Finishing First Cycle... Would Really Appreciate Advice

[mrplunkey]

6' 2.5" @ 237... approx 10% BF

Here's my game plan:

Cycle one (currently finishing week 8)
Test Cypo @ 200 mg/week for 10 weeks
HGH @ 4 IU's day (2 am, 2 pm) 5 days on 2 days off
Started Anastrozole @ 1mg EOD at week 3
HCG administration for 10 days after 10th day of last test shot

So far, nice changes in body composition. Traded about 5ish lbs of fat for 5ish lbs of lbm (I think). I didn't increase my calories properly the first 5-6 weeks, and I think that held-back some of my gains. I was stuck in a really bad "one bodypart per day" rut, so I mixed-up workout routine and focused on a lot of ancillary lifts (i.e. I could squat 405 for 8's but lunges with 135 were kicking my butt before).

1) I plan on spending all of December w/o Test but with HGH @ 4 IU's / day
2) I plan to continue my old workout routine in December test-free, but make concessions in weight and reps as necessary (not even sure how much I'll lose)
3) I plan to eat cleanly even test-free... not sure if I should eat like I did on-cycle, or cut back to my more moderate eating pattern.

In a nutshell, I'd like to use my test-free month of December to not only get my own test production going, but I'd also like to back-off a little bit in the weight room so I can build-up physical and emotional "steam" for my big run in January. I know a bad diet and partying can kill gains -- won't be doing any of that.

Next cycle starts December 2:

Test Cypo @ 300 mg/week for 10 weeks
Deca @ 300 mg/week for 10 weeks
HGH @ 4 IU/day (5 on, 2 off)
Anastrozole EOD starting week 3
HCG for 10 days after 10 days past last test shot
Considering addition of injectable Winstrol

Will increase workout and diet considerably this next time... not going to be as conservative on calories as I was first time around.

I know this is a broad question, but what mistakes do you guys see in this game plan? Was the first cycle too weak or too short? Is the second cycle appropriate? Would you add Winstrol to the second cycle? Is my December game plan a formula for losing gains? Should I eat like I'm on-cycle in December? How much rest versus how much plowing in the weight room should I do in December?

Thanks in advance,

Mr. Plunkey

 

[alltraps]

you should take more time off between cycles. train just as hard when off, but cut a few sets out. eat like a mofo, as you will be in a catabolic state, and if youre not getting enough calories, it will just add to the mess. for a second cycle, i would use test at 500-600 a week with dbol to start at 30mg a day. i dont understand why you used GH in your fist or second cycle. you simply dont need it. save it for your xteenth cycle when gear doesnt work much.

 

[Apexx]

You definitely need to wait untill at least Feb if you aren't getting blood work done
to let you know if it's ok to go back on. If you go back on Dec 1st, I can assure you that your natural test levels probably aren't stable yet. A good rule of thumb is no less than 8 weeks after you finish your pct should you start another cycle.
And the growth isn't something that's typically used for a first or second cycle.

 

[mrplunkey]

For a number of reasons, I went through one of those Internet "anti-aging" sites. I know they are overpriced and also conservative (I had to arm-twist to get them to go 300 mg/week on second cycle), but I also have a need to stay legitimate. It's a long story, but some fantastic luck retired me at 36 (i'm 37 now). The higher prices are no big deal and it is nice to be able to speak with an MD at the drop of a hat (and/or get some blood work done). I stand to lose a ton if I'm caught with illegal gear, so I'll need to be legit for at least the next few years.

The Internet service was really big on the "synergy" between Test and HGH, claiming that HGH can make smaller doses of Test 1) More effective and 2) More permanent. It may be (and probably is) bullshit, but I'm still learning here

Thanks,

 

[idcbp]

Time an again I see guys jumping into the sauce game with gh. WTF? I still haven't used it, but if I did, it would be with a heavy cycle (bulk or cut) and it definitely utilize insulin and possible t3 which are far from beginner drugs. Come to think of it neither is gh guys! Why spend the cash whne you don't have the knowledge or experience to get a 10th of your moneys worth out of it. Mr. P please don't take this as a flame, it not directed at you, but more an open question to the community about how or when gh became such a beginners drug. I worry that b/c it doesn't give you immediate obvious sides like gyno and hair loss and b/c its thought to overcome (ha ha) genetics bros are overlooking the fact that it can be verry dangerous if its misused and the ffects can be permanent. Just a thought guys, not coming down on anyone.

 

[mrplunkey]

Time an again I see guys jumping into the sauce game with gh. WTF? I still haven't used it, but if I did, it would be with a heavy cycle (bulk or cut) and it definitely utilize insulin and possible t3 which are far from beginner drugs. Come to think of it neither is gh guys! Why spend the cash whne you don't have the knowledge or experience to get a 10th of your moneys worth out of it. Mr. P please don't take this as a flame, it not directed at you, but more an open question to the community about how or when gh became such a beginners drug. I worry that b/c it doesn't give you immediate obvious sides like gyno and hair loss and b/c its thought to overcome (ha ha) genetics bros are overlooking the fact that it can be verry dangerous if its misused and the ffects can be permanent. Just a thought guys, not coming down on anyone.

Well.... HGH is the lead-off drug for these "anti-aging" companies and I'd guess it's because they make much higher margins on it than they would on a more common drug like Testosterone Cypo. They also sell on the idea that with HGH, you need much less testosterone to see similar gains.

I'm pretty amazed with HGH/low-dose Test Cypo combination. The joint pain sucks, but it subsides. For *years* i've had something I've called "the swamp" around my midsection. I can get to 8% BF (at the cost of 40 pounds off my bench press, nonethless) and the swamp is still there. I've dieted, cardioed, used spot-reduction creams and done liposuction. These have all diminished the swamp a little, but HGH has kicked the swamp's ass. Also, I not only have vascularity in my arms, but veins racing across my shoulders, into my chest, throughout my hips and even a couple popping-up across my back. And here's the catch... my numbers are creeping up on all my core lifts, my recovery is fantastic and i'm more "solid" overall.

If I had to bet on whether it's the HGH or the Test, my money would be on the HGH because:

1) I've not only experienced no acne, but my skin is actually clearer than it was pre HGH/Test
2) My weight hasn't changed a pound since I started -- I started at 237, and i'm 237 now (but I've probably traded 5-7 lbs of fat for lbm or water)
3) Zero testicular atrophy at 8 weeks into the program.
4) Zero changes in agressiveness
5) Massive increases in recovery. I'm 37, and pulls and aches that used to take 3-5 days now take a good night's sleep
6) I demonstrated textbook HGH joint pain that continues to subside
7) The spot reduction around the midsection from HGH injections is spectacular

Anyway, I don't profess to be an expert, but I'd do HGH/low-dose test forever but i'm considering this more agressive second cycle because i'm starting to think that my 345ish bench may be able to walk to 405 by mid to late next year.

Thanks,

 

[mrplunkey]

Time an again I see guys jumping into the sauce game with gh. WTF? I still haven't used it, but if I did, it would be with a heavy cycle (bulk or cut) and it definitely utilize insulin and possible t3 which are far from beginner drugs. Come to think of it neither is gh guys! Why spend the cash whne you don't have the knowledge or experience to get a 10th of your moneys worth out of it. Mr. P please don't take this as a flame, it not directed at you, but more an open question to the community about how or when gh became such a beginners drug. I worry that b/c it doesn't give you immediate obvious sides like gyno and hair loss and b/c its thought to overcome (ha ha) genetics bros are overlooking the fact that it can be verry dangerous if its misused and the ffects can be permanent. Just a thought guys, not coming down on anyone.

Oh, as far as using HGH with insulin. I wake-up at 5:45 am each morning, shoot 2 IU's of HGH and go back to sleep.

Then, I eat heavily post-workout around 3:00 PM, hold-off eating till 5:00 PM, shoot 2 more IU's, take a 45 minute nap, then eat atain around 7:00 -- that gives me at least 2 hours before and after every HGH injection so i'd guess my blood sugar is fairly low anyway.

Thanks,

 

[mrplunkey]

Bumping thread into prime-time -- would really appreciate feedback

Thanks,

 

[mrplunkey]

Follow-up question (I know, I have a million questions but i'm learning): What about bridging my first and second cycle with Anavar (since it doesn't shut-down test production)? Bad idea?

Thanks,

 

[idcbp]

Great response bro, the board needs more exhange and guys who see a slight critique as grounds for discussion, not childish give an take of flames. I didn't realize you were 37 which does play a big part, IMO, in the effective low dose application of gh. Additionally, you seem to be using it in an intelligent well educated manner. I was addressing the fact that too many guys are using whatever they can get easily and more legally. Thats why so many bros are starting their sauce careers on fina and then screaming about sides. No shit, its an advanced drug. Just b/c its available doesn't mean one should use it. That said, mr.p you seem to be getting great results and thats sweet. Makes me think post 35 most guys would do well to start scaling back their test dosages and bringing in the gh. In your case I'd probably avoid the insulin anyway since you are looking to drop the fat as the prime objective.

As a rule, anavar will suppress nat. test just not greatly, but I'd avoid bridging with anything except the gh which you respond to. At such low dosages, you really could remain on the test/gh combo for a long time and I bet still see positive results. If you want to go for bigger cycle type action, then definitely come off of all roids and go with a solid pct followed by a good break and the hit it a little harder than before. My only question was since this is your first cycle, how can you be sure you wouldn't have got similar gains from test alone, strength and size wise? Granted the swamp dredging was the gh, but the size and strength could be test b/c even low doses can work wonders if you are depleted.

 

[mrplunkey]

My only question was since this is your first cycle, how can you be sure you wouldn't have got similar gains from test alone, strength and size wise? Granted the swamp dredging was the gh, but the size and strength could be test b/c even low doses can work wonders if you are depleted.

That's what's killing me -- I really don't know how much of this cycle was test and how much was HGH. I'm nervous that when I end this cycle in 2 more weeks (shot #9 comes tomorrow AM) that I'll lose gains.

My goal was to get one baseline cycle under my belt, do PCT, then try the Test/Deca/HGH and possible winny stack I proposed earlier. I've gotten the basics complete from cycle 1 -- modest strength gains, traded some fat for lbm (or water, don't know for sure yet) and familiarity with IM and sub-q injections. Next stop -- 405 bench by the start of summer (hopefully)

I'm just thankful for people reviewing my first cycle and my upcoming second cycle and doing a sanity check on it before I get rolling. I'm also thinking about cutting my first cycle one week short and getting PCT going a week early so I will have a cycle of 9-on, 5-off, 10-on going (instead of 10-4-10).

Thanks,

 

[mrplunkey]

Sorry to self-bump, but I have to order my next round of stuff in 2 weeks. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[nydj66]

Here's my $0.02 worth:

HGH is probably responsible for getting rid of the "swamp" while the test helped create the added lean mass.

You stated that you would like to recover tesosterone production but your PCT and time between cycles will not accomplish this. HCG will stimulate tesosterone production and keep the testes from atrophy but it will supress LH and FSH production just as much as the test cyp did.

I'd go with HCG for 2 weeks immediately following the last test shot. Then 40mg/day of nolvadex for 1 week, then 20mg/day for 2 weeks. Follow that up with at least 3 weeks completely clean. Then you stand a chance at recovery.

 

[mrplunkey]

I wonder if this would work -- I did shot #9 Sunday, and I realized that my #10 shot which should be 1 ml (200 mg) of test will come-up short (long story, but I probably wasted 0.1 ml 3-4 weeks in a row "lubricating" the needle -- this was my first cycle and the needles thing did wig me out at first).

I think I'll make shot #9 my last one, start HCG in 10 days, run it for 10 days, then start the next cycle Jan 2nd. That gives me 9 weeks on (albeit at only 200 mg/week) 5 weeks "off" (but that includes 10 days of HCG in there). My concern is that if I start the next 10 weeks later than the 2nd, it may get clipped by some travel that I'll need to do in weeks 9 and 10.

That would translate into 6 weeks from Cycle #1, Shot #9 and Cycle #2, Shot #1 -- that getting closer?

Thanks,

 

[nydj66]

Getting closer but I don't see the need to wait 10 days after the last test shot. HCG will bring the testes back into line even if there is still exogenous test in your system.

It's LH and FSH production you need to recover and that will take at least 3 weeks with no gear, no HCG. Start the HCG earlier and you buy more time to recover.