great ideas out there that are longer-term, its just that ethanol is the only solution that can work for the immediate present and really for the next 10-20 years.dullboy said:
And you are right -- we had the ADM's of the world lobbying against the Exxon/Mobiles of the world and nothing got done. Now there is a new space emerging -- "BioEnergy" that is incredibly hot. New IPO's in this space are oversubscribed by 10 to 1 ... and these are basically utilities, not some hot-shot Internet company or Life Sciences firm.
mrplunkey
New member
Naaa... crazy shit happens when corn exceeds $3/bushel. At that price you can't roll your car windows down when you drive or some crazy farmer will load-up your back seat with manure and plant seeds.Y_lifter said:Within 10 years, an ear of corn on the cobb will cost you $15
mrplunkey
New member
Ethanol can't be piped because it's corrosive, but also because all pipes get water in their lines. With oil lines the stuff just seperates, but with ethanol it forms a minimum boiling point azeotrope at 95% ethanol and 5% water.Y_lifter said:
You can truck and rail it just great tho, and plants are normally built in rail lines so we can get the corn in and the DDGS out anyway.
Y_lifter
New member
Yes,
But my main point was for the tree hugger eco crowd, as the benefits of cleaner
Ethanol are partially blown by the need to burn dirty fossil fuel to transport it to depots, vs pipes being used.
Unless your trucks and trains also are burning ethanol.
That was my only point why ethanol wasn't racing off on the environmental side.
Nationwide Pipeline networks carry a crapload of fuels a very long distance today from refinery to depot very cheaply. Ethanol would require moving it some other way adding cost and pollution.
But my main point was for the tree hugger eco crowd, as the benefits of cleaner
Ethanol are partially blown by the need to burn dirty fossil fuel to transport it to depots, vs pipes being used.
Unless your trucks and trains also are burning ethanol.
That was my only point why ethanol wasn't racing off on the environmental side.
Nationwide Pipeline networks carry a crapload of fuels a very long distance today from refinery to depot very cheaply. Ethanol would require moving it some other way adding cost and pollution.
Lao Tzu
New member
dullboy said:
Brazilian ugarcane produces about 650 gallons of ethanol per acre, american corn only makes about 328. So scaling up sugarcane production is different than corn. I still think GE and agriculturally modified switchgrass is where its going to occur.
Also biomass can be used to fuel coal plants. So there is a market in that too.
mrplunkey
New member
Oh, cellulose is definately the future. We just have to be careful and stay focused on the present which is sugar cane and corn.Lao Tzu said:
I think 20 years from now there will be "micro" ethanol mills that only produce 15M-30M gallons/year of ethanol each. They can then be located closer to the coasts and even placed in or near metropolitan areas. They'll be a standard plant design, based on standardized components and mass-produced equipment (much of what is in a plant to day is semi-custom fabricated stuff) -- hence they will be cheap to build. They'll take wood waste and switchgrass as fuel, and the leftover fermentation product will be dried and used a fuel to run the process. The enzymes will provide "cold cook" use, so the only heat energy required will be the distillation and evaporation stages.
I have a dream!
Lao Tzu
New member
bignate73 said:
Biomass is an international market so I don't think supplies would dry up. Brazil makes a good deal of biomass and other countries are going to go into the market. Besides flexfuel vehicles can still run on oil so if there were massive crop failures we would just use gasoline instead for a year.
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