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Memoria muscular si existe

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Llego la hora de acabar el blah blah blah con pruebas CIENTIFICAS, que es lo único que vale, después quiero que me pongas tus pruebas cientificas, aqui van los estudios, este primero con músculos DENERVADOS (sin nervios) en donde se demuestra que el músculo puede crecer bajo esas condiciones, y que el sistema nervioso no es el que juega el rol principal (de nuevo repito, no es que pienso que no juegue un rol, sino que NO es el principal, ya que ironbarbarian tiende a mal interpretar lo que digo):

Pflugers Arch 1999 Dec;439(1-2):52-5 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Passive stretch modulates denervation induced alterations in skeletal muscle myosin heavy chain mRNA levels.

Loughna PT, Morgan MJ.

Department of Veterinary Basic Sciences, The Royal Veterinary College, London University, UK. [email protected]

The effect of denervation and denervation combined with immobilisation in either the shortened or lengthened position (passive stretch) upon myosin heavy chain (MyHC) mRNA levels was examined in three rat hind-limb muscles with differing phenotypes. Denervation alone caused a reduction in type I and type IIa MyHC transcripts in all three muscles. In contrast denervation caused a 72% increase in type IIb in the slow postural soleus muscle only which was prevented by immobilisation in the lengthened position. In the same muscle passive stretch also significantly retarded the effects of denervation upon the type I transcript (from 38% below control levels to 24% below) and type IIa transcript (from 59% to 32% below control levels). The levels of both type I and IIa transcripts, in the fast phasic plantaris muscle, were both unaffected by stretch combined with denervation when compared to denervation alone. In the mixed gastrocnemius muscle stretch affected the level of the type I but not the type IIa transcript. These data suggest that passive stretch can modulate MyHC gene expression independently of innervation but that it does so in a muscle-specific manner.

PMID: 10651000 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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En este segundo estudio se habla también de músculos denervados:

Med Sci Sports 1975 Fall;7(3):185-98 Related Articles, Books

Mechanism of work-induced hypertrophy of skeletal muscle.

Goldberg AL, Etlinger JD, Goldspink DF, Jablecki C.

Skeletal muscle can undergo rapid growth in response to a sudden increase in work load. For example, the rat soleus muscle increases in weight by 40% within six days after the tendon of the synergistic gastrocnemius is sectioned. Such growth of the overworked muscle involves an enlargement of muscle fibers and occasional longitudinal splitting. Hypertrophy leads to greater maximal tension development, although decreased contraction time and reduced contractility have also been reported. Unlike normal developmental growth, work-induced hypertrophy can be induced in hypophysectomized or diabetic animals. This process thus appears independent of growth hormone and insulin as well as testosterone and thyroid hormones. Hypertrophy of the soleus can also be induced in fasting animals, in which there is a generalized muscle wasting. Thus muscular activity takes precedence over endocrine influences on muscle size. The increase in muscle weight reflects an increase in protein, especially sarcoplasmic protein, and results from greater protein synthesis and reduced protein breakdown. Within several hours after operation, the hypertrophying soleus shows more rapid uptake of certain amino acids and synthesis of phosphatidyl-inositol. By 8 hours, protein synthesis is enhanced. RNA synthesis also increases, and hypertrophy can be prevented with actinomycin D. Nuclear DNA synthesis also increases on the second day after operation and leads to a greater DNA content. The significance of the increased RNA and DNA synthesis is not clear, since most of it occurs in interstitial and satellite cells. The proliferation of the non-muscle cells seems linked to the growth of the muscle fibers; in addition, factors causing muscle atrophy (e.g. denervation) decrease DNA synthesis by such cells. In order to define more precisely the early events in hypertrophy, the effects of contractile activity were studied in rat muscles in vitro. Electrical stimulation enhanced active transport of certain amino acids within an hour, and the magnitude of this effect depended on the amount of contractile activity. Stimulation or passive stretch of the soleus or diaphragm also retarded protein degradation. Presumably these effects of mechanical activity contribute to the changes occuring during hypertrophy in vivo. However, under the same conditions, or even after more prolonged stimulation, no change in rates of protein synthesis was detected. These findings with passive tension in vitro are particularly interesting, since passive stretch has been reported to retard atrophy or to induce hypertrophy of denervated muscle in vivo. It is suggested that increased tension development (either passive or active) is the critical event in initiating compensatory growth.

PMID: 128681 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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En este tercer estudio, se demuestra que el estiramiento induce hipertrofia muscular:

Genomics 2001 Apr 1;73(1):38-49 Related Articles, Nucleotide, Protein, Books, LinkOut

Erratum in:

* Genomics 2001 Jun 1;74(2):251

[Click here to read]
Identification of Serhl, a new member of the serine hydrolase family induced by passive stretch of skeletal muscle in vivo.

Sadusky TJ, Kemp TJ, Simon M, Carey N, Coulton GR.

Molecular Pathology, Vascular Surgery, Division of Surgery and Anaesthetics, Imperial College of Science, Technology and Medicine, Sir Alexander Fleming Building, South Kensington, London, SW7 2AZ, UK.

In response to extended periods of stretch, skeletal muscle typically exhibits cell hypertrophy associated with sustained increases in mRNA and protein synthesis. Several soluble hypertrophic agonists have been identified, yet relatively little is known as to how mechanical load is converted into intracellular signals regulating gene expression or how increased cell size is maintained. In skeletal muscle, hypertrophy is generally regarded as a beneficial adaptive response to increased workload. In some cases, however, hypertrophy can be detrimental as seen in long-term cardiac hypertrophy. Skeletal muscle wasting (atrophy) is a feature of both inherited and acquired muscle disease and normal aging. Elucidating the molecular regulation of cell size is a fundamental step toward comprehending the complex molecular systems underlying muscle hypertrophy and atrophy. Subtractive hybridization between passively stretched and control murine skeletal muscle tissue identified an mRNA that undergoes increased expression in response to passive stretch. Encoded within the mRNA is an open reading frame of 311 amino acids containing a highly conserved type 1 peroxisomal targeting signal and a serine lipase active center. The sequence shows identity to a family of serine hydrolases and thus is named serine hydrolase-like (Serhl). The predicted three-dimensional structure displays a core alpha/beta-hydrolase fold and catalytic triad characteristic of several hydrolytic enzymes. Endogenous Serhl protein immunolocalizes to perinuclear vesicles as does Serhl-FLAG fusion protein transiently expressed in muscle cells in vitro. Overexpression of Serhl-FLAG has no effect on muscle cell phenotype in vitro. Serhl's expression patterns and its response to passive stretch suggest that it may play a role in normal peroxisome function and skeletal muscle growth in response to mechanical stimuli. Copyright 2001 Academic Press.

PMID: 11352564 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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En este cuarto estudio se demuestra como el estiramiento evita la pérdida muscular:

Acta Physiol Scand 2001 Jun;172(2):131-40 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
[Click here to read]
Regulation of synthesis of fibrillar collagens in rat skeletal muscle during immobilization in shortened and lengthened positions.

Ahtikoski AM, Koskinen SO, Virtanen P, Kovanen V, Takala TE.

Department of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyvaskyla, Jyvaskyla, Finland.

Immobilization has been shown to cause muscle atrophy and decreased total collagen synthesis in skeletal muscle. These changes can be counteracted by stretch. The purpose of this study was to find out the early effects of immobilization in shortened and lengthened positions on expression of type I and III collagen at pre- and post-translational level. The mRNA levels of type I and III collagen, prolyl 4-hydroxylase activity, total collagen concentration and the proportions of type I and III collagens were analysed in soleus (SOL), gastrocnemius (GM), extensor digitorum longus and tibialis anterior (TA) muscles during immobilization in shortened and lengthened positions for 1, 3 and 7 days. The mRNA levels for type I and III collagens decreased during 3-7 days in all muscles, except TA. In shortened GM and SOL, the mRNA level of type I collagen was lower than in the corresponding lengthened muscles. Prolyl 4-hydroxylase activity decreased in all muscles during 3-7 days. The activity in shortened GM was 30-37% lower than in the lengthened one during 3-7 days. Total collagen concentration and proportions of type I and III collagen showed no change during the 7-day immobilization period. The present study suggests that immobilization results in rapid down-regulation of total muscular collagen synthesis and that the timing and degree is roughly similar in type I and III collagens. Stretch seems to partially counteract these effects. Immobilization effect and the partially preventive effect of stretch on down-regulation of gene expression of prolyl 4-hydroxylase and fibrillar collagens during immobilization seems to be greater in weight-bearing SOL and GM than ankle joint dorsiflexors.

PMID: 11442453 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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En este quinto estudio se explica como el estiramiento induce los factores regulatorios del crecimiento:

J Muscle Res Cell Motil 1999 May;20(4):395-402 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Prolonged passive stretch of rat soleus muscle provokes an increase in the mRNA levels of the muscle regulatory factors distributed along the entire length of the fibers.

Zador E, Dux L, Wuytack F.

Inst. Biochem., Albert Szent-Gyorgyi Med. Univ., Szeged, Hungary. [email protected]

The mRNA levels of the adult and the neonatal sarcoplasmic/endoplasmic reticulum Ca(2+)-ATPases (SERCA1a and SERCA1b, respectively) and those of the muscle regulatory factors (MRFs: myoD, myf-5, myogenin, MRF4) have been assessed by RT PCR in rat soleus muscles immobilized for 3 days in an extended position (passive stretch). The transcript level of the fast type SERCA1a Ca(2+)-transport ATPase decreased to half of its normal value, whereas that of neonatal SERCA1b isoform increased 5-fold above control in stretched muscles. Immunostaining of muscle cross sections showed that the fraction of fibers expressing the SERCA1a protein was decreased evenly along the length of the stretched muscles indicating that a transformation occurred of fast fibers to slow ones. The mRNA levels of MRFs were elevated 3- to 6-fold above the normal level and were distributed evenly along the length of the stretched muscles. However in the controls these transcripts were more abundant at both ends of the muscle. The stretch increased the level of myoD and immunocytochemistry showed the expression of myoD protein in a number of nuclei of the stretched muscles whereas it was practically undetectable by this method in the control muscles. Western blotting did not indicate a significant stretch-induced increase in the level of the myogenin protein, in spite of the fact that immunocytochemistry tended to show more myogenin-positive nuclei in stretched muscles as compared to the controls. These data indicate that after 3 days of passive stretch the central and the terminal parts of the soleus muscle adapt similarly by increasing the levels of the MRFs, by decreasing the overall levels of the fast SERCA1-type of ATPase and by partially re-establishing a neonatal mode of alternative SERCA1 transcript splicing resulting in an increased SERCA1b/1a ratio.

PMID: 10531620 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Bueno, llego la hora de la camita :)

Saludos.
 
Goering said:
¿ Asi que mientras más peso muevo más masa muscular voy a lograr ? llevando esto a un extremo, entrena siempre y solamente con tu 1RM (el peso máximo que puedes levantar con una repetición) y verás que tan poca masa muscular vas a lograr.
Nó se está hablando de entrenamientos para Halterofilia Goering, ésto es fisiconstuctivismo. No te aferres tus conocimientos son buenos y clinicos (aún yo los repaso), pero nosotros tenemos más tiempo que tu en el GYM y tenemos MUCHA MAS EXPERIENCIA EN LEVANTAR PESO Y VER CUAL ES SU EFECTO y si estás más fuerte que otros de tu peso es por los 1,000mg de testosterona y otros de anabólicos que te metiste my friend. ANIMO!!!:D TE APOYO IRONBARBARIAN
 
Pájaro dice:
pero nosotros tenemos más tiempo que tu en el GYM y tenemos MUCHA MAS EXPERIENCIA EN LEVANTAR PESO Y VER CUAL ES SU EFECTO

¿ No crees que es un poco especulativo de tu parte decir eso cuando apenas me conoces (digo, si es que me conoces en algo, jejeje) ?

Bueno, pajarín, solo quise demostrar con ese ejemplo extremo que no necesariamente mayor peso levantado implica mayor masa muscular. Y con la halterofilia y/o el powerlifting (que son dos cosas distintas, pero parecidas sus estrategias de entrenamiento), solo quise poner un ejemplo de porque sin subir tanto de peso corporal (ya que los competidores se deben mantener en una categoría de peso corporal), se puede llegar a tener una fuerza inmensa (con lo cual se demuestra de nuevo que no necesariamente más fuerza implica más masa).

Solo quiero que esta discusión sea objetiva, por el bien de la ciencia, jejeje :)

Saludos.
 
Goering, ya no sabe que decir(Bullshit para Goering)

Ni si quiera sabes lo que estas posteando. Jajaja ya perdi mis respetos por ti. Eso que has posteado(y me tome el tiempo de leerlo) es buena informacion, pero NO TIENE nada contundente con la memoria muscular. Es mas eres tan sonso que ni siquiera leiste todos tus propios articulos ya que en varias oraciones se mencionan al aparato nervioso y como causa el stimulo que despues induce la hipertrofia.

"Electrical stimulation enhanced active transport of certain amino acids within an hour, and the magnitude of this effect depended on the amount of contractile activity. Stimulation or passive stretch of the soleus or diaphragm also retarded protein degradation. Presumably these effects of mechanical activity contribute to the changes occuring during hypertrophy in vivo."

otra cosa que me llamo fue como es que mensionan la TENSION. Y como crees que se consigue esta tension Goering? Por medio del aparato nervioso. Que paso, no te funciono muy bien el copy and paste de yahoo.com?

Claro que a cualquier ignorante de estos boards lo convenceras, pero No a mi. Porque yo leo este tipo de cosas TODOS LOS DIAS. A poco crees que presentandome unos articulos buenos(pero que no tienen nada que ver con la memoria muscular) me vas a hacer sentir mal?

Dime porque te alejas del tema principal? No corras conejo, no coras!!! Yo se que no tienes salvacion pero afronta el maldito tema principal.

Lo siento, prueba otra vez.
 
Mis articulos:

Son pocos pero si exponen mis puntos.

YO AL CONTRARIO, SI BUSCO EL TEMA PRINCIPAL: MUSCLE MEMORY. No te escondas Goering...aqui te espero con mi ciencia....Leelo TODO ya que yo me tome el tiempo de leer los tuyos.

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BioMechanical Muscle Stimulation

Theory

A Synergy Between Hand and Machine

Biomechanical Muscle Stimulation (BMS®) is a method of muscular regeneration and general health maintenance, which utilizes a rhythmic neuromuscular stimulation. It is being used with great success in sports training, muscle rehabilitation and in helping to correct cases of restricted body mobility.

The Theory of the Impact on the Central Nervous System
----A further possible influence of BMS® on the human organism is the stimulation of the receptors of the neuro-muscular system.

It is known that receptors, or sensors, exist in muscles, tendons and in the surrounding tissue. They correspond with the sensory nervous system. Any change in a muscle length produces a stimulation of the receptors, which process nerve impulses to the Central Nervous System (CNS). Mechano-receptors react to the smallest longitudinal change (10-11 um - the size of a hydrogen atom). Mechano-receptors are also called proprioceptors because they deliver kinesthetic information (awareness of position, movement and weight).

Changing the amplitude and frequency of a longitudinal muscle vibration, can strongly stimulate the mechano-receptors and therefore influence the CNS. The effect on the receptors does not depend as much on the strength of the stimulation as it does on its frequency (how fast the vibrations follow each other). The stimulation effect can be greatly effective in sports, rehabilitation and prevention.

Frequencies and amplitudes which are optimal for the stimulation of the mechano-receptors, are not necessarily within the parameters used to increase the blood circulation. A choice must be made to address one or the other function.

With BMS®, dominant movements, a sort of muscle-memory, can be built up in the neuro-muscular apparatus. When muscle obedience is lacking (for instance through illness, paralysis, muscle dystrophy, etc.) in the neuro-muscular apparatus, BMS® can be used to tone the muscles in order to develop muscle coordination and to learn certain movements and movement sequences. Muscles which are unable to activate themselves because of paralysis, stroke, spasm, etc. must be stretched and stimulated with outside help, for example by the hand of a physical trainer. During the BMS® training, the muscles warm up quickly; the sensitivity of the nerve endings increases; the impulses reach the Central Nervous System; and inactive structures slowly begin to be activated.-------------Dr.Rohrbacher


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Mas claro no se puede, como veras mi articulo SI explica como el sistema nervioso contribuye al la muscle memory. Tus articulos no dicen absolutamente nada de memoria muscular. Ya dijiste que el sistema nervioso juega un rol, pero no un gran papel haci que deja de estar repitiendo que no leo bien tus ideas porque ya las entendi. Mi deber es probarte que estas quivocado ya que el sistema nervioso es el PRIMER causante dela memoria muscular. Reconosco que mi articulo es de rehabilitacion, pero tiene mucho merito. Es facil de entender y se habla del muscle memory al contrario de tus articulos.

Tu tienes que empezar a seleccionar tus articulos de una manera mas profesional ya que el tema tratado no es solamente el estiramiento o el "bag" theory.

Haci que en un futuro, no me subestimes. I know my shit. Haci que ve y revisa tus notas otra vez y postea algo de mejor valor para lo que se esta hablando, Porque ahora TU paraces ser el que no lee bien las cosas.

Por ahora, me despido.

No tengo tiempo de seguir jugando con niños.
 
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¿ Disculpa ? ¿ eso es un estudio o un extracto de un libro ??? un estudio tiene en que departamento se hizo, y en que revista y página se publico, y por lo menos ALGO de la metodología que se uso.

Creo que ni siquieras tienes claro que es un estudio cientifico. Y acuerdate que, repitiendolo por enésima vez, yo no he dicho que el sistema nervioso no juegue un rol, sino que no es lo principal.

Saludos (aún espero tus "estudios" :) ).
 
Goering said:
Y acuerdate que, repitiendolo por enésima vez, yo no he dicho que el sistema nervioso no juegue un rol, sino que no es lo principal.

Y dale de necio, pues por millonesima vez: Ya se eso...Ya lo se! Lee mi post y veras que lo que trato de probar es que el sistema nervioso es el PRINCIPAL participante. Ya se que lo consideras un rol y no es eso por lo que peleo sino que considero que merita mas reconocimiento del que estas dando.

acerca del articulo......Claro Einstein que es un extracto de un libro. No eres tan ingenuo como pense. Sin embargo es el unico merito que te puedo dar. Otra vez se demuestra tu ignorancia y me inclino a pensar que ni si quiera as leido el articulo. Solo por que sea un libro no quiere decir que no tenga merito. A poco no estudias de libros? O no los lees? Que crees que es un invento de Richard Simmons?

Pero al contrario de lo que piensas, es un estudio muy bien hecho puesto en un articulo. Nunca as oido hacerca del Biomechanical Muscle Stimulation (BMS®) ? Ahhh Goering, si no sabes que es esto no tienes por que estar hablando. Ve y buscalo, te dejare tu metodologia de tarea. Es muy FACIL encontrar trabajos y experimentos hacerca de eso.

Pero en vez de concentrarte en cosas como si es un libro, o no, porque mejor no me explicas porque el La estimulacion Biomecanica en el musculo no es el factor principal de la MEMORIA muscular.(no te me alejes del tema)

Verdad que no puedes explicarlo? No puedes sabes por que?, Porque no sabes que es el BMS y es la primera vez que oyes hacerca de eso. Y sabes por que llegue a esta conclusion?

Por que que dijiste ingenuamente "donde estan los estudios" ya que como cientifico sabras que el BMS es apollado internacionalmente y no pense que necesitarias pruebas.

Vete, estudia el BMS y regresa.

saludos :) (mira hasta me estoy haciendo arrogante como tu)
 
Se me olvido...el BMS no es lo unico que explica la muscle-memory como resultado del sistema nervioso.

Reconosco que podria ser algo abstracto para alguien que no sabe mucho por lo tanto estoy al tanto que se te sera dificil encontrar mucha informacion a menos que estes en contacto con departamentos de ciencia deportiva. Tratare de buscar otras teorias., para que sigamos jugando. :)
 
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