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*The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruising*

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Ross

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The Perpetual Muscle Mass Explosion​



Are you SICK AND TIRED of LOSING your precious MUSCLE MASS and STRENGTH?

Are you SICK AND TIRED of taking THREE steps FORWARD then taking FOUR steps BACKWARD?

Are you SICK AND TIRED of experiencing a POST CYCLE CRASH?

If you anwered "YES", then I urge you to continue reading...




Chapter 1
Pre-PCT: Active Recovery​



DO NOT GO DIRECTLY INTO PCT!

The concept of "PCT" was formulated WITHOUT the knowledge that partial HPTA recovery CAN occur while on CERTAIN steroids!

At the end of your cycle's duration, you are COMPLETELY SHUTDOWN. Your hormonal environment is NOT conducive for muscle growth or maintenance. Going directly into PCT from this state is BEGGING for a huge loss of GAINS!

PCT seeks to RESTORE HORMONAL BALANCE as quickly and as effectively as possible, BUT THIS IMPOSSIBLE! PCT IS NOT MAGIC! Full and complete HPTA recovery is a longer process than most people understand. SERM's and AI's are only marginally effective. How many COUNTLESS individuals have LOST a large percentage of their gains during and after PCT? WAY TOO MANY!

Rather than going DIRECTLY into PCT, we utilize a "Pre-PCT" or a period of "Active Recovery".

Pre-PCT: PRE-PCT allows the HPTA to begin LH/FSH output, while still receiving additional anabolic support. This is the peroid of time where we utilize a NON-inhibitory steroid while the endogenous testosterone level begins to recover. This occurs PRIOR TO FULL PCT, so that by the time we begin full PCT the HPTA has already began recovering.

Active RECOVERY: The HPTA BEGINS to restore endogenous testosterone production once it detects the body's androgen level beginning to decline(end of cycle).

Therefore, HPTA CAN BEGIN TO RECOVER WHILE STILL IN AN ANABOLIC STATE!


The following drugs can be used during Active Recovery:

Anavar/Proviron= 40mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 40mgs/300mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 300mgs/300mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 40mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 40mgs/300mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 50mgs/300mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/300mgs


Examples...


In a SHORT CYCLE:

Weeks 1-4: Testosterone Propionate, 100mgs ED
Weeks 1-4: Dianabol, 50mgs ED
Weeks 1-4: NPP, 400mgs
Weeks 4-8: **PRE-PCT(ACTIVE RECOVERY)**
Weeks 8-?: **POST CYCLE THERAPY**


A Standard Cycle:

Weeks 1-6: Dianabol, 30mgs ED
Weeks 1-10: Testosterone Enanthate, 500mgs
Weeks 8-12: Winstrol, 100mgs ED
Weeks 12-16: **PRE-PCT(ACTIVE RECOVERY) **
Weeks 16-26: **POST CYCLE THERAPY**





Chapter 2
The Bridge​



Post-cycle regimens containing Aromatase Inhibitors and SERM's are simply not enough for the SERIOUS bodybuilder to maintain his muscular gains post-cycle. Once a bodybuilders reaches a certain point of muscular development, the continued use of a mild anabolic becomes justified..

The steroid user has TWO options:

1.) A Bridge
2.) A Cruise

In this chapter, we discuss the purpose of the BRIDGE.

The Bridge allows you to remain in an anabolic state while simultaneously having a MINIMAL intereference with HPTA function. Once you are FULLY RECOVERED and your PCT is complete, you can begin bridging while awaiting your FULL CYCLE. This will allow you to make GREATER THAN NATURAL GAINS, while still maintaining normal testosterone levels.

Bridging can ONLY be accomplished using a very specific and limited number of compounds. The selected compound must first be MINIMALLY supressive to the HPTA, and secondly, must still be healthy and effective in small dosages.

The following steroid combinations can be used effectively for Bridging.

Anavar/Proviron= 40mgs/25mgs
Anavar/Masteron= 40mgs/300mgs
Primobolan/Masteron= 300mgs/300mgs
Turinabol/Proviron= 40mgs/25mgs
Turinabol/Masteron= 40mgs/300mgs
Winstrol/Masteron= 50mgs/300mgs
Dianabol/Proviron= 15mgs/25mgs
Dianabol/Masteron= 15mgs/300mgs





Chapter 3
The Cruise​



The "Cruise" is simply bridging done with TESTOSTERONE.

Briding with Testosterone(cruising) is VERY effective for the maintenance and generation of muscle mass and strength, and is actually safer for the body overall than bridging with perhaps any other compound. HOWEVER, the primary difference with cruising, is that THE HPTA NEVER RECOVERS!

I repeat: Crusing will NOT ALLOW THE HPTA TO RECOVER AT ALL.

Crusing is a great option for those who are OLDER or for those who have damaged HPTA's. If you do not plan on having children, and are producing little endogenous testosterone anyway, CRUSING is the right option for you.

Typically, the testosterone dosage used to cruise is between 150-300 mgs per week. When users decide to go "ON cycle" they simply increase their testosterone dosage to 500-750mgs, while adding another compound or two for an increased synergism. It should be noted that studies have demonstrated that at dosages between 150-250mgs, endogenous testosterone production was sustained to a small degree when an AI such as arimidex was used.

For every GOAL, there is a PATH.

[R]
 
al420 said:
My goal is to Snatch 220 kilos - what would help me with that?
Click to expand...

Sure, I can set you up with a GREAT powerlifting coach.

I happen to be a bodybuilder :mix:
 
Stryker1992 said:
Hey bro, where did you get this info??????????


Seems interesting!
Click to expand...

Thank you, I am the author.

I'd be happy to clarify any questions you may have.
 
God Damit Ross.

Anavar, Winstrol - stanozolol, Dianabol and any other 17 alpha-alkylated oral will shut your ass down. There is nothing to “recover” while using these drugs. The only studies you will find are the ones that show decreased lh - leutenizing hormone - & FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - output, and decreased testosterone. – AKA Shrunken balls.

I like a brain with fresh ideas, but I cant support this theory.

-Pp
 
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hahaha i've never seen PP loose his cool LOL!

i do miss these types of threads tho. debate and discuss it, defend or debunk it, but hell they make you think
 
Primordial Performance said:
God Damit Ross.

Anavar, Winny, Dianabol and any other 17aa oral will shut your ass down. There is nothing to “recover” while using these drugs. The only studies you will find are the onse that show decreased LH & FSH output, and decreased testosterone. – AKA Shrunken balls.

I like a brain with fresh ideas, but I cant support this theory.

-Pp
Click to expand...

Dianabol WILL NOT shutdown the HPTA. AGAIN, I will quote our good friend anthony:

"In this study, done in the early 80´s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it´s normal value, plasma GH went up about a third, LH dropped to about 80% of it´s original value, and FSH went down about a third also"

Proviron and Turinabol, also 17-AA steroids, will NOT shutdown the HPTA. Neither will Anavar or Winstrol in lower dosages.

This isn't the 80's anymore bro. The internet has given us all access to information that was previously unavailable.

"PCT" is an invention of the internet. Much of the STEROID DOGMA is the result of the internet. Therefore, with this new information via the internet, you can expect new methods of cycling to surface.

I have always respected your work, but to be so abrasive is just unfounded. I thought we were on the same page actually...?

Anyway, I welcome all discourse. :)
 
jmead said:
who are u? :)
Click to expand...

I am Ross.

I have been an active member of the online bodybuilding and steroid community for over 10 years.

Nice to meet ya bro.
 
Sorry to be abrasive, but I had to call this out.

You need to post abstracts if your going to say this kind of stuff. The only thing is, the research that is available doesn’t support what your saying.

Show me the 100mg/day dbol study.

-Pp


- Ross - said:
Dianabol WILL NOT shutdown the HPTA. AGAIN, I will quote our good friend anthony:

"In this study, done in the early 80´s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it´s normal value, plasma GH went up about a third, LH dropped to about 80% of it´s original value, and FSH went down about a third also"

Proviron and Turinabol, also 17-AA steroids, will NOT shutdown the HPTA. Neither will Anavar or Winstrol in lower dosages.

This isn't the 80's anymore bro. The internet has given us all access to information that was previously unavailable.

"PCT" is an invention of the internet. Much of the STEROID DOGMA is the result of the internet. Therefore, with this new information via the internet, you can expect new methods of cycling to surface.

I have always respected your work, but to be so abrasive is just unfounded. I thought we were on the same page actually...?

Anyway, I welcome all discourse. :)
Click to expand...
 
nice to meet you also..

id like to see the studies too so that i can read them and not understand and then someone smarter than me can explain it in retard terms
 
jmead said:
nice to meet you also..

id like to see the studies too so that i can read them and not understand and then someone smarter than me can explain it in retard terms
Click to expand...
lol.
We all feel that way sometime or another.
 
Wulfgar said:
Do we have another author/expert joining the family here @ elite?
Click to expand...

LOL, there are quite a few here already, aren't there?

I heard that Elite was looking for a "JACKED Guru". I came to fill the spot..:)
 
Ross,

You are partly correct about the proviron and primo being only very mildly suppressive. But this is not the case with 17aa orals.

Letting up on the brakes of suppression by 10-20% is not going to allow anybody to recover. You cant expect to take a “less suppressive” AAS in hopes of allowing your testes to kick up production. Hell, your HPTA can barely recover when AAS are dropped all together, and even super-physiological doses of HCG therapy takes time to reach full recovery.

Let me dip into the cookie jar…

Here is Dbol as contraceptive at only 15mg/day (I like to call this shutdown) -

Effects of an anabolic steroid (metandienone) on spermatogenesis.
PK Holma
Contraception, Feb 1977; 15(2): 151-62.

A 15mg/day dose caused a 50% reduction in LH & FSH and a 69% decrease in testosterone levels. -

Effect of an anabolic steroid (metandienon) on plasma LH-FSH, and testosterone and on the response to intravenous administration of LRH.
P Holma and H Adlercreutz
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Dec 1976; 83(4): 856-64.
Only 2.5mg/day of anavar suppressing Lh 40% and testosterone production 50% -

Malhotra A, Poon E, Tse WY, Pringle PJ, Hindmarsh PC, Brook CG 1993 The effects of oxandrolone on the growth hormone and gonadal axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty. Clin Endocrinol 38:393–398

Anavar in ratz brought LH to undetectable levels and FSH below 88% of base line. -

The effects of an anabolic steroid (oxandrolone) on reproductive development in the male rat.
BH Grokett, N Ahmad, and DW Warren
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Feb 1992; 126(2): 173-8.

In only 14 days of 10mg/day stanozolol lowered testosterone 55% -

Alteration of hormone levels in normal males given the anabolic steroid stanozolol.
M Small, GH Beastall, CG Semple, RA Cowan, and CD Forbes
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf), Jul 1984; 21(1): 49-55.
 
gyno issues? what kinda cycles you run?

whats your current stats?

i wanna see the much bigger and leaner version

i got some 1's if your interested you big sexy beast
 
your quoting AR? he is not well liked by a lot of bros here. Do you have any abstracts to show your position?
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ross,

You are partly correct about the proviron and primo being only very mildly suppressive. But this is not the case with 17aa orals.

Letting up on the brakes of suppression by 10-20% is not going to allow anybody to recover. You cant expect to take a “less suppressive” AAS in hopes of allowing your testes to kick up production. Hell, your HPTA can barely recover when AAS are dropped all together, and even super-physiological doses of HCG therapy takes time to reach full recovery.

Let me dip into the cookie jar…

Here is Dbol as contraceptive at only 15mg/day (I like to call this shutdown) -

Effects of an anabolic steroid (metandienone) on spermatogenesis.
PK Holma
Contraception, Feb 1977; 15(2): 151-62.

A 15mg/day dose caused a 50% reduction in LH & FSH and a 69% decrease in testosterone levels. -

Effect of an anabolic steroid (metandienon) on plasma LH-FSH, and testosterone and on the response to intravenous administration of LRH.
P Holma and H Adlercreutz
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Dec 1976; 83(4): 856-64.
Only 2.5mg/day of anavar suppressing Lh 40% and testosterone production 50% -

Malhotra A, Poon E, Tse WY, Pringle PJ, Hindmarsh PC, Brook CG 1993 The effects of oxandrolone on the growth hormone and gonadal axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty. Clin Endocrinol 38:393–398

Anavar in ratz brought LH to undetectable levels and FSH below 88% of base line. -

The effects of an anabolic steroid (oxandrolone) on reproductive development in the male rat.
BH Grokett, N Ahmad, and DW Warren
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Feb 1992; 126(2): 173-8.

In only 14 days of 10mg/day stanozolol lowered testosterone 55% -

Alteration of hormone levels in normal males given the anabolic steroid stanozolol.
M Small, GH Beastall, CG Semple, RA Cowan, and CD Forbes
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf), Jul 1984; 21(1): 49-55.
Click to expand...


You are confusing "HPTA SHUTDOWN" with "HPTA inhibition". There is a HUGE difference.

Dianabol, Winstrol, and Anavar will all INHIBIT the HPTA, to varying degrees(as your posted studies DEMONSTRATE). THEY WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN, however.

Testosterone, Trenbolone, and DECA will cause a COMPLETE SHUTDOWN OF THE HPTA!

Deca02.gif


"We can see from the chart below that a simgle measly 100mg injection of Deca caused a total (100%) reduction of natural testosterone levels, and it took roughly a month to return those testosterone levels to baseline! All from 100mgs of Deca!"

These following drugs caused HPTA INHIBITION! NOT SHUTDOWN.

Effects of an anabolic steroid (metandienone) on spermatogenesis.
PK Holma
Contraception, Feb 1977; 15(2): 151-62.

A 15mg/day dose caused a 50% reduction in LH & FSH and a 69% decrease in testosterone levels. -

Effect of an anabolic steroid (metandienon) on plasma LH-FSH, and testosterone and on the response to intravenous administration of LRH.
P Holma and H Adlercreutz
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Dec 1976; 83(4): 856-64.
Only 2.5mg/day of anavar suppressing Lh 40% and testosterone production 50% -

Malhotra A, Poon E, Tse WY, Pringle PJ, Hindmarsh PC, Brook CG 1993 The effects of oxandrolone on the growth hormone and gonadal axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty. Clin Endocrinol 38:393–398

Anavar in ratz brought LH to undetectable levels and FSH below 88% of base line. -

The effects of an anabolic steroid (oxandrolone) on reproductive development in the male rat.
BH Grokett, N Ahmad, and DW Warren
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Feb 1992; 126(2): 173-8.

In only 14 days of 10mg/day stanozolol lowered testosterone 55% -

Alteration of hormone levels in normal males given the anabolic steroid stanozolol.
M Small, GH Beastall, CG Semple, RA Cowan, and CD Forbes
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf), Jul 1984; 21(1): 49-55.[/QUOTE
 
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LOL, there are quite a few here already, aren't there?

I heard that Elite was looking for a "JACKED Guru". I came to fill the spot
Click to expand...

Ross we have a number of so called experts, if you are who you say you are and not a pseudo for one of the mental midgets,


You are the best thing forthis forum next to the 2nd coming,


Too many experts here that don’t lift don’t take gear and have no idea what they are talking about, in addition to screwing up every decent thread posted with their mindless tribal.
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ross,

You are partly correct about the proviron and primo being only very mildly suppressive. But this is not the case with 17aa orals.

Letting up on the brakes of suppression by 10-20% is not going to allow anybody to recover. You cant expect to take a “less suppressive” AAS in hopes of allowing your testes to kick up production. Hell, your HPTA can barely recover when AAS are dropped all together, and even super-physiological doses of HCG therapy takes time to reach full recovery.

.[/I]
Click to expand...

The ONLY WAY that the HPTA can remain in a state of shutdown, is if the various hormone receptors in the Hypothalamus remain ACTIVATED.

When you are OFF cycle and simply running 200mgs Primo/50mgs Proviron, you are NOT providing sufficient substrate to cause overactivation of the hormone receptors in the hypothalamus and subsequently cause SHUTDOWN.

LH/FSH output will resume when the Hypothalamus detects a DECREASE in the number of androgen receptors activated, which INEVITABLE happens.
 
solidspine said:
Ross we have a number of so called experts, if you are who you say you are and not a pseudo for one of the mental midgets,


You are the best thing forthis forum next to the 2nd coming,


Too many experts here that don’t lift don’t take gear and have no idea what they are talking about, in addition to screwing up every decent thread posted with their mindless tribal.
Click to expand...

LOL

Very well articulated!

Thanks for the kind words my friend. I'll do my best!
 
- Ross - said:
LOL

Very well articulated!

Thanks for the kind words my friend. I'll do my best!
Click to expand...

Bro, you look and sound like a pussy!

hahaha, kidding, i just wanted in on the action. You are way bigger and stronger than me so don't kick my ass!
 
- Ross - said:
The ONLY WAY that the HPTA can remain in a state of shutdown, is if the various hormone receptors in the Hypothalamus remain ACTIVATED.

When you are OFF cycle and simply running 200mgs Primo/50mgs Proviron, you are NOT providing sufficient substrate to cause overactivation of the hormone receptors in the hypothalamus and subsequently cause SHUTDOWN.

LH/FSH output will resume when the Hypothalamus detects a DECREASE in the number of androgen receptors activated, which INEVITABLE happens.
Click to expand...

Ross,

That graph you showed is just another example of exogenous AAS suppressing testosterone 80-90%. If you actually look at the graph – while keeping in mind your such diligent discrepancy between INHIBITION and SHUTDOWN, the Deca only caused INHIBITITION, and did not completely shut down testosterone production.

So, testosterone and Deca are no more inhibitory than the 17aa orals you mentioned.

Plus, the doses you recommended were way higher than the studies I mentioned showing 50-80% decreases in testosterone. Your 80mg+ Bridge recommendation will not allow recovery. That is a fact.

Look at the studies comparing a 5mg dose of a 17aa oral, compared to a 50mg dose of test. You get the same inhibition. You have a nice theory, but you are simply mistaken about the “minimal interference with HPTA function” associated with these 17aa orals.

-Pp
 
man this guy has been banned off a few different boards that i have seen.
they cant stand him over at AR.
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ross,

That graph you showed is just another example of exogenous AAS suppressing testosterone 80-90%. If you actually look at the graph – while keeping in mind your such diligent discrepancy between INHIBITION and SHUTDOWN, the Deca only caused INHIBITITION, and did not completely shut down testosterone production.

So, testosterone and Deca are no more inhibitory than the 17aa orals you mentioned.

Plus, the doses you recommended were way higher than the studies I mentioned showing 50-80% decreases in testosterone. Your 80mg+ Bridge recommendation will not allow recovery. That is a fact.

Look at the studies comparing a 5mg dose of a 17aa oral, compared to a 50mg dose of test. You get the same inhibition. You have a nice theory, but you are simply mistaken about the “minimal interference with HPTA function” associated with these 17aa orals.

-Pp
Click to expand...

Did you REALLY just say that "testosterone and Deca are no more inhibitory than the 17aa orals" I had mentioned?

Deca is not more supressive than ANAVAR?!

Deca is not more supressive than TURINABOL!?

What about Proviron???? LOL

Bro, take a dude who has never cycled. Put him on 200mgs of primobolan for 8 weeks, get him tested DURING and AFTER.

During and after the Primobolan cycle he will have AVERAGE levels of testosterone, in most cases.

NOW, do the same thing with another guy with a FRESH HPTA, but use 200mgs of DECA instead.

He will be completely SHUTDOWN during and after. Period.

SO, I REPEAT, you CAN use Dianabol, Primobolan, and Turinabol with MINIMAL interference to the HPTA.
 
- Ross - said:
Did you REALLY just say that "testosterone and Deca are no more inhibitory than the 17aa orals" I had mentioned?

Deca is not more supressive than ANAVAR?!

Deca is not more supressive than TURINABOL!?

What about Proviron???? LOL

Bro, take a dude who has never cycled. Put him on 200mgs of primobolan for 8 weeks, get him tested DURING and AFTER.

During and after the Primobolan cycle he will have AVERAGE levels of testosterone, in most cases.

NOW, do the same thing with another guy with a FRESH HPTA, but use 200mgs of DECA instead.

He will be completely SHUTDOWN during and after. Period.

SO, I REPEAT, you CAN use Dianabol, Primobolan, and Turinabol with MINIMAL interference to thh HPTA.
Click to expand...

Yep, that’s what I said.

You are correct about Primo, but wrong about the 17aa orals.

-Pp
 
Primordial Performance said:
Yep, that’s what I said.

You are correct about Primo, but wrong about the 17aa orals.

-Pp
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, because I am shocked:

Deca is not more supressive than ANAVAR?!

Deca is not more supressive than TURINABOL!?

What about Proviron????

If you believe this, I have SEVERELY overestimated your intelligence. LOL

You are a good guy...I do enjoy the discourse. :chomp:
 
- Ross - said:
Just to clarify, because I am shocked:

Deca is not more supressive than ANAVAR?!

Deca is not more supressive than TURINABOL!?

What about Proviron????

If you believe this, I have SEVERELY overestimated your intelligence. LOL

You are a good guy...I do enjoy the discourse. :chomp:
Click to expand...

Ok bud, lets discourse.

What mg dose are you comparing Deca to Anavar?

-Pp
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ok bud, lets discourse.

What mg dose are you comparing Deca to Anavar?

-Pp
Click to expand...

Let's assume my minimum dosages for bridging or "Pre-PCT":

Anavar: 20mgs

Dianabol: 10-15mgs

Turinabol: 30mgs

Winstrol: 25mgs

Primobolan: 200mg(inj)/50mg(Oral)
 
- Ross - said:
ANY DOSE! :)

Let's assume a MINIMAL effective dosage, which is 200mgs.
Click to expand...

This is a totally skewed comparison because of pharmacokinetic differences of these drugs. One has 4 hr half-life, while the other has a 10 day half life.

At any rate, to make the comparison fair - it would be one shot of 200mg of Deca compared to 15mg/day of 17aa oral for TWO WEEKS. You would have about 60-70% inhibition of LH/FSH after the two weeks. So yes, I believe nandrolone is just as inhibitory as any 17aa oral you mentioned (give or take 10%)

-Pp
 
jesus christ get the fuck out of here Ross. TRENN.. this guy has been banned everywhere i have seen. actually no stay it gives me some comedy. your a joke

you are truely the biggest tool i have ever known
 
Primordial Performance said:
This is a totally skewed comparison because of pharmacokinetic differences of these drugs. One has 4 hr half-life, while the other has a 10 day half life.

At any rate, to make the comparison fair - it would be one shot of 200mg of Deca compared to 15mg/day of 17aa oral for TWO WEEKS. You would have about 60-70% inhibition of LH/FSH after the two weeks. So yes, I believe nandrolone is just as inhibitory as any 17aa oral you mentioned (give or take 10%)

-Pp
Click to expand...

In the study, done in the early 80´s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it´s normal value.

In the graph I posted on DECA above, 100% reduction in testosterone occured.

I respect you brotha, but you are WRONG on this one.

Deca is WAYYYYY more supressive than ANAVAR, Dianabol, or TURINABOL!

Not to mention, Primobolan, EQ, and Masteron are even LESS supressive!

These are facts.
 
- Ross - said:
Let's assume my minimum dosages for bridging or "Pre-PCT":

Anavar: 20mgs

Dianabol: 10-15mgs

Turinabol: 30mgs

Winstrol: 25mgs

Primobolan: 200mg(inj)/50mg(Oral)
Click to expand...



Dude, that's a cycle --close to 700 mgs a week.

I know this will appeal to a lot of guys because it gives them an excuse to stay on -- which is what we'd all like to do. But what you are talking about is not recoevery. It's simply substiuting a high dosed cycle with a lower one.
 
EXACTLY what this board needed....another tool promoting his own products under the guise of "helping newbies." I'm SOOOOOO glad to have different recommendations on who I should send my money to. Guess thats why we're circling the drain... Hopefully someone will flush and we can get back to business here.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Dude, that's a cycle --close to 700 mgs a week.

I know this will appeal to a lot of guys because it gives them an excuse to stay on -- which is what we'd all like to do. But what you are talking about is not recoevery. It's simply substiuting a high dosed cycle with a lower one.
Click to expand...

Don't use them all together!

20mgs ANAVAR ALONE!

30mgs Turinabol ALONE!

200mgs PRIMO ALONE!

20mgs of ANAVAR is a CYCLE? 15mgs of DIANABOL is a cycle?? LOL

Bro, those are the dosages that each compound can be used ALONE, while avoiding HPTA shutdown.

Pay attention big guy!:)
 
- Ross - said:
In the study, done in the early 80´s, a very high dose of Dbol (100mgs/day for 6 weeks) decreased plasma testosterone to about 40% of it´s normal value.

In the graph I posted on DECA above, 100% reduction in testosterone occured.

I respect you brotha, but you are WRONG on this one.

Deca is WAYYYYY more supressive than ANAVAR, Dianabol, or TURINABOL!

Not to mention, Primobolan, EQ, and Masteron are even LESS supressive!

These are facts.
Click to expand...

Ross.

Look at the graph...

The 100mg shot of Deca only caused a 70-80% decrease in test, similar to the suppression seen with the dosing of 17aa orals in the studies Ive posted.

Your best bet is to retort the statement about the pre-PCT with 17aa orals if you want to hold any credibility here.

-Pp

BTW, the original 100mg/Dbol study you’re referring to was from 1976 by GR Hervey et al -- Which I highly question the legitimacy of because of the dosages used and the fact they repeated the study 4 years later due to flawed design.

"Anabolic" effects of methandienone in men undergoing athletic training.
GR Hervey, I Hutchinson, AV Knibbs, L Burkinshaw, PR Jones, NG Norgan, and MJ Levell
Lancet, Oct 1976; 2(7988): 699-702.

Effects of methandienone on the performance and body composition of men undergoing athletic training.
GR Hervey, AV Knibbs, L Burkinshaw, DB Morgan, PR Jones, DR Chettle, and D Vartsky
Clin Sci (Lond), April 1, 1981; 60(4): 457-61
 
s8nlilhlpr said:
EXACTLY what this board needed....another tool promoting his own products under the guise of "helping newbies." I'm SOOOOOO glad to have different recommendations on who I should send my money to. Guess thats why we're circling the drain... Hopefully someone will flush and we can get back to business here.
Click to expand...

I have no products. LOL. Just trying to help.
 
I've read your posts. You claim you are posting "teasers" of a book to come. Exactly how is your book not a product you are promoting?
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ross.

Look at the graph...

The 100mg shot of Deca only caused a 70-80% decrease in test, similar to the suppression seen with the dosing of 17aa orals in the studies Ive posted.

Your best bet is to retort the statement about the pre-PCT with 17aa orals if you want to hold any credibility here.

-Pp

BTW, the original 100mg/Dbol study you’re referring to was from 1976 by GR Hervey et al -- Which I highly question the legitimacy of because of the dosages used and the fact they repeated the study 4 years later due to flawed design.

"Anabolic" effects of methandienone in men undergoing athletic training.
GR Hervey, I Hutchinson, AV Knibbs, L Burkinshaw, PR Jones, NG Norgan, and MJ Levell
Lancet, Oct 1976; 2(7988): 699-702.

Effects of methandienone on the performance and body composition of men undergoing athletic training.
GR Hervey, AV Knibbs, L Burkinshaw, DB Morgan, PR Jones, DR Chettle, and D Vartsky
Clin Sci (Lond), April 1, 1981; 60(4): 457-61
Click to expand...

So you are saying that Pre-PCT is effective ONLY if using Primobolan, Masteron, or some other non-supressive, NON 17aa compound?

What about Dianabol? Anavar? The studies you provided essentially CONFIRMED what I have been saying all along; the AMOUNT of supression caused by a particular steroid VARIES tremendously.

Furthermore, DARE I say that I have bloodwork confirming that one can maintain "normal" levels of testosterone while running Dianabol and Turinabol...:)
 
- Ross - said:
So you are saying that Pre-PCT is effective ONLY if using Primobolan, Masteron, or some other non-supressive, NON 17aa compound?

What about Dianabol? Anavar? The studies you provided essentially CONFIRMED what I have been saying all along; the AMOUNT of supression caused by a particular steroid VARIES tremendously.

Furthermore, DARE I say that I have bloodwork confirming that one can maintain "normal" levels of testosterone while running Dianabol and Turinabol...:)
Click to expand...

I can agree that one would be under much less suppression while using Primo, Masteron, rather than the 17aa orals.

Yes – Suppression VARIES tremendously between 2.5mg/day or 40mg/day. – your point?

Show me some blood tests of normal LH levels while taking 40mg of anavar, or 50mg of winny… and then I will be convinced.

-Pp
 
s8nlilhlpr said:
I've read your posts. You claim you are posting "teasers" of a book to come. Exactly how is your book not a product you are promoting?
Click to expand...

I have been helping out my brothers in iron WAYYYY before I even thought about writing a damn book.

I only WISH I had a "Ross" when I first started using AAS.
 
I guess the million dollar question is when would pre-PCT even fit into anyones cycle?

chances our most guys on here are going to run test or deca or something that shuts down HPTA function fully
it would stand to reason that you would want to do one of these compounts POST Pct, after HPTA function has been restored, not while you are shut down, that would seem to serve no purpose

so from what i am gathering, low dose primo, winny, var, tbol are all good to use for a few weeks inbetween cycles to stay anabolic(preventing a catabolic crash) before running antoher cycle?
been there done that, those compounds(with the exception of Dbol) have been used to bridge by everyone and thier grandmother for years. what is revolutionary about it?

maximal androgenic bursts--->HPTA recovery---bridge(why not just use non AAS like GH, slin, T3, clen, IGF-1, PGF, ect for this phase?)----> repeat
is that what you are trying to do? so as to stay anabolic year round?
 
My only point was that the 17aa oral will not allow HPTA recovery.

I could see how someone could do a cycle of primo or masteron and significantly avoid suppression and therefore bounce back quicker. But, I don’t see how any “pre-PCT” fits into anyone’s cycle as a way to quicken recovery. That’s what “on-cycle” HCG is for… and dermacrine sustain …. Jeez.

-Pp
 
Primordial Performance said:
Lol,..

I wish I had time to take pics rather than wasting time debunking the 40mg/day “Winny PCT protocol”.

-Pp
Click to expand...

Take 2 seconds and snap one bro, fuck all these newbies w/ no real knowledge - when did EF become the virgins guide to steroids site? With all the advice you give on this board it would be nice to see your 'body of work' so to speak.

I like your posts, but trust results and work more than books and witty remarks. I'm sure you can understand. Most of the 180lb'ers on EF think anything they read is gospel (especially if it has big word s and thinks like 17AA, etc, etc) , but most here are VERY new to this game - hell, look at how gear is spoke of here - not like a tool, but like a cure...hilarious. Buch of teeny tiny babies trying to use mens drugs ... I hate it if you can't tell yet!
 
I can say that I've run a couple of Anavar only cycles over the summer @ 40mg/ED (about 6-8 weeks length each) and the last Anavar cycle left my with shrunken nuts/depressed libido and it took me a while to recover. Never thought Anavar would do that but it did. It might not be completely suppressive, but it is suppressive enough that I don't think I would consider it as part of my PCT.

I only use it to cover the time the testosterone esters are clearing at the end of the cycle so I don't go 2-3 weeks with nothing before starting a regular PCT.
 
al420 said:
Take 2 seconds and snap one bro, fuck all these newbies w/ no real knowledge - when did EF become the virgins guide to steroids site? With all the advice you give on this board it would be nice to see your 'body of work' so to speak.

I like your posts, but trust results and work more than books and witty remarks. I'm sure you can understand. Most of the 180lb'ers on EF think anything they read is gospel (especially if it has big word s and thinks like 17AA, etc, etc) , but most here are VERY new to this game - hell, look at how gear is spoke of here - not like a tool, but like a cure...hilarious. Buch of teeny tiny babies trying to use mens drugs ... I hate it if you can't tell yet!
Click to expand...


To be honest, its hard to have your cake an eat it too. I spend ALL day on multiple forums, reading, marketing, researching, talking to customers, ect, ect. Ive completely lost the ability to go the gym over the past 6 months.-- its actually pretty frustrating.

I think there was a big thread about this the other day… as in a great trainer does not always go hand in hand with a great body. Ross is jacked, Ill give him that much, but his theory’s are way off base.

If you noticed, Ive never claimed to be 240 with 6% body fat. Im just an average guy that maintains an athletic build, that manages to keep women in his bed – whom pictures Id rather post than those of myself.

-Pp
 
I would rather see those as well...please post up.

I hear ya...Ross was blessed w/ good genetics, but he has also put in a LOT of time int he gym, kitchen, and w/ a sryinge. I seem to like personal experiences rather than Rat Driven science - I know all studies are not done on rats, but as you well know each of us will react differently to all compounds - steroids or not...hell, just listen to a Cymbalta commercial...may cause rectal bleeding...no thanks!!!!!
 
Wulfgar said:
I guess the million dollar question is when would pre-PCT even fit into anyones cycle?

chances our most guys on here are going to run test or deca or something that shuts down HPTA function fully
it would stand to reason that you would want to do one of these compounts POST Pct, after HPTA function has been restored, not while you are shut down, that would seem to serve no purpose

so from what i am gathering, low dose primo, winny, var, tbol are all good to use for a few weeks inbetween cycles to stay anabolic(preventing a catabolic crash) before running antoher cycle?
been there done that, those compounds(with the exception of Dbol) have been used to bridge by everyone and thier grandmother for years. what is revolutionary about it?

maximal androgenic bursts--->HPTA recovery---bridge(why not just use non AAS like GH, slin, T3, clen, IGF-1, PGF, ect for this phase?)----> repeat
is that what you are trying to do? so as to stay anabolic year round?
Click to expand...

Pre-PCT is to be used BEFORE PCT!!

Aftr your Test/Deca cycle, you ar SHUTDOWN! The GOAL is to TRANSITION from SHUTDOWN, to INIHIBITED, to RECOVERED.

You can NOT just go from SHUTDOWN straight into PCT.

Let's say you run TEST and DECA for 10 weeks.

I SAY, rather than going straight into PCT, run Primobolan at 300mgs for another 4-6 weeks! This will allow the HPTA to BEGIN RECOVERING while your body still remains in an anabolic state. THEN, after the 6 weeks of Primo, RUN PCT!
 
al420 said:
I would rather see those as well...please post up.

I hear ya...Ross was blessed w/ good genetics, but he has also put in a LOT of time int he gym, kitchen, and w/ a sryinge. I seem to like personal experiences rather than Rat Driven science - I know all studies are not done on rats, but as you well know each of us will react differently to all compounds - steroids or not...hell, just listen to a Cymbalta commercial...may cause rectal bleeding...no thanks!!!!!
Click to expand...

AMEN!

40% KNOWLEDGE

40% EFFORT

20% JUICE

I have dedicated YEARS to building my physique. Thank you for recognizing brotha.

And YES, sometimes REAL-WORLD application is more valid than some abstract clinical study.

Experience and SCIENCE come together to form the base of all of my theories.
 
I don't think you have to be "jacked" to be credible. I do think it lends to your credibility if you have first hand experience along with the book knowledge. Job/family/community/travel responsibilities can take away from your ability to stay continually at your peak condition - been there done that.

I don't ever remember a picture of Dan Duchaine "jacked" but he was pretty well respected.
 
tshoot said:
I don't think you have to be "jacked" to be credible. I do think it lends to your credibility if you have first hand experience along with the book knowledge. Job/family/community/travel responsibilities can take away from your ability to stay continually at your peak condition - been there done that.

I don't ever remember a picture of Dan Duchaine "jacked" but he was pretty well respected.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Primordial Performance said:
Sorry to be abrasive, but I had to call this out.

You need to post abstracts if your going to say this kind of stuff. The only thing is, the research that is available doesn’t support what your saying.

Show me the 100mg/day dbol study.

-Pp
Click to expand...
that dbol pct bullshit again who the fuck keeps trying to bring this back....its fucking crap people fucking crap
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Primordial Performance said:
Ross,

You are partly correct about the proviron and primo being only very mildly suppressive. But this is not the case with 17aa orals.

Letting up on the brakes of suppression by 10-20% is not going to allow anybody to recover. You cant expect to take a “less suppressive” AAS in hopes of allowing your testes to kick up production. Hell, your HPTA can barely recover when AAS are dropped all together, and even super-physiological doses of HCG therapy takes time to reach full recovery.

Let me dip into the cookie jar…

Here is Dbol as contraceptive at only 15mg/day (I like to call this shutdown) -

Effects of an anabolic steroid (metandienone) on spermatogenesis.
PK Holma
Contraception, Feb 1977; 15(2): 151-62.

A 15mg/day dose caused a 50% reduction in LH & FSH and a 69% decrease in testosterone levels. -

Effect of an anabolic steroid (metandienon) on plasma LH-FSH, and testosterone and on the response to intravenous administration of LRH.
P Holma and H Adlercreutz
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Dec 1976; 83(4): 856-64.
Only 2.5mg/day of anavar suppressing Lh 40% and testosterone production 50% -

Malhotra A, Poon E, Tse WY, Pringle PJ, Hindmarsh PC, Brook CG 1993 The effects of oxandrolone on the growth hormone and gonadal axes in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty. Clin Endocrinol 38:393–398

Anavar in ratz brought LH to undetectable levels and FSH below 88% of base line. -

The effects of an anabolic steroid (oxandrolone) on reproductive development in the male rat.
BH Grokett, N Ahmad, and DW Warren
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh), Feb 1992; 126(2): 173-8.

In only 14 days of 10mg/day stanozolol lowered testosterone 55% -

Alteration of hormone levels in normal males given the anabolic steroid stanozolol.
M Small, GH Beastall, CG Semple, RA Cowan, and CD Forbes
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf), Jul 1984; 21(1): 49-55.
Click to expand...
ooooooooooo
 
so let me get this str8.....I can take test-e 500mg ew 12weeks deca 400mg ew 10 weeks
then if I switch to promo 800mg ew and use that for say another 15 weeks then say I dont know switch to 50mg dbol ed for 4 weeks I will be nice and ready for pct lol
just use some clomid and I am good to go right.lol
 
needtogetaas said:
so let me get this str8.....I can take test-e 500mg ew 12weeks deca 400mg ew 10 weeks
then if I switch to promo 800mg ew and use that for say another 15 weeks then say I dont know switch to 50mg dbol ed for 4 weeks I will be nice and ready for pct lol
just use some clomid and I am good to go right.lol
Click to expand...

No brotha...

Just run Primo at 200mgs for an additional 4-6 weeks PAST your final steroid dose.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

- Ross - said:
No brotha...

Just run Primo at 200mgs for an additional 4-6 weeks PAST your final steroid dose.
Click to expand...
ya ill get right on that...... :rolleyes: cant wait to start my 300 dolor pct
 
if your payin 300 your gettin hosed haha, if its true, id rather drop some cash to keep growing

id like to see some bloodwork done on a subject while doing this pre-pct to get an actual answer.. sounds interesting though, bump
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

jmead said:
if your payin 300 your gettin hosed haha, if its true, id rather drop some cash to keep growing

id like to see some bloodwork done on a subject while doing this pre-pct to get an actual answer.. sounds interesting though, bump
Click to expand...
I know I know I was just exaggerating for the fun of it.....I dont think its a bad idea to end a cycle with primo at all but i still think reg pct should be don after that.
 
jmead said:
id like to see some bloodwork done on a subject while doing this pre-pct to get an actual answer.. sounds interesting though, bump
Click to expand...

Agree 100%, but unless it has already been done, it would take months (if not longer) to get back the info for one test subject much less multiple test subjects.
 
Well when you get down to the real science of things, I don't think it's fair to take a shot at all of the guys who aren't Bio Chemistry majors. It's best to learns as much as you can, I think learning is the real point of the whole game. Learning is how you progress. It can get confusing though when you have guys like Nelson, PP, and Ross arguing theories and ideas and what not. It can be easy to get lost or not know who to beleive. From is first post, I knew Ross was selling something, just not quite yet. And gusy like Nelson and PP seem knowledgable as well, but I for one am always weary of those who are trying to sell you something, because what is their real motive? At first glance at all of this debate, I must say that I am leaning towards PP and Nelson. No offense to you Ross.
 
no offense but aren't you the guy that ran 100mg of var with 100mg of tbol and then got banned for scamming or some shit. this is not a new concept and in no way are their studies to back that your test is coming back. the only thing you can go by is experience. all the good vets i know around here use a short ester while their long ester is clearing. if you are running a short cycle say 6 weeks of tren and prop you go right into pct. aside from that using proviron at the end of a cycle or throughout it greatly increases recovery. i have no studies to back this just the fact that i kept 17 of 25 lbs gained doing it that way and lost all and then some when i did it the old way
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Bruce said:
no offense but aren't you the guy that ran 100mg of var with 100mg of tbol and then got banned for scamming or some shit. this is not a new concept and in no way are their studies to back that your test is coming back. the only thing you can go by is experience. all the good vets i know around here use a short ester while their long ester is clearing. if you are running a short cycle say 6 weeks of tren and prop you go right into pct. aside from that using proviron at the end of a cycle or throughout it greatly increases recovery. i have no studies to back this just the fact that i kept 17 of 25 lbs gained doing it that way and lost all and then some when i did it the old way
Click to expand...
lol was he
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Xconcept00 said:
#1 i feel bad for ross' testicles
#2 just because your "jacked" don't mean you got brains
Click to expand...
llmao at 1
 
The only problem I see here, Ross, is that 4-6 weeks would not be enough time to allow any upstart of the HPTA if your starting with a 100% shutdown state. I can see your logic here and the pre-PCT is not for me but if you were to run it for like 10-12 weeks I could see a semblance of natural test having come back from the dead and then you would be primed for PCT.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Sam5 said:
The only problem I see here, Ross, is that 4-6 weeks would not be enough time to allow any upstart of the HPTA if your starting with a 100% shutdown state. I can see your logic here and the pre-PCT is not for me but if you were to run it for like 10-12 weeks I could see a semblance of natural test having come back from the dead and then you would be primed for PCT.
Click to expand...
well he said run the primo out 4 weeks.so i think he was saying to run the primo the hole cycle and 4 weeks out past every thing else???? could be wrong though.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

needtogetaas said:
well he said run the primo out 4 weeks.so i think he was saying to run the primo the hole cycle and 4 weeks out past every thing else???? could be wrong though.
Click to expand...
I understand that, but I still don't think being on a mildly suppressive steroid for only 4 weeks after a completely suppressive cycle is enough to even allow your body to respond with any amount of recovery.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Sam5 said:
I understand that, but I still don't think being on a mildly suppressive steroid for only 4 weeks after a completely suppressive cycle is enough to even allow your body to respond with any amount of recovery.
Click to expand...
o ok :)
 
- Ross - said:
Don't use them all together!

20mgs ANAVAR ALONE!

30mgs Turinabol ALONE!

200mgs PRIMO ALONE!

20mgs of ANAVAR is a CYCLE? 15mgs of DIANABOL is a cycle?? LOL

Bro, those are the dosages that each compound can be used ALONE, while avoiding HPTA shutdown.

Pay attention big guy!:)
Click to expand...

Okay, my bad. So what you're essentially suggesting (if I'm not mistaken) is a sort of taper -- which although is out of vouge, I don't think is such a bad idea. In fact, in my "PERFECT CYCLE" chapter in "BOTTOM LINE BODYBUILDING" I suggest ending with low androgenic orals for what I'm suspecting is the same reason as you. So in that regard, we may be on the same page.
:)
 
FWIW my last 4 cycles have ended with TBol or Anavar or both and I absolutely love it. I know for a fact I recover quicker (from lab tests) when I allow my esters to clear while using "low androgenic orals" as Montana called them.

You allow your esters to taper towards zero (through their natural half lifes), while maintaining an anabolic state with 40mg TBol ED. This way, when you start PCT that 80mg of inhibitory Test E that is still left from your shot 2 weeks ago isn't leaving you in limbo and rendering your PCT useless. I love Ross' theory and although I am not trying to claim it as my own, it is basically the protocol I have used for about a year now HOWEVER, there is another phase that he left out (and should most definitely add because I never will) and that is this:

Post PCT:
Week 1-4 IGF-1 60mcg
Week 5-8 Slin 10iu ED
Week 5-8 GHRP (optional)
Week 9-13 IGF-1 60mcg ED
Week 14 NEW CYCLE!

Could obviously play with PGF2, MGF, Clen (cortisol suppression during PCT) etc..
 
Ya know, I do like the idea of going cold-turkey with AAS. Using the oral as a final part of the cycle is a great idea to keep levels high while long-esters clear, and then dropping the orals for a quick clearance.

Still, there really is no reason to think that your actually recovering during that time though. It’s a good protocol, but for different reasons than were originally outlined.

-Pp
 
dont mean to get in the middle of a good debate but people have got me thinking. Is this ross.. the guy who got kicked off numerous forums that i belong to and who once posted under then name THE MASTER here and got kicked off within a few weeks?
Just curious.... go on with the debate
 
i dont know if you guys are famillar with Professionalmuscle.com forums but BIGA(i believe owner moderator/ pro bodybuilder) talks about using low dose anavar for a few weeks after a cycle.... Dont know if its the same thing yor saying
 
Primordial Performance said:
Ya know, I do like the idea of going cold-turkey with AAS. Using the oral as a final part of the cycle is a great idea to keep levels high while long-esters clear, and then dropping the orals for a quick clearance.

Still, there really is no reason to think that your actually recovering during that time though. It’s a good protocol, but for different reasons than were originally outlined.

-Pp
Click to expand...

What you are describing is the FINISHER. We are on the same page:)

ACTIVE recovery is basically a "bridge" that is executed PRIOR to PCT, allowing the HPTA to begin recovering while still receiving anabolic support. This CAN be done, contrary to popular opinion. The bloodwork to prove it is coming soon...
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Sam5 said:
I understand that, but I still don't think being on a mildly suppressive steroid for only 4 weeks after a completely suppressive cycle is enough to even allow your body to respond with any amount of recovery.
Click to expand...

In 4-6 weeks, your HPTA will BEGIN to recover. I have bloodwork to confirm this.
 
Nelson Montana said:
Okay, my bad. So what you're essentially suggesting (if I'm not mistaken) is a sort of taper -- which although is out of vouge, I don't think is such a bad idea. In fact, in my "PERFECT CYCLE" chapter in "BOTTOM LINE BODYBUILDING" I suggest ending with low androgenic orals for what I'm suspecting is the same reason as you. So in that regard, we may be on the same page.
:)
Click to expand...

The objective is to TRANSITION from SHUTDOWN, to INHIBITED, to RECOVERED.

We are on the same page brotha
 
SO what your saying is something like this:
my cycle,
1-20 sust 125 ed
1-12 masteron 75 ed
10-18 tren 75 ed
20-24 masteron (pre-pct) 75 mg EOD
24-28 clomid 50 mg ed

32-52 new cycle :)
 
why in the hell would you ever come off of primo as short ester, its not a short ester its enth.
 
Primordial Performance said:
If your interested in preventing suppression while on AAS this article may be of some interest to you guys –

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/potratz/opioid-modulation.htm

Have you had a chance to read this Ross?

-Pp
Click to expand...

Good read. Now I just need to know where I can find Naloxone, Naltrexone or Nalmefene. And I guess no more weekend social drinking since these drugs kill the high from the alcohol. Also, since the article also mentions Arimidex, Aromasin and Letro as ways to reduce estrogen during the cycle, what are you recommending to prevent suppression from the nandrolone based AAS like Tren/Deca/NPP - Cabergoline .5 mg E3D? I know that the article recommends not using nandrolones but I don't think that is going to happen - Tren and Deca are still too popular here. Do you have any suggestions?

Also, do you know anyone who has tried this protocol successfully while using AAS? The theories sound plausible but I like real world experience.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

- Ross - said:
In 4-6 weeks, your HPTA will BEGIN to recover. I have bloodwork to confirm this.
Click to expand...
Even if you've been on moderate to high doses of test and deca for almost a year. My educated intuition would tell me not. I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but that someone like me would need to administer the low androgenic oral much longer to get the desired effect that you speak of. IMO I think that cruising is more apt for my situation or HRT, but I would just administer that myself anyways.
 
Bruce said:
why in the hell would you ever come off of primo as short ester, its not a short ester its enth.
Click to expand...

Using Primobolan Enanthate or Acetate for a FINISHER or for ACTIVE recovery is fine, because it is so minimally supressive.

In a FINISHER, we use the Primobolan while our long-estered Testosterone clears the system. Using the Oral Acetate, we can discontinue the Primo exactly 2 weeks after our final testosterone shot, and then immediately begin PCT. This way, we remain anabolic right up until PCT!

During an active recovery, we use Primobolan while the HPTA BEGINS to recover.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Sam5 said:
Even if you've been on moderate to high doses of test and deca for almost a year. My educated intuition would tell me not. I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but that someone like me would need to administer the low androgenic oral much longer to get the desired effect that you speak of. IMO I think that cruising is more apt for my situation or HRT, but I would just administer that myself anyways.
Click to expand...

If you are on Testosterone and Deca for over a YEAR, then you DEFINITELY require a LONGER ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD.

Good questions brotha!
 
- Ross - said:
Using Primobolan Enanthate or Acetate for a FINISHER or for ACTIVE recovery is fine, because it is so minimally supressive.

In a FINISHER, we use the Primobolan while our long-estered Testosterone clears the system. Using the Oral Acetate, we can discontinue the Primo exactly 2 weeks after our final testosterone shot, and then immediately begin PCT. This way, we remain anabolic right up until PCT!

During an active recovery, we use Primobolan while the HPTA BEGINS to recover.
Click to expand...
Ok, but what about compounds like dbol which are much more supressive than primo?
Or is the dose that you suggest for these particular compounds low enough to not cause any issues?
 
Mac173 said:
Ok, but what about compounds like dbol which are much more supressive than primo?
Or is the dose that you suggest for these particular compounds low enough to not cause any issues?
Click to expand...

Precisely!

At 10-15mgs ED, Dianabol will allow for partial HPTA recovery.

So will 20mgs of Anavar, 30mgs of Turinabol, 200mgs of Masteron, 200mgs of Primo, 25mgs of Winstrol, and 200mgs of EQ.

If you exceed my suggested dosages, you will NOT recover. At higher dosages, most of these compounds WILL cause significant HPTA inhibition.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

- Ross - said:
If you are on Testosterone and Deca for over a YEAR, then you DEFINITELY require a LONGER ACTIVE RECOVERY PERIOD.

Good questions brotha!
Click to expand...
Thats what I was thinking. Sorry if I wasn't applying my questions right.
I've only been on the deca since the end of January of this year, but the test I have been doing for close to 11 months. I'm starting a cruise right now of 200mg of cyp every 6th day and I'll do that for awhile unless my weight starts really dropping and everything just starts going to shit. I feel right now that I am just wasting gear so whats the point. All things combined I'm doing 2.5 grams a week and not moving in weight or strength.
 
Re: *The Perpetual Muscle Mass EXPLOSION: Pre-PCT(Active Recovery), Bridging & Cruisi

Sam5 said:
Thats what I was thinking. Sorry if I wasn't applying my questions right.
I've only been on the deca since the end of January of this year, but the test I have been doing for close to 11 months. I'm starting a cruise right now of 200mg of cyp every 6th day and I'll do that for awhile unless my weight starts really dropping and everything just starts going to shit. I feel right now that I am just wasting gear so whats the point. All things combined I'm doing 2.5 grams a week and not moving in weight or strength.
Click to expand...

Sam5, were you making consistent gains for most of the 11 months? Also, how is your libido and testicular size after this long of a cycle? I can't imagine runnining non-stop for that long but it must have been working for you.
 
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