150.000 dead so far

[pintoca]

Since the "invasion" in Irak started in 2003.

How many is enough? one could ask himself

(btw, that number is Iraki nationals, add the dead troops to that)

 

[CO B-man]

Seeing the hurt children tears me up. The little alqaida losers I could care less about.

 

[pintoca]

I just happened across a compilation. Fuck, I wish I could "unsee" that. Not that it would change anything

 

[jnevin]

I just happened across a compilation. Fuck, I wish I could "unsee" that. Not that it would change anything

It's horrible to see. They always have the reports saying 2 soldiers killed, 7 wounded, and 75 Iraqi's dead, many more wounded.

I can't imagine the fear those people must be living in.

 

[patsfan1379]

It's horrible to see. They always have the reports saying 2 soldiers killed, 7 wounded, and 75 Iraqi's dead, many more wounded.

I can't imagine the fear those people must be living in.

 

[perkele]

Rwanda is still leading.

 

[OMEGA]

when I saw that footage in the movie theater of Mothers losing their young children, then and only then do we realize that if people saw the truth they would never let WAR happen

 

[H_T_]

one of my favorite bands growing up was called "Fear". the leadman was a fella named Lee Ving. he was a nasty sonofabitch. was in that 80's movie "Dudes". but Fear had a song called "Let's start a war".....i fuccin' love that song. wish i could hear it now....

 

[jnevin]

Rwanda is still leading.

That's some brutal shit too. I saw an HBO special on it that seriously rattled me. Piles of limbs, piles of dead children that were hacked to death with machetes, just at the side of the road. Unbelievable.

 

[H_T_]

That's some brutal shit too. I saw an HBO special on it that seriously rattled me. Piles of limbs, piles of dead children that were hacked to death with machetes, just at the side of the road. Unbelievable.

machete deaths are teh grisly. slice you up like a kielbasa...`nother place that needs reeducation...

 

[perkele]

That's some brutal shit too. I saw an HBO special on it that seriously rattled me. Piles of limbs, piles of dead children that were hacked to death with machetes, just at the side of the road. Unbelievable.

Yeah, it doesn't get worse than that.

 

[jnevin]

one of my favorite bands growing up was called "Fear". the leadman was a fella named Lee Ving. he was a nasty sonofabitch. was in that 80's movie "Dudes". but Fear had a song called "Let's start a war".....i fuccin' love that song. wish i could hear it now....

Flea was in that band back in the day.

 

[Spartacus]

when I saw that footage in the movie theater of Mothers losing their young children, then and only then do we realize that if people saw the truth they would never let WAR happen

I'm a military history buff
but I'm a pacifist for the most part
I have dozens of first person view point books(they're my favorites)
and I'm a mortician and get death and crying daily

 

[H_T_]

Flea was in that band back in the day.

you sure? i miss named that song title, it's "let's have a war". and i know Flea was in the movie, he got killed by Lee in the beginning of it. lots of those guys switched bands often. Les Claypool auditioned for the bassist spot and lost out to Flea and then again to Jason Newstead after Cliff Burton died. he cried, he said....

 

[jnevin]

you sure? i miss named that song title, it's "let's have a war". and i know Flea was in the movie, he got killed by Lee in the beginning of it. lots of those guys switched bands often. Les Claypool auditioned for the bassist spot and lost out to Flea and then again to Jason Newstead after Cliff Burton died. he cried, he said....

I just had to google it to make sure, but yep. I was huge into the RHCP back in the day when Freaky Stylie and Uplift Mofo were out. I used to read every freaking article on them. The way young people do with groups they like. Or Lestat as an adult with Tool.

 

[OMEGA]

but I'm a pacifist for the most part

me too.

something happens when people are removed from the reality of the ground and let others "frame" or set the stage for a conflict.

This was why "smart bombs" worked cus not only is the military removed from the act, but it becomes an abstraction to an otherwise attentive public.

 

[chazk]

Since the "invasion" in Irak started in 2003.

How many is enough? one could ask himself

(btw, that number is Iraki nationals, add the dead troops to that)

A close friend returned from Iraq in 2005.he told me of a conflict where 300 iraqies has been killed .He then said within 5 hours the area was closed off and the usa sent in a bulldozer to push the bodies in a big hole and cover them up. It was his first 2 weeks in Iraq he was so disgusted he said he threw up later that night thinking about it.

He had talked to a few guys on second tours that were in iraq during the invasion.he talked with a bulldozer operator . The dozer driver told him that after the invasion with in 2 days the area was closed off and use troops came in the foul smell of death was so bad that alot of gi's almost went insane looking at the dead bodies everywhere .He claimed that giant pits were dug all over the desert and bodies were just scooped up in the front of the dozer bucket then dropped off in the pit.The dozer driver then said it was women ,children,babies,men,elderly just stacked up as far as the eye could see. It still gives him nightmares he said (our friend) becuase he knows the operator was not shitting around with him.

Then one thing even more shocking was this .He said the usa uncovered a bucnh of mass graves saddam had ordered . When he saw the location of the graves It was exactly where the dozer driver talked about covering people back in 2003.Makes me wonder if the usa is using some of its own grave yards then pointing at saddam.

I dont know but the whole situation makes me frown everytime i hear a story like this comming from a military person. I think he is going through "shell shock" .He was instructed to never talk about any iraqie operations to anyone never.But he told us all about it. I am keeping a closer eye on him and trying to keep in touch more becuase his drinking has doubled and he is acting strange.

 

[Spartacus]

one of my favorite bands growing up was called "Fear". the leadman was a fella named Lee Ving. he was a nasty sonofabitch. was in that 80's movie "Dudes". but Fear had a song called "Let's start a war".....i fuccin' love that song. wish i could hear it now....

didn't the red chili peppers feature him in their recent video?

 

[H_T_]

didn't the red chili peppers feature him in their recent video?

i Wiki'd him and he's been in a shitload of movies. like Clue, etc.

 

[jestro]

one of my favorite bands growing up was called "Fear". the leadman was a fella named Lee Ving. he was a nasty sonofabitch. was in that 80's movie "Dudes". but Fear had a song called "Let's start a war".....i fuccin' love that song. wish i could hear it now....

I've got more beer on vinyl. I saw Fear in boston around 97. Lee Ving was still kickin ass.
I think he was also in the movie "clue".

 

[gotmilk]

The dozer driver then said it was women, children, babies, men,elderly just stacked up as far as the eye could see.

The Iraqi military used thousands of civilians as human shields. We carpet bombed the major positions regardless. So yes, there are a huge number of civilian deaths. A lot of Iraqi military were wearing civilian clothes as a means to slip into the crowds. We plugged them regardless.

It was exactly where the dozer driver talked about covering people back in 2003.Makes me wonder if the usa is using some of its own grave yards then pointing at saddam.

Saddam created enough graveyards. We do not need to create extra stories just for shits and giggles.

 

[H_T_]

I've got more beer on vinyl. I saw Fear in boston around 97. Lee Ving was still kickin ass.
I think he was also in the movie "clue".

yup, lots of stuff. he had a great tough guy look. mean fucker. throwing kicks at the dykes in "Decline of the Western Civilization"...

 

[jnevin]

The Iraqi military used thousands of civilians as human shields. We carpet bombed the major positions regardless. So yes, there are a huge number of civilian deaths. A lot of Iraqi military were wearing civilian clothes as a means to slip into the crowds. We plugged them regardless.



Saddam created enough graveyards. We do not need to create extra stories just for shits and giggles.

I agree with you, but it almost wouldn't surprise me at this point.

 

[H_T_]

is 150,000 a lot? it's not a million. not even close. the Earth could afford to lose more. sorry. but it's not up to me, or you. Mongo only pawn in game of life.....

 

[gotmilk]

I agree with you, but it almost wouldn't surprise me at this point.

I'm sure we will confuse new with old mass graves. Most were probably not marked and we are only getting around to digging these back up.

We did the same thing in 1990-1991. Close to 150,000 Iraqi military were killed over a 5 day period from carpet bombing. They also were stuck in mass desert graves.

My dad's unit ambushed 30 afghani's dressed as civilians and these assholes had Al Queda info on them including Iranian bomb triggering components

 

[Spartacus]

A close friend returned from Iraq in 2005.he told me of a conflict where 300 iraqies has been killed .He then said within 5 hours the area was closed off and the usa sent in a bulldozer to push the bodies in a big hole and cover them up. It was his first 2 weeks in Iraq he was so disgusted he said he threw up later that night thinking about it.

He had talked to a few guys on second tours that were in iraq during the invasion.he talked with a bulldozer operator . The dozer driver told him that after the invasion with in 2 days the area was closed off and use troops came in the foul smell of death was so bad that alot of gi's almost went insane looking at the dead bodies everywhere .He claimed that giant pits were dug all over the desert and bodies were just scooped up in the front of the dozer bucket then dropped off in the pit.The dozer driver then said it was women ,children,babies,men,elderly just stacked up as far as the eye could see. It still gives him nightmares he said (our friend) becuase he knows the operator was not shitting around with him.

Then one thing even more shocking was this .He said the usa uncovered a bucnh of mass graves saddam had ordered . When he saw the location of the graves It was exactly where the dozer driver talked about covering people back in 2003.Makes me wonder if the usa is using some of its own grave yards then pointing at saddam.

I dont know but the whole situation makes me frown everytime i hear a story like this comming from a military person. I think he is going through "shell shock" .He was instructed to never talk about any iraqie operations to anyone never.But he told us all about it. I am keeping a closer eye on him and trying to keep in touch more becuase his drinking has doubled and he is acting strange.

I could tell the difference

 

[H_T_]

violence does stuff to you.

 

[jnevin]

violence does stuff to you.

It like, hurts.

 

[H_T_]

It like, hurts.

well, you could try and decide which is worse, partaking in it, being a victim, a casualty or witnessing it. i, personally would rather be lying there on an operating table, unzipped, than seeing a friend, family member, fellow soldier going thru it. waiting is the hardest part. your mind runs wild with possiblilities, and no one can give you enough assurance. it's fucking torture..

 

[jnevin]

well, you could try and decide which is worse, partaking in it, being a victim, a casualty or witnessing it. i, personally would rather be lying there on an operating table, unzipped, than seeing a friend, family member, fellow soldier going thru it. waiting is the hardest part. your mind runs wild with possiblilities, and no one can give you enough assurance. it's fucking torture..

I had a friend get shot when I was in high school. He ended up not making it, but he held on for almost two weeks. I swear, his whole family aged 5 years in those 2 weeks. It wasn't uncommon in w. Philly for shit like that to happen, but he was the only person I was still close to when he got hit.

 

[H_T_]

I had a friend get shot when I was in high school. He ended up not making it, but he held on for almost two weeks. I swear, his whole family aged 5 years in those 2 weeks. It wasn't uncommon in w. Philly for shit like that to happen, but he was the only person I was still close to when he got hit.

a mindfuck if there ever was one.

 

[Spartacus]

well, you could try and decide which is worse, partaking in it, being a victim, a casualty or witnessing it. i, personally would rather be lying there on an operating table, unzipped, than seeing a friend, family member, fellow soldier going thru it. waiting is the hardest part. your mind runs wild with possiblilities, and no one can give you enough assurance. it's fucking torture..

sort of why I don't date often
I'd rather be the broken heart

 

[Gambino]

pintoca i'm gonna have to respectablly call false on that number unless you can provide a link supporting that.
that number includes every killed between desert storm-present
including those killed by saddam

 

[jackangel]

respectablly indeed

 

[Razorguns]

might as wel be 15 million

the average brain dead cnn watcher doesn't give a shit about iraqi civilians. it's just 'collateral damage' for *their* freedom, forced upon.

lol @ how stupid our govt is.

 

[jnevin]

pintoca i'm gonna have to respectablly call false on that number unless you can provide a link supporting that.
that number includes every killed between desert storm-present
including those killed by saddam

You're starting to get wierd about this shit there, Jerseyart.

 

[Mr. dB]

Since the "invasion" in Irak started in 2003.

How many is enough? one could ask himself

(btw, that number is Iraki nationals, add the dead troops to that)

150,000 dead? How many are left then?

 

[Gambino]

You're starting to get wierd about this shit there, Jerseyart.

you've been gunning for me these last few days i've noticed
all good though
that number is inflated with those killed by saddam
doesn't seem fair to put 150,000 souls on the usa with not providing documentation ie a link
maybe it's too little of a detail for you, i dunno
but will admit i'm wrong if proven otherwise

 

[jnevin]

you've been gunning for me these last few days i've noticed
all good though
that number is inflated with those killed by saddam
doesn't seem fair to put 150,000 souls on the usa with not providing documentation ie a link
maybe it's too little of a detail for you, i dunno
but will admit i'm wrong if proven otherwise

You've just been on the defensive about anything political lately. No biggie, it's just getting jerseyartish.

I don't think the 150K is too far fetched.

 

[Gambino]

You've just been on the defensive about anything political lately. No biggie, it's just getting jerseyartish.

I don't think the 150K is too far fetched.

i'm a sore loser
and i'm right about this number
it includes all those killed between desert storm-the present
i just thought peeps should know that

 

[jnevin]

i'm a sore loser
and i'm right about this number
it includes all those killed between desert storm-the present
i just thought peeps should know that

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/08e4ce42-70dc-11db-8e0b-0000779e2340.html

 

[Gambino]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/08e4ce42-70dc-11db-8e0b-0000779e2340.html

did you even read that?
a lot of inconsistencies to say the least

"Most accounts based on a compilation of media reports estimate around 50,000 civilians killed, although that would exclude military and insurgent casualties, and unreported deaths.

On the other end of the scale, a statistical study published in The Lancet medical journal estimated based on survey data that between 393,000 and 943,000 Iraqis were likely to have died as a direct or indirect result of the invasion, although some have questioned how a figure so far in excess of other estimates could have been obtained."

either way, a fucked up situation
i pity the innocent dead

 

[jnevin]

did you even read that?
a lot of inconsistencies to say the least

"Most accounts based on a compilation of media reports estimate around 50,000 civilians killed, although that would exclude military and insurgent casualties, and unreported deaths.

On the other end of the scale, a statistical study published in The Lancet medical journal estimated based on survey data that between 393,000 and 943,000 Iraqis were likely to have died as a direct or indirect result of the invasion, although some have questioned how a figure so far in excess of other estimates could have been obtained."

either way, a fucked up situation
i pity the innocent dead

Yeah I read it. They're looking at 50K civillians, 30K Iraqi soldiers, plus more dying as a result of what's going on there but not combat related. Here's another. It's not like this is a good thing to be right about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq_casualties

 

[Gambino]

Yeah I read it. They're looking at 50K civillians, 30K Iraqi soldiers, plus more dying as a result of what's going on there but not combat related. Here's another. It's not like this is a good thing to be right about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq_casualties

i've read that before
"Regarding the Iraqis, however, information on both military and civilian casualties is both less accurate and less reliable, and given the political significance of these figures and the varied agendas of all parties, no source can be considered free of bias."

proly will never have a solid number.
and not that it makes that much of a difference, casuality numbers do include wounded

 

[jnevin]

i've read that before
"Regarding the Iraqis, however, information on both military and civilian casualties is both less accurate and less reliable, and given the political significance of these figures and the varied agendas of all parties, no source can be considered free of bias."

proly will never have a solid number.
and not that it makes that much of a difference, casuality numbers do include wounded

One study done by public health experts from Johns Hopkins University and published on 29 October 2004 in the Lancet medical journal, estimated that 100,000 "excess" Iraqi deaths from all causes had occurred since the US invasion began. The study did not attempt to measure how many of these were civilian, but the study's authors have said they believe that the "vast majority" were noncombatants, based on 7% of the casualties being women and 46% being children under the age of 15 (including Falluja data). To arrive at these excess death figures, a survey was taken from nearly 1000 Iraqi households in 33 clusters throughout Iraq, in which the residents were asked how many people lived there and how many births and deaths there had been since the war began. They then compared the death rate with the average from the 15 months before the war. Iraqis were found to be 1.5 times more likely to die from all causes after the invasion (rising from 0.5% to 0.79% per year) than in the 15 months preceding the war, producing an estimate of 98,000 [approximately 100,000] excess deaths. This figure excluded data from one cluster in Falluja, which was deemed too much of an outlier for inclusion in the national estimate. If including data from Falluja, which showed a higher rate of violent deaths than the other 32 clusters combined, the increased death rate would be raised from 1.5 to 2.5 fold, violent deaths would be 58 times more likely with most of them due to air-strikes by coalition forces, and an additional 200,000 fatalities would be estimated

 

[Lestat]

I just had to google it to make sure, but yep. I was huge into the RHCP back in the day when Freaky Stylie and Uplift Mofo were out. I used to read every freaking article on them. The way young people do with groups they like. Or Lestat as an adult with Tool.

haha yeah man for sure. I read everything I can on Tool. I generally know a bit about most bands I like.

So you are into old school RHCP? I got into them in 1992 when Blood Sugar Sex Magick came out. Love that entire album. The Navarro album wasn't my favorite, but every single album since then has been awesome in my opinion. I love their style, very balanced, technically strong but bursting with creativity.

I never could get into their older stuff, everyone raves about Mother's Milk, but I rarely listen to it.

I love them live. Saw them a couple months ago for the 3rd time. They are one of my top 5 bands to see live, possibly the #2 after Tool.

I think John Frusciante (not sure if that is spelled right) is amazing with his flow and style, and Flea is pretty much unmatched except for MAYBE Les Claypool.

 

[pintoca]

pintoca i'm gonna have to respectablly call false on that number unless you can provide a link supporting that.
that number includes every killed between desert storm-present
including those killed by saddam

sadly, the article I took the number from is in spanish. I can happily link it if you want.

and it was very clearly explained that the number is from the invasion start (2003) onwards

 

[mountain muscle]

Anyone have a link to the numbers dead under hussein's rule? Or did you just not care then?

 

[Cutiebaby]

Anyone have a link to the numbers dead under hussein's rule? Or did you just not care then?

wow

 

[Gambino]

Anyone have a link to the numbers dead under hussein's rule? Or did you just not care then?

damn

 

[jnevin]

Anyone have a link to the numbers dead under hussein's rule? Or did you just not care then?

I doubt those numbers would be accurate, but I bet it dwarfs the numbers posted here.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

Yeah, it doesn't get worse than that.

....I think you're forgetting about the HOLOCAUST.
No harm this time, but don't let it happen again.





_____________________________________________________________
Go Israel!!

 

[H_T_]

i have heard some stories from the folks that used to live there. just when you think you've heard it all.......

 

[Spartacus]

haha yeah man for sure. I read everything I can on Tool. I generally know a bit about most bands I like.

So you are into old school RHCP? I got into them in 1992 when Blood Sugar Sex Magick came out. Love that entire album. The Navarro album wasn't my favorite, but every single album since then has been awesome in my opinion. I love their style, very balanced, technically strong but bursting with creativity.

I never could get into their older stuff, everyone raves about Mother's Milk, but I rarely listen to it.

I love them live. Saw them a couple months ago for the 3rd time. They are one of my top 5 bands to see live, possibly the #2 after Tool.

I think John Frusciante (not sure if that is spelled right) is amazing with his flow and style, and Flea is pretty much unmatched except for MAYBE Les Claypool.

I remember seeing the chili peppers back in about 1984
little puck rock club
I could reach out and touch the band(I had been lifting for a couple years and me and a bro ruled the "pits",hence I was front row)
they had some dude playing some funky intrsument he wore on his body
I was thinkin'
these guys are good
same bar I got into a barfight with Bono back in '87

 

[test boy ii]

I'm a military history buff
but I'm a pacifist for the most partI have dozens of first person view point books(they're my favorites)
and I'm a mortician and get death and crying daily

I'm going to have to call you on that one. I try to read your posts for a few reasons. Your utter lack of fear of reprisal is one.

I thought you showed some unveiled enthusiasm when you said "I think we could run the table."

You are a hawks hawk bro.

 

[Spartacus]

I'm going to have to call you on that one. I try to read your posts for a few reasons. Your utter lack of fear of reprisal is one.

I thought you showed some unveiled enthusiasm when you said "I think we could run the table."

You are a hawks hawk bro.

interesting
my comment about "running the table" was sarcastic,but I believe we could
as for fearing reprisal from internets posts
like how?

 

[test boy ii]

interesting
my comment about "running the table" was sarcastic,but I believe we could
as for fearing reprisal from internets posts
like how?

You post like a "bull in a china shop."

We get a foreveryoung rampage every few weeks it seems. It seems you would like to personally fight with every lib on the board at times.

It is interesting.

If given the opportunity to run the table.....would you?

 

[test boy ii]

interesting
my comment about "running the table" was sarcastic,but I believe we could
as for fearing reprisal from internets posts
like how?

Maybe we could run the table. Could we hold it?

We got the technology for sure. Do we have the leadership...and the folks to back it up?

 

[Gambino]

Maybe we could run the table. Could we hold it?

We got the technology for sure. Do we have the leadership...and the folks to back it up?

by run the table, what exactly do you mean?
i take it to mean invade syra and iran full force balls out
could we do it?
yes, with super high civilian death
difficult but possible

could we hold it?
fuck no enthuisasm would wane after the first couple months and tens of thousands of us dead
leadership- i dunno
folks to back it up-yes, but we can't hold their attention for numerous years

 

[test boy ii]

by run the table, what exactly do you mean?
i take it to mean invade syra and iran full force balls out
could we do it?
yes, with super high civilian death
difficult but possible

could we hold it?
fuck no enthuisasm would wane after the first couple months and tens of thousands of us dead
leadership- i dunno
folks to back it up-yes, but we can't hold their attention for numerous years

I mean world domination. We say lay down or get put down. We would have to be uber pissed but noyone could stop us if we were willing to use most of our weapons.

I spent a little time evaluating the attachment of Venezuela, Cuba, N Korea, Iran and Iraq. Plus our lil military base in Europe....aka England

 

[p0ink]

more people died under saddam's rule than under the US'

 

[Gambino]

I mean world domination. We say lay down or get put down. We would have to be uber pissed but noyone could stop us if we were willing to use most of our weapons.

I spent a little time evaluating the attachment of Venezuela, Cuba, N Korea, Iran and Iraq. Plus our lil military base in Europe....aka England

so USA vs the world? lol maing, i think we would def get run over
if that were to happen we should lob a few canada's way, before we are obliterated. take them out with us

 

[jnevin]

China would knock us out. If Iran, Syria, and all those other fuggers over there joined forces, they'd do a job on us.

 

[Gambino]

China would knock us out. If Iran, Syria, and all those other fuggers over there joined forces, they'd do a job on us.

china has no military infastructure
no way to move troops
a shitty air force
only thing in their favor is massive manpower

 

[jnevin]

china has no military infastructure
no way to move troops
a shitty air force
only thing in their favor is massive manpower

They'd figure it out if they wanted to.

This whole Iran deal isn't good though, and with this new wave of badasses we have appointed, I can't wait to see how it's handled.

 

[bw1]

China would knock us out. If Iran, Syria, and all those other fuggers over there joined forces, they'd do a job on us.

NO FUCKING WAY.

 

[jnevin]

NO FUCKING WAY.

You don't think?

Why?

 

[bw1]

You don't think?

Why?

Beside supierior military force hands down. FREEDOM. We're free their not. Think about it. Why the hell do you think these "insurgents" are making a stand in Iraq? Could you imagine a free, democarcy in that region? That alone scares the hell out of Syria, Iran and China. What person doesn't want freedom?

 

[jnevin]

Beside supierior military force hands down. FREEDOM. We're free their not. Think about it. Why the hell do you think these "insurgents" are making a stand in Iraq? Could you imagine a free, democarcy in that region. That alone scares the hell out of Syria, Iran and China. What person doesn't want freedom?

Fear.

The insurgents are what's keeping us from getting out of there. It only takes one guy to take out 20-200 with a bomb. They target innocent civillians too, not soldiers as much. If you get the whole middle east involved, we'll be spread thinner than we already are, with a country that isn't behind this whole deal to begin with. What to do? Reenstate the draft? It's how we lost Vietnam.

 

[bw1]

Fear.

The insurgents are what's keeping us from getting out of there. It only takes one guy to take out 20-200 with a bomb. They target innocent civillians too, not soldiers as much. If you get the whole middle east involved, we'll be spread thinner than we already are, with a country that isn't behind this whole deal to begin with. What to do? Reenstate the draft? It's how we lost Vietnam.

Insurgents will get tired of dying. From their own admission there have been reports they are haveing trouble "recruiting". What's the reason, get sent of to die? I think your underestimating the WILL to be FREE. Iraq's voted in record #'s, what's your take on that? Sooner or later they'll get tired of being scared. Do you think they want us to leave? Every young Democracy has trouble getting started. I believe we did. But in a realativly short time (what a couple hundred years or so) we have become the worlds leader, the voice of freedom. If fear and suppression is so great why aren't these countires, (who have been around alot longer then us) leading the way?