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Division in Europe

Weapon X

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Division in Europe
By Anne Applebaum

It isn't often that I think the opinions of another magazine are worth quoting at length, but I have just read something so stunning that I think it worth making an exception. For the purposes of general education, I would like the readers of Slate to have a good, close look at the editorial printed in the most recent edition of the New Statesman. The New Statesman is a left-wing but not far-left mainstream British magazine, with a reasonably large readership, some good columnists, and a certain amount of influence in the Labor Party. Perfectly normal, sensible people work for it. I was in their offices last week. Now I quote:



Americans would do well to ask themselves why, despite what should be an enormous propaganda advantage in beaming their way of life to every corner of the globe, their ideals and values have signally failed to inspire the Third World young in the way that Marxism did and Islam now does. (Indeed, it often seems that the only people truly inspired by the US are a small band of disciples in London, with Gordon Brown and Tony Blair at their centre.)


There is more:


The death of the Soviet Union also deprived the global poor of something more intangible: not exactly hope, perhaps, but the sense of an alternative, of possibility.


And this:


American bond traders, you may say, are as innocent and undeserving of terror as Vietnamese or Iraqi peasants. Well, yes and no. … If America seems a greedy and overweening power, that is partly because its people have willed it. They preferred George Bush to both Al Gore and Ralph Nader.


I'll leave aside the fact that these statements are almost blindingly stupid. Anyone who thinks American values do not inspire the Third World has clearly never been to the Third World, and anyone who feels nostalgia for the "alternative" offered by the Soviet Union must also favor the totalitarian terror, the ignorance, and the poverty that the Soviet Union imposed on its own people and exported around the world. I won't even lower myself to discuss the notion that Americans are to blame for last week's tragedy because they voted for George Bush.

What is important is that such things are being written in Britain, a country where the majority of the population is genuinely sympathetic to the United States. I was in London myself last week, where parties and concerts were canceled out of respect, and American flags were flying in solidarity with the American people. Tony Blair has indeed supported America, almost to the point of caricature: He has now taken to appearing in public wearing windbreakers of the sort favored by George Bush.

This division, between the views of the British public and the views of the New Statesman editorialists, is now being echoed across the entire European continent. I expect it to grow worse. It already seems to have grown worse since I wrote about the subject in June, even since I described the same phenomenon last weekend. In the last 24 hours, the columnists of the Guardian (Charlotte Raven, George Monbiot, and Martin Woolacott), the Times (Michael Gove), and the Daily Telegraph (Robert Harris) have almost all addressed themselves to the subject. This morning, a British friend rang to describe a polite London dinner party she had attended. It ended in a vicious fight, with pro-American friends vowing never again to speak to anti-American friends, and one wife threatening to divorce her husband.

I would wager that the same sorts of divisions will soon emerge in Germany, in France, and elsewhere in Europe as well, gradually developing into a full-blown culture war. Although some of the arguing will touch, legitimately, on aspects of American foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, quite a lot of it will be about the nature of the modern world. Those who approve of the global economy, of the spread of Western culture, and of the universality of democracy and capitalism will find themselves ranged against those who dislike these very same phenomena. These include European intellectuals of the sort who work for the New Statesman as well as those, further to the left, who have marched in the anti-globalization demonstrations, and those, further to the right, who deplore "foreign" influence, including American influence, whatever form it takes.

American leaders can and should contribute to this battle: George Bush himself ought to speak directly to the European public, reaching over the heads of the European media. Over the months and years it will take to wage war against terrorism, the United States will need allies of all sorts, and it must start building the support of those allies now. But the bulk of the fighting will be among Europeans themselves. And the outcome will probably determine the future of that continent: Is it to be the closed "Fortress Europe" that so many have feared, or the partner of the United States in the great project of making the world a freer, richer place? I don't claim to know which side will triumph.


http://slate.msn.com/foreigners/entries/01-09-18_115721.asp
 
Wow

that's interesting info WX, not surprising, but definitely interesting. I'm tuned in to what other countries are actually coming forth to say about US policy abroad. Having lived in Europe, and traveled to the M. East, I have had quite a few conversations with natives from different countries. At some point GW will have to address the issue of why America is so hated in some places. Hopefully he'll tell the truth, if he even knows. I think whatever he knows, he heard from someone else seeing as how he's never been overseas.
 
Since we haven't "inspired anybody," why don't they GIVE US ALL OF OUR FUCKING MONEY BACK!!??

Seriously, shit like that pisses me off...

And the sad thing is, some of this stuff is being spouted IN AMERICA!!!
 
Badkins21 said:
Since we haven't "inspired anybody," why don't they GIVE US ALL OF OUR FUCKING MONEY BACK!!??

Seriously, shit like that pisses me off...

And the sad thing is, some of this stuff is being spouted IN AMERICA!!!

Badkins in many instances the money we so graciously give goes in to the hands of corrupt individuals in power and not to the poor people its supposed to. It then gives the impression to the downtrodden of these countries that the US is actually supporting their corrupt leaders.
 
B 21

Since we keep giving these countries "financial aid" to further their (our) cause, they won't stop accepting it. We have already promised Pakistan money to allow us to setup shop there!
Why? If they are so united to fight terrorism....why do we need to shell out cash? Stupid move by us. Don't think there won't be more of those deals done before this is over. :mad:
 
The Nature Boy said:


Badkins in many instances the money we so graciously give goes in to the hands of corrupt individuals in power and not to the poor people its supposed to. It then gives the impression to the downtrodden of these countries that the US is actually supporting their corrupt leaders.

Precisely, and we know exactly where it's going...shit we trained the Afghans because of our tepid relationship with Russia.....didn't we train and give money to bin Laden also? Stupid, stupid moves.....in some way, our government is responsible for creating the hateful atmosphere in the M East. Doesn't justify what happened last week, but I feel like that kind of playing both ends against the middle crap played a part in the scenario.
 
Lets see what tune all of these fuckers are singing when Arab terrorists dive bomb their monuments and buildings. If they would have been successful blowing up the Eiffel Tower, and a few other strategic target in Europe were to be hit, I guarantee all these ungrateful fuckers would be kissing American ASS, begging for help.

Evertime they communicate to each other in a language other than German, they should be thanking Uncle Sugar.
 
we are better than any other country. i dont care if we have their support or not. the reason our way of life doesnt catch on there is because it takes work to live like we do. it is based on truth and not a bunch of lies used to give people hope and inspiration.
 
gymnpoppa said:


Precisely, and we know exactly where it's going...shit we trained the Afghans because of our tepid relationship with Russia.....didn't we train and give money to bin Laden also? Stupid, stupid moves.....in some way, our government is responsible for creating the hateful atmosphere in the M East. Doesn't justify what happened last week, but I feel like that kind of playing both ends against the middle crap played a part in the scenario.

And don't get me started as to how many asshole governements we've setup in that area that have treated their own people like shit (Iran, the Shah, Iraq Saddam, Egypt Moborak). You realize we give Egypt $10Billion dollars a year? For what? Moborak has been in power for 20 years, how many elections has he had? NONE. Why do we support that asshole? We don't look too good helping out governments that opress their own people.

I know, this is supposed to be a Europe thread. Sorry, but I'm a huge fan of democray.
 
ive seen these papers as i live here

i found nothing offensive. and i thik if there are papers that are right wing out there then yes i think its good that there are those that provide a left wing arguement as well. i likle the fact that not one type of opinion is pushed to us.

the british people have obviously been sypathetic. they are shocked like amyh other people at thecallousness iof the attack which used civillian jets in densley populated urban centres. it doesnt necessarily mean that a lot of them didnt agree with what views were being expressed in the guardian.

of the people i have spoken too nearly all have recognised that past US foreign policy could have left a bitter taste in those residents of the countries it has affected.

however some can say things which in hindsight could be taken in bad taste. given that those shocked by the tragedy arestill very emotional certain statement may rile up people. these havent been placed in newspapers however so i see no problem.

this is just britain however. i doubt france would even get involved unless someone blew up the l'arc de triumph. its their call, its their sovereign right at the end of the day. i just feel its odd they wouldnt follow through with military aid no matter how small when NATO pledged it yet still want membership.
 
The Nature Boy said:


And don't get me started as to how many asshole governements we've setup in that area that have treated their own people like shit (Iran, the Shah, Iraq Saddam, Egypt Moborak). You realize we give Egypt $10Billion dollars a year? For what? Moborak has been in power for 20 years, how many elections has he had? NONE. Why do we support that asshole? We don't look too good helping out governments that opress their own people.

I know, this is supposed to be a Europe thread. Sorry, but I'm a huge fan of democray.

Didn't know that......10 Bil a year? every year? or just once? please tell me that was a onetime deal.......FUK! WE need to come clean with the dirty deals, leave them alone, clean up our own backyard......that 10 bil will help pay for our new sky marshals, or research......Is Egypt part of the "coalition"?
 
MoneyBags said:
i hear that france has already surrendered to afghanistan.

:)

they do have a lot of colonies though (many former and with high no.s of muslims)...maybe they wish not angering them by attacking a muslim country. maybe they dont want to see french servicemen killed or if a huge miliary strike is lauinched be partt of the inevitable retaliation that occurs
 
every year. we also give the same to Israel but they're democratic so no complaints out of me.

Egypt is part of the coalition, but what does that mean? Are they going to supply troops? Probably not. Think of them as cheerleaders or the 5th string QB. They don't play, but they have a great view.
 
GUy's please don't tar all european with the same brush here, after all unless I'm looking at the posts of native americans most of you a probably European decentants anyway. There's alot of division in America also. Your own public lost you the vietnam war for god sake.
I could get sick of the same people here slagging off everyone from Canadians to Europeans to Arabs and untill some MODS took a firm hand we recently went through an unfortunate phase of slagging off black americans.
Unless it's escaped some of your attentions here europe has faced it's share of terrorists over the past 50 years. All of which we've tried to combat ourselves and as a result we have probably the best intelligence services in the world (I'm including Isreal in this), best anti terrorist forces in the world, best bomb disposable services in the world etc.. Our airport and harbour security measures are 30 years ahead of America. etc...
I can only speak for myself as an Irish soldier, but I'm prepared to give myself 100% to your war on terrorism, not with 'special envoys' with their politcal speak fighting for their politcal careers and "fuck you and your problem, this will look good on my politcal CV". I'm prepared to fight in any war which may result out of this out rage. Just today on the news here they were showing anti war protestors already protesting in America, so before you go knocking all europeans tidy your own house first.
I realise you guys have to let of steam in these terrible times ut don't forget your friends here in europe too.
Peace
Bouncer
 
MoneyBags said:
i hear that france has already surrendered to afghanistan.
:FRlol:

We bailed those fucking frogs out of WWII and Vietnam and they refused to give us airspace during the Iraqi War and they remain critical of us. Bastards.
 
Americans make a mistake to think Euro sympathy for our experience is also endorsement of an armed attack on Afghanistan.

The Europeans have been living with terrorism -- the IRA and the ETA -- for years.
 
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