Clomid-- The Big Lie

[Nelson Montana]

That's the title of a chapter from BOTTOM LINE BODYBUILDING. I wrote it in 2001 when everybody was Clomid happy. Today, a new generation of bodybuilders are realizing they've been lied to.

So I ask you...where's the proof? Where's the proff that Clomid does anything at all for restoring testosterone? It's all based on sketchy evidence, scant research studies (often misinterpreted) heresay, rumor, misunderstanding and the prepetuation of erroneous information.

This is something a few former "experts" on this board never quite comprehended. (This is how misinfomation spreads). Sure, there are some studies that Clomid therepy improved HPTA levels after being severly supressed -- AFTER TWO MONTHS OF TREATMENT. Hell, take nothing and HPTA levels will be restored after 2 months.

And even those lucky(?) few who have good results with Clomid -- where's the evidence that arimidex doesn't restore testosterone just as well? Again, the reigning experts would scream that you need a SERM not and Anti -e post cycle. Why? Anyone? Because somebody said so?

I can't tell you how many times these nitwits would tell people to use up 100 mgs for months on end only to have the person respond by saying his condition wasn't improved -- only to be told to do MORE CLOMID! I can't help but wonder how many people were messed up by these "good bros."

In a straight up comparison, Clomid vs A-dex...Clomid loses every time.

Clomid and its nasty cousin Nolvadex, decreases LH, removes "good estrogen" has a possible rebound effect, lowers IGF-1, lowers FSH, lowers sperm count, lowers semen volume, may damage vision, causes letargy and depression and may even increase estrogen.

A-dex cause non of those side effects and also supresses SHBG.

A_dex along with natural supps -- Calcium D Glucarate, Chrysin, (Found in POST CYCLE) also CytogenX and Dermacrine the the only sane thing to use PC.

I know, there will be those who said Clomid worked for them. But I've seen a lot of cases where it hasn't. And the results were disasterous. Yet, never once, did I see anyone use A-dex and the right supps and have a problem. Never.

CLOMID SUCKS. Let it die.

 

[xrsist]

ill tell you what after my next cycle ill use adex and natural supps for PCT and if i crash or feel shit in any way (as i dont on clomid) you can supply my cycles worth of gear again...... interested??

 

[5x10]

what about hcg?
i plan on running hcg and adex for pct

 

[jmead]

i crashed pretty hard on clomid last cycle, it was my first real PCT.. i wasnt impressed.. im open for new things i guess..

 

[Mrpumped]

HCG, Nolva, Clomid and an AI works perfect along with a Testosterone Amplifyer(supp). Not to make this an argument but do you have studies you can publish to prove this? The other "experts" you mentioned have a background in science so I would be inclined to believe a scientific explanation over what personal feelings would say. I personally recovered with the medications I mentioned.

 

[chilledandy]

HCG should be used prior to PCT not as PCT as it suppresses natural testosterone in a similar way to steroids in that once you come off it, your body will produce a lower amount due to the rebound effect.

 

[r1]

Nelson,

A couple of points...

1. It has been demonstrated that SERMs (Clomid, Nolvadex) strongly raise LH (the body's signal to create more T). This has been demonstrated countless times in the HRT environment since response to a SERM is a good indicator of what type of hypogonadism you have (primary, secondary). Here is my blood work from about a year ago when I attempted to get off of HRT. I used Nolvadex.

Notice a few things:
A. After stopping HRT to begin Nolva, my levels all crashed into the basement. This is a clear indicator of why you need PCT. You get shut down hard on a cycle.
B. The Nolvadex took a long ass time to start working
C. When it did finally start working, it pushed LH over the top of the range.
D. When I got off of Nolvadex, my T levels fell back down...I got back on HRT.

2. Consider this PCT protocol written by Dr John Crisler aka SWALE. Some of the points are debatable, but the bottom line is that SWALE is a very knowledgable guy that has worked with many bros trying to recover from AAS use and has been successfully able to treat them. He also pioneered an HRT regimen that has helped many bros get their lives back. The reasons for not using an AI are stated at the end.

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two
days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to
maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the
horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three
counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within
physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some
feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are
then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating
steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is
temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular
atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking
larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL
THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy,
burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better
each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to
appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at
the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous
testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure
a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around
100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels
drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week.
That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over
estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if
the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now
prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from
the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to
switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in
using BOTH SERM's at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the
SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of
AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering
the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the
cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery,
as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in
recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a
"bridge".
Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does
not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the
body-it is smarter than you are.

I like arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while
taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post
cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the
risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already
compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into
the ground-and we don't want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the
real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they
are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

I do agree that Clomid is some nasty shit in general and for that reason, I chose Nolvadex. I know bros who have become suicidal on Clomid. F that!

R1

 

[needtogetaas]

HCG should be used prior to PCT not as PCT as it suppresses natural testosterone in a similar way to steroids in that once you come off it, your body will produce a lower amount due to the rebound effect.

good post.

 

[instant.muscle]

ive not used any pct before and it worked out fine, hope my clomid and nolva on my next cycle works good

 

[5x10]

HCG should be used prior to PCT not as PCT as it suppresses natural testosterone in a similar way to steroids in that once you come off it, your body will produce a lower amount due to the rebound effect.

good article posted here about hcg throughout the cycle

but what puspose would it serve to get the nuts going again only to have them shut down time and time again while on cycle(very high test levels)?