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My DHEA-S results on Dermacrine

S

SuperOne

New member
Okay so my before and after DHEA-S results on Dermacine.


Before:

DHEA-S - 3.6 LOW Range 7.6-17.4


3 days after i finshed Dermacrine:

DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol - 224 HI Range Up To 206


Why the hell is my DHEA-S lower after i used Dermacrine? It lasted me 3 weeks.



My Estradiol is also sky high, which to be fair i suspect was still high since MAY when i quit Avodart ( for hair loss ), as my face is still puffy and bloated, and i dont think my DHT returned to normal yet. I got my DHT tested but the results arent back yet.

My bet is they are still abolished 5 months after quitting Avodart, otherwise my Estradiol wouldnt be so sky high for a lean 23 year old, and my face would be dry and chisled like it has always been my whole life.



I have an appointment to see an Endo in late November, but i was expecting Dermacrine to raise my DHEA-S levels and lower estrogen.
 
Yeah i know, i was hoping it would raise my DHEA-S levels to sky high.


Im seriously considering going on Letrozole, Proviron, and mabye even Winstrol - stanozolol to get my hormones the way they use to be before i started Avodart and get my dihydrotestosterone back up. I was always lean and ripped my whole life no matter what i did, and my face was always chisled and dry. Im still ripped and vascular but my facial bloat wont go away no matter what i do, what i try, what i eat,ect. I also feel a bit softer overall.


Hell last Novermber i quit Avodart and i totally returned to normal in 3-4 weeks. So why i havent returned to normal yet in over 5 months is boggling my mind and im getting REALLY fed up and pissed off already.
 
What you mean?


What i cant be honest and post the truth of my results?


I posted my results because i NEED SOME HELP. I need to get back to normal.


My Doctor told me not to take anything untill i see the Endo on Nov 30th, but thats over 1 month away and i cant stand to look in the mirror anymore, and dont want to have the estrogen levels of a woman floating around in me for any longer. But self medicating fucked me up in the first place, though Avodart was supposed to be FDA approved as safe.

To be honest i tried AIMF and Arimidex - anastrozole - and they didnt help either with my facial bloat either, so im guessnig my Estrogen still remained high.


I'll bet any money my dihydrotestosterone tests come back low.


Be VERY cautious with Avodart, its a stupidly powerfull drug.



I never had a single problem EVER in my 23 years before i touched Avodart. It MUST be the root of the problem.
 
I don't think that certain varieties of Arimidex are all that potent. I've never used AG-Guys, but I have a different brand that seems to be pretty weak. That could be your problem. However, AG-Guys Letrozole was powerful and definitely the shit.
 
If avodart is a hairloss drug it will probably have the same sides as propecia and minoxidil, etc. I took em for a couple months to keep the hair I have and it made me feel like a bitch. Fucked up depressing thoughts and softer overall appearence especially erections. I quit that shit as soon as the sides manifested and am happier ever since. My sex drive came back and I feel aggressive and strong again.

FOr me it is more important to feel like a man than a zombie w/ hair. I think I'll look pretty tough w/ a shaved head in 20 yrs.
 
artificialaspirations you hit the nail on the head with "zombie", i totally agree.


Lucky you bounced back, late last year i bounced back after i quit, but wanted to give it one last shot to see if i could beat the sides. Though for some reason this time i havent returned to normal yet.


Dutasteride takes some time to build up in your system, but i heard once it does it can take a LONG time to get out. But its been over 5 friggin months! I go on damn proviron and Winstrol - stanozolol if i have to.


Mabye the Dermacrine further lowered my dihydrotestosterone aswell, further hurting MY situation, in my case.


Topical anti-androgens are our best shot, if they dont get systematically absorbed.
 
3 days not much time.. bit its also a natural product so i would not expect too much sorry
 
Hmmm....

Could you post the complete blood tests?
Also The DHEA-S moved very slightly. How do you conclude that the .3 drop is a result of dermacrine usage?

SuperOne said:
Okay so my before and after DHEA-S results on Dermacine.


Before:

DHEA-S - 3.6 LOW Range 7.6-17.4


3 days after i finshed Dermacrine:

DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol - 224 HI Range Up To 206


Why the hell is my DHEA-S lower after i used Dermacrine? It lasted me 3 weeks.



My Estradiol is also sky high, which to be fair i suspect was still high since MAY when i quit Avodart ( for hair loss ), as my face is still puffy and bloated, and i dont think my dihydrotestosterone returned to normal yet. I got my dihydrotestosterone tested but the results arent back yet.

My bet is they are still abolished 5 months after quitting Avodart, otherwise my Estradiol wouldnt be so sky high for a lean 23 year old, and my face would be dry and chisled like it has always been my whole life.



I have an appointment to see an Endo in late November, but i was expecting Dermacrine to raise my DHEA-S levels and lower estrogen.
Click to expand...
 
do i have stories... just ask george. :) i was an elite mod for about 3 years i think.. seen it all and this still is a great board.
 
i spoke to him years ago so i would say he is real but not sure thats his real name though he called himself george. :)
 
Yes this was the complete test.


Im in Canada and im 23, so its hard to get all these blood tests as easily as you can in the U.S. It took me 2 friggin months or nagging to get him to test me. My Cortisol 24 hour Urine was withing normal range but high end normal.



My whole point is that Dermacrine didnt increase my DHEA-S and infact it was lower, and my estradiol was sky high.


I would like some answers.
 
I would agree that Dermacrine should have made a difference in the estrodial, but it seems as if you have a pre-existing condition which accounts for the high estrogen. Dermacrine was not intended to treat any condition/disease, so I just find it hard to make conclusions about dermacrine based on those numbers you posted
 
Bro im healthy as a horse, i have NO pre-existing condition. All other non hormonal blood work was perfectly fine and has always been.


My hormones are just out of whack, i agree Avodart skrewed my hormones up, and they havent rebalanced YET, but the Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA-S and lowered my Estradiol regardless. It probabbly did increase my testosterone too though. But i was specifically told it would increase my DHEA-S and was the reason i tried it.


Im willing to bet my estradoil was higher after Dermacrine because my pecks were itching me which they never did before. Also since the aromatize complex didnt work for me the DHEA probabbly converted more into estrogen.
 
Avodart / Dutasteride (which is a prescription drug) is a DHT blocker. It is possible dutasteride made more testosterone available for aromatase. So you use dermacrine to limit aromatase. But you also said that you have taken AIFM and Arimidex and still you have had elevated estrogen, correct?


SuperOne said:
Bro im healthy as a horse, i have NO pre-existing condition. All other non hormonal blood work was perfectly fine and has always been.


My hormones are just out of whack
Click to expand...
 
Avodart / Dutasteride is more potent at blocking 5ar reduction of testosterone then finasteride / propecia.

But the idea that Avodart significantly elevates estrogen is the part I'm having trouble with. I have never read any science anywhere that suggests a dutasteride or finasteride does so. Something is missing here


holy ghost said:
is avodart more effective than finasteridE?
Click to expand...
 
Yes Dutasteride definetly increase estradiol and testosterone by an average of 25% each, and im willing to bet more in some people, as it inhibits 95% of all dihydrotestosterone. So as a result testosterone and estradiol will greatly increase.


dihydrotestosterone itself is a estrogen antagoist, and regulates estrogen. Im sure you know all about the anti-estrogen effects of dihydrotestosterone.


http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dihydrotestosterone.htm



So i used AIMF to counter the raise in estrogen, but since all my DHT was abolished, im guessnig that i needed something like 2.5mg per day or Letro or something to lower estradiol. I tried AIMF and it didnt get rid of the water retention and facial bloat, and i tried Adex too which didnt work.


I also used some stims right after i quit Avodart to help get rid of the water and i think i stressed out my adrenals, contributing to the cause of my low DHEA-S levels.


Thats where i was hoping and was told Dermacrine would fix the DHEA-S problem.


I didnt use Dermacrine untill about 5 weeks ago, and i havent touched Avodart in over 5 months. Ive read that Avodart has a very long half life once it builds up in your system over time, and it has been reported that DHT levels can remain low for 6-12 months after quitting.


Im not trying to bag on the product, but im just being honest and need some help aswell.


Thanks.
 
Last edited:
Ok , Misread this post.
Yes lowering DHT can cause elevations in estrogen and progesterone
I'm in agreement there



SuperOne said:
Yes Dutasteride definetly increase estradiol and testosterone by an average of 25% each, and im willing to bet more in some people, as it inhibits nearly 95% of all dihydrotestosterone. So as a result testosterone and estradiol will greatly increase.


dihydrotestosterone itself is a estrogen antagoist, and regulates estrogen. Im sure you know all about the anti-estrogen effects of dihydrotestosterone.


http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dihydrotestosterone.htm



So i used AIMF to counter the raise in estrogen, but since all my DHT was abolished, im guessnig that i needed something like 2.5mg per day or Letro or something to lower estradiol. I tried AIMF and it didnt get rid of the water retention and facial bloat, and i tried Adex too which didnt work.


I also used some stims right after i quit Avodart to help get rid of the water and i think i stressed out my adrenals, contributing to the cause of my low DHEA-S levels.


Thats where i was hoping and was told Dermacrine would fix the DHEA-S problem.


I didnt use Dermacrine untill about 5 weeks ago, and i havent touched Avodart in over 5 months. Ive read that Avodart has a very long half life once it builds up in your system over time, and it has been reported that DHT levels can remain low for 6-12 months after quitting.


Im not trying to bag on the product, but im just being honest and need some help aswell.


Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
Scary 2 months to get blood work. That is where we are heading Socialized medicine thank you Hitlerey. Just ask yourself what does the govnerment do right?

I have been on HRT for about 2 years. 400mg a week. Using some Dex then switching to very small amont of letrozole to combat estrogen. All so starting out with small amont of finasteride and didn't notice but a very small difference in sex drive. So switched to dutasteride because it was supposed to not have any sexual side effects and be a lot better. Now I am still loosing my hair and sex drive SUCKS.
So I bought some Dermacrine to see if it will straightened hormones out. the only thing I notise is that More energy More appetite but more hairloss and worse sex drive. I think I might go back to finasteride and try some HCG for the sex drive. Is there anything for hairloss that works? Without the sides
 
st8grad said:
I don't think that certain varieties of Arimidex are all that potent. I've never used AG-Guys, but I have a different brand that seems to be pretty weak. That could be your problem. However, AG-Guys Letrozole was powerful and definitely the shit.
Click to expand...

for real, i took some of their letrozole and shed water in a day or two. you'd want to only take a little of this stuff as it is waay strong.my lifting partner was putting on water, he started taking it, a couple of days later he started feeling like shit, he was losin water, but he had taken too much. i mean, dude, a bottle of that shit would last for several cycles LOL hell, that'd probably knock it out for sure.
 
Well the thing is by body is NEVER like this, im always naturally dry and my face is thin.


Ive always been naturally ripped and pretty muscular. People ask if i train,ect.


I mean im about 9% bodyfat mabye 8.


But Dutasteride made my face puffy and round like a womans, and aimf and arimidex didnt help. Im holding around 5 - 8 pounds of water.


Im guessing some people just need dihydrotestosterone in their body to not bloat up, that or mabye i needed something like Letrozole to work to lower my estrogen, as 95% of my dihydrotestosterone was being inhibited on Dutasteride. dihydrotestosterone is a estrogen antagonist, and it has been shown to lower Estradiol in studies.



I got my dihydrotestosterone tested but waiting for those results form the lab.



But i just want my body to go back to normal already. I think i may have to kick start it with a small light cycle, which ive never done before.


Mabye low dose test with proviron and Femera - letrozole - , and continue on the proviron for a while.


If my test and dihydrotestosterone were at normal levels, then my estradiol wouldnt be high. I dont think my test is low because i just started training on and off recently and my arms already grew a bit and have gotton more comments recently, and i get vascular as shit when i lift heavy, eat carbs, my blood gets going,ect. I'll get a bioavailable testosterone test done probabbly next week just to check.


But was told that Dermacrine can help with hairloss, so in order for it to do that, it must block DHT to some extent in some people.
 
Bump for PP, i would like to know why Dermacrine didnt raise my DHEA-S levels, and why they were actually a bit lower after, and why my estradiol was increased, and not decreased.


I got my DHT tested at the same time but they had to send the tests to another lab for results, so will post the results when they come back. But regardless there is no reason for my estradiol to be that high, i doubt my DHT was still abolished over 5 months after stopping Avodart.

My nipples did get itchy here and there aswell.



Doesnt Dermacrine increase pregnenolone which converts to progesterone, which lowers DHT?
 
gslben said:
Oh nooooo you can't say that on this board...
Click to expand...
sure he can there is no problem with what he is saying non at all.


now lets keep in mind you are a big time macro and ulter fan first of just by looking at all the threads you have made to them seen here http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2305120

also how you are on there board talking shit about this board..but any way lets talk about the problem at hand


looking at all the thread you have made over time..http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2305120

it seems you have a real problem with estro..you have made about 30 threads and 95% of them have all bin about trying to fight this estro problem you have...

you also made post saying you have a very big adrenal fatigue problem along with a host of other problems I have seen you post and say you have...


hay dermacrine is great stuff but some times the problem is bigger then dermacrine can help with...

now I am not calling you a lire bro I mean any one that is friends with ulter would never lie but I would have loved to see a screen shot or a real photto of your test results something more like the one I got here.

97vhuo.jpg








now as you can see I also had low test and high estro as well as a not so impressive dhea level.but after just 2 weeks of dermacrine reg not even 3 my test doubled my estro was lowered and my dhea was threw the roof...


it would seem you just have a bigger problem on your hands dermacrine is some dame good stuff but its not a miracle worker ether :)

hope that helped every one.
 
gslben said:
Holy Shit !?!?
Click to expand...

Ha! I about fell off my chair when I read that! 400mg/wk prescribed....must be nice to have a doc that hasn't been pussified.

Um, is he taking new patients? :)
 
SuperOne said:
Bro im healthy as a horse, i have NO pre-existing condition. All other non hormonal blood work was perfectly fine and has always been.


My hormones are just out of whack, i agree Avodart skrewed my hormones up, and they havent rebalanced YET, but the Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA-S and lowered my Estradiol regardless. It probabbly did increase my testosterone too though. But i was specifically told it would increase my DHEA-S and was the reason i tried it.


Im willing to bet my estradoil was higher after Dermacrine because my pecks were itching me which they never did before. Also since the aromatize complex didnt work for me the DHEA probabbly converted more into estrogen.
Click to expand...
you say in this post you are as healthy but in other post you say you are suffering from adrenal fatigue and 95% of all your threads are about this problem or that problem you are having with estro and or other things...

yes I would also say that since you are all fucked up the dhea went more to estro for you then test in most normal males that is not the case...even in cases like mine where I had low test and high estro it still did the trick for me. :)
 
needtogetass, give me a break dude, seriously.


FIRST OF ALL, i am not fan of anybody or anything. I have a life other than internet chat boards, i couldnt really give a flying fuck about any of this internet shit, i came here in the first place looking for some answers.


Ulter and Macro have helped me out answering questions,ect, Just like Eric ( PP ) has thats its. And what the hell do those guys have to do with my situation anyways? I bought AIMF and some other shit from them, just as i bought Erics WHOLE line of products. You are sounding like a little imature kid.



SECOND OF ALL, i NEVER had an estro problem EVER. I was using Dutasteride for hairloss and decided to use AIMF to protect from any possible estrogen increase. I obviously didnt have that much of an estrogen problem while i was on Dutasteride and AIMF, because my nipples never itched and i wasnt growing boobs.


Now the ONLY problem i had taking Dutasteride was my face was getting puffy, and AIMF and Arimidex didnt help it. But my nipples NEVER itched. So it must have been either not powerfull enough to get rid of the bloat, or simply because i reduced almost all my dihydrotestosterone in the body, that i had some bloat. And it wasnt MAJOR bloat, but it was enough to bother me.


Or the bloat could have been to increased androgens, which can cause bloat aswell.


THATS why i was posting on these boards, trying to figure out how to get rid of my facial bloat that i had on Dutasteride, as you can see.


So i quit Dutasteride in MAY and at the same time i used some stims to see if they would help, and i ended up getting bad anxiety and jitters, and when i stopped taking them i crashed, and felt like shit.


So i got my DHEA-S levels tested they came back low, and that coincided with me feeling like crap from the Dutasteride and stimulants. I SUSPECTED that i had adrenal fatigue because of the stimulants, but im not a Doctor. I got other tests done and im as HEALTHY as a horse, just because my DHEA-S levels came back low doesnt mean im not healthy. Im lean and ripped with a nice body and ive always been my whole life, and ive never dieted or even trained. My bodyfat is 8-9%. Everything that matters from a health standpoint was perfectly fine.



So YOU and Eric told me that Dermacrine would raise my DHEA-S levels, so i spent my money on it.


My Doctor tested my DHEA-S levels before, and told me to come back in 3-4 weeks to test it again.


So the Dermacrine lasted me 3 weeks and mabye 1 day, and i went for bloodwork 3 or 4 days after.


My DHEA-S came back even LOWER and my Doc tested my Estradiol which came back high. He also tested my dihydrotestosterone and will report what my levels was when i get the results.



REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING, Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA and Lowered my Estradiol. Which YOU claim on here everyday.



Im not fucked up bro, even if my dihydrotestosterone is still low from the Dutasteride, which i will find out and report back, Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA-S and lowered my Estradiol regardless.



There are absolutely no exuses for this.


Eric himself knows why i wanted to use Dermacrine, to raise my DHEA-S levels.


And he knows i have no agenda either, im fucking 23 years old and i have a life outside of these forums, i dont post here for fun and to chat i post here when i need something. Same thing with the AF board. You can see that for yourself aswell as anybody else.



And well of course it worked for you, you work for Eric and post on here everyday pushing this product, so why would you say anything bad about it?


And its funny how you said that those are your blood test results on the Dermacrine website, which says a 31 year old man, when we know you are not 31, your like 27 or something you said in another thread.



Im not calling Dermacrine a shit product, but you need a more powerfull aromatize inhibitor, because depending on the persons GENETICS the DHEA can be converted into estrogen possibly more than the Testosterone. Also the Pregnenalone converts to Progesterone, which can lower dihydrotestosterone. I also got some itchy nips here and there when taking Dermacrine, and im not the only one who has reported that.


If YOU have no agenda then you will leave this thread open for discussion.


You can give me your number i can call you on the phone aswell if you want to discuss it. I can fax you my blood work.


I want some answers from Eric not you, you dont know what your talking about.
 
SuperOne said:
Bump for PP, i would like to know why Dermacrine didnt raise my DHEA-S levels, and why they were actually a bit lower after, and why my estradiol was increased, and not decreased.


I got my dihydrotestosterone tested at the same time but they had to send the tests to another lab for results, so will post the results when they come back. But regardless there is no reason for my estradiol to be that high, i doubt my DHT was still abolished over 5 months after stopping Avodart.

My nipples did get itchy here and there aswell.



Doesnt Dermacrine increase pregnenolone which converts to progesterone, which lowers DHT?
Click to expand...

Superone,

We have no problem with the honest review of our products as per the comment made earlier.

Let me get a couple things strait... You used Dermacrine for 3 weeks at 5 pumps everyday and then got blood tested 3 days after quiting the Dermacrine? Were you using anything else during this time?

Most importantly, why did you test 3 days after using the Dermacrine? This is the exact time I tell people NOT to test hormone levels as you will get the lowest results during this period because of hormonal rebound. (Dermacrine clears very fast) You either test while your ON dermacrine, or at least 2-3 weeks after Dermacrine to let your body adjust.

Dermacrine significantly raises DHEA, that has been established over and over in our blood and saliva testing. This was just a result of bad timing. Id like to get some more info to try and figure the E2 results...

-Pp
 
SuperOne said:
And its funny how you said that those are your blood test results on the Dermacrine website, which says a 31 year old man, when we know you are not 31, your like 27 or something you said in another thread.
Click to expand...

BTW, those results needto showed are legit. The results you see on our site are from other guys who tested the product. We never posted needto's results on our website.

-Pp
 
SuperOne said:
My DHEA-S came back even LOWER and my Doc tested my Estradiol which came back high. He also tested my dihydrotestosterone and will report what my levels was when i get the results.

REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING, Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA and Lowered my Estradiol. Which YOU claim on here everyday.
Click to expand...


I don’t see any “before” E2 values… do you have any results for your E2 before you started Dermacrine?

-Pp
 
I'm still interested in any other meds you may have been taking. If what you're saying is true , then dihydrotestosterone has an extremely strong antagonizing effect on estrogen in yourself. The fact that aromatase inhibitor's did not did not lower estrogen back to normal also is also puzzling

Yes dutasteride can knock out some 90% of DHT in some people. But you say you got off dutasteride in MAY and yet here in October , your estrogen is still above normal. What dosage of dutasteride were you taking? Generally you should only take 1 tablet a day and taking more then that does not block any extra DHT

You're not taking any test injections with this are you?
*edit*
One thing that does come to mind is deca usage. Deca can convert to estrogen and AI's won't help. This would definitly skew your test results
*edit*
Anyway, we still seem to be missing some information at this point from what I can tell. As far as Dermacrine , PP said that the product clears quickly and I am glad that is clear.

SuperOne said:
Im guessing some people just need dihydrotestosterone in their body to not bloat up, thBut Dutasteride made my face puffy and round like a womans, and aimf and arimidex didnt help. Im holding around 5 - 8 pounds of water.at or mabye i needed something like Letrozole to work to lower my estrogen, as 95% of my dihydrotestosterone was being inhibited on Dutasteride. dihydrotestosterone is a estrogen antagonist, and it has been shown to lower Estradiol in studies.



I got my dihydrotestosterone tested but waiting for those results form the lab.
Click to expand...
 
gjohnson5 said:
I'm still interested in any other meds you may have been taking. If what you're saying is true , then dihydrotestosterone has an extremely strong antagonizing effect on estrogen in yourself. The fact that aromatase inhibitor's did not did not lower estrogen back to normal also is also puzzling

Yes dutasteride can knock out some 90% of DHT in some people. But you say you got off dutasteride in MAY and yet here in October , your estrogen is still above normal. What dosage of dutasteride were you taking? Generally you should only take 1 tablet a day and taking more then that does not block any extra DHT

You're not taking any test injections with this are you?


Anyway, we still seem to be missing some information at this point from what I can tell. As far as Dermacrine , PP said that the product clears quickly and I am glad that is clear.
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Here is my hypothesis on the estrogen/bloat issue –

The 5-alpha reductase inhibitors reduced his DHT so much that estrogen was allowed to run rampant, increase fat tissue, and consequently increase aromatase tissue. DHT keeps estro in control, and when you remove DHT from the system, estrogen is allowed to pack-on all the fat tissue and subcutaneous water it possibly can. (Explaining the bloat)

Since estrogen has dominated his system for so long he has excessive aromatase (fatty) tissue in his body. The only way to counter this would be to supplement with high amounts of DHT. Of course, this would not help his hair loss condition.

-Pp
 
I agree. Dutasteride is very potent.
And yes , if estrogen is allowed to rise , he would have to take steps to reverse the estrogen dominance and remain on that until a a blood test verifies that the estrogen dominance is infact fixed.

I agree that a hypothesis would be to go to bb.com and try one of the OTC dihydrotestosterone supplements such as the Superdol clones and see if that fixes it.

It's really hard to say because his tests don't really have enough variables. I would like to see his testosterone levels at both points. Progesterone would be helpful too just incase steroid use.

I need to check the half life of dutasteride. Blood donors tell you to not donate blood for some 3 months after getting off dutasteride because dutasteride is harmful to females.

*edit
acutally it's 6 months
*edit*

But yes at this point all we have to do on is that dihydrotestosterone is being blocked by dutasteride which was discontinued in MAY and is still blocking DHT formation some 5 months later. It's not impossible , just wierd...


Primordial Performance said:
Here is my hypothesis on the estrogen/bloat issue –

The 5-alpha reductase inhibitors reduced his dihydrotestosterone so much that estrogen was allowed to run rampant, increase fat tissue, and consequently increase aromatase tissue. DHT keeps estro in control, and when you remove DHT from the system, estrogen is allowed to pack-on all the fat tissue and subcutaneous water it possibly can. (Explaining the bloat)

Since estrogen has dominated his system for so long he has excessive aromatase (fatty) tissue in his body. The only way to counter this would be to supplement with high amounts of DHT. Of course, this would not help his hair loss condition.

-Pp
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SuperOne said:
What you mean?


What i cant be honest and post the truth of my results?


I posted my results because i NEED SOME HELP. I need to get back to normal.


My Doctor told me not to take anything untill i see the Endo on Nov 30th, but thats over 1 month away and i cant stand to look in the mirror anymore, and dont want to have the estrogen levels of a woman floating around in me for any longer. But self medicating fucked me up in the first place, though Avodart was supposed to be FDA approved as safe.

To be honest i tried AIMF and Arimidex - anastrozole - and they didnt help either with my facial bloat either, so im guessnig my Estrogen still remained high.


I'll bet any money my dihydrotestosterone tests come back low.


Be VERY cautious with Avodart, its a stupidly powerfull drug.



I never had a single problem EVER in my 23 years before i touched Avodart. It MUST be the root of the problem.
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I think it is AWESOME you got blood work done after using that stuff. TOO MANY people use stuff and have NO IDEA what it is doing to them internally.

Also, you do need to watch out what you say here because I had an honest post on Myogenx and it got deleted. Some people here don't like the truth.
 
justin you are good bro but youre alwys up to somethin! you strike me as an investigative journalist, ever thought of persuing that?
 
justinjones1963 said:
I think it is AWESOME you got blood work done after using that stuff. TOO MANY people use stuff and have NO IDEA what it is doing to them internally.

Also, you do need to watch out what you say here because I had an honest post on Myogenx and it got deleted. Some people here don't like the truth.
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well as you cans se there are no post going any where in this thread... :)
 
SuperOne said:
needtogetass, give me a break dude, seriously.


FIRST OF ALL, i am not fan of anybody or anything. I have a life other than internet chat boards, i couldnt really give a flying fuck about any of this internet shit, i came here in the first place looking for some answers.


Ulter and Macro have helped me out answering questions,ect, Just like Eric ( PP ) has thats its. And what the hell do those guys have to do with my situation anyways? I bought AIMF and some other shit from them, just as i bought Erics WHOLE line of products. You are sounding like a little imature kid.



SECOND OF ALL, i NEVER had an estro problem EVER. I was using Dutasteride for hairloss and decided to use AIMF to protect from any possible estrogen increase. I obviously didnt have that much of an estrogen problem while i was on Dutasteride and AIMF, because my nipples never itched and i wasnt growing boobs.


Now the ONLY problem i had taking Dutasteride was my face was getting puffy, and AIMF and Arimidex didnt help it. But my nipples NEVER itched. So it must have been either not powerfull enough to get rid of the bloat, or simply because i reduced almost all my dihydrotestosterone in the body, that i had some bloat. And it wasnt MAJOR bloat, but it was enough to bother me.


Or the bloat could have been to increased androgens, which can cause bloat aswell.


THATS why i was posting on these boards, trying to figure out how to get rid of my facial bloat that i had on Dutasteride, as you can see.


So i quit Dutasteride in MAY and at the same time i used some stims to see if they would help, and i ended up getting bad anxiety and jitters, and when i stopped taking them i crashed, and felt like shit.


So i got my DHEA-S levels tested they came back low, and that coincided with me feeling like crap from the Dutasteride and stimulants. I SUSPECTED that i had adrenal fatigue because of the stimulants, but im not a Doctor. I got other tests done and im as HEALTHY as a horse, just because my DHEA-S levels came back low doesnt mean im not healthy. Im lean and ripped with a nice body and ive always been my whole life, and ive never dieted or even trained. My bodyfat is 8-9%. Everything that matters from a health standpoint was perfectly fine.



So YOU and Eric told me that Dermacrine would raise my DHEA-S levels, so i spent my money on it.


My Doctor tested my DHEA-S levels before, and told me to come back in 3-4 weeks to test it again.


So the Dermacrine lasted me 3 weeks and mabye 1 day, and i went for bloodwork 3 or 4 days after.


My DHEA-S came back even LOWER and my Doc tested my Estradiol which came back high. He also tested my dihydrotestosterone and will report what my levels was when i get the results.



REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING, Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA and Lowered my Estradiol. Which YOU claim on here everyday.



Im not fucked up bro, even if my dihydrotestosterone is still low from the Dutasteride, which i will find out and report back, Dermacrine should have raised my DHEA-S and lowered my Estradiol regardless.



There are absolutely no exuses for this.


Eric himself knows why i wanted to use Dermacrine, to raise my DHEA-S levels.


And he knows i have no agenda either, im fucking 23 years old and i have a life outside of these forums, i dont post here for fun and to chat i post here when i need something. Same thing with the AF board. You can see that for yourself aswell as anybody else.



And well of course it worked for you, you work for Eric and post on here everyday pushing this product, so why would you say anything bad about it?


And its funny how you said that those are your blood test results on the Dermacrine website, which says a 31 year old man, when we know you are not 31, your like 27 or something you said in another thread.



Im not calling Dermacrine a shit product, but you need a more powerfull aromatize inhibitor, because depending on the persons GENETICS the DHEA can be converted into estrogen possibly more than the Testosterone. Also the Pregnenalone converts to Progesterone, which can lower dihydrotestosterone. I also got some itchy nips here and there when taking Dermacrine, and im not the only one who has reported that.


If YOU have no agenda then you will leave this thread open for discussion.


You can give me your number i can call you on the phone aswell if you want to discuss it. I can fax you my blood work.


I want some answers from Eric not you, you dont know what your talking about.
Click to expand...
dont really have to say any thing.all I have to do is post this all day....

97vhuo.jpg


real copy of a real test...works for me. :)
 
Hi Eric and gjohnson5, thanks for your replies, i appreciate the help.


I'll give you the exact details.


I used 5 pumps per day of Dermacrine, though the pumps came out pretty big. It lasted about 3 weeks and a day or so? And i did a double dose some where in the middle just to see how i felt and to possibly kick start my DHEA. I think the last day i did like 6-7 pumps just because there was no more left, and didnt want to do 1-2 pumps only the next day.


Then i started Sustain for 2-3 days and saw my Doctor. He ordered the tests, so i didnt use Sustain the morning of the test. Im pretty sure that i didnt use Sustain the day before either but i dont remember. I havent used the Sustain since as i want my system totally clear of everything untill i see the endo.



I wasnt taking anything else at the time. Im not on any other meds and never have been, except for the Dutasteride which i quit May 8th i beleive. I was on and off Dutasteride for a year, but i never took more than 1 pill a day, for longer than 1 month straight every day. I usually took a day or 2-3 off. My dosing wasnt consistant, but i never took more than 2 weeks off. The only time i took more than that off, was in November 06. I continued using AIMF and after about 25 days i finally got rid of all the water, and all the sides were gone. I used like 3 pumps of AIMF on my feet the night before along with some cherry stem caps ( diuretic ), woke up in the middle of the night sweating, took a piss. Then when i got up my face was lean again. I was so happy, but my hair looked crappier.


Then i tried using Dutasteride again a week later to see if i could be the sides, but i couldnt. I tried everything in the meantime to beat the water retention in my face, and it wouldnt work. I just put up with it, but there's only so much i could take. My stress tolerance was absolutely horrible on Dutasteride, i would flip out at the littlest things. So im May i quit. I did try 5mg of Proscar for a couple days in late June i beleive, but it made me feel like total shit so i stopped.



I didnt get my E2 tested before Dermacrine cause my Doctor wouldnt do it.


Im not saying that Dermacrine raised my Estradiol, i just dont see why it would be so high, and it certainly didnt lower it. I had the odd nipple itch here and there more around when i first started it, but thats it really.


I can get my DHEA-S levels checked again before i see the Endo in late November, and post my results. If they are higher than the Dermacrine helped so i apologize. But i dont think i wasnt informed on how long it would take for my DHEA-S to go up after i stopped the Dermacrine. But at the least it didnt lower my Estradiol, and i suspect it possibly elevated it, because of the DHEA conversion, but i cant say forsure.



I have never done anabolic androgenic steroids before, as im prone to losing hair.


Now i dont know if AIMF or Arimidex - anastrozole - didnt lower my estrogen, because while on Dutasteride i didnt get any itchy nips, but i had some fatigue and my face was more puffy then usual. I only used Adex for a week or so, and it didnt do what i was hoping, plus i looked a lot more vascular on AIMF. Mabye i was bloating because of the extra test, but i suspect my estrogen wasnt lowered enough with AIMF or Adex, or that i simply need DHT in my system to not bloat. Mabye when my hormones are out of balance i bloat.


I basically looked like a bloated bodybuilder on steroids almost. Dutasteride and AIMF did raise my test i suspect because i was growing off only a few heavy workouts, and i really wasnt doing anything but lifting heavy shit at my work. My forams looked like popeye. I did look more swole on Dermacrine aswell. I dont doubt that it raised my test levels, because if it didnt, my estadiol wouldnt have been high. I also suspect that my dihydrotestosterone was low, otherwise my estradiol would have been lower right?



Dutasteride has a halflife on 3 months i beleive, once the drug has built up in your system. The longer you are on it the more it builds up in your body. I beleive blood donors say dont give blood untill 6 months after Dutasteride use.


I have read that DHT levels have been low for over a year in some cases, after quitting Dutasteride. I can re-dig that info up. For people on Dutasteride for a year consistantly, it took about 6 months for everything to return to normal, 24 weeks. Though it can remain in tissues for longer.



I dont know why the hell my body hasnt bounced back yet, its starting to really piss me off.


Im thinking mabye my body is used to the way Dutasteride effected my hormones, that it wants to stay like that.


Im thinking mabye i have to use some Proviron, Femera - letrozole - , and low dose test at 200mg per week or something. I have no clue what to do really. Even though it will effect my hair, i think i would take my chances and use a topical anti-androgen.


I will no more when my DHT results come back.


Shitty situation.
 
Superone,k

The estrogen issue is hard to comment on because you don’t have any pre-values… so there really is no way to say how Dermacrine affected your E2. I can tell you that we’ve never seen E2 increase like that with Dermacrine. Perhaps your E2 was excessively high to begin with.

Of course, E2 will increase proportionately with Testosterone, so if Dermacrine did raise your E2 it surely raised your testosterone above a normal physiological level. But again, without having results on this (and testing 4 days after using Dermacrine) you can’t really pin point what effect Derma had on your hormone levels.

I guarantee that if you tested your DHEA-S during your Dermacrine use your levels would have been far over normal values.

-Pp
 
hes RIGHT how can you base that when you dont have a prior lab tst?

How long does a Bottle of Sustain last on the normal pct protocol fellas?
 
holy ghost said:
hes RIGHT how can you base that when you dont have a prior lab tst?

How long does a Bottle of Sustain last on the normal PCT - post cycle therapy - protocol fellas?
Click to expand...

A bottle of Sustain will last 30 days for PCT... you can continue it too if you like... its good for overall health.

-Pp
 
Well i doubt my E2 was "excessively" high to begin with. I never had itchy nipples before, only when i started Dermacrine. There only other reason my E2 would be excessively high, is if my testosterone levels were above normal levels, while off Dermacrine. I also dont think Dermacrine raised my testosterone above normal normal physiological levels, as i was growing more on Dutasteride and AIMF and more vascular.

I dont think Dermacrine raised my DHEA-S levels while using it, because i really didnt feel too much different then than i do now while on nothing.


And why would my DHEA levels be higher while using it, then lower than it was in the first place 3 days after i stopped? So your saying that if i tested my DHEA-S levels now since ive been of it for over 10 days, that they should be high?

You said not to get your levels tested while on it, and when im off it i test low, but your saying my levels would be high while im on it? You cant gaurantee that, it doesnt make sense seriously.

Please explain this it doesnt make sense.
 
SuperOne said:
Well i doubt my E2 was "excessively" high to begin with. I never had itchy nipples before, only when i started Dermacrine. There only other reason my E2 would be excessively high, is if my testosterone levels were above normal levels, while off Dermacrine. I also dont think Dermacrine raised my testosterone above normal normal physiological levels, as i was growing more on Dutasteride and AIMF and more vascular.

I dont think Dermacrine raised my DHEA-S levels while using it, because i really didnt feel too much different then than i do now while on nothing.


And why would my DHEA levels be higher while using it, then lower than it was in the first place 3 days after i stopped? So your saying that if i tested my DHEA-S levels now since ive been of it for over 10 days, that they should be high?

You said not to get your levels tested while on it, and when im off it i test low, but your saying my levels would be high while im on it? You cant gaurantee that, it doesnt make sense seriously.

Please explain this it doesnt make sense.
Click to expand...


What doesn’t make sense?

I said that your DHEA levels would have been elevated if you tested DURING your Dermacrine use. Dermacrine clears the system within 2-3 days, so if you test your hormones 4 days after using Dermacrine your levels will be lower than before you started because your natural production would be temporarily impaired from the Dermacrine. (which is why we only recommend 4 week cycles)

Your body takes a couple weeks to regain full normal production. So yes, if you tested now your levels should be at least what they were before you started.

I’m assuming your itchy nipples is a result of having lower than normal dihydrotestosterone levels, thus any excess in estrogen would be doing more damage than normal. Dermacrine brings a considerable amount of hormones into the body, which may possibly bring an increase in estrogens in certain individuals. I suppose if your DHT was low enough that is why you noticed the nipple irritation, whereas other individuals with normal DHT wouldn’t have this problem.

-Pp
 
I fully agree, will get my bioavailable testoesterone, aswell as DHEA-S again on Monday or Tuesday, and report the results when i get them back.


Will also report my DHT results when i get them back. They are taking longer because they had to be sent to a different lab.


Didnt you say Dermacrine can help with hairloss?


My hair is thicker at the moment.
 
SuperOne said:
I fully agree, will get my bioavailable testoesterone, aswell as DHEA-S again on Monday or Tuesday, and report the results when i get them back.


Will also report my dihydrotestosterone results when i get them back. They are taking longer because they had to be sent to a different lab.


Didnt you say Dermacrine can help with hairloss?


My hair is thicker at the moment.
Click to expand...

Well that is good to hear.

Yes, Dermacrine will at least prevent further hair loss. The pregnenolone converts to progesterone which helps control DHT levels. (5a-reductase)

Unfortunately, it sounds like you want DHT back up...

-Pp
 
yeah i need DHT back up no doubt.


I need high androgens i think for a while to bounce my body back to normal.


What do you think?
 
SuperOne said:
yeah i need dihydrotestosterone back up no doubt.


I need high androgens i think for a while to bounce my body back to normal.


What do you think?
Click to expand...

Well its sort of choice between a hard-body or a full head of hair… unless you’re willing to possibly look into some natural remedies for your hair (shampoos, scalp application of progesterone, omega’s, ect)…

I think the only way your going to get the bloat reduced is if you bring your DHT levels up again.

-Pp
 
Thanks PP, i want to wait untill i get my DHT results back, aswell as bioavailable and total testosterone first.


Then i can either increase my DHT via proviron and/or increase my test via mabye 200mg per week of testosterone for a bit.


I really dont know much about how to use aas in that regard.


As for hair id rather try to use some topical anti-androgen because i cant deal with this puffier face look, ive never had this before in my life and it doesnt look good on me, especially because it doesnt match my physique at all.
 
Hey Eric, okay i got my dihydrotestosterone results back, i got them tested the same day as my Estradiol and DHEA-S, that i posted.


dihydrotestosterone= 3391 - Range 860 - 3406


So as you see my DHT is almost higher than normal, yet my Estradiol was higher than normal.



So im really confused right now!


I thought DHT was supposed to regulate Estradiol and even lower it. How can my face be holding water if my DHT is almost higher than normal?



So it looks like my itchy nipples werent a result of low DHT,ect. It also looks like the pregnenolone/progesterone deal didnt control my DHT levels.



My doctor ordered a Bioavailable Testosterone test today, but wouldnt test my DHEA-S again, he told me to wait untill i see the Endo in a month.



So what the hell do you think is going on with me?


Im guessing my Total Testosterone must be high, otherwise my DHT and Estradiol wouldnt be high right? Why are my DHEA-S levels still low though?


Based on my results my Total Testosterone probabbly isnt low right?



my Doctor wouldnt test my Total Serum Testosterone, and said it was useless. He said only Bioavailable Testosterone matters.


What i dont get is, cant high Total Testosterone cause higher Estradiol, regardless of Bioavailable Testosterone?
 
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I wonder if dutasteride is clearing your system and your DHT is rebounding right now... The DHT test needed estradiol in it as well.
You definitely need a real hormone panel, so going to the endocrinologist is a good idea.
It's hard to draw any conclusions if you only have one variable at one point in time.

Anyway I would suspect that your testosterone is low right now since 5ar reduction of testosterone may be creating the high DHT, and your estrodial is lowering as a consequence. But the test needs more variables to confirm

SuperOne said:
Hey Eric, okay i got my dihydrotestosterone results back, i got them tested the same day as my Estradiol and DHEA-S, that i posted.


dihydrotestosterone= 3391 - Range 860 - 3406


So as you see my dihydrotestosterone is almost higher than normal, yet my Estradiol was higher than normal.



So im really confused right now!


I thought DHT was supposed to regulate Estradiol and even lower it. How can my face be holding water if my DHT is almost higher than normal?



So it looks like my itchy nipples werent a result of low DHT,ect. It also looks like the pregnenolone/progesterone deal didnt control my DHT levels.



My doctor ordered a Bioavailable Testosterone test today, but wouldnt test my DHEA-S again, he told me to wait untill i see the Endo in a month.



So what the hell do you think is going on with me?


Im guessing my Total Testosterone must be high, otherwise my DHT and Estradiol wouldnt be high right? Why are my DHEA-S levels still low though?


Based on my results my Total Testosterone probabbly isnt low right?



my Doctor wouldnt test my Total Serum Testosterone, and said it was useless. He said only Bioavailable Testosterone matters.


What i dont get is, cant high Total Testosterone cause higher Estradiol, regardless of Bioavailable Testosterone?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks,

I did get my DHEA-S and Estradiol test the same day as dihydrotestosterone.


DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol - 224 HI Range Up To 206


The only reason i had to wait longer for my dihydrotestosterone results, were they had to be sent to a different lab to get the numbers.



This was like 4 days after i finished Dermacrine.
 
DHT will help counter the effects of estrogen, but not actually lower E2 levels.

The pregnenolone/progesterone does limit DHT conversion. Your levels would have been beyond range had you not been on the pregnenolone.

The high “end-hormones” make sense as you just completed Dermacrine a few days prior to this test. These are some of the last hormones in the conversion tree so it makes sense that your DHEA-S was low during this time and these other hormones where elevated. (They are probably lower now that you’ve had a few weeks to level out, and DHEA-S is probably back up) Again, this test was timed badly, so you really cant say anything certain about your hormonal condition.

A stress problem is coming to mind… perhaps high cortisol or aldosterone levels… What does your daily physical activity consist of anyway? Sleep schedule?

-Pp
 
Well you would expect DHT to inhibit aromatase

I wonder if his DHEA is converting to estrogen. High cortisol can elevate aromatase activity and decrease DHEA. But it could be stress , diet or lack of sleep or other factors.


Primordial Performance said:
dihydrotestosterone will help counter the effects of estrogen, but not actually lower E2 levels.

The pregnenolone/progesterone does limit dihydrotestosterone conversion. Your levels would have been beyond range had you not been on the pregnenolone.

The high “end-hormones” make sense as you just completed Dermacrine a few days prior to this test. These are some of the last hormones in the conversion tree so it makes sense that your DHEA-S was low during this time and these other hormones where elevated. (They are probably lower now that you’ve had a few weeks to level out, and DHEA-S is probably back up) Again, this test was timed badly, so you really cant say anything certain about your hormonal condition.

A stress problem is coming to mind… perhaps high cortisol or aldosterone levels… What does your daily physical activity consist of anyway? Sleep schedule?

-Pp
Click to expand...
 
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Hey guys, thanks for the help.


Eric, i dont argue that Dermacrine didnt raise my hormones, as the test showed it did, but ive had low DHEA-S since my first blood test on August 15 below.

Aug/15/07
Free Testosterone = 53.6 Range 31 - 94
DHEA-S = 2.8 LOW Range 7.6 - 17.4
LH = 3 Range 2 - 6
FSH = 3 Range 2 - 8


So would this mean that i had elevated hormones there aswell? I dont get what was going on there. Here's another test i had in October.

Sep/18/07
DHEA-S - 3.6 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Cortisol 24 Hour Urine - 132 Range 27-180


Then i startd Dermacrine right after, and took the following test 4-5 days after i finished Dermacrine


Oct/15/07

DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol-17 Beta - 224 HIGH Range Up To 206
DHT= 3391 - Range 860 - 3406


Mabye the Endo will do a full blood panel for me when i see him in Nov, this way i wouldnt have taken any supplement or anything on over 1 month, and by then my hormones shouldnt be tainted or anything.



Regarding the stress, well when i was on Dutasteride, i was a MESS, my stress tolerance was zero, and i was snapping at people and thing instead of letting them slide. I will NEVER touch Avodart again.


Also, as soon as i quit Avodart i started using stims, which gave me anxiety, insomnia, jitters,ect, started doing hard morning cardio on an empty stomach for 45-60 minutes, popping some stims before hand, and hitting the weights real hard. I couldnt sleep usually untill 3-4am in the morning.


I seriously think the stims, yohimbine, caffeine,ect, stressed out my adrenals, and my DHT was probabbly still low from the Avodart at that time, and my estrogen might have been high. But based on my appearance, i dont think my Testosterone was low, unless i get jacked as shit on low Test, because people were commenting when i wore cut off shirts, and i dont think ive been that vascular and pumped before. My arms also got bigger. I know Finesteride upregulates the androgen receptors, so Avodart probabbly did this more because my forarms looked like friggin pop eye's on Avodart.



I do do a physical labour job, but ive been doing it for years and its not as stressful as an intense 45-60 workout it.



I seriosuly think my problems were either due to Avodart, the stimulants, or both, because ive never had a problem like this before in my life, and shit like this doesnt just happen for no reason when your healthy.



All my non hormonal blood work came back fine, i was tested for HIV, Mono, Syphilis, ect, and they all came back negative,ect.



I decided to wait untill Monday to get my Bioavailable Testosterone test done, so that should be interesting.



What do you think of Relora? A study showed it increased DHEA and reduced morning Cortisol levels.



So it looks like i can possibly use Propecia, with mabye low dose Letrozole, and not get any bloat?


I dont want to throw my system out of balance like i did with Dutasteride, which inhibits almost all DHT, including type 1 and 2 DHT.


Propecia only reduces type 2 DHT buy about 75%, in that case my DHT levels would still pretty much be on the low side of normal range, or just a bit below normal mabye. The halflife is really short, like 8 hours, and DHT levels return to normal within 2-3 weeks max when quitting Propecia.


What do you think would be a good dose of Letrozole to use to "control" Estradiol while on Propecia? I think Letro would be a good choice, because it has anti-progestin effects aswell. Mabye even using Sustain on the sack, in addition would be a cool idea?



Thanks for the help!
 
Yes Sustain perhaps combined with a very low dose of Arimidex. (letro is a bit too powerful to accurately control E levels)

BTW, get your total T checked too… it’s just as important as free T despite what your Doc says.

Gjohnson, where do you get the info that DHT inhibits aromatase?

-Pp
 
Thanks Eric, do you sell the Total Testosterone Test? Mabye i can order the Total & Bioavailable test from you.


My Doctor was getting mad and wouldnt order me the Total Testosterone test, the asshole.


What anti-estrogen has the greatest effect on lowering Estradiol, opposed to sulfated estrogens?


Ive read that Arimidex doesnt lower that much Estradiol, and lowers mostly sulfated estrogens, like Estrone,ect.



Thanks.
 
Oh Eric, i have a study showing that patients given DHT, lowered Estradiol.


I think it was on the Patrick Arnold " Give DHT A Break " article that i posted in this thread.
 
Can I tell you my experience on dutasteride. I took generic duprost for 3.5 months. Morning wood every day and I think my libido actually went up. I was totally dis-satisfied with it's effectiveness to do anything including stop hair loss. I still lost hair on the middle of my head.

I'm starting to think dutasteride has little to do with this problem.

The stress plus the use of stimulant use seems to be the issue to me at this point. I've had issues with stress as well. You probably should try deep breathing and/or consultations with a friend or someone you trust. Hitting the weight room hard works for me. I don't believe in taking drugs including alcohol and cigarettes for stress | anxiety |depression. I think it's more up to you to decide not to take your issues is such extremely cynical and harsh ways. Letro will not cure anxiety. I don't see the harm in you doing a really low dose letro, but you shouldn't take any drugs now if you're going to see a doctor. He may want you to wait several months so all the other drugs clear your system so he can run good tests. This is my advise about any other meds is to wait until you are done with the doctors you are seeing. After that , you can experiment if you like.

Anyway let us know how the doctor goes.
SuperOne said:
Hey guys, thanks for the help.


Eric, i dont argue that Dermacrine didnt raise my hormones, as the test showed it did, but ive had low DHEA-S since my first blood test on August 15 below.

Aug/15/07
Free Testosterone = 53.6 Range 31 - 94
DHEA-S = 2.8 LOW Range 7.6 - 17.4
lh - leutenizing hormone - = 3 Range 2 - 6
FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - = 3 Range 2 - 8


So would this mean that i had elevated hormones there aswell? I dont get what was going on there. Here's another test i had in October.

Sep/18/07
DHEA-S - 3.6 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Cortisol 24 Hour Urine - 132 Range 27-180


Then i startd Dermacrine right after, and took the following test 4-5 days after i finished Dermacrine


Oct/15/07

DHEA-S - 3.3 LOW Range 7.6-17.4
Estradiol-17 Beta - 224 HIGH Range Up To 206
dihydrotestosterone= 3391 - Range 860 - 3406


Mabye the Endo will do a full blood panel for me when i see him in Nov, this way i wouldnt have taken any supplement or anything on over 1 month, and by then my hormones shouldnt be tainted or anything.



Regarding the stress, well when i was on Dutasteride, i was a MESS, my stress tolerance was zero, and i was snapping at people and thing instead of letting them slide. I will NEVER touch Avodart again.


Also, as soon as i quit Avodart i started using stims, which gave me anxiety, insomnia, jitters,ect, started doing hard morning cardio on an empty stomach for 45-60 minutes, popping some stims before hand, and hitting the weights real hard. I couldnt sleep usually untill 3-4am in the morning.


I seriously think the stims, yohimbine, caffeine,ect, stressed out my adrenals, and my DHT was probabbly still low from the Avodart at that time, and my estrogen might have been high. But based on my appearance, i dont think my Testosterone was low, unless i get jacked as shit on low Test, because people were commenting when i wore cut off shirts, and i dont think ive been that vascular and pumped before. My arms also got bigger. I know Finesteride upregulates the androgen receptors, so Avodart probabbly did this more because my forarms looked like friggin pop eye's on Avodart.



I do do a physical labour job, but ive been doing it for years and its not as stressful as an intense 45-60 workout it.



I seriosuly think my problems were either due to Avodart, the stimulants, or both, because ive never had a problem like this before in my life, and shit like this doesnt just happen for no reason when your healthy.



All my non hormonal blood work came back fine, i was tested for HIV, Mono, Syphilis, ect, and they all came back negative,ect.



I decided to wait untill Monday to get my Bioavailable Testosterone test done, so that should be interesting.



What do you think of Relora? A study showed it increased DHEA and reduced morning Cortisol levels.



So it looks like i can possibly use Propecia, with mabye low dose Letrozole, and not get any bloat?


I dont want to throw my system out of balance like i did with Dutasteride, which inhibits almost all DHT, including type 1 and 2 DHT.


Propecia only reduces type 2 DHT buy about 75%, in that case my DHT levels would still pretty much be on the low side of normal range, or just a bit below normal mabye. The halflife is really short, like 8 hours, and DHT levels return to normal within 2-3 weeks max when quitting Propecia.


What do you think would be a good dose of Letrozole to use to "control" Estradiol while on Propecia? I think Femera - letrozole - would be a good choice, because it has anti-progestin effects aswell. Mabye even using Sustain on the sack, in addition would be a cool idea?



Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
 
Well i can tell you from my many readings on hairloss Forums, that the Duprost you used was probabbly crap, as ive read tons of others people experience on Duprost, and they had similar results to yours.


They switched to REAL brand name Avodart, and then they had much better results, aswell as some side effects. I can point to you numerous threads to back this up.


So i would try real brand name Avodart, wait atleast 6 months, and get back to me. Avodart is powerfull shit, and i noticed results within 4 weeks. Another thing to note is that everybody reacts differently, and it usually takes 12 months to see results as far as hair treatments go. On Propecia it took about 10 months before i saw results, and my hair actually looked a bit worse for a few months, before i had an overall improvement.



Ive been under MUCH more stressful situtations in my life, trust me, and i had no issues as a result. Breathing,ect, has nothing to do with it, ive never reacted like that before to stress, it was the Dutasteride fucking up my hormones. Woman react the same way on PMS when their hormones are all messed up. Its not totally their fault. You know dihydrotestosterone has strong effects on central nervous system and stress right?


To tell you the truth, today i feel pretty damn good!


I know my body and can tell you with absolute certainty is was either the Dutasteride, stimulants, or both.


Ive never used stimulants before this, and T-Rex,ect, is some powerfull shit.


I wont use Propecia or anything untill i see the endo in a month, just incase he wants to run more tests.
 
It's a common side effect of DHT based drugs, especially winstrol joint inflammation.

Anyway, It's the mechanism which is the issue. If one has elevated estrogen , the real issue is HOW the estrogen became elevated.


SuperOne said:
Oh Eric, i have a study showing that patients given dihydrotestosterone, lowered Estradiol.


I think it was on the Patrick Arnold " Give DHT A Break " article that i posted in this thread.
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