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Abstract for those who believe d-bol is only good for adding "water-weight",hehheh...

HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex

Elite Mentor
Platinum
Dianabol often gets a bad rap for being nothing more than a "bloating" drug.While it is true that the initial onset of weight gains are usually induced by estradiol influenced edema,once the drug has been administered for consecutive weeks,many subsequent anabolic reactions take place(more than are listed in this study)and true HYPERTROPHY is realized.And contrary to popular opinion,it does not all fade away after discontinuation.They don't call it the breakfast of champions for nothing;)Enjoy my brothas....

Clin Sci (Colch) 1981 Apr;60(4):457-61


Effects of methandienone on the performance and body composition of men undergoing athletic training.

Hervey GR, Knibbs AV, Burkinshaw L, Morgan DB, Jones PR, Chettle DR, Vartsky D.

1. In a previous study of the effects of methandienone (Dianabol) on men undergoing athletic training, strength and performance increased, but not significantly more when the subjects were taking the drug than when they were taking placebo. The subjects did, however, gain more weight on the drug, with increases in total body potassium and muscle dimensions. It remained an open question whether the muscles had gained normal tissue or intracellular fluid. 2. In an attempt to distinguish between these possibilities the trial has been repeated, using as subjects seven male weight-lifters in regular training, and including measurements of total body nitrogen. As before, a dose of 100 mg of methandienone/day was given alternately with the placebo in a double-blind crossover experiment. The treatment periods lasted 6 weeks and were separated by an interval of 6 weeks. Body weight, potassium and nitrogen, muscle size, and leg performance and strength increased significantly during training on the drug, but not during the placebo period. 3. The finding of increased body nitrogen suggested that the weight gain was not only intracellular fluid. The increases in body potassium (436 +/- SEM 41 mmol) and nitrogen (255 +/- 69 g) were too large in proportion to the weight gain (2.3 +/- 0.4 kg) for this to be attributed to gain of normal muscle or other lean tissue, and imply gain of nitrogen-rich, phosphate-poor substance. Although this action of methandienone might be described as anabolic, the weight gain produced is not normal muscle.
 
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It does seem that the gains made on D-bol disappear rather rapidly, do you have any advice on how to maintain those gains.


The cycle I will be starting in about 4 weeks is

EQ, test, and D-bol (d-bol) for the first 5 weeks to get immediate size and strength, going.

I would start today, but I have a shoulder/biceps strain/tear and waiting for that to heal.
 
Control it's conversion to estradiol with subsequent use of an anti-aromitase agent.Overall weight gain will not be as dramatic,but neither will post cycle excretion of water,and the anabolic properties influenced will give fairly long lasting benefits...
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
The increases in body potassium (436 +/- SEM 41 mmol) and nitrogen (255 +/- 69 g) were too large in proportion to the weight gain (2.3 +/- 0.4 kg) for this to be attributed to gain of normal muscle or other lean tissue, and imply gain of nitrogen-rich, phosphate-poor substance. Although this action of methandienone might be described as anabolic, the weight gain produced is not normal muscle.




Ok, I'm not seeing it like ya'll are... This study says that even at 100mg of dbol per day, there is still no signifigant increase in actual muscle. There is a weight gain that is not just from water, but it is not normal muscle... It is however tissue growth so it is described as being anabolic... since the weight gain doesn't have the properties of normal muscle and there was no signifigant strength gain, it is hard to say that you gained additional contractile proteins....

Am I the only one thats reading it like that?

Besides, this is not a credible experiment and was not published in a credible journal (or at least I've never heard of it)... anytime you use such a small subject pool, the signifigance is very low and the correlations can not be justified... There is also too many open ends. In other words, you can't be sure that all 7 weren't outliers.



-Stew
 
I am with you Stew, It was weird the way I read it.


Explain something to me.

Dbol = water weight / bloat Liquidex = no water weight / bloat doesn't that sort of cancel one another out?
 
I noticed that too, Stew, but I assumed it had to be muscle tissue of some kind because of the increase in nitrogen. If it was an increase in fat or bone, the nitrogen levels would have been low and phosphates would have been high.

Body weight, potassium and nitrogen, muscle size, and leg performance and strength increased significantly during training on the drug, but not during the placebo period.
 
Its about enough to call them up and ask "What exactly is 'normal' muscle tissue?"

I wonder if there's been another follow up study that explained exactly what was happening... That was just an abstract. The study itself may have gone into greater detail.


-Stew
 
The abnormal tissue growth they were talking about was probably the increase in bra size due to the 100mg per day. Jeez, those guys weren't fucking around! When they want to test gear, they test some gear!
 
Of course, dbol is a good steroid and adds muscles, alone with water and fat. It's a strong androgen and good anabolic, so obviously it does build muscle tissue, how can someone argue with that?
Because of picking fast in blood it does increase conversion to estogen, so there are we get water and fat, also, it converts to 17-AA estrogen, wich stays longer in a system, that's why so much bloat.
It does improve protein synthesis, release of growth hormone and IGF-1, has antiglucocortcoid activity, stimulate CNS, and all this besides direct binding to AR.
Because of higher water retention, after one stops using it, he experience higher loses of that water(and fat). That's how myth about not keepable gains is created.
Also, don't forget that it's used in relatively short period of time(4-6 weeks,in most cases). What amount of LBM do you expect to gain in such a short time??
I have great experience with dbol and use it in every single cycle :)
 
And since I am on such a bumpi' role, my last bump of the evening goes to this thread by good ol' Huck again. No sense for this shit to disappear so fast after he took the time to type it out, plus it is interesting. Drum role please....1.....2....bump!

MR. BMJ

p.s., I swear this is the last bump!
 
ANABOLICchild said:
LIQUIDEX ??????????????? someone xplain , i searched the searhcengine and nothin

liquidex = arimidex in liquid not tablet




-Stew
 
why is it better? is it cheaper?

and I have to say that I agree with Stew on the interpretation of it - if anything, that study would look to me to be negative towards the use of dbol and the ensuing "gains"
 
HappyScrappy said:
why is it better? is it cheaper?

and I have to say that I agree with Stew on the interpretation of it - if anything, that study would look to me to be negative towards the use of dbol and the ensuing "gains"

It is a little cheaper... $280 for 80mg where Aimidex in tabs is about $320 for 80mg. But who knows if the liquidex is underdoses... it is made by an underground lab and to my knowlege has not been tested.



-Stew
 
nice to see those old posts again OMEGA, good reading.

Just wondering why stew is not on the board anymore??, I really love reading his posts......does anybody know which boards he is on now?
 
Dbol is the forgotten steroid - the Cinderella steroid. It never gets to go to the ball.. Many people pass on the dbol because they want the fancy smancy expensive stuff. Some people are just scared stupid by dbols supposed health dangers. There is no better cheaper steroid. Even if dbol was as expensive as winny or anavar - dbol is still the better drug.

I like dbol.:p
 
Gary,
I would vote on deca as being the forgotten steroid. Its safe, available, affordable but people seem to be ignoring it. I don't understand why people don't advocate the old deca/dbol cycle for newbies anymore.
 
You have to find what works for you better, and consider price and availability.
For the price, nothing can beat dbol (among orals).
 
Bill W said:
Gary,
I would vote on deca as being the forgotten steroid. Its safe, available, affordable but people seem to be ignoring it. I don't understand why people don't advocate the old deca/dbol cycle for newbies anymore.

Easy answer - everybody is terrified of deca dick - me included... This brings me onto a question regarding deca. If you did an 8 week cycle, and used dbol or test in addition to deca, would you experience negative post-cycle sexual sides greater than normal?

The sexual side problem should be addressed. That is the only reason that deca is overlooked (unless you are a drug tested of course, in which case you ignore it cos it is detectable for ages).
 
Intersting post. I used to swear I would never do Dbol until last year I bought 100 to through in with my Aratest. I will never not use it. The stuff is great. Even if you don't add "real" muscle or whatever that is, you do put on size immediately and strength goes through the roof which is great for when the test kicks in. I also think dbol alone works well because my first time using it I think the Aratest was junk. After the dbol was stopped I didn't gain anymore weight, I did still manage to keep it on.

:destroy: :chainsaw:
 
Besides, this is not a credible experiment and was not published in a credible journal
\

Hey Stew... no flame or anything, just wanted to let you know that Clinical Science is a pretty reputable journal. One thing that some of you may not have noticed tho about that abstract was that it was done in the early 80's. It might be beneficial for the scientific world to update the study using more modern techniques and safety precautions IMO.
 
GaryWary said:
Dbol is the forgotten steroid - the Cinderella steroid. It never gets to go to the ball.. Many people pass on the dbol because they want the fancy smancy expensive stuff. Some people are just scared stupid by dbols supposed health dangers. There is no better cheaper steroid. Even if dbol was as expensive as winny or anavar - dbol is still the better drug.

I like dbol.:p

Gary, well dbol does have some sides, it's hard on the hairline for example. And I'm a pretty boy who worries about that stuff.

PS I've been gobbling dbol like candy for much of this cycle.

PPS 100 mg??? Geez and I feel guilty if I take 50.
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Dianabol often gets a bad rap for being nothing more than a "bloating" drug.While it is true that the initial onset of weight gains are usually induced by estradiol influenced edema,once the drug has been administered for consecutive weeks,many subsequent anabolic reactions take place(more than are listed in this study)and true HYPERTROPHY is realized.And contrary to popular opinion,it does not all fade away after discontinuation.They don't call it the breakfast of champions for nothing;)Enjoy my brothas....

Clin Sci (Colch) 1981 Apr;60(4):457-61


Effects of methandienone on the performance and body composition of men undergoing athletic training.

Hervey GR, Knibbs AV, Burkinshaw L, Morgan DB, Jones PR, Chettle DR, Vartsky D.


1. In a previous study of the effects of methandienone (Dianabol) on men undergoing athletic training, strength and performance increased, but not significantly more when the subjects were taking the drug than when they were taking placebo. The subjects did, however, gain more weight on the drug, with increases in total body potassium and muscle dimensions. It remained an open question whether the muscles had gained normal tissue or intracellular fluid. 2. In an attempt to distinguish between these possibilities the trial has been repeated, using as subjects seven male weight-lifters in regular training, and including measurements of total body nitrogen. As before, a dose of 100 mg of met


A few things that should be added:

This info was read from the old clinical trials performed
by Ciba(The original maker of Methandrostenelone) in
the 1960's. They are NOT online. You have to go to a library
and look for them.

1. Dball increases your average testosterone level by 5 times.

So, if its 500, then it'll go up to 2500

So, in terms of anabolicity it is similiar to about 200mg test.

However, here is where Dianabol REALLY WORKS:

It is capable of reducing endogeneous CORTISONE
by 50-70%, making it the mother of ALL anti-catabolics
(except fina but thats different).

This is why Dianabol works on EVERYBODY. It really
doesn't raise test levels that much, but it has an AMAZING
impact on muscle catabolism.

The reason why Deca/dball stacks SO WELL is that
while the Dball is VERY anti-catabolic, the Deca
is HIGHLY anabolic. In essence they complement each other
perfectly.
If you don't grow off Deca/dball you won't grow of ANYHTHING.
No matter how fancy you get.

Also, the longer its used the higher the GH and IGF-1 levels
it is able to produce from its pass through the liver.

Fonz
 
This is the drug regiem my HIV doc put me on (+Androgel). See my routine and questions on the AIDS section of this board. Thanks!
 
HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex said:
Dianabol often gets a bad rap for being nothing more than a "bloating" drug.While it is true that the initial onset of weight gains are usually induced by estradiol influenced edema,once the drug has been administered for consecutive weeks,many subsequent anabolic reactions take place(more than are listed in this study)and true HYPERTROPHY is realized.And contrary to popular opinion,it does not all fade away after discontinuation.They don't call it the breakfast of champions for nothing;)Enjoy my brothas....

Clin Sci (Colch) 1981 Apr;60(4):457-61


Effects of methandienone on the performance and body composition of men undergoing athletic training.

Hervey GR, Knibbs AV, Burkinshaw L, Morgan DB, Jones PR, Chettle DR, Vartsky D.

1. In a previous study of the effects of methandienone (Dianabol) on men undergoing athletic training, strength and performance increased, but not significantly more when the subjects were taking the drug than when they were taking placebo. The subjects did, however, gain more weight on the drug, with increases in total body potassium and muscle dimensions. It remained an open question whether the muscles had gained normal tissue or intracellular fluid. 2. In an attempt to distinguish between these possibilities the trial has been repeated, using as subjects seven male weight-lifters in regular training, and including measurements of total body nitrogen. As before, a dose of 100 mg of methandienone/day was given alternately with the placebo in a double-blind crossover experiment. The treatment periods lasted 6 weeks and were separated by an interval of 6 weeks. Body weight, potassium and nitrogen, muscle size, and leg performance and strength increased significantly during training on the drug, but not during the placebo period. 3. The finding of increased body nitrogen suggested that the weight gain was not only intracellular fluid. The increases in body potassium (436 +/- SEM 41 mmol) and nitrogen (255 +/- 69 g) were too large in proportion to the weight gain (2.3 +/- 0.4 kg) for this to be attributed to gain of normal muscle or other lean tissue, and imply gain of nitrogen-rich, phosphate-poor substance. Although this action of methandienone might be described as anabolic, the weight gain produced is not normal muscle.

The first thing that strikes me is that they never mentioned bodyfat at all. So, if the lean mass gain was out of line with the scale weight increase, that just tells me that they didn't check for a drop in bodyfat as an offset. It sounds to me like they ASSumed that there would be no body comp changes so they never checked for one.
 
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