ANDY13, I got your classII here!

[sterol]

Biochemistry and physiology of anabolic hormones used for improvement of meat production
Meyer HHD
APMIS
109 (1): 1-8 JAN 2001

A number of hormones are involved in endocrine regulation of growth. In general, these hormones enhance body protein accretion and metabolise fat stores resulting in increased lean growth rates. Most practical importance was obtained by sex hormones (oestrogens and androgens), P-agonists and growth hormone - whether legally or illegally. Efficiency of growth promotion ranges between 0% and +20% depending on the prerequisites such as species, breed, gender, age, reproductive status, body score or feeding of the animals. Oestrogens and androgens mediate their activity via intracellular receptors - directly in muscular tissue as well as indirectly via stimulation of growth hormone from the hypophysis and other growth factors from liver plus several further organs. In addition, mineral absorption in the gut is improved. The outstanding efficiency of trenbolone is based on its androgenic plus antiglucocorticoid activity. Melengestrolacetate is thought to act indirectly via stimulation of endogenous ovarian oestradiol in non-pregnant heifers. The necessary dosages and residue formations depend on the pharmacokinetic parameters of each substance and extrapolations between compounds are hardly possible. Growth hormone and beta (2)-agonists use independent pathways for growth promotion not related to steroid biochemistry.

So the ways to acheive muscle growth are through:
sex hormones (oestrogens and androgens)
P-agonists
growth hormone

and guess what?! Trenbolone is an antiglucocorticoid, which explains why you can gain mass even cal. restricted while on tren. (tren rules!)

So, your assumption that muscle growth is 90% AR mediated seems to be right, but you can't deny the benifits of "class2" effects especially the anticatabolic effect of tren (did I mention, tren rules!)

 

[Andy13]

Originally posted by sterol
Biochemistry and physiology of anabolic hormones used for improvement of meat production
Meyer HHD
APMIS
109 (1): 1-8 JAN 2001

A number of hormones are involved in endocrine regulation of growth. In general, these hormones enhance body protein accretion and metabolise fat stores resulting in increased lean growth rates. Most practical importance was obtained by sex hormones (oestrogens and androgens), P-agonists and growth hormone - whether legally or illegally. Efficiency of growth promotion ranges between 0% and +20% depending on the prerequisites such as species, breed, gender, age, reproductive status, body score or feeding of the animals. Oestrogens and androgens mediate their activity via intracellular receptors - directly in muscular tissue as well as indirectly via stimulation of growth hormone



Bro, this stimulation of GH is receptor mediated. The sentence means that the androgen can elict it's activity (through the AR) either directly in muscle tissue or indirectly by increasing GH.. But this is also through the AR.


The outstanding efficiency of trenbolone is based on its androgenic plus antiglucocorticoid activity.

Yes. But this is a Non-AR effect, not non-ar anabolism. Anti-catabolic doesn not equal anabolic.


Melengestrolacetate is thought to act indirectly via stimulation of endogenous ovarian oestradiol in non-pregnant heifers. The necessary dosages and residue formations depend on the pharmacokinetic parameters of each substance and extrapolations between compounds are hardly possible. Growth hormone and beta (2)-agonists use independent pathways for growth promotion not related to steroid biochemistry.

That's right... GH and beta 2 agonists use independent pathways for growth promotion that are not related to steroids... But we knew that already, didn't we?

So the ways to acheive muscle growth are through:
sex hormones (oestrogens and androgens)
P-agonists
growth hormone

and guess what?! Trenbolone is an antiglucocorticoid, which explains why you can gain mass even cal. restricted while on tren. (tren rules!)

So, your assumption that muscle growth is 90% AR mediated seems to be right, but you can't deny the benifits of "class2" effects especially the anticatabolic effect of tren (did I mention, tren rules!)

Correct, but again, estrogens block glucocorticoid receptors as well... However they are NOT anabolic in muscle tissue the way we want them to be..

I totally appreciate this! I think it's great when guys post articles.. We all learn from it... Unfortunetly, this does not demonstrate that non-AR anabolism exhists.

Andy

 

[sterol]

Re: Re: ANDY13, I got your classII here!

So, your assumption that muscle growth is 90% AR mediated seems to be right, but you can't deny the benifits of "class2" effects especially the anticatabolic effect of tren (did I mention, tren rules!)

Correct, but again, estrogens block glucocorticoid receptors as well... However they are NOT anabolic in muscle tissue the way we want them to be..

I totally appreciate this! I think it's great when guys post articles.. We all learn from it... Unfortunetly, this does not demonstrate that non-AR anabolism exhists.

Andy [/B]

OKAY OKAY, I give in. I conclude that no Steroid administered can lead directly to any type of non-AR anabolism. Well argued (I missed the point earlier on).

BUT, You must admit, there are lots of non-steroidal molecules that cause anabolism by means other than the androgen receptor. confer with a medline search on growth factors, they cause anabolism, by means other than AR binding, which is my only point left I guess

AND we both agree that significant muscle increase is caused by effects other than AR anabolism (ie anticatabolism)

Later

 

[Stew Meat]

I disagree... I don't think that the stimulation of other growth factors in the presence of high androgen levels is entirely AR-mediated. I believe that this is a non-AR mediated response.

The androgen receptor to my knowlege has no actions outside of the nucleus of the muscle cell... There it elicits its genespecific (myosin) code for the transcription of contractile proteins. However, the presence of high androgens also binds to androgen receptors in the liver... outside of the nucleus of the muscle cell. In this same manner, androgens cause a direct stimulation of various hormones that support muscle growth via protein synthesis. This IGF-1 has receptors within the muscle cell as well...

Please correct me if I am wrong.


-Stew

 

[Andy13]

I disagree... I don't think that the stimulation of other growth factors in the presence of high androgen levels is entirely AR-mediated. I believe that this is a non-AR mediated response.

The androgen receptor to my knowlege has no actions outside of the nucleus of the muscle cell... There it elicits its genespecific (myosin) code for the transcription of contractile proteins. However, the presence of high androgens also binds to androgen receptors in the liver... outside of the nucleus of the muscle cell. In this same manner, androgens cause a direct stimulation of various hormones that support muscle growth via protein synthesis. This IGF-1 has receptors within the muscle cell as well...

Please correct me if I am wrong.


-Stew

I'm not sure what you're saying...
Androgens bind AR's in the liver cause growth factor gene transcription? How's that non-AR mediated? Im confused.

I was under the impression that androgens bind all AR's in the cytoplasm.. And are translocated to the nucleus..

 

[Andy13]

I said that non-AR anabolism as caused by AAS has not been demonstrated inliterature.

How do you know primo alone will do nothing? What's the most you have taken alone?


ANd androgens blocking glucocorticoid receptors is a non-AR effect it certainly is not non-AR anabolism. Cytadren can lower corticoid receptor agonization better than AAS.. Would you load up on that to get bigger?


Show me.

 

[Andy13]

Can anyone show literature that demonstrates that AAS can elict growth without binding the AR?

 

[harddtime]

DELETE THIS SHIT BRO!!! SCAMMER

 

[Stew Meat]

Andy... I'd like to say I was drunk when I wrote that post, lol!
I just re-read it and I can't figure out what the hell I was talking about! I stated somethign then proved my self wrong.. hehe

I think you're right... But, water retention could possibly have some effect on contractile efficency which could lead to hypertrophy.





-Stew

 

[Andy13]

Andy... I'd like to say I was drunk when I wrote that post, lol!
I just re-read it and I can't figure out what the hell I was talking about! I stated somethign then proved my self wrong.. hehe

I think you're right... But, water retention could possibly have some effect on contractile efficency which could lead to hypertrophy.

-Stew

Yes.. But I don't think it's significant... at all...

BTW- were you on your way out or just getting in when you wrote that? lol


Andy