Carb Question

[CrystalChick]

Hi Ladies I was sitting at my desk thinking.... and I was wondering if somebody could answer this question for me.
I would like to know How long it takes to reduce the amount of glycolgen S/P you stored?
Let's say you have a cheat meal one day out of the week maybe it's your favorite dessert. How long does it take to reduce the amount you stored from a cheat meal??
Im not sure if I am asking this correctly but I hope you get my point.

CC

 

[MS]

It entirely depends like Spats said. Glycogen will only be significantly depleted from muscles when you work those muscles. If you're a couch potato it will take a long time to deplete muscle stores. But if you train each muscle intensely you can deplete them within a couple of days. But working legs will only deplete leg glycogen, working biceps depletes bicep glycogen etc.....

Liver glycogen is a different issue, and depends on diet composition, exercise, insulin sensitivity etc.....

 

[Sassy69]

Depends on that you do after you eat it. This is why I usually indulge on leg day right before squats.

I believe if I indulged on leg day right before squats I would address the glycogen issue by puking..... lol

 

[CrystalChick]

Liver glycogen is a different issue, and depends on diet composition, exercise, insulin sensitivity etc.....

Hi MS this is exactly where I was trying to go with my question.
Could a cheat meal prevent one from loosing weight???

Thanks CC

 

[CrystalChick]

Re

I also had another thought since muscle Glycogen is depleted on an individual basis ie Legs Bi's would circuit training be one of the more effective methods to loose weight???

Thanks Again,
CC

 

[Gladiola]

Re: Re

I also had another thought since muscle Glycogen is depleted on an individual basis ie Legs Bi's would circuit training be one of the more effective methods to loose weight???

Thanks Again,
CC

Cheat meals are definitely a good thing one time per week - so long as you don't go REALLLY overboard (like 1,000 cals & 60 fat grams!).

Isn't weight loss a lot about calories in vs. calories out? So glycogen depletion doesn't have to always happen to lose body fat. Lots of people get lean without even doing cardio or circuit training.

But if you circuit train- you likely have the benefit of elevated heart rate (assuming no breaks b/t sets in the circuit) so it's CARDIO too-> but you won't get the max strength benefit.

 

[CrystalChick]

So Basically as long as you create a caloric defecit then you should loose weight

 

[Gladiola]

So Basically as long as you create a caloric defecit then you should loose weight

Welllll.. he he, It's not quite as simple as that.

Doing cardio you are using the aerobic metabolic pathway & using glucose & fat for fuel. Supposedly you want to do cardio in a glucose-depleted state so that you will burn relatively more fat - however fat burns in a carbohydrate flame - you need some glucose to burn fat. Where the break point is - I don't really know & don't understand. I feel too ill & am WAAY to likely to seriously binge if I get too hungry anyway so I'm not worried about it. Then again, I'm not trying to get near the single digits of bodyfat %, so I don't HAVE to worry about it.

But... when you are working anaerobically (SHORT bursts of exertion - bursts that the aerobic pathway can't give you enough energy for) you are burning ONLY glucose. That's why you want to replenish that muscle glycogen post *strength-training* WO with a hi-GI food.

I'm sure there are others who could shed some light on this! W6 posted about 'fat burning in a carbohydrate flame' a while back.

 

[Gladiola]

How long it takes to reduce the amount of glycolgen S/P you stored?

Oh yeah - also depends on HOW MUCH you eat!

Doesn't it also depend on what you do BEFORE you eat it --- since eating a high GI food (dessert) POST Workout (strength WO) will help replace muscle glycogen stores effecitvely.

That would lead me to believe that conversely - if you eat the dessert after not exercising, LESS of it will become glycogen & more will be stored as fat? Maybe????

 

[Gladiola]

Interesting - I had forgotten about the AFTER effect. I figured since you want to burn fat, gotta work aerobically - & you mentioned you're not using fat to sprint - but AFTERWARDS.... you're burning fat Cool. I hate the long sessions anyway (except for aerobics classes).

So I gotta ask why you can't sprint on a treadmill - you go fater than 10MPH?

 

[CrystalChick]

Hey Spatts


Well..... I was trying to figure out if a cheat meal could throw a person off in terms of loosing weight... I guess it can if whatever you eat is too high in calories.
Since it more Calories in vs Calories out then I understand what needs to be monitored.


CC

 

[MS]

A regular high carb cheat meal is beneficial for fat loss. But please don't eat pizza. Keep the fat low. You do not need depleted liver glycogen (or muscle glycogen) to burn fat. Replenishing liver glycogen regularly is essential to maintaining a decent metabolism. Otherwise you might as well go on a ketogenic diet. And the only reason to intentionally deplete muscle glycogen I can think of is if you need to carb load for an upcoming event. Otherwise it makes sense to keep you muscles as full of glycogen as possible most of the time. A full muscle is an anabolic muscle.

 

[CrystalChick]

LOL Spatts I read that If I remember correctly it was a piece of cherry pie she ate..

How do you know when your muscles are at full glycogen capasity?

Thanks CC

 

[Gladiola]

the only reason to intentionally deplete muscle glycogen I can think of is if you need to carb load for an upcoming event.

I read in my ACE Personal Trainer manual that glycogen depletion prior to carb loading isn't necessary & doesn't yield much greater results than being more conservative. I think they wrote that it was thought in the past that depletion was necessary, but recent studies show it's not.

Of course, I think you're a much better source of info than that text book! Just thought I'd get your opinion on that.

 

[Cheetarah]

Question for ya MS...

...You do not need depleted liver glycogen (or muscle glycogen) to burn fat. Replenishing liver glycogen regularly is essential to maintaining a decent metabolism. Otherwise you might as well go on a ketogenic diet...

So I recently purchased a book called "Human Nutrition and Metabolism" (followed spatts advice ) and have been reading it. Now since most of it is "over my head" anyway, I'm sure I am probably misunderstanding a lot of it, but, from what I thought I read, whenever the body's blood glucose level drops, the liver releases glucose back into the blood stream from its glycogen stores, correct me if I'm wrong. Now I realize that the body burns both carbs and fat as a fuel source at any given time, but I thought that if your liver stores are full, then that would stop you from burning as much fat because the liver will just release more glucose into the blood. But if the liver is low on glycogen stores, then your body would have a tendancy to try and save that glycogen and burn more fat instead. So is that wrong thinking? What are your thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

 

[CrystalChick]

I thought that if your liver stores are full, then that would stop you from burning as much fat because the liver will just release more glucose into the blood. But if the liver is low on glycogen stores, then your body would have a tendancy to try and save that glycogen and burn more fat instead. So is that wrong thinking? What are your thoughts?

This is the exact point I was trying to make

If you have a Cheat Item on lets sayyyy Sunday and your liver stores are full will this hinder fat loss for that week? as opposed to no cheat and consistantly low glycogen stores.
MS I read your reply but I want to be clear a cheat meal will not hinder a fat loss?

Thanks CC

 

[FitFossil]

I think the "no cheat and consistantly low glycogen stores" could be counter-productive, at least for achieving/maintaining leanness long-term. I'm not tallking about down-to-the-wire contest dieting, because I have no experience w/that.

When your glycogen stores are low, you won't be able to train at your peak because your muscles are lacking fuel. An undertrained underfueled muscle can't grow. My whole approach to leanness centers around being able to train as hard as possible. I prefer to create my calorie deficit through the hard training rather than by a very restrictive diet.

I cycle my carbs every few days. It's nothing scientific - I don't count grams or anything, but it usually works out where I have more carbs/a little cheat on the day before a hard training day. The key word is little cheat. I'm keeping the calories in hand, but I think the extra carbs are good for me psychologically, for training, and keeping my metabolism stoked.

 

[CrystalChick]

When your glycogen stores are low, you won't be able to train at your peak because your muscles are lacking fuel. An undertrained underfueled muscle can't grow. My whole approach to leanness centers around being able to train as hard as possible

What if you are trying to loose bodyfat maintain muscle not put on any new muscle does this still apply?

 

[dieslgrl]

I always recommend taking that cheat meal when you are already in an extremely depleted state, like after a grueling leg workout... your muscles are like sponges, and soak it all up... you will deplete again sooner as well if the glucose gets effectively used in your body so quickly... your also creating a nice anabolic enviornment taking that meal just AFTER the workout..

in the offseason, we always used to go out to eat after we trained legs... pancakes, steak, eggs.... mmmmm.....

(I've been dieting too long.. can't wait to get back to growing! LOL)

dg

 

[MS]

Lots of good input and intelligent questions in this thread.

Gladiola...glycogen depletion is a relative term. There are degrees of depletion, and if you're loading for a show or race etc.... then you need to keep a minimum amount of carbs in your diet......around 1g per kg LBM works well for most folks. This is mainly because an enzyme required for rapid glycogen resynthesis and supercompensation (called glycogen synthase) will 'switch off' if there are no carbs going into your muscles. Once it switches off (read 'down regulates') it is slow to switch on again. So yes, you need some carbs in your muscles to get optimum glycogen loading. Also note that high fat diets (eg keto) also reduce insulin sensitivity, making the carb load less efficient.

The primary purpose of liver glycogen is to stabilize blood sugar. But there's a big difference between post-prandial blood sugar (after a carb meal for instance) and fasting blood sugar (which is what you liver maintains). Even if you're on a keto diet, your depleted liver (via gluconeogenesis) will maintain normal fasting blood glucose levels. This is essential for survival. The reason ketogenic dieters obsess about liver glycogen levels is that ketosis can't establish until it's depleted. If you're not on a ketogenic diet then it's no big deal. The metabolic boost you get from regularly topping up your muscle AND liver glycogen far outweighs the extra carb calories you've just eaten. Full liver glycogen is part of a signal via leptin, adiponectin, thyroid, sex hormones and many other systems that you are not starving and that it does not need to reduce BMR and hold onto fat. High carb refeeds are a win:win situation, but you need them less often when you start a diet, and need to increase the frequency as you get leaner.

 

[CrystalChick]

So when you are lean your basically topping off the tank.
As opposed to when your loosing excess fat, the tank is already somewhat full due to the excess bodyfat and does not require the same number of refeeds (cheat meals)?


CC

 

[FitFossil]

What if you are trying to loose bodyfat maintain muscle not put on any new muscle does this still apply?

Yes, you still want to guard against catabolism (muscle loss). Losing muscle tissue will lower your metabolism.

 

[CrystalChick]

Awsome Thanks Ladies

 

[rez]

am i doing myslef an injustice.... since taking off time from the gym, and only being able to do low intensity cardio, I dont feel like my body needs carbs - like when I train. Today..was kinda weird.. I had a chicken and avo salad, protein powder w tablespoon flax and pysllum husks, protein shake and one egg. Dinner was salmon and salad and almonds a couple hours later.

Am I totally stuffing up my diet by eatin gthis way...I wasnt at all hungry..all these meals kept me full.

 

[CrystalChick]

The primary purpose of liver glycogen is to stabilize blood sugar. But there's a big difference between post-prandial blood sugar (after a carb meal for instance) and fasting blood sugar (which is what you liver maintains). Even if you're on a keto diet, your depleted liver (via gluconeogenesis) will maintain normal fasting blood glucose levels. This is essential for survival. The reason ketogenic dieters obsess about liver glycogen levels is that ketosis can't establish until it's depleted. If you're not on a ketogenic diet then it's no big deal. The metabolic boost you get from regularly topping up your muscle AND liver glycogen far outweighs the extra carb calories you've just eaten. Full liver glycogen is part of a signal via leptin, adiponectin, thyroid, sex hormones and many other systems that you are not starving and that it does not need to reduce BMR and hold onto fat. High carb refeeds are a win:win situation, but you need them less often when you start a diet, and need to increase the frequency as you get leaner.

MS I had a thought if a person craves sweets alot after training and it gets worse lets say towards the end of the training week is this a sign of low glycogen?
Is this what you want to happen when trying to loose bodyfat?
I am basically trying to find out if I REALLY need a cheat meal because I think it may be hindering my progress.
Or if I up my carbs maybe this will stop the sugar cravings I am getting
Thanks CC

 

[FitFossil]

Crystal Chick,

Did not see it mentioned in the thread, but what's the rest of your diet like as far as %protein/carbs/fats and meal frequency? Are you getting any Omega 3 fats like flaxseed oil? This seems to help me with cravings. Also, any time I eat a carb, I always have some protein with it. If I eat carb only, it makes me crave more carbs, so I never ever eat carbs all by themselves, even for a cheat.

 

[CrystalChick]

Hey Fit,

I am working with a Trainer who seems to be pretty knowledgeable.
It's just me I think..... this diet is really tight and Im finding my sugar cravings are killing me.
So on a cheat day I have something sweet but it seems to be a visious cycle and I don't think I am getting anywhere and I think it's hindering my progression.
Are these type of sugar cravings common?


My diet is like 1500 calories a day I eat every 2-3 hours very small meals... I am not taking any Flax now annnd I had these sugar cravings when I was taking it.

Any Help Imput would be much Appreciated
CC

 

[CrystalChick]

It's at night time the cravings come not at all during the day.....
I think it's because Im hungry and my blood sugar is going nuts at night... but how do you blunt this I have tried eating a meal protein shake, cottage cheese either I wake up starving orrrr I just want to eat anything sweet sweet sweet...
I have increase calories before and no bodyfat loss in the recient months so this trainer decreased calories but now Im hungy and clothes still fit the same.
I have not done a bodyfat reading with him since I started about 2 months ago...but since clothes still fit the same and scale weight is still the same (I know I Know LOL scale) I feel I have made no real progress to speak of at least im my mirror LOL

HElllllllP

CC

 

[CrystalChick]

Ok Spatterson I will, I have not tried that combo at night so If this does not work LOL


Thanks CC

 

[MS]

Craving sweets is pretty normal, and is worse for some folks than others. Researchers have recently identified a genetic variation found in ~30 of folks that predicts strong cravings for sweets. As yet, I have not found any method that absolutely will abolish these cravings when dieting. For me and lots of other BBs, this is something you just have to buckle down and be strong about. I go to bed craving sweets for 10-12 weeks straight everytime I diet. It often stops me from dropping off to sleep it can be sooooo bad. Cheat meals also make it worse for me, but again you just have to be strong. In any case you need to cycle your carbs and calories, or have high carb refeeds regularly for OPTIMAL fat loss with muscle retention. Of course you have to try everything else you can, including Spats yummy cocktail.

Also, you still haven't told us exactly what your trainer has you eating.........

 

[CrystalChick]

My Diet

Hi MS,

For now it is the following and varies daily

7:30 Cereal Fiber One, Kasha or Shreaded Wheat

9:30 15 Baby Carrots (My Choice from list)

11:30 1 Med Apple (My Choice from list)

1:30 4oz Chicken 1/2 Brown Rice 1/2 Cup Veggies

4:30 Either an Orange, Grapefruit, (A Fruit of my choice from a list)

6:30 Dinner Could be Protein from Chicken, Beans, Tofu and veggies steamed or 1 tsp olive oil, Brown Rice

8:30pm Snack could be a pear or another choice I have been given

I checked it out on fitday it roughly 1500 calories

 

[MS]

Thanks for that CC. I now see the problem. WAY too many carbs and no where near enough protein or fat. With all due respect for your trainer, that is a very poor cutting diet. You don't need to have a high carb cheat day on that diet, you need to have a high PROTEIN cheat day!!

 

[CrystalChick]

LOL It used to be 10 baby carrots I up it to 15 because I was hungry LOL
I talked with my trainer about this and his theory lets bite the bullet strip down then build again once I am leaner.
Good Fat I guess it's comming from the Chicken, Olive Oil, this is one day some day's it's different.
I have tried everything my body is so stubborn.

CC

 

[MS]

!

 

[CrystalChick]

I used to eat protein carbs every meal didn't work for me in terms of cutting I just maintained ugggggh now im really confused


CC

 

[CrystalChick]

Hey Spatts,

Yes, he has his creditionals from a well know college and I got him off the IDEA website. He writes for a lot of mags and he trains alot of people but the diet does have me confused to.
What do you think? I like him as a trainer but the diet Im a little concerned about

 

[NorwayFitness]

I would just like to say that since i discovered this GREAT board I have lost so much bodyfat that I'm actually starting to scare my boyfriend... I guess that I'm around 13 % bodyfat right now.

My point is...Listen to the advice these lovely ladies are giving you !!! I have tried to diet several times and thought that I knew just how to do it, but I always quit after a couple of weeks due to hunger and lack of motivation. But NOW I realize that I knew nothing... Since I changed my diet it's really " fun " to cut. It's not as hard as it used to be and I don't feel hungry at all !!!
I have a whole cheat day / week + one carb refeed day and I'm still losing weight so I actually need to up my cals a bit.
By the way I'm 5'7" ( sp?) and 134 lb and on "normal" diet days I eat 2000 cals.

So LISTEN and I promise that you won't regret !!!

NF

 

[CrystalChick]

Hi Spatts,

I did have my body fat taken at a sports rehab place about two months before I started out with this trainer and in two months it remained the same.
The diet I was originally on was not really yielding any results anymore and I felt it was time to switch things up.
I went to this trainer and he discussed my goals with me bodyfat wise and said for the time being follow this diet.
I am totally open to any suggestions or comments just giving you the rest of my backround.

Thank you
CC