Affimative Action.....Banned?

[gotmojo]

Caught this on another forum, thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/07/affirmative.action/index.html

Ballot initiatives have been proposed in Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma that would give voters the chance to decide whether they want to do away with affirmative action in government-funded projects and public schools.


Ward Connerly, who heads the American Civil Rights Coalition -- a nonprofit organization working to end racial and gender preferences -- and the main backer of the ballot initiatives, says the 37 word initiative would read: "The state shall not discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education or public contracting."

"It would forbid any state or local agency or special district from engaging in preferential treatment," Connerly said.

Connerly, who is of African-American and American Indian descent, said affirmative action causes resentment. He criticized cases in which a Caucasian student might be denied a college slot in favor of a black student with a lower grade-point average.

"It's foolish not to think that the kid who is turned away is not going to ... resent that," Connerly said.

Connerly, who grew up in Leesville, Louisiana, said he experienced oppression because of his skin color during his youth.

"If it was wrong when I was born in '39 ... it's wrong now," he said. "If it was wrong to do it against a brown-skinned man, it's wrong to do it against a white man."

 

[puddlemonkey]

Interesting

 

[billfred]

Caught this on another forum, thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/07/affirmative.action/index.html

Ballot initiatives have been proposed in Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma that would give voters the chance to decide whether they want to do away with affirmative action in government-funded projects and public schools.


Ward Connerly, who heads the American Civil Rights Coalition -- a nonprofit organization working to end racial and gender preferences -- and the main backer of the ballot initiatives, says the 37 word initiative would read: "The state shall not discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education or public contracting."

"It would forbid any state or local agency or special district from engaging in preferential treatment," Connerly said.

Connerly, who is of African-American and American Indian descent, said affirmative action causes resentment. He criticized cases in which a Caucasian student might be denied a college slot in favor of a black student with a lower grade-point average.

"It's foolish not to think that the kid who is turned away is not going to ... resent that," Connerly said.

Connerly, who grew up in Leesville, Louisiana, said he experienced oppression because of his skin color during his youth.

"If it was wrong when I was born in '39 ... it's wrong now," he said. "If it was wrong to do it against a brown-skinned man, it's wrong to do it against a white man."

You think Obama supports this? I like the way Connerly speaks.

 

[roadwarrior]

Caught this on another forum, thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/07/affirmative.action/index.html

Ballot initiatives have been proposed in Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Nebraska and Oklahoma that would give voters the chance to decide whether they want to do away with affirmative action in government-funded projects and public schools.


Ward Connerly, who heads the American Civil Rights Coalition -- a nonprofit organization working to end racial and gender preferences -- and the main backer of the ballot initiatives, says the 37 word initiative would read: "The state shall not discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education or public contracting."

"It would forbid any state or local agency or special district from engaging in preferential treatment," Connerly said.

Connerly, who is of African-American and American Indian descent, said affirmative action causes resentment. He criticized cases in which a Caucasian student might be denied a college slot in favor of a black student with a lower grade-point average.

"It's foolish not to think that the kid who is turned away is not going to ... resent that," Connerly said.

Connerly, who grew up in Leesville, Louisiana, said he experienced oppression because of his skin color during his youth.

"If it was wrong when I was born in '39 ... it's wrong now," he said. "If it was wrong to do it against a brown-skinned man, it's wrong to do it against a white man."

Great to hear ... hopefully it spreads everywhere but what will Obama do... he is for affirmative action.

 

[75th]

Thank the Lord.

Racism at its worst.

 

[manny78]

That makes too much sense...

 

[75th]

That makes too much sense...

Which means it will never move forward.

I forsee that even 50 years from now, when whites make up 30% of the population, affirmative action will still be in play.

 

[needtogetarmy]

You think Obama supports this? I like the way Connerly speaks.

Obama supports affirmative action and even the extreme tool of racial quotas.

Also, check out the NAACP site - they give him a 100% rating on this topic.

Here is an NPR article whee he says he supports it:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11945378

Quote:

If elected, will you fight to keep affirmative action alive? If so, to benefit whom?

Oh, I'm a firm believer in affirmative action.

IMO racial preferences are wrong.

 

[GUARDIAN]

good idea to ban it but it wont pass i bet

 

[AAP]

A lot of people don't understand how AA truly works. They simply think that it is a tactic used to get unqualified people jobs they don't deserve.

While that is true to a small extent and a small parallel can be drawn the gist of AA is basically it comes down to regional/geographical standards, not race.

When a business opens they are (under AA's standards if they obey and apply) required to fill the MAJORITY (55% or greater) of jobs with whatever that geographical make up of the region is. If you can't find 55% of your employees from that regional pool, then you may hire above that percentage.

Take Miami Dade which is predominantly black and cuban. If you go and start a business that is required to follow AA standard and you have to hire 1000 employees. You must have at least 550 or more of them compromised by blacks or cubans. If you can't find 550 blacks or cubans that are suitable, you can drop that percentage. If you go to Ptown, and do the same thing there, you would be required to hire 550 whiteys. (Of course private enterprises like TBS and Indian casinos are exempt from this.)

So it comes down to a regional population that determines AAs guidelines. It isn't like they run in there and say "give that cuban a job or else." This doesn't mean that they HAVE to hire them anyway. They are required to hire QUALIFIED people for their positions. If you aren't qualified, you are not just given a job. Although many companies give out jobs with On-The-Job training to those who need it simply because it is a lot easier and cost effective to train someone for a position than it is end up fighting a discrimination lawsuit in court.

When I worked in HR for Motorola, I had to teach AA overview classes to all new hires during orientation.

 

[gotmojo]

A lot of people don't understand how AA truly works. They simply think that it is a tactic used to get unqualified people jobs they don't deserve.

While that is true to a small extent and a small parallel can be drawn the gist of AA is basically it comes down to regional/geographical standards, not race.

When a business opens they are (under AA's standards if they obey and apply) required to fill the MAJORITY (55% or greater) of jobs with whatever that geographical make up of the region is. If you can't find 55% of your employees from that regional pool, then you may hire above that percentage.

Take Miami Dade which is predominantly black and cuban. If you go and start a business that is required to follow AA standard and you have to hire 1000 employees. You must have at least 550 or more of them compromised by blacks or cubans. If you can't find 550 blacks or cubans that are suitable, you can drop that percentage. If you go to Ptown, and do the same thing there, you would be required to hire 550 whiteys. (Of course private enterprises like TBS and Indian casinos are exempt from this.)

So it comes down to a regional population that determines anabolic androgenic steroids guidelines. It isn't like they run in there and say "give that cuban a job or else." This doesn't mean that they HAVE to hire them anyway. They are required to hire QUALIFIED people for their positions. If you aren't qualified, you are not just given a job. Although many companies give out jobs with On-The-Job training to those who need it simply because it is a lot easier and cost effective to train someone for a position than it is end up fighting a discrimination lawsuit in court.

When I worked in HR for Motorola, I had to teach AA overview classes to all new hires during orientation.

Nice!

I was wondering when this side would be looked at. Good stuff!

I work in state administration right now and deal with AA issues good and bad daily. The bad always seem to go from zero to racial in 2.3 seconds.

 

[AAP]

In many ways, the AA is a benefit.

Suppose an overseas Chinese company came to your neighborhood and opened up a new factory with lots of great jobs. But hired only chinese workers or people from another county or such.

They come into your community and neighborhood, yet you don't get shit from them being there. So, what is one to do?

At least AA would require that 55% of the established geographical determinations be applied to their hiring and recruiting process.

 

[billfred]

In many ways, the AA is a benefit.

Suppose an overseas Chinese company came to your neighborhood and opened up a new factory with lots of great jobs. But hired only chinese workers or people from another county or such.

They come into your community and neighborhood, yet you don't get shit from them being there. So, what is one to do?

At least AA would require that 55% of the established geographical determinations be applied to their hiring and recruiting process.

That is a crap analogy - work permits and labor laws would never allow hiring 100% foreign workers. No AA required for that.

 

[nefertiti]

Obama supports affirmative action and even the extreme tool of racial quotas.

Also, check out the NAACP site - they give him a 100% rating on this topic.

Here is an NPR article whee he says he supports it:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11945378

Quote:

If elected, will you fight to keep affirmative action alive? If so, to benefit whom?

Oh, I'm a firm believer in affirmative action.

IMO racial preferences are wrong.

And I offer this in return:

In a wide-ranging interview, Mr. Obama, a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, said affirmative action programs should ultimately become “a diminishing tool for us to achieve racial equality in this society.”

(NY times article)

 

[needtogetarmy]

And I offer this in return:



(NY times article)

Thanks for pointing that out. Its like how he recently removed the Black Panther support page from his Official campaign page (one day after his historic race speech - go figure). It shows that he is willing to say anything to get elected.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/0...ack-panther-party-endorsement/comment-page-9/

 

[nefertiti]

Thanks for pointing that out. Its like how he recently removed the Black Panther support page from his Official campaign page (one day after his historic race speech - go figure). It shows that he is willing to say anything to get elected.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/0...ack-panther-party-endorsement/comment-page-9/

Ha, I knew you would take it that way. In that article I posted a clip from, he stood by supporting affirmative action NOW. He just acknowledged that he thought it should still be phased out in the future. Also, his campaign wasn't responsible for the black panther thing being there in the first place - those are user generated pages. But of course he removed it. Why shouldn't he?

 

[needtogetarmy]

I know from my experiences int he military Affirmative Action required the lowering of standards. There were a host of lawsuits in the mid 1990's where senior white officers were forced out to make room for lesser qualified minorities. The whites took the government to court and won. Unfortunately the damage was done and their lives were ruined because they were pushed out of jobs they loved.

Affirmative Action is supposed to work how AAP said it should but in the end it is used as a tool to give preferences to one racial group over another.

One cannot give special privileges to one group without taking away privileges from another group.

The perfect example of how Affirmative Action polices hurt people can be seen in the historic Supreme Court case The bottom line there was that a single white female, with a child, was denied admission to law school because of her race. Lesser qualified minorities took her slot. Does this sound fair? In essence the admissions department gave out free admission points on applications for being black. A person with a perfect GPA and high LSAT score would get hosed by a minority with much lower standards. I do not see how Ms. Grutter deserved to be discriminated against.

I get fired up on this topic because AA discriminated against me in the military and when I applied to law and PhD programs. If I didn't get a near perfect score on my GMAT and have a 4.0 GPA a "white" boy like me wouldn't stand a chance.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-241.ZS.html

 

[needtogetarmy]

Ha, I knew you would take it that way. In that article I posted a clip from, he stood by supporting affirmative action NOW. He just acknowledged that he thought it should still be phased out in the future. Also, his campaign wasn't responsible for the black panther thing being there in the first place - those are user generated pages. But of course he removed it. Why shouldn't he?

Obama's record speaks for itself. I've posted pages of his voting record and it does not match the message he conveys in his eloquent speeches. He has totally changed his message since running for president and that message does not reflect his past voting record and it does not reflect who he has associated with over his entire life.

It doesn't matter what facts come out. Obama's supporters will vote for him no matter what. I could list everything, how he attended a racist church for 20 years and is close friends with the minister yet this has no bearing on his character. I could mention he has Nation of Islam members on his official Congressional cabinet yet perhaps he has no control over that? For someone who preaches unity and racial harmony I would have thought he would have done much mover over his lifetimes to bring people together. He hasn't. Why should I believe him now? I am not going to trust his speeches because it does not reflect who he is. What he has done over his lifetime reflects who he is.

 

[nefertiti]

Obama's record speaks for itself. I've posted pages of his voting record and it does not match the message he conveys in his eloquent speeches. He has totally changed his message since running for president and that message does not reflect his past voting record and it does not reflect who he has associated with over his entire life.

It doesn't matter what facts come out - I cannot debate with people who close their minds to numerous facts that are really disturbing. Obama's supporters will vote for him no matter what. I could list everything, how he attended a racist church for 20 years and is close friends with the minister yet this has no bearing on his character. I could mention he has Nation of Islam members on his official Congressional cabinet yet perhaps he has no control over that? For someone who preaches unity and racial harmony I would have thought he would have done much mover over his lifetimes to bring people together. He hasn't. Why should I believe him now? I am not going to trust his speeches because it does not reflect who he is. What he has done over his lifetime reflects who he is.

1) I'm not voting for him....stated that a million times. In principle I cannot, based on his politics. Not anything race related.

2) You strayed from the point and completely ignored the fact that I pointed out that you made a false assumption about the panthers thing.

3) I can't debate with someone who so readily clings to what I opine to be fear mongering propaganda. If you want to battle with politics and actually talk issues rather than "He's a racist black" and "he's a muslim in disguise," you know where to find me. I've read all the same stuff you did and none of it washes with me. I still recommend you read his books and get to know a little more about your candidate from the other perspective.

I think you and I need to leave it at "agree to disagree" in the future.

 

[needtogetarmy]

I think you and I need to leave it at "agree to disagree" in the future.

You took the words out of my mouth! We have been down this track before and I was wrong for jumping on this train this morning. I agree we disagree!

 

[Dial_tone]

A lot of people don't understand how AA truly works. They simply think that it is a tactic used to get unqualified people jobs they don't deserve.

While that is true to a small extent and a small parallel can be drawn the gist of AA is basically it comes down to regional/geographical standards, not race.

When a business opens they are (under AA's standards if they obey and apply) required to fill the MAJORITY (55% or greater) of jobs with whatever that geographical make up of the region is. If you can't find 55% of your employees from that regional pool, then you may hire above that percentage.

Take Miami Dade which is predominantly black and cuban. If you go and start a business that is required to follow AA standard and you have to hire 1000 employees. You must have at least 550 or more of them compromised by blacks or cubans. If you can't find 550 blacks or cubans that are suitable, you can drop that percentage. If you go to Ptown, and do the same thing there, you would be required to hire 550 whiteys. (Of course private enterprises like TBS and Indian casinos are exempt from this.)

So it comes down to a regional population that determines AAs guidelines. It isn't like they run in there and say "give that cuban a job or else." This doesn't mean that they HAVE to hire them anyway. They are required to hire QUALIFIED people for their positions. If you aren't qualified, you are not just given a job. Although many companies give out jobs with On-The-Job training to those who need it simply because it is a lot easier and cost effective to train someone for a position than it is end up fighting a discrimination lawsuit in court.

When I worked in HR for Motorola, I had to teach AA overview classes to all new hires during orientation.

The single greatest post in the history of Elite Fitness. All my karma belongs to you. AA mostly only applies to companies of 50 or more employees that contract with the government.

I know from my experiences int he military Affirmative Action required the lowering of standards. There were a host of lawsuits in the mid 1990's where senior white officers were forced out to make room for lesser qualified minorities. The whites took the government to court and won. Unfortunately the damage was done and their lives were ruined because they were pushed out of jobs they loved.

And there was another lawsuit in the 70's where the Army was accused of discriminating against black officers when they wanted to downsize the military. They lost and my father (LTC) bought the house I grew up in with the proceeds.

 

[nefertiti]

You took the words out of my mouth! We have been down this track before and I was wrong for jumping on this train this morning. I agree we disagree!

I engaged you first. My bad.

 

[needtogetarmy]

I engaged you first. My bad.

I have a short trigger though...as you probably know by now it doesn't take much to get me going!

 

[manny78]

A lot of people don't understand how AA truly works. They simply think that it is a tactic used to get unqualified people jobs they don't deserve.

While that is true to a small extent and a small parallel can be drawn the gist of AA is basically it comes down to regional/geographical standards, not race.

When a business opens they are (under AA's standards if they obey and apply) required to fill the MAJORITY (55% or greater) of jobs with whatever that geographical make up of the region is. If you can't find 55% of your employees from that regional pool, then you may hire above that percentage.

Take Miami Dade which is predominantly black and cuban. If you go and start a business that is required to follow AA standard and you have to hire 1000 employees. You must have at least 550 or more of them compromised by blacks or cubans. If you can't find 550 blacks or cubans that are suitable, you can drop that percentage. If you go to Ptown, and do the same thing there, you would be required to hire 550 whiteys. (Of course private enterprises like TBS and Indian casinos are exempt from this.)

So it comes down to a regional population that determines AAs guidelines. It isn't like they run in there and say "give that cuban a job or else." This doesn't mean that they HAVE to hire them anyway. They are required to hire QUALIFIED people for their positions. If you aren't qualified, you are not just given a job. Although many companies give out jobs with On-The-Job training to those who need it simply because it is a lot easier and cost effective to train someone for a position than it is end up fighting a discrimination lawsuit in court.

When I worked in HR for Motorola, I had to teach AA overview classes to all new hires during orientation.

But why ? What if I want an all-chocolate business ? What's with that obsession of being politically correct ? Thank God we dont have that in Canada.

 

[needtogetarmy]

But why ? What if I want an all-chocolate business ? What's with that obsession of being politically correct ? Thank God we dont have that in Canada.

There was a post in here the other day about a Canadian school that just got approved to be afro-centric. Supposedly whites up there are oppressing blacks and the only way blacks can learn things is if they are in an Afro-Centric school.

Canada has he same issues as the US. Except there is no reason to have that BS up in Canada. There was no slavery up there.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCAN3022622920080130

Cliff Notes:

TORONTO (Reuters) - The largest school board in Canada plans to launch a black-focused school to tackle the problem of high dropout rates.

In a vote late on Tuesday, The Toronto District School Board decided to move ahead with the project after months of debate over the value of creating an Afro-centric school. About 12 percent of students in Toronto schools identify themselves as black, according to government data.

 

[AAP]

That is a crap analogy - work permits and labor laws would never allow hiring 100% foreign workers. No AA required for that.

The key word there is "SUPPOSE". Had you read that, you would have realized it was just an examplanary scenario. You would have also realized that I never said anything about foreign workers.