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Hair Loss, Parts I, II, and more

buffdoc

New member
Hey all you hairy beasts.

The point of this lengthy post is to educate you about androgenetic alopecia, versus other types of hair loss, as well as how hair actually grows and is lost. This info will be a helpful knowledge base for understanding later sections.
Some of this may not seem to be completely pertinent to AAS associated hair loss, but in a way it all is.
Some of this is cut and pasted, but it is all original and written by me: from a short book I wrote on the subject. There is also a focus on medical and especially surgical hair restoration, which may or may not interest you.



Scientific Basis of Hair Growth and Distribution

In the following discussion, we will mostly be concerned with scalp hair. Although scalp and body hair share many of the same characteristics, it is balding that we seek to understand and remedy, so this will be the focus unless otherwise indicated.
Hair is a living entity, although the shafts we see are largely the extension, outside the body, of a dead protein called keratin. Beneath the level of the skin, however, there sits a powerhouse of cellular activity. This cell division and differentiation pushes the hair shaft outward; thus we see hair growth that averages about one half inch per month.
There are two types of hair: terminal and vellus. The terminal hairs are the thick, strong, usually pigmented ones that constitute the greatest volume of our hair. The vellus hairs are the very fine, short, lightly pigmented hairs, sometimes called “baby hairs”, that can be often detected around the hairline, and throughout the scalp, as well as the light “fuzz” elsewhere on the body. This difference is significant when discussing balding, for in balding, the terminal hairs gradually undergo a metamorphosis called “miniaturization”. They become shorter, finer, and less colored; in short, they become vellus hairs. If you look closely at the heads of balding men, you will see that, in many of the areas of balding, the strong terminal hairs are replaced by these fine, vellus, “baby” hairs; this is miniaturization, and we will discuss this in greater detail in the next section on hair loss.
In addition to these two types of hairs, the individual characteristics of the hair are very important in determining appearance (including the appearance of balding) and styling options. These characteristics include color, curl or kink, caliber (cross-sectional area) and density (number of hairs per unit area). For example, although African hair tends to have a lower density (hairs per square inch) than Caucasian hair, its extreme curliness lends it a great volume and ability to achieve coverage after hair transplant surgery. Asian hair, although it tends to be very coarse (high caliber), may be more challenging to transplant due to the straight nature of the hair, and the contrast between dark hair and lighter skin. However, these are but a few examples, and all of these characteristics are taken into account by the hair restoration expert in designing a program for each unique individual. This is where the art of hair restoration meets the science.
In addition to the hair shafts themselves, there are other structures involved in the growth and function of hair. Each hair is associated with a sebaceous gland, which produces the oily sebum that serves to lubricate the hair shafts. Likewise, there is an erector pili muscle, which contracts to raise the hair in situations of anger, fright or cold. Although this function serves little purpose in humans, we see it in other mammals when their “hackles” rise.
Hair growth and rest occurs in three phases: anagen, catagen and telogen. The anagen phase is the period of active growth. At any time, about 85 to 91% of hairs are in this active, anagen phase. Anagen may last from 2 to 7 years, but usually about 3 years on average. The catagen phase is considered transitional, and the telogen phase is the dormant, or resting phase. When the hair enters the telogen stage, the hair is either pulled out during normal grooming, or is pushed out when the new hair shaft growth begins.
Last, but certainly not least, is the anatomical and physiological unit we have come to call “follicular units”. If you have done any current reading on hair restoration surgery, you have surely come across this term. Believe it or not, it was only in the early 1980’s that it was recognized that hairs grew not as strictly single shafts, but as discrete groups of one, two, three, four, and rarely five terminal hairs. These hairs are joined by one or two vellus hairs, a sebaceous gland, an erector muscle, a neurovascular bundle (meaning the nerve and blood vessels), and the perifolliculum, or fine connective tissue sheath. These units are easy to see emerging from the skin under slight magnification on cross section through the skin (figure 1) or when the hair is clipped short (figure 2).
Sorry, Pix wouldn't load!


Figure 1 (cross section)


Figure 2 (surface of scalp)

The significance of recognizing follicular units as the fundamental grouping of scalp hair cannot be underestimated. This understanding has led to a revolution in the techniques of modern hair transplantation. The past decade has given us a whole new perspective on the harvesting, movement and implantation of permanent hair into areas of balding scalp. This can now be done, at least by well-trained surgeons and their operative teams, in a manner that is natural and undetectable. We will discuss this more, in greater detail, in later sections.
OK, now this part's essential for a full understanding of hair loss. There are LOTS of myths about balding (some of which I've seen promulgated on this board! Tsk, tsk!)


Hair Loss: Causes and Conditions

There are many causes of hair loss in men and women, including disease, nutritional deficiency, hormone imbalance, and stress. However, by far the most common cause is what is called adrogenetic alopecia. Alopecia is simply the medical term for hair loss. Androgenetic refers to the fact that both a genetic predisposition to balding, and the influence of androgens, or male hormones, play a part in this type of hair loss.
In fact, there is a third factor, which is the passage of time, or aging. In other words, in order for androgenetic alopecia to occur, there must be:

1) a genetic propensity for balding
2) the presence of androgens, or male hormones
3) enough aging time to allow the first two factors to exert their influence on the hair follicles

Genetics
Genetics is not always simple, and such is the case with balding. Just the presence or absence of balding in one’s parents or grandparents, on either the mother’s or father’s side, is not necessarily predictive of one’s likelihood of balding. Certainly, if a man’s father is completely bald, and this man begins to rapidly lose hair in his early twenties, it’s a safe bet that he will develop extensive balding at some point. In short, it’s very hard to accurately predict who will go bald and how rapidly.
This inherent uncertainly about the progression of balding is of utmost importance in planning surgical hair restoration, as we will see in later sections. We must always plan for a “worst case scenario” in order to give patients the best possible results in the long term, as well as in the short term. Anything less is irresponsible.

Androgenic Hormones
All normal men and women produce “male” hormones. The most common of these are testosterone, androsteinedione, and dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Androgens are produced by the testicles and adrenals in men, and by the ovaries and adrenal glands in women. These hormones are quite important in both sexes, but occur in different concentrations, being much more predominant in males than in females. This, in part, is responsible for the typical differences between the genders.
It is the exposure of the hair follicles to DHT, in a genetically susceptible person, over a period of time, which leads to androgenetic alopecia, or male and female pattern baldness. How does this exposure to DHT occur?
In certain cells of the hair follicle, and in the sebaceous glands, there are high levels of an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase. What this enzyme does is to convert testosterone, which is delivered to these areas by the blood, into DHT. This is important not only in understanding the mechanisms of balding, but also one medical treatment now available: Propecia (finasteride). What Propecia does is inhibit, or limit the activity of, this 5-alpha-reductase enzyme. Therefore, there is less conversion of testosterone to DHT, and lower levels of DHT are found in the follicle. In later sections, we will discuss this and other medical treatments in much greater detail.

Aging
There is no set age at which balding occurs. It is a process, and this is a simple, but oft-ignored fact. Like any process, it can be rapid or slow, it can begin toward the end of life or in the late teens, and it can progress in a predictably inexorable fashion, or it can stop and start, seemingly stabilize, and then begin again. Once we understand and accept this as a dynamic process, then we can better plan for the present and for the future in terms of how we treat it. This quest for understanding, which you have begun just by opening this book, will do more than all the despairing thoughts, hand-wringing, and self-pity, toward allowing a clear-eyed, rational, long term approach to the problem of hair loss.

So we now have looked at these three interdependent factors that play into the common types of balding. Again, they are: hormones, genetics, and Father Time. So what exactly does happen to the hair? Let’s take a look.
Assuming we have a genetically predisposed person, then as the follicles are continuously exposed to DHT, an interesting phenomenon occurs. Remember the anagen phase, or active growth phase of the hair? This phase becomes gradually briefer and briefer, and eventually the hair becomes finer and shorter, and less deeply colored. We call this “miniaturization” of hairs. This is also the point at which hair loss tends to first be noticed. It’s not that there are fewer hairs on the head, but that their caliber (cross-sectional area), color and length are so diminished that they no longer provide “coverage” for the scalp beneath. Light penetrates through to the shiny scalp, and this is perceived by the observer as “thinning” or balding.
Also, the ratio between hairs in the anagen phase and those in the telogen, or resting phase, is increased. This simply means that, at any given time, an increased number of hairs are in the telogen phase. These extra numbers of telogen hairs will be found in the susceptible zone for common balding, which is the front, top, and crown of the head. The so-called “permanent” zone, the familiar horseshoe-shaped wreath of hair around the back and sides, is unaffected by these changes. The telogen hairs are easily dislodged during washing, drying, or combing, and this is the second sign of balding: in addition to the apparent thinning seen with miniaturization, we begin to see larger numbers of hairs on the comb, the towel, the pillowcase, or in the bathroom drain. This can be quite traumatic, especially for the younger man or for women. In the next section, we will discuss the natural history of balding, that is, the way it first presents or appears, the different ways it progresses, and how it affects the different regions of the head.
For the sake of completeness, let’s briefly mention some of the other patterns of hair loss, if only to distinguish them from androgenetic alopecia (male and female pattern baldness). There is alopecia areata, where discrete patches of scalp go bald; triangular alopecia, which tend to occur in a triangular pattern in the temporal area; alopecia universalis, in which the entire body may be affected; and various “toxic” alopecias, including those following a severe illness, sometimes with high fever, or following pregnancy. Toxic alopecias may also occur with low thyroid and/or pituitary gland function, or following chemotherapy. The cicatricial (scarring) alopecias occur following tissue destruction and inflammation.
Also seen are the so-called diffuse alopecias (patterned and unpatterned), in which there is widespread thinning that may affect the “permanent” zone as well as the areas vulnerable to balding. In any or all of these less common types of balding above, it may be necessary to have a complete physical and laboratory workup, possibly including scalp biopsy.
So again, the common types of balding are directly related to the presence of male hormones in a genetically predisposed person over time. This can occur in both men and women. The process involves progressive miniaturization of the terminal hairs, and diminished length of the active hair growth cycle. Now, let’s take a look at how this microscopic, cellular process is manifested on the head; we can call this the natural history of balding.

Stay tuned: much more to come! The following statement about A.A. (MPB) is the "take-home" message for this section!

Like any process, it can be rapid or slow, it can begin toward the end of life or in the late teens, and it can progress in a predictably inexorable fashion, or it can stop and start, seemingly stabilize, and then begin again.



The Natural History of Balding

The natural history of balding is simply the way it first presents or appears, the different ways it progresses, and how it affects the different regions of the head. We consider it vital that anyone with common balding become familiar with these concepts. If you can become as conversant as possible with the different balding patterns, and can learn to compare and contrast your own hair loss with these known patterns, you will become a more informed patient. You will ask better questions, understand the answers in more depth, and be more likely to take care of the hair that you do have. Also, if you choose a medical or surgical hair restoration treatment, you will most likely have appropriate expectations, and be more apt to follow the doctor’s instructions about post-operative care or taking your medications.
In the beginning, we are born with varying amounts of soft, fine baby hair, which is vellus in nature. As we grow, much of our hair becomes the more robust terminal type. It may change in pigmentation, often becoming darker, and it may acquire a curl or wave, and may become coarser.
After puberty, we see what we call the adolescent hairline. This type of hairline may only persist for a few years, and is characterized by its low, fairly flat spread across the forehead. This looks great on teenagers, but this is rarely found on mature adults, even in their twenties.
As men progress through their twenties, given that there is no balding, the hairline assumes the “mature” look, with slight frontal-temporal recessions, which impart a concave appearance to the hair line on each side, with a lower peak in the middle. This is analogous to the number “II” Classification on the Norwood scale (fig. 3). This is the most well known of several systems for classifying degrees of baldness, and was developed by Dr. O’Tar Norwood. This is a very useful scale for identifying one’s own current degree of hair loss in a way that is acknowledged and understood by physicians in the field of hair loss treatment.
This “mature” hairline is not considered balding; the Norwood III is considered the first evidence of balding in androgenetic alopecia (male pattern baldness). In studying the Norwood charts, we see that usually the most advanced balding is known as a class VII, and that there are also Type “A” variants in which the forelock in the middle tends to recede along with the fronto-temporal areas, and in which there is be less overt crown loss than in the regular III, IV, and V patterns.




Figure 1 (sorry again!)


So there may be front-to-back hair loss, or hair loss beginning in front and at the crown simultaneously, or sometimes isolated vertex or crown loss (the “bald spot”). These patterns are often overlapping and not as clear-cut as in the drawings on the chart, but they are an adequate and useful guide. It is important to understand that a person may be a III at age 25, but have progressed to a V or VI by age 35. Anyone considering surgical hair restoration needs to understand the unpredictable nature of the balding process; if further loss is not planned for, then what may be a nice cosmetic effect at one age can become a cosmetic nightmare ten years down the road. We will devote an entire, later section to just this kind of strategic planning.
A word about women’s hair loss: women can experience a Norwood type of hair loss pattern. More often, however, they experience a relative sparing and preservation of the frontal hairline, but have diffuse thinning on the top of the scalp. There is also a classification system for women known as the Ludwig Classification (figure 4).



Figure 2 (!!)



Sometimes women are candidates for surgical hair restoration due to balding, and at times have lost hair due to other cosmetic procedures, like face-lifting. This hair loss is often around the hairline or ears, and can be remedied. Women may also experience “traction alopecia”, which is caused by the chronic tugging force of tight braids or pigtails. This type of loss is also amenable to transplantation.
We have attempted here to stress the relative unpredictability of “pattern” baldness. This must be reemphasized. Often, young men seek hair transplantation and have desires or illusions about how they would like to appear. These may or may not be feasible. Certainly, when one is 25, it may be hard to care about one’s appearance at 45, but this must be factored into the equation. The recent memory of the low, adolescent hairline burns brightly in the mind of a young man, but a really good hair transplant procedure should always give the patient results that can be “worn” for a lifetime, and always appear appropriate for that individual’s age and head shape. This is where the attention of an experienced, well-trained, aesthetically sensitive hair restoration surgeon makes all the difference in the world.




Medical Treatments for Hair Loss

This section is bound to upset some people. They will feel that their favorite hair loss preventative has been slighted. However, the section below is NOT saying that topical spironolactone, Nizoral shampoo, or other treatments do not work. What it IS saying, is that from a scientific perspective of rigorous, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trials, we “know” that finasteride and minoxidil are proven to work. How well? Not perfectly, that’s for sure. (Besides, I wrote this, and I use Nizoral 3 times a week). So here’s the information, take it with a grain of salt!

For thousands of years, hopeful and desperate men have fallen prey to hucksters and salesmen hawking various potions and ointments, with claims of miraculous balding cures. The latest and greatest cures have never lived up to their hype, leaving the balding victims poorer but (sometimes) wiser. A powerful placebo effect (based on a strong desire for the treatment to work), along with gullibility or desperation, often resulted in a temporary sense of “improvement”. Eventually, however, the fact that there were no cures for baldness became evident.
Even today, we have no miracle “cures” for baldness. Even surgical hair restoration does not cure the balding process; what it does is redistribute permanent hair to balding areas. The same can be said of the two medical or drug treatments that have been shown to be of use in hair loss. Propecia, and especially Rogaine, do not so much reverse balding, but halt or slow its progression.

Rogaine (minoxidil)
Minoxidil has been available in oral form for years. It was originally developed as an agent for treating high blood pressure; it had a number of significant side effects, which limited its use to people with severe, refractory high blood pressure, which was not completely responsive to combinations of other medications. One of the less dangerous, but quite obvious, side effects was “hypertrichosis”, or the growth of hair on the face or other areas of the body.
Of course, someone had the bright idea that perhaps applying this drug to the bald scalp might grow hair there. Thus, Rogaine was developed by The Upjohn pharmaceutical company, and the rest is history. Again, Rogaine does not cure baldness; in fact, no one is quite sure how it works. We do know that it does not grow hair on completely bald scalp; rather, it tends to retard the loss of hair in areas that are highly miniaturized. It may be that Rogaine prolongs the growth phase of the hair (remember the anagen cycle, that gets progressively shorter in the balding process), which halts or slows the miniaturization process.
With the use of Rogaine, it may take 6 to 12 months to notice a change; in fact, some people do not notice a difference unless they stop using it. Within 2 to 3 months of discontinuing the medication, any “regrowth” or appearance of increased density will vanish. In other words, even if Rogaine works for you, you must continue the medication indefinitely, or any benefit will be lost. Also, it is effective in the crown or top of the head, but not in the frontal area. This is unfortunate, because the front of the scalp and the hairline are the most cosmetically important areas. (Please repeat after me! The utmost importance of this primary rule of hair restoration will be reemphasized over and over as we consider treatments for balding).
Rogaine also must be used twice a day; once a day application has been clearly shown to be ineffective. In addition, the growth may not be as great as one imagines; since Rogaine probably works by increasing the thickness of hairs which are already miniaturized, the most many patients see is an apparent growth of fine, fuzzy hair which does not tend to grow very long.
Women may also benefit from the use of Rogaine, especially since their hair loss is often characterized by diffuse thinning. If this is the case, a halting or reversal of thinning may be possible with prolonged use; but as with men, stopping the medication will result in a reversal of the benefits.
Some hair restoration surgeons recommend that their transplant patients use Rogaine before and then immediately after the surgery, especially is grafts have been placed in and around existing hair. The medication may help prevent the temporary loss of healthy, preexisting hair due to the shock of the procedure. Some surgeons do feel that the medication should be stopped a week prior to the surgery, because it dilates blood vessels, and might increase operative bleeding.

Propecia (finasteride)
The drug finasteride (marketed as Proscar for symptoms of prostate enlargement) has been available for years. Only since 1998 has it been approved for use in male pattern balding, and has been formulated as an oral, one milligram tablet called Propecia (versus the five milligram Proscar).
This drug works by inhibiting the action of the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase, which, as you remember, is the enzyme responsible for converting testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Men with pattern balding have higher levels of this enzyme in and around the follicles that are at risk for loss. It is the effect of DHT on the hair follicles that leads to the miniaturization of terminal hairs. So, if we inhibit 5-alpha-reductase, then we inhibit DHT formation, decrease its levels in the blood stream and in the scalp, and stop or slow the process of miniaturization that we know as balding. Indeed, this is what was found in the clinical studies on Propecia.
A word about hormone effects: DHT is responsible for facial hair growth, increased incidence of acne, growth of the prostate gland, and is integral in the development of male pattern baldness (androgenetic alopecia). Testosterone, on the other hand, is the classic “male” hormone, and is responsible for the changes seen at puberty: lowering of the voice, growth of the genitalia, an increase in muscle mass, and increased libido or sex drive. When testosterone is deficient, there may be decreased sex drive, erectile dysfunction, depression, lack of normal “drive” and ambition, and a loss of muscle mass. In other words, much of what DHT effects, we can do without! Testosterone, on the other hand, is extremely important. When men took the one milligram dose of Propecia, their DHT levels dropped by about two-thirds; on the other hand, testosterone levels were not only maintained in the normal range, but increased almost ten percent!
So the mechanism by which Propecia acts, unlike that of Rogaine, is well understood. Let’s look at what the studies and clinical trials showed about its effectiveness. 1,553 men, ages 18 to 41, with Norwood Class II Vertex, III Vertex, IV or V balding patterns (which are mild to moderate; the Class VI and VII are the most severe patterns) were given Propecia. At two years, 83% of those taking Propecia either grew more hair or at least lost no more. However, this effect was much more noticeable in the crown area than in the frontal or hairline zone. Also, the hairs that did grow in were longer and thicker, or more like terminal hairs, in contrast to the finer, shorter hair seen with the use of Rogaine.
Side effects seen were minimal in number. They included different types of sexual dysfunction (decreased sex drive, erectile dysfunction, decreased semen volume) at a total incidence of 3.8%. However, the group that received the placebo (sugar pill) had an incidence of 2.1%, which is not a large difference at all. Furthermore, these sexual side effects went away in all the men who stopped the medication, and in almost two-thirds of those who continued the medication!
6 to 12 months are required before any increase in hair is apparent; any sexual side effects would have occurred well before that time, so there is not a problem of losing hair that was gained on the medication when one stops taking it. Also, remember that if a person stops either Propecia or Rogaine, any hair lost will be only that which was gained or maintained while on the drug, and not any other; in short, one returns to the state of balding one would have experienced had one never taken the drug at all.
Another interesting finding in patients on Propecia is that it causes an approximately one-third reduction in the level of prostate-specific antigen (PSA). PSA is used as a screening test for prostate cancer; it also may be elevated in men with enlargement of the prostate. There has been some concern that this might compromise prostate cancer screening, even though the decrease in PSA in fairly predictable. To be safe, however, men should let their primary physician know if they are taking Propecia, so that this blunting effect on PSA can be taken into account.
Propecia does not seem to grow hair in areas that are completely bald. Its effects are apparent only in areas of the scalp that are thinning, but where there is still some hair present. Therefore, the major benefit of the drug seems to be in its ability to slow down or halt hair loss, or regrow hair in parts of the scalp that are miniaturized. The long-term ability of Propecia to maintain one's hair is unknown. Effects usually peak around one year and then are stable in the second year or decrease very slightly.
As previously stated, the benefits will stop if the medication is discontinued. Over the 3-6 months following discontinuation of Propecia, the hair loss pattern will generally return its native state (that is, as if no medication had ever been used).
Although both Propecia and Rogaine are FDA approved as being safe and effective, this does not mean that all the long term effects are known. Even though the side effects are rare, we can see that the drugs’ actions are not entirely confined to the scalp. We now have three to four years of experience with Propecia; only over time will the full ramifications of either of these agents be fully evident.
Many hair transplant surgeons find Propecia to be an excellent adjunctive medication, for several reasons: 1) Propecia works best in younger men; some of them may not be hair transplant candidates yet. 2) the medication works better in the crown area, and often the crown requires more surgically harvested donor hair than may be available. 3) Propecia is less effective in the front. Hair transplantation has its greatest impact on the hairline and in the frontal area. 4) If Propecia continues to slow or halt hair loss in the crown area, surgeons may be able to create greater density in areas such as the front, which will have a greater cosmetic effect, while sparing the all-important donor hair for the future.
While not an actual hair growth or maintenance product, there is a newer post-operative product that we will mention, known as GraftCyte, which is manufactured by the ProCyte Corporation. This line of products contains copper peptides, which have been shown to help with wound healing. The company makes a shampoo and conditioner, that are often recommended after transplant surgery, as well as a spray for hydrating the graft sites, and prepared, foil-wrapped sets of copper peptide saturated gauzes designed to be used for the first three post-operative days. In addition, there is a gel to be placed on the donor incision in the back of the head. All of these interventions may lead to improved, more rapid healing.
There are also claims that using the GraftCyte products promotes the more rapid growth of the transplanted hair. This has yet to be proven in controlled trials, but many people chose to use these products for their healing properties, and hope that these unproven claims are true as well.





Surgical Treatments for Hair Loss

History of Hair Loss Surgery

As early as the 1930’s, Japanese physicians were successfully harvesting and grafting multiple and single hairs into other areas of the body, including the scalp, face, and pubic region. The reports of these procedures were written in Japanese; this, together with the onset of World War Two, insured that the Western world remained in the dark until the late 1950’s.
In 1959, New York dermatologist Norman Orentreich reported hair-bearing scalp autografts (from the same person) that were successfully transplanted from the back of the head to the balding front and top. Thus the concept of “donor dominance” was introduced, and the discipline of hair restoration surgery in the West was born.
Donor dominance is the central functional principle of hair transplant surgery. What this means is this: if one harvests hair follicles from the “permanent zone” of the scalp, and transplants it to the balding areas, the donor hair characteristics will predominate. In other words, since this donor hair is genetically programmed not to respond to the male hormone DHT by becoming miniaturized, it will continue to grow and thrive even though its location is now in a balding “zone”.


Evolving Aesthetics of Hair Transplantation

For the first 20 to 25 years of hair transplantation, 3-4mm (millimeter) round, “plug” grafts were the standard units generally placed in balding areas. These were felt to be the optimal size grafts in terms of density (hairs per square mm) and in terms of blood flow (nourishment) to the tissues of the graft. In other words, these grafts, with 12 to 20 hairs each, could achieve high density in the recipient (balding) area; also, bigger grafts would be easier to move, but re-establishing their blood flow, especially toward the center of the grafts, would be tricky. Later, this was found to be a problem even with these standard grafts, and sometimes the hairs in the very center of the graft would die, leading to the appearance of a hole in the middle, hence the term “donutting”.
Other cosmetic problems were soon recognized. Often, a raised area at the base of the graft led to the aptly named “cobblestoning” effect. Probably the most widely recognized negative effect is the so-called “doll’s hair” “toothbrush” or “cornrow” appearance. This results from a dense, round graft set in the midst of bald scalp; the effect is worsened by the fact that, as the graft heals in place, scarring causes it to contract. This increases the density (compresses the hairs into a bundle) even more, to a level not found anywhere on the head, therefore appearing unnatural. When these round grafts were placed at the frontal hairline, they often appeared as an inhumanly straight, regular row, which is not the way hairs grow in nature. Furthermore, if the patient’s balding progressed, these grafts stood out even more, to the point of becoming a cosmetic nightmare. Also, if the hair behind the grafts was lost, there developed an unnatural look further back in the scalp; this appears as a posterior, or “rear” hairline.
In addition, the normal, natural direction of hair growth was not honored. Hair from the crown up to the front grows in a generally forward direction; there is a “whorl”, or circular effect at the crown, and at the temples the hair abruptly changes to a downward, and then backward, direction. Often the large grafts pointed up at right angles regardless of location, which added to the less than natural appearance, and could severely limit styling options.
From a logistical standpoint, grafting with standard plugs could be a nightmare. Usually, these were done in small sessions of 20 to 50 grafts at a time; then sessions were repeated after a period of time. This might require 4 or 5 sessions to “complete” the work; if financial, health, job, or other circumstances supervened, the work might not be finished, leaving the patient in an embarrassing state of incompleteness. Moreover, if baldness progressed, the rear or side margins of the plugs could then be seen by the casual observer.
Finally, using large, round grafts is an extremely inefficient use of the donor hair supply. Much hair is left in the scarred spaces between the circular holes in the donor area. The punch tool must be held perfectly parallel to the angle at which the hair emerges from the scalp; otherwise, many of the hair follicles at the edges of the graft will be transected, or cut in two. This destroys the hair, or, at the very least damages its ability to grow and thrive. Making the punch tools smaller failed to solve the problem the problem of transection; with a smaller graft, an even higher percentage of hairs per graft could be damaged. Likewise, when 4mm grafts were “quartered” or otherwise divided into smaller grafts, this required further trauma and manipulation with resultant follicular damage or destruction.
Many men were happy just to have hair again, and never complained about these cosmetic conundrums, or were aware of the technical limitations. However, certain creative surgeons begin to move toward a higher aesthetic ideal. In the early 1980’s, hair restoration specialists began utilizing minigrafts and micrografts. We define minigrafts as containing 5-10 hairs, and being between 1 and 2.5mm in diameter. Micrografts are smaller still: 1 to 1.5mm, with 1 to 3 hairs. Follicular unit grafts are the naturally occurring growth units of hair, and will be discussed in great detail in subsequent sections.
What were the benefits of these smaller grafts? For one thing, they could be used to “soften” the hairline. The hairline is naturally a feathered, indistinct, and variable entity; it is not abrupt, extremely dense, or regular. Usually, the first row or two of the hairline are single hairs, a “transition zone” between the hairless forehead and the hair-covered scalp. Also, the line is not straight at all, but irregular. Placing these small grafts at the hairline, in front of the larger, round grafts, gave a more pleasing, natural look, especially with the hair swept back or diagonally to the side.
Despite this and other benefits of using mini- and micro-grafting techniques, there was still a major downside (and still is today, as some hair transplant surgeons stubbornly cling to the old but familiar ways). Minigrafts can still produce the artificially high, local density leading to the doll’s hair look; they have a tendency to appear “pluggy”. Also, grafting large areas with micrografts often can give a “see-through” or excessively thinned look. The reason for this is quite important to understand; although a 2 hair follicular unit and a 2 hair micrograft contain the same number of hairs, the devil is in the details; the major detail is in the way they are cut. Follicular units are dissected out intact, using a microscope, and thus have the minimal amount of tissue present to support the hairs. Conversely, micrografts are cut without regard for the follicular unit structure; a 2 or a 3 hair micrograft may contain hairs from as many as 2 or 3 separate follicular units! As such, they contain much more tissue than corresponding follicular units, require larger recipient incisions, or even holes, and cannot be placed as closely together. Healing takes longer with these excess tissue-containing grafts, and their larger incisions, and it may be that breaking up the fundamental unit of hair growth inhibits the very survival of the grafts themselves.


Scalp Flaps

Plastic surgeons have developed methods of advancing hair-bearing “flaps” of tissue from one area of the scalp to another. For example, a strip of scalp from the non-bald temple might be freed up, and rotated forward to the bald frontal hairline. A small area of the flap is left attached in order to preserve the blood supply of the tissue. Unfortunately, sometimes the blood circulation is compromised, leading to tissue necrosis, or death of part of the flap. This can cause visible scarring, as well as loss of the hair (!) from that portion of the flap.
The benefit of flap procedures is that one has an instant “growth” of mature, full-length hair in the previously bald area. There is nothing subtle or gradual here! This may be a social liability if one desires privacy regarding the surgery.
This is major surgery, requiring a hospital operating room. Bleeding and infection are other possible complications. Also, there is a cosmetic downside. A hairline constructed with a flap is likely to be unnaturally straight and overly dense, unlike the natural “feathered” transition zone found in a natural or surgically well-constructed hairline. The inevitable scar at the leading edge of the flap may also be apparent to the observer. Also, there may be thinning or balding scalp behind the flap, which requires camouflage. Alterations from the normal direction of hair growth can appear nothing short of bizarre. Thus we see little benefit and abundant potential for negative outcomes with flap procedures.


Scalp Reductions

These procedures are collectively known as alopecia reductions, baldness reductions, male pattern reductions, and by other names. The basic premise is, that by excising, or cutting out, a segment of bald scalp, the baldness is reduced. This provides an immediate and relatively dramatic improvement in the balding appearance, and the added benefit of less area needing to be grafted. This would limit the strain on the patient’s finite “donor reserves”, meaning the hair available from the permanent zone that can be harvested for grafting. This may seem intuitively obvious at first glance, but consider this: when scalp is removed from the crown area and the top of the head, the sides and back are pulled up in order to approximate the wound and suture it closed. The effect this can have on the donor hair in the back and sides of the head is to decrease the density of this hair.
Other problems that slowly became evident included the phenomenon of stretchback, whereby the natural elastic properties of the scalp skin overcame the tension element of the scalp reduction, and some or all of the benefit would be lost. Hair loss may be accelerated by scalp reductions, in the opinion of some hair surgeons; we definitely know that “shock loss”, or effluvium, can occur around the incision. Some of this shock loss hair may or may not grow back, largely depending on its state of miniaturization.
Scarring is one of the most significant complications seen after scalp reduction. There are a number of incisional patterns that surgeons use: the midline ellipse, Mercedes star, Z-plasty, and lazy-S. The end result of any of these will be a scar in the shape of the sutured wound. This scar may be more or less noticeable depending, in part, on whether there is continued balding in the area, or how closely adjacent to the scar dense hair is found. The fact of the matter is that the patient’s donor density and scalp laxity can be reduced by the procedure. These are two of the determinants of the amount of donor “reserves” remaining. If they are reduced enough, there may not be enough hair left to graft over the scar if it is, or becomes, obvious to the casual observer. This is a major cosmetic problem.
While scalp reductions are often done as series of two or three, some surgeons will substitute for the series by doing one large procedure. This is known as a scalp lift or hair lift. It requires general anesthesia, and essentially undermines the scalp down to the ears and down to the neck. Then, the loose scalp is pulled up, the balding area removed and the wound edges stitched together. It is also standard procedure to ligate, or tie off, the major arteries to the back of the head, called the occipital arteries. Usually, the occipital nerves are sacrificed in the bargain, leading to significant and long lasting scalp numbness.
There are also various types of scalp expanders, both inflatable and spring-type. Both types are surgically implanted, and are designed to stretch the scalp prior to the reduction surgery. Their effects are variable, and although some surgeons seem to do well with their use, many of the same potential drawbacks of scalp reductions may occur.
Two other well-known cosmetic deformities resulting merit mention here. One is the loss of normal hair direction, often manifesting as the “parting of the Red Sea” phenomenon. This occurs because when the scalp is pulled up from the sides, and then becomes situated on top of the head, its hair will still emerge at its native angle. In short, it may appear to stick out to the sides from the midline in an unnatural way, like the biblical parting of the Red Sea. Another is the “posterior slot” formation, which also occurs as the result of scalp reduction surgeries. This “slot” appears as vertical scar running down the crown of the head, with the adjacent hair angled out flatly. This is a very obvious deformity; there is a flap surgery designed just to correct this problem (!), but it is complex and not performed well by many surgeons.
We feel that scalp reduction procedures generally have a very high risk to benefit ratio. As such, we would rarely recommend these surgeries, except in certain selected patients with the ideal hair and scalp characteristics, of the optimal age, and who are highly motivated. With all other factors considered, properly performed follicular unit transplantation (FUT) can produce natural, undetectable results, without cosmetic deformity, in patients who are candidates for this procedure. In the next section, we will discuss, at length, FUT, why and how it is done, the rationale for, and history of, its development, and its potential drawbacks.
 
Immunosuppressents the future in hair loss?

This is an excerpt taken from an article by nanman at nuclearnutrition.com. THIS IS VERY INTERESTING; YOU WON'T BE WASTING YOUR TIME ON THIS READ.

Within it, the author touts the amazing results that can be attained by use of topical tacrolimus. What do you think?
I have personally used it off and on in the form of a compounded solution. I have stopped purchasing it due to the price. However, I think that I can get my hands on the ointment form discussed in the article. Would it be just as effective?

"Immunosuppresants the future in Hair loss???

This just about covers the hormonal mechanisms and their regard to androgenic alopecia . The androgens seem to cause the hair loss by causing the body to see the hair follicles as a foreign body and make the immune system attack them. This effect has been thoroughly covered in the use of the immunosuppresant drug cyclcosporin which is used in organ transplants to stop the body rejecting the organs. One of the most common side effects of cyclosporin is hypertrichosis and in studies cyclosporin has had an 80% sucess rate in reversing alopecia. Unfortunately cyclosorin only worked orally and not topically the reason for this is the high molecular weight of cyclosporin and therefore the lack of topical absorption. Using cyclosproin orally is definitely not recommended as it has many acute side effects. There is another drug with in the class of topical immunospersants which works much better topically due to it's much lower molecular weight this drug is called Tacrolimus (also known as FK506). Tacrolimus (FK506) the best current treatment for hair loss and regrowth Tacrolimus is the current best drug for hair loss in my opinion unfortunately it is not commonly available in topical form though the drug company Fujisawa has an NDA awaiting for tacrolimus for it's use in atopic dermatitis (eczema). Currently the only place which carries tacrolimus is www.communitydrug where it is priced at $130 for 30 mls this price will significantly drop when the official form of the drug from the manufacturer Fujisawa is FDA approved later this year. Tacrolimus for me personally has regrown so much of the hair I have lost over the past few years making my hair loss become hardly noticeable. In the studies it has been used at only once or twice a week I myself have opted to use it 1ml every other day. This is the first drug which works in a way completely aside from hormonal manipulation or through the potassium k channel openers (minoxidil is a drug of this class) and is the best current way to treat hair loss. There is much research on tacrolimus as presented here Title Hair growth-stimulating effects of cyclosporin A and FK506, potent immunosuppressants. Author Yamamoto S; Kato R Address Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, Keio University, Tokyo, Japan. Source J Dermatol Sci, 7 Suppl:1994 Jul, S47-54 Abstract Cyclosporin A (CsA), a cyclic endecapeptide, is a T cell-specific immunosuppressant and is successfully used in the field of organ transplantation. Another T cell-specific immunosuppressant, FK506, a more recently discovered macrolide antibiotic, is effective against graft rejection at much lower doses than CsA. Although totally different in structure, both compounds inhibit T cell activation by interfering with the production of interleukin-2 (IL-2) by inhibiting IL-2 gene expression, probably through the inhibition of calcineurin, a Ca2+/calmodulin-dependent phosphatase. Clinical studies have revealed that FK506 induces a variety of side effects in common with CsA. One of the most common side effects of CsA is hypertrichosis. The hair growth stimulating effect of CsA is observed not only in normal but also in pathological conditions of hair growth, i.e. in patients with alopecia areata and also in some patients with male-pattern alopecia. Although hypertrichosis is induced by both topical and oral administration of CsA, there has been no report showing that FK506 induces hypertrichosis. Recently we have found that topical application of FK506 to skins of mice, rats and hamsters markedly stimulates hair growth. This hair growth stimulating effect of FK506 is observed when applied topically but not by oral administration, even with a dose which causes marked immunosuppression. The hair growth stimulating effect of FK506 in normal animals may apparently be unrelated to its immunosuppressive effect. In vitro studies revealed that FK506 directly stimulates hair follicles. Mechanisms of hair growth stimulating effects of FK506 and CsA remain to be elucidated.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS) Title Effects of cyclosporin A on hair. Author Lutz G Address Department of Dermatology, Rheinische Friedrich-Wilhelms-UniversitÂat, Bonn, FRG. Source Skin Pharmacol, 1994, 7:1-2, 101-4 Abstract Cyclosporin A (CSA) is an immunosuppressive agent that has provided new approaches in transplantation medicine and in the treatment of autoimmune diseases. One of the most common dermatological side effects of oral CSA is dose-dependent hypertrichosis. This stimulating effect on hair growth encouraged a number of investigators to use CSA not only in the treatment of alopecia areata (AA), but also in male pattern alopecia (MPA). While oral application proved successful, the beneficial effect of topical application was very limited in both AA and MPA. Language of Publication Title Hair growth modulation by topical immunophilin ligands: induction of anagen, inhibition of massive catagen development, and relative protection from chemotherapy-induced alopecia. Author Maurer M; Handjiski B; Paus R Address Department of Dermatology, Charité Hospital, Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin, Germany. Source Am J Pathol, 150(4):1433-41 1997 Apr Abstract Selected immunophilin ligands (IPLs) are not only potent immunosuppressants but also modulate hair growth. Their considerable side effects, however, justify at best topical applications of these drugs for the management of clinical hair growth disorders. Therefore, we have explored hair growth manipulation by topical cyclosporin A (CsA) and FK 506 in previously established murine models that mimic premature hair follicle regression (catagen) or chemotherapy-induced alopecia, two major pathomechanisms underlying human hair loss. We confirm that topical CsA and FK 506 induce active hair growth (anagen) in the back skin of C57BL/6 mice with all follicles in the resting stage (telogen) and show that both IPLs also inhibit massive, dexamethasone-induced, premature catagen development in these mice. Furthermore, we demonstrate that CsA and FK 506 provide relative protection from alopecia and follicle dystrophy induced by cyclophosphamide, possibly by favoring the dystrophic anagen pathway of follicle response to chemical damage. Although it remains to be established whether these IPLs exert the same effects on human hair follicles, our study provides proof of the principle that topical IPLs can act as potent manipulators of clinically relevant hair-cycling pathomechanisms. This strongly encourages one to explore the use of topical IPLs in the management of human hair growth disorders. The effects of immunosuppressive peptidyl-prolyl cis-trans isomerase (PPIase) inhibitors, cyclosporin A, FK506, ascomycin and rapamycin, on hair growth initiation (anagen hair induction) in mouse were studied by topical application on the dorsal skin surface during the telogen phase of the hair cycle. Single applications of cyclosporin A and FK506 (10 to 100 nmol in 5 microliters of ethanol) induced new hair growth in 12 days within the restricted area where the compounds were applied. On the other hand, ascomycin and rapamycin did not initiate new anagen hairs even at higher doses (1 mumol in 5 to 10 microliters of ethanol). The effects of simultaneous application of the immunosuppressants were also tested by a single topical application. Ascomycin did not inhibit the anagen hair induction by cyclosporin A, but inhibited hair induction by FK506. Rapamycin inhibited new hair growth induced by cyclosporin A and FK506. These results suggest that the inhibition of PPIase is not required for the initiation of a new hair cycle in mice, and that anagen hair induction caused by cyclosporin A and FK506 is not a result of immunosuppression. The present results also indicate that a single application of an adequate quantity of cyclosporin A and FK506 is sufficient to initiate new hair growth Fujisawa Contact: Maribeth Landwehr Communications (847) 317-8988 FUJISAWA HEALTHCARE, INC. SUBMITS NDA FOR MUCH ANTICIPATED DERMATOLOGY PRODUCT Deerfield, Ill., September 9, 1999 -- Fujisawa Healthcare, Inc. (Fujisawa) announced today that a New Drug Application (NDA) has been submitted to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for a new topical dermatology product. The submission seeks approval for the use of tacrolimus ointment in the treatment of atopic dermatitis.

Atopic dermatitis, commonly known as eczema, is a chronic skin disorder characterized by inflammation, itching, and scaling. It is estimated by the National Institutes of Health that more than 15 million people in the U.S. have symptoms of atopic dermatitis, with a significant presence in the pediatric population. Tacrolimus ointment Phase III clinical trials were completed in March 1999. More than 1,000 patients suffering from atopic dermatitis participated in the study. Participants were treated at more than 40 clinical sites in the U.S. and ranged in age from two to 79. Of these patients, one-third were children under the age of 15. In approximately one-fifth of the patients, this condition involved or covered more than 75 percent of their bodies. Topical tacrolimus is the first new therapy to specifically treat atopic dermatitis in over 40 years. "Sufferers of atopic dermatitis have been looking for a new form of relief for many years. Our tacrolimus ointment may provide an important additional treatment option for these patients and their families," said Ira Lawrence, M.D, vice president, research and development. "We are confident in the data included in this NDA and are hopeful that the FDA will reach a favorable conclusion at the end of their review. Fujisawa's worldwide corporate mission is to contribute to healthier, more prosperous lives for people around the world by exploring the frontiers of human health and disease. We feel tacrolimus ointment will assist in the fulfillment of that mission," stated Noboru Maeda, chairman and chief executive officer, Fujisawa Healthcare, Inc. Tacrolimus ointment will be manufactured for distribution in Fujisawa's Grand Island, N.Y. facility. Production has already begun for use in Japan, where tacrolimus ointment recently was approved for the treatment of atopic dermatitis under the brand name ProtopicÒ . Protopic is expected to be launched in Japan later this year.
"
 
Hey bro,
I'm running the tacrolimus thing by a dermatopathology buddy to get the full story. Sounds a little suspect on first read. I'll let you know.
 
Very interesting read buffdoc. Just one question regarding genetic predisposition to balding, I gather from this post that there really is no way to predict if you're going to go bald or not. So the common statement that hair loss is a maternal trait is a myth?
 
According to this study there is no medication that is really effective against hairloss in the hairline and frontal zone. I lost some hair in the temples during my first cycle.

My concern for the next cycle, which will be test and eq, is that proscar will not be effective against hairloss in the hairline.

I will also add nizoral, spiro and azleic azid (spelling).

Any comments regarding this from people that have this kind of hairloss pattern and used proscar and other supplements is greatly appreciated!
 
DeepZenPill said:
Very interesting read buffdoc. Just one question regarding genetic predisposition to balding, I gather from this post that there really is no way to predict if you're going to go bald or not. So the common statement that hair loss is a maternal trait is a myth?


In a word, yes. There is no truly accurate way to predict onset or extent of hairloss. The maternal thing is a myth.
 
Fredde said:
According to this study there is no medication that is really effective against hairloss in the hairline and frontal zone. I lost some hair in the temples during my first cycle.

My concern for the next cycle, which will be test and eq, is that proscar will not be effective against hairloss in the hairline.

I will also add nizoral, spiro and azleic azid (spelling).

Any comments regarding this from people that have this kind of hairloss pattern and used proscar and other supplements is greatly appreciated!

It's not really a study. It's my writing, interpreting the current data for you. Finasteride may indeed help with hairline and frontal loss, it's just been shown to be more effective against crown loss. Likewise for minoxidil.
No one has studied whether finasteride will get the levels of DHT down significantly during a cycle, where test levels are very supraphysiologic. We know that 1 mg of finasteride will dramatically reduce levels of 5-AR, and thus DHT after just 24-48 hours. But, if test level is at 3500, for example, will that cut it? I don't know if anyone knows.
We're really on uncharted waters here. I would thnik that doing whatever possible that does not cause harm would be in order: finasteride, Nizoral, topicals, etc.
 
drveejay11 said:


Hmmm...
There are some inaccuracies in what is said that make me a little skeptical. Plus, why haven't I heard about this at any of the hair loss meetings or in our newsletters? Intriguing, however.
But $500/month! yeow!
What really is exciting is the work being done on follicular cloning. What limits hair transplant surgeons from achieving adolescent-level density in balding patients is the finite nature of the donor area. When (not if) hair cloning technology becomes workable, (probably 5 to 10 years), then a small sample from the patient's permanent donor area will produce limitless donor hair. Then $ and the patient's desire will be the only major limiting factors in the achievement of great density in the vulnerable areas.
 
I am using 15% minoxidil on my hairline with success. I can see little fuzzies in the right light. As time has gone on, the fuzzies have turned into dark hairs, and my hairline at the sides of my temple has/is advanced(ing)
 
what about saw palmetto? I have read that it blocks the effects of DHT and is excellent for preventing hair loss.
 
biteme said:
what about saw palmetto? I have read that it blocks the effects of DHT and is excellent for preventing hair loss.

Bump to that. I heard that too and I take Saw while on for several reasons.

Great info.
 
notatrase said:
I am using 15% minoxidil on my hairline with success. I can see little fuzzies in the right light. As time has gone on, the fuzzies have turned into dark hairs, and my hairline at the sides of my temple has/is advanced(ing)

That's great! Just remember, if you stop using it, your genetically programmed hair loss will catch up with you rather quickly. With the currently available meds, we have to be willing to commit for life, (but just a day at a time!)
 
biteme said:
what about saw palmetto? I have read that it blocks the effects of DHT and is excellent for preventing hair loss.

Actually, it doesn't block DHT effects. It's probably a weak 5-AR inhibitor, therefore decreases DHT formation. Not proven to work on hair loss by any good studies I'm aware of, but probably works to some degree for both BPH and androgenetic alopecia. Think of it as weak finasteride. Anybody have other evidence on this one?
 
saint1 said:
Will the hair that starts to grow when using minoxidil fall out if you stop using it?


If the hair loss is due to MPB or androgenetic alopecia, then yes, yes, yes. You will lose what you have gained quite rapidly (w/in months). See my response above regarding life long commitment to hair loss meds.
 
hey doc,

you just made my week with this post. Knowing that they're doing hair cloning and that'll be a matter just made my life so much happier :) question for you, i didn't have time to throughly read the whole thing, saved it for later, but how good do the latest treatments look? can you give me a price range? i know it'll vary but a ball park figure is all i'm looking for. I've got a full head of hair and it don't look like it's going anywhere soon, but it's great to know that i won't have to worry about it. thanks
 
Hey Buffdoc,

Good post man, little long haha but informative for the general guy who knows nothing about hairloss.

I just wanna set straight a couple of things here because I have been following hairloss treatments and learning about the underlying causes for a few years now.

A good place to go is the newsgroup alt.baldspot, you can find a lot of information there just by doing a search of past posts, although recently the group has gone to shit with all kinds of trolling.

Fact- Saw palmetto does next to nothing for hairloss and in some cases can accelerate it.

Fact- tacrolimus was the rage a couple years ago... people tried it, and it did nothing for hairloss, plus it is very expensive

You talk about finasteride/proscar/propecia.

There is a new drug that was just released last month called Dutasteride under the brand name Avodart. This drug is basically a better finasteride. It blocks 90% of dht opposed to around 70% by finasteride, because it blocks BOTH types of dht (1 and 2). Finasteride only blocks type 2.

You can get a rx for this drug and read more about it at:

http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/prices/drugprice.asp?ndc=00173071200&trx=1

They will call it into any pharmacy you chose for about $80 and the great part is that they don't call it in as "off label" use, so most insurance providers will cover it leaving you with a small co-pay.

These are THE ONLY PROVEN MEDICATIONS/TREATMENTS FOR HAIRLOSS...PERIOD (do NOT waste time or especially money on ANYTHING else):

#1- finasteride

#2-dutasteride

#3- minoxidil (use 5%, anything else is likely overkill)

#4- nizoral shampoo (highly overrated especially by bodybuilders, this is not a good hairloss medication by itself but may help with some inflamation due to male pattern baldness. This is a good add on to the above medications because it is cheap. Use the 2% you can order it online.

#5- spironolactone (like nizoral highly overrated but a good add on. THis shit has been around for decades and if it really stopped hairloss we wouldn't be dealing with the bullshit today. This is again cheap as hell to make yourself but not too expensive to order premade either at www.minoxidil.com. This should not be used as the backbone of your treatment, but is a good add on to the above finasteride or dutasteride because it will help mop up any left over DHT or other androgens on the scalp.

#6- S.O.D.'s (super-oxide dismutase found in products like folligen or tricomin, also found in the overpriced shit Dr. Proctor sells...called proxifen, which is just basically spiro mixed with minoxidil and SOD's. If you can afford tricomin or folligen then buy it as a bonus, but this shit isn't great by any means. If you have cash to blow go ahead and maybe grow a couple more hairs.

Ok, SO now everyone knows what to use, so use this information and save your hair fror the love of god and do not fall victim to hype about the newest herbal shampoo or wack ass snake oil treatment...because the next thing to come thyats legit in hairloss will most likely be a cure (within 5 years), transplants aside...don't fuck your heads up with transplants they look like shit anyway just wait till you can regrow your hair!!!

PEACE
 
thankgodformexico said:
Hey Buffdoc,

Good post man, little long haha but informative for the general guy who knows nothing about hairloss.

I just wanna set straight a couple of things here because I have been following hairloss treatments and learning about the underlying causes for a few years now.

A good place to go is the newsgroup alt.baldspot, you can find a lot of information there just by doing a search of past posts, although recently the group has gone to shit with all kinds of trolling.

Fact- Saw palmetto does next to nothing for hairloss and in some cases can accelerate it.

Fact- tacrolimus was the rage a couple years ago... people tried it, and it did nothing for hairloss, plus it is very expensive

You talk about finasteride/proscar/propecia.

There is a new drug that was just released last month called Dutasteride under the brand name Avodart. This drug is basically a better finasteride. It blocks 90% of dht opposed to around 70% by finasteride, because it blocks BOTH types of dht (1 and 2). Finasteride only blocks type 2.

You can get a rx for this drug and read more about it at:

http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/prices/drugprice.asp?ndc=00173071200&trx=1

They will call it into any pharmacy you chose for about $80 and the great part is that they don't call it in as "off label" use, so most insurance providers will cover it leaving you with a small co-pay.

These are THE ONLY PROVEN MEDICATIONS/TREATMENTS FOR HAIRLOSS...PERIOD (do NOT waste time or especially money on ANYTHING else):

#1- finasteride

#2-dutasteride

#3- minoxidil (use 5%, anything else is likely overkill)

#4- nizoral shampoo (highly overrated especially by bodybuilders, this is not a good hairloss medication by itself but may help with some inflamation due to male pattern baldness. This is a good add on to the above medications because it is cheap. Use the 2% you can order it online.

#5- spironolactone (like nizoral highly overrated but a good add on. THis shit has been around for decades and if it really stopped hairloss we wouldn't be dealing with the bullshit today. This is again cheap as hell to make yourself but not too expensive to order premade either at www.minoxidil.com. This should not be used as the backbone of your treatment, but is a good add on to the above finasteride or dutasteride because it will help mop up any left over DHT or other androgens on the scalp.

#6- S.O.D.'s (super-oxide dismutase found in products like folligen or tricomin, also found in the overpriced shit Dr. Proctor sells...called proxifen, which is just basically spiro mixed with minoxidil and SOD's. If you can afford tricomin or folligen then buy it as a bonus, but this shit isn't great by any means. If you have cash to blow go ahead and maybe grow a couple more hairs.

Ok, SO now everyone knows what to use, so use this information and save your hair fror the love of god and do not fall victim to hype about the newest herbal shampoo or wack ass snake oil treatment...because the next thing to come thyats legit in hairloss will most likely be a cure (within 5 years), transplants aside...don't fuck your heads up with transplants they look like shit anyway just wait till you can regrow your hair!!!

PEACE


Actually, Dr White, one of the most well known dermatological researchers on hair loss said at our meeting in Chicago, that any topical anti-androgen was essentially worthless, because so much DHT was continually delivered via the systemic circulation, so antagonizing it locally was for the birds. Who knows? But you're saying this is "proven?" (spiro)
Also, please be careful about posting information as "Fact". Did you read my thread on scientific evidence? If not, I suggest you do. There are shitloads of hair loss websites out there (I've lurked on some) and a lot of questionable info gets posted, often backed up by specious claims and "reliable" studies. Take it w/ a grain of salt.
Also, on dutasteride. Is it really a "better" finasteride just because it's newer and more "powerful", and hits both 5-AR types? Does decreasing levels of 5-AR an extra 20% actually translate clinically into increased hair growth? The data isn't there. And dutasteride has been released for BPH, not for hair loss. The only clinically "proven" hair loss meds at this point are finasteride and minoxidil. End of story. Not to say the others are w/out merit. I use Nizoral 3 times a week myself.
Also, dutasteride has an extremely long half life (like months!). So if you're one of the unlucky ones with side effects... You see my point. Of course Glaxo is drooling over the potential "off-label" profits, and wants to minimze any potential for side effects. I don't NECESSARILY buy that.
Finally, about hair transplants, there are some incredible and ethical surgeons out there doing undetectable and aestheticlly beautiful work. These are the transplants you don't see and never know about! It's really irresponsible to say what you did about transplants; also, we don't "know" if a cure, or hair cloning, or any of this is on the immedicate horizon.
So watch it w/ the "Facts".
 
harddtime said:
hey doc,

you just made my week with this post. Knowing that they're doing hair cloning and that'll be a matter just made my life so much happier :) question for you, i didn't have time to throughly read the whole thing, saved it for later, but how good do the latest treatments look? can you give me a price range? i know it'll vary but a ball park figure is all i'm looking for. I've got a full head of hair and it don't look like it's going anywhere soon, but it's great to know that i won't have to worry about it. thanks


You mean like transplants and so forth? Usually $3-$7 per graft, anywhere from 400 to 4000 grafts depending on degree of loss. If you've got a good head of hair you're ahead of the game. Don't sweat it.
 
Buffdoc, have you gathered any info on tacrolimus, or protopic ointment?
Also, has anyone else thought about the fact that is a cure for balding is invented, WE, who are balding now, will be the last bald people on earth. SHIT, THAT SUCKS!
 
Buffdoc,

I realise I used the word fact a little irresponsibly. What I meant to say was that saw palmetto does not effictively hault hairloss in the majority of people who take it.

Dr. Lee who runs minoxidil.com prescribed tacrolimus to some of his local patients a couple years ago when all the hype was surrounding it, to see if it grew hair before prescribing it on his website. He observed very dissapointing results from it and decided not to prescribe it. This was the same case for some of the baldspot regulars who got there hands on it. It looks really good on paper but doesn't grow hair.

I said that spiro was by no means a good treatment by itself but may help with the 5ar inhibitors. And it actually has been used ti treat hairloss for decades and there are studies showing that it is an effective topical anti-androgen....just doesn't work great for hairloss.

Yes, dutasteride DOES regrow more hair than finasteride, this is a fact and the results of the glaxo studies from the dutasteride hair loss trials show this...I don't have the graphs handy but you can find them on their website I'm sure. Most likely Glaxo decided that they wouldn't make a large enough profit from releasig the drug for hairloss due to mercks dissapointing sales with propecia.
 
What do you guys think about adding crushed spiro tabs to minoxidil, thereby killing two birds with one stone? I've tried it, and because the combo is so unstable, it stinks to high heaven unless to you keep it refridgerated. Still, the smell tends to disapear a little while after application. What I'm wondering is whether mixing the two renders both or either of them inactive. Thanks muchly.
 
Yes, dutasteride DOES regrow more hair than finasteride, this is a fact and the results of the glaxo studies from the dutasteride hair loss trials show this...I don't have the graphs handy but you can find them on their website I'm sure. Most likely Glaxo decided that they wouldn't make a large enough profit from releasig the drug for hairloss due to mercks dissapointing sales with propecia. [/B][/QUOTE]


No, this makes no sense at all. I understand your enthusiasm, believe me. But Glaxo would have made a fortune marketing dutasteride for hairloss, more than they will for BPH, if they could prove long term, significantly better results than finasteride. The meat of the studies is at 2 years and beyond. There is now 5 year data on finasteride.
My understanding is that the Phase 3 clinical trials on hairloss w/ dutasteride were terminated because of... side effects. Remember the extremely long half-life of dutasteride?
 
thankgodformexico said:

This is a Phase 2 trial, also what is the "n", or sample size, is it enough for significance?
Bro, look at your study length: it's 24 weeks, you really can't say "that's a fact" about dutasteride's superiority to finasteride. I'm sorry, and again, I relate to your enthusiasm, but you just cant make that leap.
 
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A post above inquires about creating a solution of minoxidil and sprironolactone. What are your thoughts on a monixidil/flutamide mix?
 
Buffdoc,

I really am failing to see how there is proof lacking that dutasteride is a superior 5ar inhibitor. It has been released to treat BPH for this sole fact. If it wasn't going to outperform finasteride glaxo would not stand to gain by persuing it. It outperforms finasteride singnificantly at 3 AND 6 months, inhibiting dht at 90%.

It blocks not only BOTH enzymes, but it even dose better at blocking the type 2 than finasteride does (partly because of it's longer half life, like you have brought up.) Dht levels remain about the same around the clock on dutasteride, whereas they spike after 12hours with finasteride (leading some people to opt to take it twice daily). This is probably one of the reasons that it outperforms finasteride REGROWING HAIR, dual 5ar inhibition aside.

We still do not know if the phase 3 trials for hairloss will happen but it was put on hold for whatever reason. No one knows for sure why they did it, so to say it was because of side effects is speculative.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to get rid of as much dht as possible when it comes to hairloss, even at the expense of a possible slight increase in sexual side effects, which can be countered other ways. Especially when in the case of many people on this board you are going to be puting synthetic testosterone into your body in mass quantity. The less coversion via 5ar the better, wouldn't you think?

I would also point out that the type 1 5ar is highly involved with sebum production in the skin/scalp, so it has potential to reduce acne as well as leave a less oily environment on the scalp preventing exsessive sebum build up which can help decrease the inflamitory process of mpb.

This is science here man, backed by studies, I'm not making any great leaps or being overly inthusiastic. Dutasteride simply IS a better 5ar antagonist, DOES regrow more hair than both finasteride and minoxidil. This is not opinion.

BTW, I'm sure you know that a handful of educated people were using finasteride by taking proscar years before it was ever in the pipeline to be marketed for hairloss as propecia. Just because a drug has only been approved by the fda to treat one ailment, does not mean that it doesn't effectively treat another ailment who's underlying mechanisms are related. Dr.'s prescribe drugs for off label use all the time, for a variety of reasons with effective results.

Please don't prevent anyone here from persuing better treatments that are scientifically backed in research to treat their hairloss. MPB is a horrid, horrid curse some of us are bestowed with and I like to see everyone get the best information possible.
 
Sigh...
I give up. You are failing to see my points. I don't want to deprive anyone of effective treatments. I have hair loss, too. But your reasoning is full of holes, is specious, and I'm suggesting we all become more critical in our evalulations. If you have ANY real experience in evaluating scientific studies, put it into play, with a critical eye and get back to me.




thankgodformexico said:
Buffdoc,

I really am failing to see how there is proof lacking that dutasteride is a superior 5ar inhibitor. It has been released to treat BPH for this sole fact. If it wasn't going to outperform finasteride glaxo would not stand to gain by persuing it. It outperforms finasteride singnificantly at 3 AND 6 months, inhibiting dht at 90%.

It blocks not only BOTH enzymes, but it even dose better at blocking the type 2 than finasteride does (partly because of it's longer half life, like you have brought up.) Dht levels remain about the same around the clock on dutasteride, whereas they spike after 12hours with finasteride (leading some people to opt to take it twice daily). This is probably one of the reasons that it outperforms finasteride REGROWING HAIR, dual 5ar inhibition aside.

We still do not know if the phase 3 trials for hairloss will happen but it was put on hold for whatever reason. No one knows for sure why they did it, so to say it was because of side effects is speculative.

I don't understand why you wouldn't want to get rid of as much dht as possible when it comes to hairloss, even at the expense of a possible slight increase in sexual side effects, which can be countered other ways. Especially when in the case of many people on this board you are going to be puting synthetic testosterone into your body in mass quantity. The less coversion via 5ar the better, wouldn't you think?

I would also point out that the type 1 5ar is highly involved with sebum production in the skin/scalp, so it has potential to reduce acne as well as leave a less oily environment on the scalp preventing exsessive sebum build up which can help decrease the inflamitory process of mpb.

This is science here man, backed by studies, I'm not making any great leaps or being overly inthusiastic. Dutasteride simply IS a better 5ar antagonist, DOES regrow more hair than both finasteride and minoxidil. This is not opinion.

BTW, I'm sure you know that a handful of educated people were using finasteride by taking proscar years before it was ever in the pipeline to be marketed for hairloss as propecia. Just because a drug has only been approved by the fda to treat one ailment, does not mean that it doesn't effectively treat another ailment who's underlying mechanisms are related. Dr.'s prescribe drugs for off label use all the time, for a variety of reasons with effective results.

Please don't prevent anyone here from persuing better treatments that are scientifically backed in research to treat their hairloss. MPB is a horrid, horrid curse some of us are bestowed with and I like to see everyone get the best information possible.
 
Buffdoc,

I'll just wait until they go ahead with the phase 3 trials in march of this year and hopefully the results will be clear enough for you, because the phase 2 trial obviously isn't enough.

I don't exactly know which scientific study you are referring to as far as me misinterpreting. If you'd like a can post a bunch showing dutasterides superiority to finasteride as a 5ar antagonist. I'm not really sure what you are refuting exactly, whether it IS a better 5ar antagonist, or whether it is a better drug for hairloss. The former is a black and white fact, a result from multiple double blind studies by SCIENTISTS. The latter is not solid enough for you because you don't know exactly how many subjects were in the control group and 6 months isn't an acceptable duration of time for you to draw a conclusion I guess.

I also don't see what is "scientific"about speculating about nasty side effects based on something you heard?? Where is the science in that?

This will be my last attempt to get through to you. You just keep replying with generalized statements, nothing factual, nothing scientific of your own. I am the one who has provided the trial results, and I am willing to post the rest of the studies as well. Until you can provide me with something specific, for example how I am misreading a study, which study it is, show me a study of your own with different results, or even explain to me what your point is SPECIFICLY (what I am not being critical enough about) then this is useless. PLease enlighten me.
 
thankgodformexico said:
Buffdoc,


This will be my last attempt to get through to you. You just keep replying with generalized statements, nothing factual, nothing scientific of your own. I am the one who has provided the trial results, and I am willing to post the rest of the studies as well. Until you can provide me with something specific, for example how I am misreading a study, which study it is, show me a study of your own with different results, or even explain to me what your point is SPECIFICLY (what I am not being critical enough about) then this is useless. PLease enlighten me.



Your arrogance is impressive. Now, where is your degree from and in what?
I don't need to be "gotten though" to. We are obviously not communicating from anywhere near the same knowledge base. There is a difference between simply reading studies off the internet and buying into the conclusions the drug companies make, and in having a more in-depth understanding of the workings of clinical and basic science research, as well as the requirements for staistical significance and what that means. Do you possess that awareness?
I have not said that dut is not a superior 5-AR inhibitor than fin. What I HAVE said is that this does not necessarily translate to long-term, improved clinical results. We simply don't have the data to show that. If you even understood the research process, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is not about what studies you "have" or I need to "show" you; it's about your less than complete understanding about how we INTERPRET said studies.
Also, your naive idea that a drug company such as Glaxo would only release a drug, dutasteride for example, if it were definitely superior to it's competition, is laughable. Every month, new drugs are released soley for the purpose of grabbing a piece of market share. Pursuit of FDA approval does NOT necessarily imply a superior product in any way, shape or form.
Again, I'm not here to attack your beloved dutasteride (it may turn out to be great, and I'll definitely prescribe it and use it personally, if that be the case). Nor am I here to tell you "your" studies are flawed; just that you don't seem
to have even the basic graduate student's grasp of the interpretation of scientific data. I can't be any more "specific" than that, because the problem is a general one on your part.
 
I'm not trying to be arrogant at all.

"I have not said that dut is not a superior 5-AR inhibitor than fin. What I HAVE said is that this does not necessarily translate to long-term, improved clinical results. We simply don't have the data to show that."

That's all I was trying to get from you, and you are 100% right. We don't have long term data on dutasteride so we don't know how it will do in the long run, but then again the 5 year finast results were released not too long ago and people have been using it from the get go.

I understand that there is a definite limit on the success of anti-androgens to treat hairloss. Even castrated males do not regrow any hair although the mpb process ceases. I don't claim to be a doctor or a scientist at all, just trying to contribute something that might be a hopeful new treatment for mpb (even if it is only slightly better).

IMO I would rather spend less money on dutasteride than proscar and have the extra comfort of knowing that I am eliminating as much dht as I possibly can. I was just having a hard time understanding your sceptisism and trying to see why you felt that way. Assuming that the side effects aren't marginally higher than finasteride, will you try it yourself or prescribe it for your patients? You could do your own personal trial and draw a first hand conclusion. What is there to lose?
 
Anyone know of other internet sites to obtain Avodart?

Since its obviously not a scheduled substance I was wondering if there were any other websites anyone had come across to order Avodart from w/o the "internet consultation fee". For a long time I have ordered my ancillary meds from sites such as MedsMex which does not have this extra fee, but sadly they do not currently offer Avodart. Even if dutesteride is unproven in the long term I for one would be willing to try it. If the main side effect is a depressed sex drive I'm sure its not as acute as doing a fina only cycle, and even if it is so be it. Its much easier to study when not obsessing on female ass all the time. :D
 
IMO I would rather spend less money on dutasteride than proscar and have the extra comfort of knowing that I am eliminating as much dht as I possibly can. I was just having a hard time understanding your sceptisism and trying to see why you felt that way. Assuming that the side effects aren't marginally higher than finasteride, will you try it yourself or prescribe it for your patients? You could do your own personal trial and draw a first hand conclusion. What is there to lose? [/B][/QUOTE]


That's a thought, but I don't know. I'm still a little leary of the long half life, maybe that's just my personal paranoia.
As to eliminating as much DHT as possible, another thing I'm interested to know is if either of these 5-AR inhibitors can really do the job (or at least keep DHT levels w/in normal limits) when people are using AAS, and have supraphysiologic levels. If not, then those who juice would seem to be at the mercy of their own genetics.
What do you think?
 
"That's a thought, but I don't know. I'm still a little leary of the long half life, maybe that's just my personal paranoia.

I'm guessing and others have speculated that the long half life might be one of the reasons it performs better than finast (at least according to glaxo's phase 2 trial), dht levels spike a bit after 12 hours with finast where dut keeps them consistantly lower around the clock.

"As to eliminating as much DHT as possible, another thing I'm interested to know is if either of these 5-AR inhibitors can really do the job (or at least keep DHT levels w/in normal limits) when people are using AAS, and have supraphysiologic levels. If not, then those who juice would seem to be at the mercy of their own genetics.
What do you think?"

This is the million dollar question, and I have no idea. Your guess would be better than mine. I think it would be awsome if either drug was able to keep dht within the norm while on a cycle, but I have a gut feeling that they probably just help dampen the blow some. I'm in early week 3 of a 500mg test/400mg deca cycle and I am starting to notice that tell-tale itching that is indicative of thr notorious mpb (at least in my case).

I tried to guess at this a while ago using what is probably errored logic but I was wondering if you could figure it out like this. Taking the normal daily natural amount of test production by the body which I believe is around 5-7mg...figuring that finasteride reduces around 70% dht...then just subtracting 70% of the 5-7mg to get a hypothetical amount of dht in mg (the left over 30%)that would be left to circulate (not even accounting for any test to est conversion via aromatase). Then take 500mg test which I am on weekly, divide by 7 (days in the week), get a daily amount in mg and do the same thing to get a figure in mg. I'm sure this method is highly flawed, but just for the hell of it...by this method you get like 2.1mg left over dht by the body without added test, as opposed to around 21mg with the added 500mg test. This was the only way I could figure to even just guess at comparing the two and I have no idea if you can even calculate it this way.
 
Actually, it doesn't block DHT effects. It's probably a weak 5-AR inhibitor, therefore decreases DHT formation. Not proven to work on hair loss by any good studies I'm aware of, but probably works to some degree for both BPH and androgenetic alopecia. Think of it as weak finasteride. Anybody have other evidence on this one?

Most of what I have read regarding saw palmetto inidcates that its 5-ar inhibition properties are very low to non-existant at typical dosages. SP is extraordinarily effective at relieving symptoms of BPH, whether androgen induced or not. This quality seems to be the result of some pathway other than androgen receptor. It also lowers PSA levels significantly after several days of administration. As you are most likely aware, there are no conclusive studies definatively linking one's PSA level to suceptibility of prostate cancer. This substance is the preferred course of treatment over finasteride for BPH in europe.
 
Did you even read my entire post? Whatever you think you "know" about hair, it doesn't show in your comments.
I put up this post and it was made sticky so that people could understand a little about about androgenetic alopecia and some of the medical and surgical options currently available, not so that someone who has done some "research" on hair loss websites could throw out a lot of misinformation and promote techniques that are still in the development stages, at best.
Also, if you are going to slag "hair transplant butchers", why, oh why are you linking to a Bosley site, for God's sake? Are you aware of the legal problems they've had recently?
There are many ethical, extremely expert hair surgeons in this country doing state of the art work; your implications are poorly researched and lack validity.
Get your facts straight, and please don't add any more BS to an educational post.
 
Please don't post anymore on this thread. If you must continue your diatribes, please start a new thread.
Your level of ignorance and arrogance is astounding. Yes, there ARE docs doing FUE in the US. In fact, I assisted one of them with one less than 10 days ago. NHI is also doing it, as are others. But I suppose you have another ad hominim attack that will refute that as well. You're operating on old information, yet you claim to be intimately familiar w/ what is "state of the art".
Please don't presume to tell me to "get my facts straight." BTW, had you read my post, you would have noticed that I did mention hair cloning, and that I went into some detail about the necessity for taking multiple factors into consideration before considering transplantation. Also, have you ever seen a properly performed strip excision scar? Or are you just a "chat room expert?" Or worse, someone truly mangled by an incompetent surgeon who now has an agenda with the entire field of hair surgery? Please know that for every one of you, there are many, many happy and satisfied transplant recipients.
As for "my" creams and topicals, please tell me where and when I have been "pushing" these as if they are a cure?
Where was your last post misleading? As I said, you cannot dangle development stage research in front of people as though you are some kind of an "insider" because of commercial websites you read or chat rooms you visit. I go to the international meetings and hear the current reasearch first hand; I think that puts me in a little better position than you to make rational statements about what's "coming up" in the near future, technology-wise.
Lastly, you say we need to put the billion dollar "strip hair transplant butchers" out of business; then you act like Bosley is the second coming because of their commitment to research? Come on, you can't have it both ways! They're either butchers or saviors, tell us which.
 
No, I am not a tech or an assistant, I am an MD. What were your credentials again? Please answer so I know if we are conversing on the same plane of understanding or not.
No, you're not taking away from my "show"; you're just showing your ignorance and making an ass of yourself. Please go away or start a new thread.
 
Am I to understand that I could potentially and most likely lose hair on my very first cycle of Winstrol or Anavar (That I ams tarting next week) first cycle ever.......23 years old.......:confused:

I was led to believe that this type of thing was reserved for people who use juice ona regular basis after an extendid period of time......I understood that there was always the potential for sides.....but I thought that was more along the lines of a few out of a thousand....those kinda odds. I dont like this :(
 
okay, thats really a mature thing to do.... edit my posts and delete everything i wrote so nobody can read the truth and info i had compiled. fellow elites thank him for doing so! im sure elite people can determine on their own what to take with a grain of salt, and what is the truth.

Buff Doc, you think because i have only 20 something posts, that it accounts to my credibility? So you take it apon yourself to edit my posts? i presume elite does not allow freedom of speach? no it doesn't work like that wether i have 200000 or 20 posts. sorry i do not have time to frequent this site all the time (good for you so people dont get distracted from the buff doctor show.... that way you wont throw a fit) bad for elite because people like you edit other's posts which had No swearing, no instigation (besides a good arguement) and i wasn't threatening anyone.... so whatever i'm not writing the info again, i've got a full head of hair.. im not worrying, and if you want to tell people to get "state of the art hair transplants", when hair cloning is only a few years away..... then i hope to god that they do not regret their decision, because there is no going back! Shave your head and live with it if you can, dont do anything stupid!
 
SlimeyPete said:
Am I to understand that I could potentially and most likely lose hair on my very first cycle of Winstrol or Anavar (That I ams tarting next week) first cycle ever.......23 years old.......:confused:

I was led to believe that this type of thing was reserved for people who use juice ona regular basis after an extendid period of time......I understood that there was always the potential for sides.....but I thought that was more along the lines of a few out of a thousand....those kinda odds. I dont like this :(



Pete,
Was there something in my original post that made you think this? No, you won't necessarily lose hair just from doing AAS; you must have the genetic predisposition in order for androgens to work their mischief on the hair.
On the other hand, it is possible (although not probable) to have a telogen effluvium, where there is some shedding of hair as a response to stress. This is unusual, especially in men.
Have you lost any hair thus far, without AAS?
 
buffdoc... i have a quick one for you...

Are there noticeable variances in the effects of finasteride when you deviate from the recommended 1mg/day dose?

To what extent is more better, and to what extent is less effective?

Also, I have been on 1mg/day of finasteride for three years. When I first started taking it, i was a limp biscuit. The side effects subsided after about 9 months. I have had no sides since with the exception of a mild lessening of libido (not performance, though).

BUT, i think the 3% figure is Merck's. 3% that have complete loss of sexual function, perhaps, but a much higher percent will experience some sexual side effects (loss of libido, etc.).
 
sorry to bump a sticky, but i would like to hear from buffdoc and for some reason the topic list still has him listed as the last poster, so i doubt he knows there is a question waiting.
 
Puc said:
buffdoc... i have a quick one for you...

Are there noticeable variances in the effects of finasteride when you deviate from the recommended 1mg/day dose?

To what extent is more better, and to what extent is less effective?

Also, I have been on 1mg/day of finasteride for three years. When I first started taking it, i was a limp biscuit. The side effects subsided after about 9 months. I have had no sides since with the exception of a mild lessening of libido (not performance, though).

BUT, i think the 3% figure is Merck's. 3% that have complete loss of sexual function, perhaps, but a much higher percent will experience some sexual side effects (loss of libido, etc.).


Hey bro,
It seems that with higher doses, eg, 2.5 or 5 mg per day, the results in terms of hair loss were not significantly better, sides were higher. In fact, some docs, including my teacher/mentor, will often recommend EOD or even 2-3X/week dosing at 1 mg. He will do this especially if the person is experiencing sides.
Yeah, I've often wondered about Merck's sides reporting; I have no great trust in drug company ethics! This is one of the reasons I've been hesitant to recommend Glaxo's dutasteride (possibility of worse sides, definitely much longer half life than finasteride).
Now, the 3% was ANY sexual dysfunction, and I believe there was a lower (1-2%?) incidence of erectile dsyfunction. Don't have the data right here in front of me. Also, there was a fairly brisk pass-through: those with sexual sides who continued the med, had the sides resolve pretty quickly (unlike you). In my experience w/ patients, and with my self (I take 1mg ED), sides are pretty low.
In you case, I'd have switched you to EOD strightaway, and seen what happened.
There was a guy on this or another board who argued me blue in the face that dutasteride was a much more powerful 5AR inhibitor, (which it IS), and would therefore be hands-down the better drug. Sides did not seem to be much of an issue w/ him. I wish he could talk to you.
In short, however, there is some dose-dependency in side effects.
 
I doubt the 3% because of the 4 people who i know who used it, all had at least minor sides and 2 (including myself) went limp for a time.

Oh well... it sucked for a couple months, but it 3 years later, and my hair loss has slowed to a crawl. If I wouldn't have done it, i might have popped a couple more girls then, but i would not be now.:D
 
drveejay11 said:
What's up Buffdoc ;)

How long away did you say cloning would be availible? 5 years?


Yeah, roughly, from what I got at the last meeting ( and this was from the research scientists, not from some clinical doc's website who's trying to make a name for himself). That will be so cool, because, at this point, what limits our ability as transplant surgeons in giving men, even very young men, the DENSITY they want, is the finite nature of the donor area. There is only a limited number of follicular units that can be taken from the back and sides before THAT area will begin to look thin!
Cloning will mean that a very small sample of the donor area will give an unlimited supply of folliular units, and of whatever makeup (1, 2, 3, 4 hair units) desired, for transplantation to the affected areas in the hairline, frontal, and crown areas! Whoa!
The sobering caveat here is this (and this is what these guys out there telling me transplants are obsolete, etc, forget): once cloning is a reality, we will need to go through the process of figuring out how to get appropriate directionality of hair growth. This is of supreme importance in achieving an aesthetic transplant! Imagine hair growing in randome directions, or worse, growing backwards in the frontal region, or upwards in the crown, without the nromal "spiral" we see at the vertex. And we'll need to learn the best way of placing the grafts. This is all new territory for hair surgeons. Exciting, though, huh?
 
Re: hair loss and proscar

nizoralman said:
Hi,

Sexual Dysfunction was a major side effect when I was using proscar. I still use proscar on occasion, but only when useing a high dose of test.(to protect the prostrate)
I have found a combination azelaic acid, spironolactone, and nizoral shampoo to be better than proscar.

Nizoral Man
[email protected]
http://www.wholesalehairproducts.com/


Hi,
I've been to your website. I use finasteride, w/out problems, but I know some do have sides. I also use Nizoral. I'm interested in the others. My colleagues in the hair specialty tend to say the topical are worthless, w/ the possible exception of Nizoral (a lot of them recommend it); I'm not one to dismiss treatments out of hand due to lack of "acceptable" studies, I've learned how counterproductive that can be in my alternative medicine practice. Do you have some info for me on topical spiro and aa that I could read up on? I understand the theory, at least with spiro, but would like to educate myself, for my own benefit and that of my hair loss patients.
Thanks in advance
 
Hair loss

BuffDoc,


There are quite a few abstracts on PubMed regarding spironolactone and AA. Unfortunately, most are concerning the treatment of acne, not MPB. However, a good number of studies show the ability of these compounds to inhibit DHT when applied topically.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2972662&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2150020&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3155605&dopt=Abstract


Topical Spironolactone and the lack of systemic side effects:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3411088&dopt=Abstract

Hopefully, studies will be performed in the future to help evaluate the effectiveness. Meanwhile, we will have to rely on the empirical evidence from others whole are using these compounds.

Nizoral Man
 
2 other great anti-androgens:

Flutamide.
More potent than spironolactone.
At 1% concentration and right vehicle (Dermovan cream) there shouldn't be any problems with systemic side-effects.

Green tea extract.
Dual 5a-R inhibitor and an androgen receptor blocker. In addition it downregulates number of androgen receptors and is a insulin mimetic & antioxidant.
 
question? can you help me

Buff Doc,

I would like to start by letting you know that the information posted here by you and other participants is greatly appreciated as it has helped me to gain an understanding of male pattern baldness and treatments available - muchly appreciated.

However, I have a question for you.
I am from Australia; down here one of the main hair treatment businesses is called "Advanced Hair". They offer hair transplantation, as well as “laser treatment”.
Their theory behind the laser is that it is used to break up the DHT around the hair follicle, this along with the topical use of minoxidil, shampoo and tablets containing 1.6g of serenoa serrulata. The serenoa is an herbal extract; it apparently works by inhibiting the action of the 5-alpha-reductase.

My question is - have you heard anything about this type of treatment and just how valid it is? Personally my thoughts are that the minoxidil works, I am unsure about the serenoa extract, and personally I would have to question whether the laser is of any use at all.

Just to give you some idea of what this treatment is worth, I paid a student rate of AUD$2700 for a six month treatment. I am approximately four months through it, and haven’t noticed much change in my hair loss, in fact, as I sit here and write, I notice hairs falling onto the keyboard.

Any insight from any one into this treatment would be greatly appreciated!
 
Hit me,

I believe the serenoa is just saw palmetto extract available over the counter almost anywhere for probably cheaper than what they are charging. There is no evidence that it helps with MPB but some people do use it. I think oral as well as topical grean tea is a better choice herbally.

As far as I know, the laser "treatment" is pretty much all hype. I don't know if there are any studies on it either way, but I don't believe it's very effective at all.

I would suggest saving a lot of money and getting a rx for proscar, and or going the herbal route, and minoxidil is a must IMO. Might want to throw some nizoral 2% shampoo in there for some possible added benefit because it's pretty cheap. Start off using it a couple times a week, and I would stay away from hair loss "centers" unless you plan on getting a transplant which I wouldn't recommend at this time, with scientists possibly on the verge of better options in the next few years. THis is the advice I would give to anybody.
 
I thank you guys for the great info, but where is the proof that this "magical" treatment is less than 5 years away. I am a total skeptic and balding and am tired of all the hype and snake oil bullshit. Maybe there is a good treatment coming, but if everyone says 5 years, I bet it will be 10.
 
I pretty much agree with what TGFM has said. Serenoa is just SP's latin name. So far, anything to do with lasers and hair loss/hair transplantation has been a marketing tool; because it has the name "laser", ppl tend to believe it's the latest sexy, high-tech answer to our prayers. The idea of lasers breaking up DHT around the follicles is laughable.
As TGFM said, finasteride, Nizoral and minoxidil are your best bet at this point in time. I would add, though, that transplantation is not a bad thing if done properly. When cloning etc, become reality, then further density can be added. The question for men, especially young men, is to live with hair loss in the NOW, versus waiting. In other words, to be proactive or not. It really depends on the person and their degree of hair loss and how much it bugs them. Waiting for cloning doesn't change how one looks NOW.
 
PatBateman said:
I thank you guys for the great info, but where is the proof that this "magical" treatment is less than 5 years away. I am a total skeptic and balding and am tired of all the hype and snake oil bullshit. Maybe there is a good treatment coming, but if everyone says 5 years, I bet it will be 10.


Hmmm... I sense your frustration ;-)
Listen, cloning, etc is not "magical" any more than transplantation is. We have "good" treatments NOW, relative to 20 years ago. At one point in time, transplantation was unthinkable. Read the post below first of all.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=2204306#post2204306

You'll see that this is coming from the research community, especially the Asians. It only progresses as fast as it progresses. But there's nothing snake oil or bullshit about it. What IS snake oil and BS are some of the clinical people out there trying to coat-tail on the IDEA of cloning, hair "multiplication", etc, to appear "ahead of the curve". Don't confuse the two.
We saw the same thing in the mid 90's with laser transplantation: sounded great in theory, was a total bust in clinical application.
You may be right, it may be ten years if they say five, but the basic science guys tend to be pretty conservative in their estimations. Their professional reputations hinge on it.
BTW, what kind of "proof" did you want? If it ain't here yet, it ain't here yet! ;-) Be a skeptic, by all means, but not a cynic. They're not the same.
 
Yeah I thought the "Laser" treatment was a bit dodgy.
As I was saying the other treatment they offer is transplantation, however instead of taking hair from your own head and repositioning it, they take the hair from donors. Is this the way that all surgeons perform this? Or is the hair taken from your own head and then replaced?
This may sound like a silly question but I am unsure exactly how it works.
I thought it would be a good idea to ask after getting stung by them with the “laser Treatment”

cheers
 
[email][email protected][/email] said:
Yeah I thought the "Laser" treatment was a bit dodgy.
As I was saying the other treatment they offer is transplantation, however instead of taking hair from your own head and repositioning it, they take the hair from donors. Is this the way that all surgeons perform this? Or is the hair taken from your own head and then replaced?
This may sound like a silly question but I am unsure exactly how it works.
I thought it would be a good idea to ask after getting stung by them with the “laser Treatment”

cheers


Bro, I don't know what they're telling you, but at this point it's impossible to transplant others hair into your scalp. The body will reject it immediately. Only your own hair, from the permanent areas on the sides and at the back, will grow in the bald or balding areas.
This may be one of those scams where they use a polymer "second skin" and then place donor hair into the polymer. It's nothing more than a fancy hair weave, in reality.
 
hi puffdoc

This is my first post so i'm hoping to get as much help from you as possible in answering my questions regarding hair loss.

It's known that proscar/finasteride will reduce the conversion of DHT by preventing the 5-AR enzyme from converting test into DHT. However, this drug does not help a bodybuilder who uses AAS to a great extent. A body builder who stacks Test and lets say an androgen, such as EQ for example, will only combat DHT converstion caused by Test but not the EQ. Therefore, a topical treatment such as Minoxidil should be used with proscar to prevent DHT conversion in the scalp. Also, it is known that Proscar will reduce DHT levels to a degree that might/will hinder gains of a bodybuilder since DHT is needed in muscle tissue growth. If i was to recomend something for a body builder i would say used minoxidil and nizoral. I would recomnd this because both drugs don't change the chemical blanace of DHT in the body but only blocks DHT from binding to hair folicils in the scalp since they are both topical. Also, no hindering of gains in the use of these two topical treatment since they dont reduce the levels of DHT.

Questions

1) does my findings make sence to you? if it doesn't please correct me

2) Since proscar doesn't work on the frontal hair line then does that mean the use of proscar during an AAS cycle will not prevent frontal hair loss?

3) will the use of proscar prevent anymore loss/thining at the hairline?

4) If my findings are right then a topical treatment such as minoxidil is a must to stop hair loss caused by an androgen. My question is when can someone start minoxidil if he/she is planing to take a test/EQ cycle. Also, when can such person stop the use of minoxidil since there will be no need for it as much as during a cycle because the androgen will not be present in big quantities post cycle and the use of proscar will continue. Please keep in mind the halflife od EQ and test (enanthate).

I hope that my questions are clear and understandable.

Thank you in advance
 
Hi Maximus,
First of all it's Buffdoc, NOT Puffdoc (you really know how to ask for assistance! ;-) Sorry it took me so long to answer.
Actually, most of the questions are answered in one form or another in my posts earlier in the thread. But there are some misconceptions you have that I'll try to remedy.
First off, minoxidil does NOT work by inhibiting conversion to DHT (it is an extremely weak 5-AR inhibitor) It is a potassium channel opener. It's exact mechanism is unknown, but it may have to do with changes in blood flow, temperature, or a direct effect on the hair.
Also, you state with certainty that finasteride will decrease DHT levels in BB's to the point that gains will be affected. This has not been shown. In fact, we don't really even know if finasteride will keep DHT levels down within the normal range when BB's are using high doses of test. The data accumulated has been in men with "normal range" levels of test, NOT the supraphysiological levels achieved when juicing! Keep in mind also, that testosterone may be the biggy at the myocyte or muscle cell, and NOT DHT. So the gains thing doesn't hold up well.
However, finasteride WILL inhibit the formation of any 5-alpha reduced intermediate, whether from test, or any other androgen than undergoes 5-alpha reduction (eg, nandrolone to DHN). It's not exclusively testosterone. I'm not sure what the metabolic/enzymatic pathway of boldenone is.
You are wrong again in your statement about nizoral and minoxidil preventing the binding of DHT to the hair follicle. We are not sure what Nizoral does, but we know minoxidil has nothing to do w/ DHT binding to follicles. So the argument about using this combo instead of finasteride for the given reason is illogical. That being said, I'm all for Nizoral during cycling, use it myself.
Now, to answer your numbered questions above:
#1 No, they don't make sense (sorry;-)
#2 Sometimes proscar DOES work frontally, it's just been shown to work better and more predictably in the crown
#3 This question doesn't really follow given your previous question, but again, it MAY help frontally
#4 My friend, the reasoning here is just not present. First of all, as I have posted numerous times on numerous threads on this board, neither minox or finast can be used effectively in an intermittent fashion. Three things are required for androgenetic alopecia to occur:
1)genetic predisposition
2)presence of androgen (the most proven being DHT)
3)passage of time
If you are prone to balding, or are concerned about hair loss, get on finasteride (preferably with minoxidil), titrate your dose of finasteride down if you have sides, and STAY ON IT! Cycle or no cycle! If it does provide you with protection, and you stop it, your hair counts will go to where they would have been genetically if you'd never used the hair loss meds at all. Don't worry; other, better meds will be along soon. But once again, to anyone who reads this: intermittent use of minxidil and/or finasteride during cycles only is a waste of time and $$! Your own "normal" non-cycling levels of androgen are more than enough to facilitate male pattern baldness if you are so disposed. If you're not, 2 grams a week aren't going to affect you!
And once again, I believe a lot of the sudden hair loss people seem to experience using Fina, Wimmy, Primo, Proviron, or whatever else, is not AGA, but stress or chemical induced telogen effluvium.
 
First of all it's Buffdoc, NOT Puffdoc (you really know how to ask for assistance! ;-)

LOL sorry BUFFDOC

thank you very very much for your time. just few more questions.

1) do you belive that using finasteride will prevent further hairloss during a cycle of lets say 400mg EQ/ 500mg test per weeksince you said it prevents the conversion of test and other androgens to DHT.

2) i'm i able to use proscar instead (cheaper ) by dividing the pill into 4 sections to get good results?

3)
finasteride WILL inhibit the formation of any 5-alpha reduced intermediate, whether from test, or any other androgen than undergoes 5-alpha reduction (eg, nandrolone to DHN). It's not exclusively testosterone

this still means that finasteride will not work as well if you have an androgen that does not undergo 5-alpha reduction Such as EQ.

4)
we don't really even know if finasteride will keep DHT levels down within the normal range when BB's are using high doses of test

why do you say that? did you not say that finasteride WILL inhibit the formation of any 5-alpha reduced intermediate and DHT is one of those intermediates, so why can't you keep it down to at least normal levels?

Again, thank you very much in advance

MA
 
Buffdoc,

Just out of curiosity, do you write your own scripts for your bodybuilding endeavors? Is there any group that "polices" if you will... doctors who are suspected of foul prescription practices, or even pharmocologists? Being a doctor are you more or less free to write rx's for anything using your own judgement or can a doctor be investigated or repremanded for "foul" practice in this area? If one were to write continuing scripts for oneslelf for let's say morphine, cocaine, even pain killers, would this be noticed and by whom, and how frequently does this kind of thing take place in the medical community. I'm asking all this out of pure curiosity. I've always wondered to what extent this kind of thing goes on. thanks
 
thankgodformexico said:
Buffdoc,

Just out of curiosity, do you write your own scripts for your bodybuilding endeavors? Is there any group that "polices" if you will... doctors who are suspected of foul prescription practices, or even pharmocologists? Being a doctor are you more or less free to write rx's for anything using your own judgement or can a doctor be investigated or repremanded for "foul" practice in this area? If one were to write continuing scripts for oneslelf for let's say morphine, cocaine, even pain killers, would this be noticed and by whom, and how frequently does this kind of thing take place in the medical community. I'm asking all this out of pure curiosity. I've always wondered to what extent this kind of thing goes on. thanks

It is against the law to write controlled scripts (CII, III, IV, or V) for oneself OR for members of one's family. You can lose your medical license and/or have criminal charges brought: and believe me, it happens. This is one of the biggest problems w/ addicted physicians, they are sick, but because of prescription practices, they wind up being prosecuted or being sanctioned by the board. Therefore, many remain underground and don't get help until they are dead or close to it.
 
1) do you belive that using finasteride will prevent further hairloss during a cycle of lets say 400mg EQ/ 500mg test per weeksince you said it prevents the conversion of test and other androgens to DHT.

Yes, probably. But again, levels may be too high to be affected!

2) i'm i able to use proscar instead (cheaper ) by dividing the pill into 4 sections to get good results?

Absolutely. I use a pill cutter from the drugstore for these kinds of "conversions".

3)

this still means that finasteride will not work as well if you have an androgen that does not undergo 5-alpha reduction Such as EQ.

Probably won't do anything. But remember, EQ is much less androgenic than test, so it's probably a moot point.

4)

why do you say that? did you not say that finasteride WILL inhibit the formation of any 5-alpha reduced intermediate and DHT is one of those intermediates, so why can't you keep it down to at least normal levels?

You have to understand the kinetics of enzymatic conversions. These conversions take place at rates that are too fast to be conceptualized by the human mind. So, even if you've inhibited 70% of the 5 AR available, and you run the substrate (test or other androgen) levels up way high, the available 5-AR will be converting away, therefore higher DHT levels. I don't think anyone's studied this, but the studies with finasteride were all done on men with the usual non-cycle test levels. Cycling may run the test levels up to a point that outstrips the inhibition of 5AR.



Again, thank you very much in advance

MA [/B][/QUOTE]
 
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