Dermacrine !??

Twoguns · Feb 6, 2007

Ok, I followed the link under MR X's signature to read about this Dermacrine stuff. One heck of an impressive website. So is this a version of AIFM or something. Does anyone have any unbiased opinions. Don't bash so the thread doesn't get shut down.

Primordial Performance · Feb 7, 2007

Twoguns said:
Ok, I followed the link under MR X's signature to read about this Dermacrine stuff. One heck of an impressive website. So is this a version of AIFM or something. Does anyone have any unbiased opinions. Don't bash so the thread doesn't get shut down.

Hello,

First of all, Id like to introduce myself as the primary owner of Primordial Performance. As you have been reading, our current flag-ship product is our testosterone boosting topical --Dermacrine, along with the saliva kits we sell to test your hormones.

After about 12 months of product development, cross referencing of thousands of scientific studies of different hormones & aromatase inhibitors, and performing dozens saliva hormone analysis’s on testers we feel have reached the pinnacle point in designing one of the most advanced formulas on the market.

I know some of you are curious about what makes our product different from other topical based testosterone booster / anti-estrogen based products. Let me take a moment to explain the unique properties of Dermacrine –

Dermacrine contains both DHEA and pregenolone. The DHEA was included for the obvious benefit of boosting testosterone. The pregnenolone was included for several neurological reasons, but also for its conversion to progesterone. Progesterone is crucial for preventing excessive conversion of testosterone > DHT. This makes dermacrine a great choice those concerned with prostate of hair loss issues.

Our choice of resveratrol, benzoflavone and chrysin (our phyto-AI complex) as estrogen reducers stem from the studies which show these natural polyphenols to be incredible fertility enhancers, meaning they have positive effects on the HTPA, LH and FSH. The research even points out that another undiscovered mechanism is involved, and estrogen inhibition is only half the story. Furthermore, our Phyto-AI complex also has various hearth health benefits, related to the vaso-relaxant properties, as well as being powerful anti-oxidants. Make no mistake, these are some powerful components, some of which have shown to bind to aromatase stronger than formestane (the reference standard) You can find this material referenced on our site - http://www.primordialperformance.com/benefits.cfm

The reason we didn’t include ATD is because it is a steroidal-based aromatase inhibitor which means it was designed off of the testosterone platform. Since ATD resembles testosterone’s structure, it competes for the aromatase enzyme, only it cannot be converted to estrogen like testosterone can. However, all steroidal based inhibitors tend to mimic the action of there parent compound, which means they can inhibit steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus and testis by directly interacting with the androgen receptor (AR) and lowering LH & FSH release. All related compounds, including ATD, formestane, aromasin, ect follow the same rules. They look like androgens, so they act like androgens… and therefore suppress testosterone production via the AR. IMO, these steroidal based inhibitors would not suite our type of product designed for PCT. For more referenced info on this visit here - http://www.primordialperformance.com/benefits.cfm

You may ask. Why include DHEA and pregnenolone if our phyto AI complex is so effective? Well, the answer is not simple. Basically if you don’t use your testis they shrink. The same rules apply to your steroidogenic enzymes. If you don’t use em, you lose em. DHEA and pregnenolone make your body use these steroidogenic enzymes that where inhibited and degraded during your massive steroid cycle. See our hormone tree page for more info on this. http://www.primordialperformance.com/hormone_tree.cfm

The combination of The Phyto-AI complex and the well balanced hormones in Dermacrine make it one hell of a PCT product, and we plan to prove this with our soon-to-be testers whom will be testing the product and there hormones before and after.

Stay tuned.

-Pp

Jimbo15 · Feb 8, 2007

needtogetaas · Feb 8, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
Hello,

First of all, Id like to introduce myself as the primary owner of Primordial Performance. As you have been reading, our current flag-ship product is our testosterone boosting topical --Dermacrine, along with the saliva kits we sell to test your hormones.

After about 12 months of product development, cross referencing of thousands of scientific studies of different hormones & aromatase inhibitors, and performing dozens saliva hormone analysis’s on testers we feel have reached the pinnacle point in designing one of the most advanced formulas on the market.

I know some of you are curious about what makes our product different from other topical based testosterone booster / anti-estrogen based products. Let me take a moment to explain the unique properties of Dermacrine –

Dermacrine contains both DHEA and pregenolone. The DHEA was included for the obvious benefit of boosting testosterone. The pregnenolone was included for several neurological reasons, but also for its conversion to progesterone. Progesterone is crucial for preventing excessive conversion of testosterone > DHT. This makes dermacrine a great choice those concerned with prostate of hair loss issues.

Our choice of resveratrol, benzoflavone and chrysin (our phyto-AI complex) as estrogen reducers stem from the studies which show these natural polyphenols to be incredible fertility enhancers, meaning they have positive effects on the HTPA, LH and FSH. The research even points out that another undiscovered mechanism is involved, and estrogen inhibition is only half the story. Furthermore, our Phyto-AI complex also has various hearth health benefits, related to the vaso-relaxant properties, as well as being powerful anti-oxidants. Make no mistake, these are some powerful components, some of which have shown to bind to aromatase stronger than formestane (the reference standard) You can find this material referenced on our site - http://www.primordialperformance.com/benefits.cfm

The reason we didn’t include ATD is because it is a steroidal-based aromatase inhibitor which means it was designed off of the testosterone platform. Since ATD resembles testosterone’s structure, it competes for the aromatase enzyme, only it cannot be converted to estrogen like testosterone can. However, all steroidal based inhibitors tend to mimic the action of there parent compound, which means they can inhibit steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus and testis by directly interacting with the androgen receptor (AR) and lowering LH & FSH release. All related compounds, including ATD, formestane, aromasin, ect follow the same rules. They look like androgens, so they act like androgens… and therefore suppress testosterone production via the AR. IMO, these steroidal based inhibitors would not suite our type of product designed for PCT. For more referenced info on this visit here - http://www.primordialperformance.com/benefits.cfm

You may ask. Why include DHEA and pregnenolone if our phyto AI complex is so effective? Well, the answer is not simple. Basically if you don’t use your testis they shrink. The same rules apply to your steroidogenic enzymes. If you don’t use em, you lose em. DHEA and pregnenolone make your body use these steroidogenic enzymes that where inhibited and degraded during your massive steroid cycle. See our hormone tree page for more info on this. http://www.primordialperformance.com/hormone_tree.cfm

The combination of The Phyto-AI complex and the well balanced hormones in Dermacrine make it one hell of a PCT product, and we plan to prove this with our soon-to-be testers whom will be testing the product and there hormones before and after.

Stay tuned.

-Pp

nice

Big Rick Rock · Feb 8, 2007

good info...

Twoguns · Feb 8, 2007

it does sound promising.

Ulter · Feb 8, 2007

I just want to make it clear that no one is suggesting, that I can see, that this product is the same or is to be used like AIFM is currently being used for cycling. They are recommending their product for PCT, NOT for use on a gram of test. At least that's what I'm reading.

mm107 · Feb 8, 2007

this is going to be a good thread =]

Primordial Performance · Feb 8, 2007

Ulter said:
I just want to make it clear that no one is suggesting, that I can see, that this product is the same or is to be used like AIFM is currently being used for cycling. They are recommending their product for PCT, NOT for use on a gram of test. At least that's what I'm reading.

To answer your question; Yes, we are promoting Dermacrine as a PCT product.

If Dermacrine was used during a heavy cycle of test I would suggest the use of an additional aromatase inhibitor or SERM if one was especially sensitive to estrogenic side effects.

However, I think the estrogenic side effects of testosterone are generally overstated. We must remember that testosterone is a big boy, and generally prefers the man pathway over the female pathway. More specifically, about 6-8% of testosterone interacts with the 5a-reductase enzyme (man pathway), while only about 0.3% is being converted to estradiol.(female pathway) As we know, the 5-alpha reduced metabolites of testosterone are strong antagonizers of estrogen and can usually ward off gyno, water bloat, ect. Those that suffer estrogenic side effects from a gram of testosterone are usually those with a higher aromatase concentration (higher body fat), or are using it in combination with other drugs such as trenbolone, deca, d-bol, hGH, IGF-1, finestride, ect.

-Pp

Ulter · Feb 8, 2007

The things you're posting are wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start. AI's are a poor choice for hypogonadism because they surpress T production? See: below
Test will inhibit Estrogen, and therefore water retention, and gyno, enough all by itself so men don't need an anti E while on cycles of test? That's um... revolutionary.

However, all steroidal based inhibitors tend to mimic the action of there parent compound, which means they can inhibit steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus and testis by directly interacting with the androgen receptor (AR) and lowering LH & FSH release. All related compounds, including ATD, formestane, aromasin, ect follow the same rules. They look like androgens, so they act like androgens… and therefore suppress testosterone production via the AR. IMO, these steroidal based inhibitors would not suite our type of product designed for PCT.

Maybe you can explain why testolactone (steroidal-based AI) didn't inhibit but rather ignited test, LH, FSH production in these studies. This seems to argue that your statements are incorrect.

1: Metabolism. 2003 Sep;52(9):1126-8. Links
Reversal of the hypogonadotropic hypogonadism of obese men by administration of the aromatase inhibitor testolactone.Zumoff B, Miller LK, Strain GW.
Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Beth Israel Medical Center, New York, NY 10003, USA.

Studies from this laboratory have shown that obese men have elevated serum estrogen levels and diminished levels of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and free and total testosterone, all in proportion to their degree of obesity. The decreases in testosterone and FSH constitute a state of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HHG), and we have hypothesized that it results from feedback suppression of the pituitary by the elevated estrogen levels. We tested this hypothesis by lowering the serum estrogens of 6 health obese men (body mass index [BMI], 38 to 73) by administering the aromatase inhibitor testolactone (1 g daily for 6 weeks). Twenty-four-hour mean serum testosterone rose in every subject, from a mean of 290 +/- 165 ng/dL to a mean of 403 +/- 170 (P <.0003); 24-hour mean serum estradiol decreased in every subject, from a mean of 40 +/- 10.8 pg/mL to a mean of 29 +/- 6.7 (P <.004); and 24-hour mean serum luteinizing hormone (LH) increased in every subject, from a mean of 14.3 +/- 4.1 mIU/mL to a mean of 19.3 +/- 5.1 (P <.004). The rise in mean LH was due to an increase in the amplitude of the individual secretory pulses, especially at night. Twenty-four-hour mean serum estrone decreased nonsignificantly, from 48 +/- 14 pg/mL to 39 +/- 6.4, and 24-hour mean serum FSH increased nonsignificantly, from 13.5 +/- 5.3 mIU/mL to 15.0 +/- 5.4. The results are in accordance with the hypothesis, in that inhibition of estrogen biosynthesis (through administration of the aromatase inhibitor testolactone) results in alleviation of the HHG of our obese male subjects.

: J Urol. 2002 Feb;167(2 Pt 1):624-9. Links
Comment in:
J Urol. 2002 Oct;168(4 Pt 1):1509.
Aromatase inhibitors for male infertility.Raman JD, Schlegel PN.
Department of Urology, James Buchanan Brady Urology Foundation, Center for Male Reproductive Medicine and Microsurgery, New York Presbyterian Hospital, Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, New York, USA.

PURPOSE: Testosterone-to-estradiol ratio levels in infertile men improve during treatment with the aromatase inhibitor, testolactone, and resulting changes in semen parameters. We evaluated the effect of anastrozole, a more selective aromatase inhibitor, on the hormonal and semen profiles of infertile men with abnormal baseline testosterone-to-estradiol ratios. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A total of 140 subfertile men with abnormal testosterone-to-estradiol ratios were treated with 100 to 200 mg. testolactone daily or 1 mg. anastrozole daily. Changes in testosterone, estradiol, testosterone-to-estradiol ratios and semen parameters were evaluated during therapy. The effect of obesity, diagnosis of the Klinefelter syndrome, and presence of varicocele and/or history of varicocele repair on treatment results was studied. RESULTS: Men treated with testolactone had an increase in testosterone-to-estradiol ratios during therapy (mean plus or minus standard error of the mean 5.3 +/- 0.2 versus 12.4 +/- 1.1, p <0.001). This change was confirmed in subgroups of men with the Klinefelter syndrome, a history of varicocele repair and those with varicocele. A total of 12 oligospermic men had semen analysis before and during testolactone treatment with an increase in sperm concentration (5.5 versus 11.2 million sperm per ml., p <0.01), motility (14.7% versus 21.0%, p <0.05), morphology (6.5% versus 12.8%, p = 0.05), and motility index (606.3 versus 1685.2 million motile sperm per ejaculate, respectively, p <0.05) appreciated. During anastrozole treatment, similar changes in the testosterone-to-estradiol ratios were seen (7.2 +/- 0.3 versus 18.1 +/- 1.0, respectively, p <0.001). This improvement of hormonal parameters was noted for all subgroups except those patients with the Klinefelter syndrome. A total of 25 oligospermic men with semen analysis before and during anastrozole treatment had an increase in semen volume (2.9 versus 3.5 ml., p <0.05), sperm concentration (5.5 versus 15.6 million sperm per ml., p <0.001) and motility index (832.8 versus 2930.8 million motile sperm per ejaculate, respectively, p <0.005). These changes were similar to those observed in men treated with testolactone. No significant difference in serum testosterone levels during treatment with testolactone and anastrozole was observed. However, the anastrozole treatment group did have a statistically better improvement of serum estradiol concentration and testosterone-to-estradiol ratios (p <0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Men who are infertile with a low serum testosterone-to-estradiol ratio can be treated with an aromatase inhibitor. With treatment, an increase in testosterone-to-estradiol ratio occurred in association with increased semen parameters. Anastrozole and testolactone have similar effects on hormonal profiles and semen analysis. Anastrazole appears to be at least as effective as testolactone for treating men with abnormal testosterone-to-estradiol ratios, except for the subset with the Klinefelter syndrome, who appeared to be more effectively treated with testolactone.

Cutt29 · Feb 8, 2007

PP care to adress this claim you made to me on OLM last week??

Primordial Performance said:
We feel that our product blows HCG out of the water. It really is a whole different kind of monster.

Twoguns · Feb 8, 2007

here we go (I'm giddy !)

needtogetaas · Feb 8, 2007

were is mrx and anthony roberts lets here what they have to say.I think they are smart guys.

needtogetaas · Feb 8, 2007

btw fuck clomid and nolva I always feel like a girl when I use them.only reason I ever used them was because there is so much shit on here about how you need them I felt like I had to take them.I have gon as high as a gram of test 500mg deca with 60mg ed dbol with out them and never neft a hard nip or any thing.ya I got bloated a bit but I liked it.lubed the joints and gave me more power.once I got of the bloat was gone.then I used cee,no,and other stuff and only lost a little of my gains.

I really could care less about pct I just want to see if this new tuff can raise my test levels if it can well then fuck ya if it can well then fuck no.

Twoguns · Feb 8, 2007

yeah, I agree with ya on the clomid thing. I am in week three and I feel like a little bitch. I wanted to cry at the end of the movie Invincible and I have been watching George Michael videos on Youtube.

needtogetaas · Feb 8, 2007

Twoguns said:
yeah, I agree with ya on the clomid thing. I am in week three and I feel like a little bitch. I wanted to cry at the end of the movie Invincible and I have been watching George Michael videos on Youtube.

george michael bro.dame

D_Mac · Feb 8, 2007

Twoguns said:
yeah, I agree with ya on the clomid thing. I am in week three and I feel like a little bitch. I wanted to cry at the end of the movie Invincible and I have been watching George Michael videos on Youtube.

Lol I know what you mean. I had the worst experience of my life on Clomid, I just ended a cycle and started clomid and then fell in love with this girl. She was nothing special but the clomid made me want to fall in love and suckle the first teet I could find. I came on WAY too strong because of the clomid and basically wanted to marry her after two weeks. She of course dumped me and I about killed myself from the grief. Two weeks later I get off clomid and it was like waking up after a hard night of drinking "what the hell did I do last month?"

-D

Primordial Performance · Feb 8, 2007

Ulter said:
The things you're posting are wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start. AI's are a poor choice for hypogonadism because they surpress T production? See: below
Test will inhibit Estrogen, and therefore water retention, and gyno, enough all by itself so men don't need an anti E while on cycles of test? That's um... revolutionary.

Ulter,

I assume your using teslac abstracts as an example because you agree that all steroidal based aromatase inhibitors share the same properties. Fair enough.

I also assume that you know estrogen is not the only hormone involved in the negative feedback loop?

Both studies you refer to are using men with an abnormaly high estrogen level. I have no doubt that reducing super-physiological estrogen to normal levels will increase testosterone every time, but this could be achieved with any AI.

Unfortunately we are probably not dealing with obese men who have abnormal levels of estrogen. I presume that most members of this board are in fairly good shape and are probably using some kind of AI during a cycle, and therefore begining PCT with a semi-normal estrogen level.

If this is the case, less estrogen does not always mean more testosterone, and when you bring estrogen down to sub-physiological levels you begin to have problems with leydig responsiveness as well as direct androgen receptor suppression coming from a molecule that …. well…. acts like an androgen.

Aromatase inhibitors prevent granulosa cell differentiation: an obligatory role for estrogens in luteinizing hormone receptor expression
M Knecht, AM Brodie, and KJ Catt
Endocrinology, Sep 1985; 117: 1156.

Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

Now, I know you have plenty of product testers and friends on this board who may say otherwise, but from the anecdotal reports Ive seen (including my own experiences), ATD kills sex drive, negatively influences cholesterol profiles and “dry’s” out your joints… all related to having sub-physiological estrogen levels from an overly powerful steroidal AI.

The studies with rats don’t show a positive result either. ATD hurts fertility and it even appears that it promotes homosexuality…..

Antifertility effects of an aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene- 3, 17-dione
AM Brodie, JT Wu, DA Marsh, and HJ Brodie
Endocrinology, Jan 1979; 104: 118.

Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.

Behavioral action of estrogen in male hamsters: effect of the aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD).
E Steel and JB Hutchison
Horm Behav, Jun 1988; 22(2): 252-65.

Hormonal regulation of adult partner preference behavior in neonatally ATD-treated male rats.
J Bakker, T Brand, J van Ophemert, and AK Slob
Behav Neurosci, Jun 1993; 107(3): 480-7.

Lastly, I never said AI’s would suppress testosterone production. I merely expressed the idea that steroidal-based AI’s can have an inhibitory effect at a cellular level, therefore ATD would not be an optimal choice for hypogonanal man wishing to regain natural testosterone production, especially those whom already may have normal estrogen levels.

We could throw abstracts at each other all night long, but the bottom line remains. There is no sense in using an AI with potential fertility inhibitory problems if you can choose an AI that encourages fertility, such as the AI's weve included in Dermacrine.

Next please.

-Pp

needtogetaas · Feb 8, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
Ulter,

I assume your using teslac abstracts as an example because you agree that all steroidal based aromatase inhibitors share the same properties. Fair enough.

I also assume that you know estrogen is not the only hormone involved in the negative feedback loop?

Both studies you refer to are using men with an abnormaly high estrogen level. I have no doubt that reducing super-physiological estrogen to normal levels will increase testosterone every time, but this could be achieved with any AI.

Unfortunately we are probably not dealing with obese men who have abnormal levels of estrogen. I presume that most members of this board are in fairly good shape and are probably using some kind of AI during a cycle, and therefore begining PCT with a semi-normal estrogen level.

If this is the case, less estrogen does not always mean more testosterone, and when you bring estrogen down to sub-physiological levels you begin to have problems with leydig responsiveness as well as direct androgen receptor suppression coming from a molecule that …. well…. acts like an androgen.

Aromatase inhibitors prevent granulosa cell differentiation: an obligatory role for estrogens in luteinizing hormone receptor expression
M Knecht, AM Brodie, and KJ Catt
Endocrinology, Sep 1985; 117: 1156.

Effect of an inhibitor of aromatization, 1,4,6 androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD) on LH release and steroid binding in hypothalamus of adult female rats.
Exp Brain Res. 1986;64(3):407-10.
Slama A, Gogan F, Sarrieau A, Vial M, Rostene W, Kordon C.

Now, I know you have plenty of product testers and friends on this board who may say otherwise, but from the anecdotal reports Ive seen (including my own experiences), ATD kills sex drive, negatively influences cholesterol profiles and “dry’s” out your joints… all related to having sub-physiological estrogen levels from an overly powerful steroidal AI.

The studies with rats don’t show a positive result either. ATD hurts fertility and it even appears that it promotes homosexuality…..

Antifertility effects of an aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene- 3, 17-dione
AM Brodie, JT Wu, DA Marsh, and HJ Brodie
Endocrinology, Jan 1979; 104: 118.

Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.

Behavioral action of estrogen in male hamsters: effect of the aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD).
E Steel and JB Hutchison
Horm Behav, Jun 1988; 22(2): 252-65.

Hormonal regulation of adult partner preference behavior in neonatally ATD-treated male rats.
J Bakker, T Brand, J van Ophemert, and AK Slob
Behav Neurosci, Jun 1993; 107(3): 480-7.

Lastly, I never said AI’s would suppress testosterone production. I merely expressed the idea that steroidal-based AI’s can have an inhibitory effect at a cellular level, therefore ATD would not be an optimal choice for hypogonanal man wishing to regain natural testosterone production, especially those whom already may have normal estrogen levels.

We could throw abstracts at each other all night long, but the bottom line remains. There is no sense in using an AI with potential fertility inhibitory problems if you can choose an AI that encourages fertility, such as the AI's weve included in Dermacrine.

Next please.

-Pp

"The studies with rats don’t show a positive result either. ATD hurts fertility and it even appears that it promotes homosexuality….."

I think this was my favorite part.lol

Cauliflower Ear · Feb 8, 2007

Twoguns said:
yeah, I agree with ya on the clomid thing. I am in week three and I feel like a little bitch. I wanted to cry at the end of the movie Invincible and I have been watching George Michael videos on Youtube.

hey two guns and needto...if you run clomid and aifm with it to counter the estrogen will that stop some of the crazy moody sides?

needtogetaas · Feb 8, 2007

Cauliflower Ear said:
hey two guns and needto...if you run clomid and aifm with it to counter the estrogen will that stop some of the crazy moody sides?

why not not take ether and save myself some cash and some tears.

but really your saying i should take some clomid to bring back my test or combat sides from aas and then take aifm to combat the sides from clomid.not only dos that sound dumb but it sounds like some one is cashing in twice on my ass lol

macrophage69alpha · Feb 8, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
Now, I know you have plenty of product testers and friends on this board who may say otherwise, but from the anecdotal reports Ive seen (including my own experiences), ATD kills sex drive, negatively influences cholesterol profiles and “dry’s” out your joints… all related to having sub-physiological estrogen levels from an overly powerful steroidal AI.

these are normal side effects of too much estrogen suppression, brought on by use of any AI at high dosages. Just because you cant dose it properly does not make it inneffective or too suppressive. Oral ATD commonly causes these problems because of spiked plasma levels, with varying uptake between doses. they are also common side effects of letrozole. The same sides occur with aromasin and arimidex at varying doses.

Primordial Performance said:
The studies with rats don’t show a positive result either. ATD hurts fertility and it even appears that it promotes homosexuality…..

Antifertility effects of an aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene- 3, 17-dione
AM Brodie, JT Wu, DA Marsh, and HJ Brodie
Endocrinology, Jan 1979; 104: 118.

Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
ME Kaplan and MY McGinnis
Horm Behav, Mar 1989; 23(1): 10-26.

Behavioral action of estrogen in male hamsters: effect of the aromatase inhibitor, 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione (ATD).
E Steel and JB Hutchison
Horm Behav, Jun 1988; 22(2): 252-65.

Hormonal regulation of adult partner preference behavior in neonatally ATD-treated male rats.
J Bakker, T Brand, J van Ophemert, and AK Slob
Behav Neurosci, Jun 1993; 107(3): 480-7.

-Pp

LOL. you need to learn to actually read the studies before making wild ass claims. Of course AI's will affect female fertility, estrogen is highly involved in female fertility.
study #1 is on female rats and their ovulation
study #2 has been refuted, its hypothesis was incorrect
study #3 yes, at high doses, like all AI's, atd will suppress libido
study #4 yes if you estrogen deprive males during neonatal development, they develop "female" brains- odd but true, and at least in animals this leads to same sex preference. it is however COMPLETELY irrelevant and has no bearing on adult male use of AI's. this study would apply to all aromatase inhibitors

macrophage69alpha · Feb 8, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
We could throw abstracts at each other all night long, but the bottom line remains. There is no sense in using an AI with potential fertility inhibitory problems if you can choose an AI that encourages fertility, such as the AI's weve included in Dermacrine.

-Pp

throwing abstracts really should involve understanding them first. since you mention it why dont you provide the abstracts for the studies that show that chrysin "encourages" fertility. Or even a study that shows that its effective in vivo.

jmead · Feb 8, 2007

macrophage69alpha said:
throwing abstracts really should involve understanding them first. since you mention it why dont you provide the abstracts for the studies that show that chrysin "encourages" fertility. Or even a study that shows that its effective in vivo.

golf clap*.. if you didnt have so much karma id give you some.. lets hear some more from the new sponser.. OOO SPOT LIGHTS ON U NOW

Cutt29 · Feb 8, 2007

macrophage69alpha said:
these are normal side effects of too much estrogen suppression, brought on by use of any AI at high dosages. Just because you cant dose it properly does not make it inneffective or too suppressive. Oral ATD commonly causes these problems because of spiked plasma levels, with varying uptake between doses. they are also common side effects of letrozole. The same sides occur with aromasin and arimidex at varying doses.

LOL. you need to learn to actually read the studies before making wild ass claims. Of course AI's will affect female fertility, estrogen is highly involved in female fertility.
study #1 is on female rats and their ovulation
study #2 has been refuted, its hypothesis was incorrect
study #3 yes, at high doses, like all AI's, atd will suppress libido
study #4 yes if you estrogen deprive males during neonatal development, they develop "female" brains- odd but true, and at least in animals this leads to same sex preference. it is however COMPLETELY irrelevant and has no bearing on adult male use of AI's. this study would apply to all aromatase inhibitors

lol mac just did you, still waitin on your response to the HCG comment

al420 · Feb 8, 2007

I feel stupid every time Ulter and Macro bust out the studies...lol

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

macrophage69alpha said:
study #4 yes if you estrogen deprive males during neonatal development, they develop "female" brains- odd but true, and at least in animals this leads to same sex preference. it is however COMPLETELY irrelevant and has no bearing on adult male use of AI's. this study would apply to all aromatase inhibitors.

First of all, the homosexuality comment was a joke, taken surprisingly serious. I will edit my post if you feel this to be a unfair slanderous statement.

macrophage69alpha said:
throwing abstracts really should involve understanding them first. since you mention it why dont you provide the abstracts for the studies that show that chrysin "encourages" fertility. Or even a study that shows that its effective in vivo.

Here are just a couple studies of resveratrol, benzoflavone and chrysin effectively increasing fertility.

53. trans-Resveratrol, a Natural Antioxidant from Grapes, Increases Sperm Output in Healthy Rats
M. Emília Juan, Eulalia González-Pons, Thais Munuera, Joan Ballester, Joan E. Rodríguez-Gil, and Joana M. Planas
J. Nutr., Apr 2005; 135: 757 – 760

54. Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and A Sharma
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

In all honesty, we considered using a steroidal based aromatase inhibitor for months, but realized there was no way to avoid the inherent flaws associated with it.

IMO, ATD is too strong of an AI that will lead to a plethora of problems and eventually lead to suppression of the HTPA.

Speaking of spot light…

Have blood or saliva tests ever been ran on AIFM to test product efficacy?

What is the margin of error with the ATD dose?

-Pp

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

Cutt29 said:
PP care to adress this claim you made to me on OLM last week??

Well, we still do feel that way and intend to prove it with our soon to be active testers taking hormone analyses.

I explained my stance on HCG on OLM.

-Pp

Cutt29 · Feb 9, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
Well, we still do feel that way and intend to prove it with our soon to be active testers taking hormone analyses.

I explained my stance on HCG on OLM.

-Pp

no response was made on the thread i was referring to

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

Cutt29 said:
no response was made on the thread i was referring to

The thread is right here -
http://www.outlawmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34417

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

IMO, ATD is too strong of an AI that will lead to a plethora of problems and eventually lead to suppression of the HTPA.

Speaking of spot light…

Have blood or saliva tests ever been ran on AIFM to test product efficacy?

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

jmead said:
golf clap*.. if you didnt have so much karma id give you some.. lets hear some more from the new sponser.. OOO SPOT LIGHTS ON U NOW

stay out of this you trouble maker. :evil:

al420 · Feb 9, 2007

AIFM is by FAR the best legal supplement I have used. Not sure how it 'competes' w/ PP's product, but as for an AI is is the beast I have ever used, period.

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

al420 said:
AIFM is by FAR the best legal supplement I have used. Not sure how it 'competes' w/ PP's product, but as for an AI is is the beast I have ever used, period.

cool.I have never used it,and i dont know how this new product is going to work
but they shore are shelling out good money on showing that it dos.I am not shore aifm and this new product even need to be going head to head here.
it seems if you like taking nolva and clomid then you should take aifm to combat the sides from them.and if you just want to take detra then take it alone .
i dont know but that seems to be what is being said here.now as far as detra working alone that is yet to be proved but i think thats the clam and they are shelling out the cash to try and show it threw test.

mm107 · Feb 9, 2007

needtogetas said:
cool.I have never used it,and i dont know how this new product is going to work
but they shore are shelling out good money on showing that it dos.I am not shore aifm and this new product even need to be going head to head here.
it seems if you like taking nolva and clomid then you should take aifm to combat the sides from them.and if you just want to take detra then take it alone .
i dont know but that seems to be what is being said here.now as far as detra working alone that is yet to be proved but i think thats the clam and they are shelling out the cash to try and show it threw test.

very good point

AIFM and Dermacrine are apples/oranges

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

mm107 said:
very good point

AIFM and Dermacrine are apples/oranges

I have not had a orange in so long.

jmead · Feb 9, 2007

needtogetas said:
I have not had a orange in so long.

oranges give me cotton mouth.. i prefer apples...

nice post ulter, i kept scrolling down to try and get past all the damn thread links..

this is a very interesting argument. soooo.. bump

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

jmead said:
oranges give me cotton mouth.. i prefer apples...

nice post ulter, i kept scrolling down to try and get past all the damn thread links..

this is a very interesting argument. soooo.. bump

my kids go threw a few bags of apples a month.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

jmead said:
oranges give me cotton mouth.. i prefer apples...

nice post ulter, i kept scrolling down to try and get past all the damn thread links..

this is a very interesting argument. soooo.. bump

Normally I'd just post a couple but I was trying to make the point. It's ridiculous at this point for ANYONE (anthony) to make a claim that AIFM isn't a great product, or doesn't work. Next week they'll be trying to disprove gravity.

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
You're very late to the game. AIFM has been sold for over a year. None of what you claim are "a plethora of problems and eventually lead to suppression of the HTPA" have been reported in any of over a thousand men who have used it. In fact, 99% of those that use it found it to be the best estrogen solution they've ever used.
We GAVE AWAY 50 AIFM to testers on 3 boards. We collected all the data and user feedback. AND THEN we sold the product. We didn't start selling it and then ask people to report their results. Our test was far more extensive than what you are doing. And oh BTW all the results are on this and another board. As they came in they were posted.

Here are some of the testimonials about AIFM. All of your claims about this product are false. Most of the research you're posting to support your side is not even relevant. You seem like a very intelligent person. You just haven't spent enough time on this subject to have a clear view of facts. [/url]

Ulter,

For the record: We had several [private] testers perform blood and saliva testing during product development. This allowed us to tweak the formula before releasing it to the public. Analyzing anecdotal reports of “nipple sensitivity” is not what we call “data collection.”

Based on your reply, you have not performed blood or saliva tests on individuals. That is negligent at best.

I have no doubt AIFM is “strong shit” and I’m sure plenty of bros here stand behind it. I simply doubt that it is the ideal product to use for PCT.

I think what everyone wants to know here is – what works better for PCT, Dermacrine or AIFM?

If you have any pertinent argument here please post it. Otherwise, no more desperate counterfactual statements. M’kay?

-Pp

macrophage69alpha · Feb 9, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
Ulter,

For the record: We had several [private] testers perform blood and saliva testing during product development. This allowed us to tweak the formula before releasing it to the public. Analyzing anecdotal reports of “nipple sensitivity” is not what we call “data collection.”

Based on your reply, you have not performed blood or saliva tests on individuals. That is negligent at best.

AIFM was tested prior to above mentioned 50 member board release testing. All testers had blood work done, though all testers were also on cycle. Since the "test" of an AI is its performance on cycle. AI's are typically reccomended as an adjunct to SERM based PCT.

Primordial Performance said:
I have no doubt AIFM is “strong shit” and I’m sure plenty of bros here stand behind it. I simply doubt that it is the ideal product to use for PCT.

AIFM is potent, though its dosing is quite adjustable. AI's alone of any kind are not "ideal" for PCT. Though with your doubts, you have presented no evidence that any of the ingredients you champion increase Lh or LhRh or have SERM like activity. AIFM is generally not reccomended for PCT alone. Like most reccomendations, from the people who have actual knowledge of steroids and PCT, the use of SERMs is almost always indicated.

Primordial Performance said:
If you have any pertinent argument here please post it. Otherwise, no more desperate counterfactual statements. M’kay?

-Pp

you are the one that brought up libido, fertility, joint pain etc. Ulter merely posted user feedback countering those claims.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

I posted, as Macrophage did, evidence in the form of user data and clinical research showing your posts, theories, and understanding of these drugs on the endocrine system is sorely lacking. M'kay?
You have posted nothing to support your claims and what you did post was totally irrelevant. You're ignoring all the evidence and then laughingly calling me desperate. You're getting your ass kicked here.

Recap:
We don't recommend AIFM as a total solution for PCT. When I joined this thread I suggested your product is being sold for PCT and AIFM is mainly sold as an AI. You came on telling me that AI's will not increase test, LH, FSH for PCT making our product a poor choice. I posted the studies showing you're wrong. AI's are an excellent choice as a component of PCT. Have been for many years. Then you posted that people doing test cycles don't need to control estrogen. I won't even get back to that it's so silly.
We are all still waiting for your clinical research showing your ingredients are the best solution, or even any hint of a solution, to someone's PCT needs.

M'kay

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

macrophage69alpha said:
AIFM is potent, though its dosing is quite adjustable. AI's alone of any kind are not "ideal" for PCT. Though with your doubts, you have presented no evidence that any of the ingredients you champion increase Lh or LhRh or have SERM like activity. AIFM is generally not reccomended for PCT alone. Like most reccomendations, from the people who have actual knowledge of steroids and PCT, the use of SERMs is almost always indicated..

I guess we are back to square one then.

Ive explained my view on SERMs here >

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531614

I certainly hope Dermacrine does not posses any of the SERM characterizes …yikes.

BTW, I suggest you take a moment to visit our well referenced website. You will see there are multiple mechanisms in which Dermacrine can increase LH & FSH as well as enhance activity of the steroidogenic enzymes.

www.dermacrine.com

-Pp

njmuscleguy · Feb 9, 2007

AIFM makes you GAY??? Is THAT why I've been looking at all these Brad Pitt pics lately??? :rainbow:

All kidding aside, why are these two products (and their makers) clashing like this? AIFM is an AI and Dermacrine is a "testosterone booster", essentially two different products. Or am I misunderstanding here?

D_Mac · Feb 9, 2007

I love forum fights, better than reality TV IMO.

Sounds to me like AIFM has a very strong AI mechanism ideal for during cycle use, where Derma has a more mild mechanism better for stand alone PCT or as a stand alone supplement separate from riod cycles. Maybe you could cycle derma and roids back to back over and over. Hell you could take AIFM and Roids for 4 weeks then Derma for 4 weeks and repeat...............
............................................................................................................................................................................................FOREVER!!!

D_Mac

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
I posted, as Macrophage did, evidence in the form of user data and clinical research showing your posts, theories, and understanding of these drugs on the endocrine system is sorely lacking. M'kay?
You have posted nothing to support your claims and what you did post was totally irrelevant. You're ignoring all the evidence and then laughingly calling me desperate. You're getting your ass kicked here.

Recap:
We don't recommend AIFM as a total solution for PCT. When I joined this thread I suggested your product is being sold for PCT and AIFM is mainly sold as an AI. You came on telling me that AI's will not increase test, LH, FSH for PCT making our product a poor choice. I posted the studies showing you're wrong. AI's are an excellent choice as a component of PCT. Have been for many years. Then you posted that people doing test cycles don't need to control estrogen. I won't even get back to that it's so silly.
We are all still waiting for your clinical research showing your ingredients are the best solution, or even any hint of a solution, to someone's PCT needs.

Ulter,

Your twisting of my views and juvenile tactics truly shows your desperation to discredit our product. God forbid you jump on our thread when we release our topical fat burner.

I never said “AI’s” would decrease test, ect, ect. I simply explained the differences in the action of the “AI's” and that unless your estrogens are through the roof, Dermacrine contains the superior AI’s for PCT.

Let me ask-

Whos product do you believe better for PCT?

-Pp

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
Normally I'd just post a couple but I was trying to make the point. It's ridiculous at this point for ANYONE (anthony) to make a claim that AIFM isn't a great product, or doesn't work. Next week they'll be trying to disprove gravity.

so
Primordial Performance= anthony

or has anthony made post of his own that I have missed.

Big Rick Rock · Feb 9, 2007

This is a good debate by knowledgeable people. I like the science and arguments being put forth. Very informative and a great way to add content to the forum.

I'm a bit disappointed at some of the insults though. There is no need for any of that. It takes away from the thread.

-BRR

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Big Rick Rock said:
This is a good debate by knowledgeable people. I like the science and arguments being put forth. Very informative and a great way to add content to the forum.

I'm a bit disappointed at some of the insults though. There is no need for any of that. It takes away from the thread.

-BRR

good post.I like it to.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

I never said “AI’s” would decrease test, ect, ect.

Posted by Primordial Performance:
Since ATD resembles testosterone’s structure, it competes for the aromatase enzyme, only it cannot be converted to estrogen like testosterone can. However, all steroidal based inhibitors tend to mimic the action of there parent compound, which means they can inhibit steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus and testis by directly interacting with the androgen receptor (AR) and lowering LH & FSH release.

Your twisting of my views and juvenile tactics truly shows your desperation to discredit our product

Your juvenile tactics of denying what you've posted shows your desperation in the face of hard evidence.

Bro I don't care if make every product in our store and try to sell it. When we introduced Glucorell there were 50+ competitors within a year. There are 3 left. Knock yourself out. You're already in way over your head making a product that has so many flaws we aren't even going to list them all. We'll just let the marketplace decide.

Do you know I was one of the original authors of modern day PCT 5 years ago? Do you know I've been doing this for over 20 years?
As far as which product is better for PCT...

Neither product is any more than a component of PCT. There may be some value to your product. We examined the clinical research on your ingredients in 2003 and found it lacking. This is why we asked you to post it. There simply isn't any and we know that already. But just because no one has laid out the cash for clinical research doesn't mean a product is no good or doesn't do what it says. So until I see a couple hundred men posting it's the end all to PCT, I'll reserve judgment.

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
Posted by Primordial Performance:
Since ATD resembles testosterone’s structure, it competes for the aromatase enzyme, only it cannot be converted to estrogen like testosterone can. However, all steroidal based inhibitors tend to mimic the action of there parent compound, which means they can inhibit steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus and testis by directly interacting with the androgen receptor (AR) and lowering LH & FSH release.

Yes, I still believe steroidal based inhibitors can eventually limit pituitary release of LH & FSH, and eventually down-regulate the estrogen receptors needed for healthy HTPA function. You don’t see a negative effect like this with the AI’s we’ve chosen for dermacrine, which have been shown to enhance fertility across the whole endocrine axis. (references provided earlier)

Ulter said:
You're already in way over your head making a product that has so many flaws we aren't even going to list them all. We'll just let the marketplace decide.

Dermacrine has so many flaws? Please enlighten us.

Ulter said:
Neither product is any more than a component of PCT. There may be some value to your product. We examined the clinical research on your ingredients in 2003 and found it lacking. This is why we asked you to post it. There simply isn't any and we know that already. But just because no one has laid out the cash for clinical research doesn't mean a product is no good or doesn't do what it says. So until I see a couple hundred men posting it's the end all to PCT, I'll reserve judgment.

Fair enough, keep your eye on the Dermacrine threads.

-Pp

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

Dermacrine has so many flaws? Please enlighten us.

That's not for me to do.

Ramcononer · Feb 9, 2007

" ATD hurts fertility and it even appears that it promotes homosexuality….."

Did anyone else laugh when they read this?

Ramcononer · Feb 9, 2007

al420 said:
I feel stupid every time Ulter and Macro bust out the studies...lol

Me too

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Ramcononer said:
" ATD hurts fertility and it even appears that it promotes homosexuality….."

Did anyone else laugh when they read this?

ya a spit water all over my screen when i saw that.it was more of a joke and thats how i took it.makes some sense though.most act like girls when taking it.lol

wags8 · Feb 9, 2007

It's human nature to be wary of new things. The nature of this business makes us paranoid of scams. Duh roid store. If a new product arrives and the top dog starts insulting the heart and soul of EF ( Ulter and Mac ), who spend hours and hours answering the same questions over and over, giving great advice, not just pushing their products. I seriously have to question the judgement of the top dog. Show them respect and I guarantee you'll get it in return, continue to show disrespect and I guarantee very few customers will surface. Free PR advice.

dline · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
Posted by Primordial Performance:
Since ATD resembles testosterone’s structure, it competes for the aromatase enzyme, only it cannot be converted to estrogen like testosterone can. However, all steroidal based inhibitors tend to mimic the action of there parent compound, which means they can inhibit steroidogenesis from the hypothalamus and testis by directly interacting with the androgen receptor (AR) and lowering LH & FSH release.

Your juvenile tactics of denying what you've posted shows your desperation in the face of hard evidence.

Bro I don't care if make every product in our store and try to sell it. When we introduced Glucorell there were 50+ competitors within a year. There are 3 left. Knock yourself out. You're already in way over your head making a product that has so many flaws we aren't even going to list them all. We'll just let the marketplace decide.

Do you know I was one of the original authors of modern day PCT 5 years ago? Do you know I've been doing this for over 20 years?
As far as which product is better for PCT...

Neither product is any more than a component of PCT. There may be some value to your product. We examined the clinical research on your ingredients in 2003 and found it lacking. This is why we asked you to post it. There simply isn't any and we know that already. But just because no one has laid out the cash for clinical research doesn't mean a product is no good or doesn't do what it says. So until I see a couple hundred men posting it's the end all to PCT, I'll reserve judgment.

Ulter just said "Call me father, son"....

LMAO!!! :FRlol:

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

wags8 said:
It's human nature to be wary of new things. The nature of this business makes us paranoid of scams. Duh roid store. If a new product arrives and the top dog starts insulting the heart and soul of EF ( Ulter and Mac ), who spend hours and hours answering the same questions over and over, giving great advice, not just pushing their products. I seriously have to question the judgement of the top dog. Show them respect and I guarantee you'll get it in return, continue to show disrespect and I guarantee very few customers will surface. Free PR advice.

i here about mac and ulter answering ?? and all bro but come on do a search 40% of there answers end in "use this that we sell or that that we sell"
so yes they help out a lot but saying they are not pushing a product come one thats clearly not that true.

now dont get me wrong ulter and mac are great guys with a lot of know how but lets not try to pin a "just trying to promote his product" tag on this new guy when he is just doing the same thing ulter and mac do.any one can see the guy knows some shit and any one can see so dont ulter and mac.of corse
the advice ether one of the 3 of them are going to involve there products.

lets not forget who started attacking who first around here.

primordialperformance
came here and mad some clams there product can do certain things like raise test or be used for pct and things like that and its pretty clear some one dont like that.

there are people testing the new product out so really lets just see if it works.lets see if it can do what they say it can do.if it cant ill be the first to say its crap and the guy promoting it dont know his ass from his elbow
but for now it seems promising to say the lest.

lets not take this to far last time we had talks like this people started disappearing and I for one would like to stick around.

I think we should just wait till the test come back.see what people that have taken this new product have to say about it and stop attacking each other.
keep it clean jelly bean lol

this ant a popularity contest.

wags8 · Feb 9, 2007

OK man. I'll let the big dogs fight it out. I still love you for giving me the free plat a while back when I thought you were gonna bomb me.

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

wags8 said:
OK man. I'll let the big dogs fight it out. I still love you for giving me the free plat a while back when I thought you were gonna bomb me.

i try not to bomb or red so much any more.i like to spread the love now.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

needsto, if you think all I do is answer questions about our products all day here you don't read much. 95% of my answers are about our products? Get off the glue Bro.

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
needsto, if you think all I do is answer questions about our products all day here you don't read much. 95% of my answers are about our products? Get off the glue Bro.

now i know i am the last person that should be saying this but

bro ya spelled my name wrong.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

Do a search of your own. 171 out of my last 500 posts mentioned a product.

Big Rick Rock · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
Do a search of your own. 171 out of my last 500 posts mentioned a product.

I see your signature in all of them.

-BRR

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

Actually The signature wasn't in any of them until George had someone put it there. I've edited it, but it was George who put it there in first place.

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
Do a search of your own. 171 out of my last 500 posts mentioned a product.

ok then ill edit my post to make it say 40% then sorry bro.

Big Rick Rock · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
Actually The signature wasn't in any of them until George had someone put it there. I've edited it, but it was George who put it there in first place.

GS knows how to market effectively.

-BRR

Vascular Freak · Feb 9, 2007

PP the producer of dermacrine is sending me a sample to test for my PCT. I will be sure to give honest feedback on the product when I receive and try it. I don't see what all the fuss is about. People will still use AIFM for an AI, and may add dermacrine to there PCT regime. The ingredients are proven to work in many other studies. It seems like a big conflict of interest problem of having two similar products for sale on the same board....but it shouldn't. Theres plenty of love and wealth to be spread to each of our sponsors.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying it wasn't my idea and I would have never done it because I felt it was too commercial. But that was back before signatures became whole chapters of people's lives. Now my signature isn't even considered oversized, especially compared to what the women put on theirs. But regardless, my time is spent helping board members much more than it is talking about our products. And most of the time our products ARE helping the members.

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying it wasn't my idea and I would have never done it because I felt it was too commercial. But that was back before signatures became whole chapters of people's lives. Now my signature isn't even considered oversized, especially compared to what the women put on theirs. But regardless, my time is spent helping board members much more than it is talking about our products. And most of the time our products ARE helping the members.

lol I remember when I think it was superqt had one so long it took up almost 2 page's of all glittering crap.lol they do have some long ones around here.

Ulter · Feb 9, 2007

I rarely see them because I use my PDA/phone to post a lot so I have signatures turned off so the pages load faster. But I turned them on the other day and was like, holy shit, these signatures are bigger than these people's myspace pages.

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Vascular Freak said:
PP the producer of dermacrine is sending me a sample to test for my PCT. I will be sure to give honest feedback on the product when I receive and try it. I don't see what all the fuss is about. People will still use AIFM for an AI, and may add dermacrine to there PCT regime. The ingredients are proven to work in many other studies. It seems like a big conflict of interest problem of having two similar products for sale on the same board....but it shouldn't. Theres plenty of love and wealth to be spread to each of our sponsors.

good shit i was wondering if there would be more testers.ya there both deferent and prob would work great together hand in hand.now lets get coop to make a pic of it.lol

needtogetaas · Feb 9, 2007

Ulter said:
I rarely see them because I use my PDA/phone to post a lot so I have signatures turned off so the pages load faster. But I turned them on the other day and was like, holy shit, these signatures are bigger than these people's myspace pages.

I think thats were they are getting all this glitter crap from.when myspace came out they started giving links to glitter pics and letters and stuff and people started using it here.I here ya on it taking up time when i go threw some of them log threads it takes me 5 mins to scroll threw one page.

Primordial Performance · Feb 9, 2007

Twoguns said:
Ok, I followed the link under MR X's signature to read about this Dermacrine stuff. One heck of an impressive website. So is this a version of AIFM or something. Does anyone have any unbiased opinions. Don't bash so the thread doesn't get shut down.

So, twoguns, did we answer your question?

-Pp

Big Rick Rock · Feb 9, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
So, twoguns, did we answer your question?

I don't know if he really had one. He just wanted to see a fight.

-BRR

gjohnson5 · Feb 10, 2007

You brought up the point that lower estrogen does not mean higher testosterone in the example that if one is taking a strong AI and not on 1 gram of test. Have you done any test to see if your product raises testosterone in measurable levels for those who are older and NOT on gear.

My main concern is lowered test due to aging (andropause) and raising testosterone without having to see an HRT doctor

gjohnson5 · Feb 10, 2007

Just out of curiousity , why are you promoting saliva tests???
I have seen 4 separate endocronogolists and all 4 of them have said that saliva tests for testosterone , estrogen and cortisol are totally worthless

Primordial Performance said:
Ulter,

For the record: We had several [private] testers perform blood and saliva testing during product development. This allowed us to tweak the formula before releasing it to the public. Analyzing anecdotal reports of “nipple sensitivity” is not what we call “data collection.”

Based on your reply, you have not performed blood or saliva tests on individuals. That is negligent at best.

I have no doubt AIFM is “strong shit” and I’m sure plenty of bros here stand behind it. I simply doubt that it is the ideal product to use for PCT.

I think what everyone wants to know here is – what works better for PCT, Dermacrine or AIFM?

If you have any pertinent argument here please post it. Otherwise, no more desperate counterfactual statements. M’kay?

-Pp

gjohnson5 · Feb 10, 2007

I may have to try it myself. I am not doing gear and since I work with the feds , doing gear would be totally stupid.

But I am concerned about lower test via aging and this product may be the best choice for a non gear user

Vascular Freak said:
PP the producer of dermacrine is sending me a sample to test for my PCT. I will be sure to give honest feedback on the product when I receive and try it. I don't see what all the fuss is about. People will still use AIFM for an AI, and may add dermacrine to there PCT regime. The ingredients are proven to work in many other studies. It seems like a big conflict of interest problem of having two similar products for sale on the same board....but it shouldn't. Theres plenty of love and wealth to be spread to each of our sponsors.

Primordial Performance · Feb 10, 2007

gjohnson5 said:
Just out of curiousity , why are you promoting saliva tests???
I have seen 4 separate endocronogolists and all 4 of them have said that saliva tests for testosterone , estrogen and cortisol are totally worthless

Hmm, interesting.

I have to say there is a conflict of interest there. Those endocrinologists would much rather take your blood, as Im about 99% sure they wouldn’t make a dime going through a 3rd party lab to have your saliva tested. If there is a legitimate reason for saliva testing being “totally worthless” I would like to hear about it.

I have no vested interest in the kits that I sell except a small profit.. and trust me I don’t make much on them. I simply provide them to give my customers an easy way to test product efficiency. In fact, the saliva kits serve well to provide reference when using any hormonal product.

gjohnson5 said:
You brought up the point that lower estrogen does not mean higher testosterone in the example that if one is taking a strong AI and not on 1 gram of test. Have you done any test to see if your product raises testosterone in measurable levels for those who are older and NOT on gear.

My main concern is lowered test due to aging (andropause) and raising testosterone without having to see an HRT doctor

The attachment is a saliva test we performed on a 44 yr old man who used Dermacrine and was not on AAS. He had about a 140% increase in free testosterone. He also had a very sharp rise in progesterone, from the excessive 3b HSD activity in the skin. We had to reduce pregnenolone in the formula to compensate for this. However, keeping a fair amount of progesterone in your system while having high testosterone levels will prevent excessive formation of DHT, helping to avoid prostate and hair loss issues. This tester used about 35 spray pumps everyday.

The tester noted increased energy, increased muscle "pump" during workouts, and slight increase in sex drive.

-Pp

al420 · Feb 10, 2007

Ulter said:
these signatures are bigger than these people's myspace pages.

This isn't myspace?

needtogetaas · Feb 10, 2007

Primordial Performance said:
Hmm, interesting.

I have to say there is a conflict of interest there. Those endocrinologists would much rather take your blood, as Im about 99% sure they wouldn’t make a dime going through a 3rd party lab to have your saliva tested. If there is a legitimate reason for saliva testing being “totally worthless” I would like to hear about it.

I have no vested interest in the kits that I sell except a small profit.. and trust me I don’t make much on them. I simply provide them to give my customers an easy way to test product efficiency. In fact, the saliva kits serve well to provide reference when using any hormonal product.

The attachment is a saliva test we performed on a 44 yr old man who used Dermacrine and was not on AAS. He had about a 140% increase in free testosterone. He also had a very sharp rise in progesterone, from the excessive 3b HSD activity in the skin. We had to reduce pregnenolone in the formula to compensate for this. However, keeping a fair amount of progesterone in your system while having high testosterone levels will prevent excessive formation of DHT, helping to avoid prostate and hair loss issues. This tester used about 35 spray pumps everyday.

The tester noted increased energy, increased muscle "pump" during workouts, and slight increase in sex drive.

-Pp

good shit.

the banner in your sig is just a link

gjohnson5 · Feb 10, 2007

To be honst most of them the endo's I've been to did not do thier own testing , but they went through quest diagnostics or sent thier samples to a lab that was integrated in the hospital they worked for. The quest diagnostic cortisol test for instance is not a blood test but a 24 hour urine test in a jug with a boric acid tablet in it....

Primordial Performance said:
Hmm, interesting.

I have to say there is a conflict of interest there. Those endocrinologists would much rather take your blood, as Im about 99% sure they wouldn’t make a dime going through a 3rd party lab to have your saliva tested. If there is a legitimate reason for saliva testing being “totally worthless” I would like to hear about it.

I have no vested interest in the kits that I sell except a small profit.. and trust me I don’t make much on them. I simply provide them to give my customers an easy way to test product efficiency. In fact, the saliva kits serve well to provide reference when using any hormonal product.

The attachment is a saliva test we performed on a 44 yr old man who used Dermacrine and was not on AAS. He had about a 140% increase in free testosterone. He also had a very sharp rise in progesterone, from the excessive 3b HSD activity in the skin. We had to reduce pregnenolone in the formula to compensate for this. However, keeping a fair amount of progesterone in your system while having high testosterone levels will prevent excessive formation of DHT, helping to avoid prostate and hair loss issues. This tester used about 35 spray pumps everyday.

The tester noted increased energy, increased muscle "pump" during workouts, and slight increase in sex drive.

-Pp

needtogetaas · Feb 11, 2007

gjohnson5 said:
To be honst most of them the endo's I've been to did not do thier own testing , but they went through quest diagnostics or sent thier samples to a lab that was integrated in the hospital they worked for. The quest diagnostic cortisol test for instance is not a blood test but a 24 hour urine test in a jug with a boric acid tablet in it....

one hand washes the other.

mm107 · Feb 12, 2007

needtogetas said:
one hand washes the other.

it always will be that way too

GymIntensity · Feb 12, 2007

Ulter said:
I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying it wasn't my idea and I would have never done it because I felt it was too commercial. But that was back before signatures became whole chapters of people's lives. Now my signature isn't even considered oversized, especially compared to what the women put on theirs. But regardless, my time is spent helping board members much more than it is talking about our products. And most of the time our products ARE helping the members.

Ulter, the fact is, that you help and influence many people on this board in substantial amounts. Your products, IMO, are top notch and HAVE helped me progress in my training. I use many of them. You should be proud to have your sig at the bottom. People always hate on the golden boy, modest and respectful or not. Just let it be bro. when i read posts with people (obviously in this thread) talking shit on someone that is successful, it pisses me off. especially right now since im starting week 3 of tren :chomp:

anyways bro keep it going, more people appreciate you than not, and thats all that matters .

needtogetaas · Feb 12, 2007

mm107 · Feb 12, 2007

One thing i do like about the Dermacrine is how quickly it dries and leaves behind nothing. While its drying you can kinda feel it, but once dry it does not get sticky. I also get this feeling of well being (kinda like im the fuckin man no body fuck with me type of feeling.) but this usually wears off throughout the day. So far i am very very pleased with it. My strength is still going up right now and so is my bodyweight, while keeping the notches on my belt stable lol

needtogetaas · Feb 12, 2007

mm107 said:
One thing i do like about the Dermacrine is how quickly it dries and leaves behind nothing. While its drying you can kinda feel it, but once dry it does not get sticky. I also get this feeling of well being (kinda like im the fuckin man no body fuck with me type of feeling.) but this usually wears off throughout the day. So far i am very very pleased with it. My strength is still going up right now and so is my bodyweight, while keeping the notches on my belt stable lol

ya i get the same feeling from it.

al420 · Feb 12, 2007

mm107 said:
I also get this feeling of well being (kinda like im the fuckin man no body fuck with me type of feeling.)

That is called "feeling Al420'ish". I love feeling that way.

abomb · Feb 12, 2007

GymIntensity said:
Ulter, the fact is, that you help and influence many people on this board in substantial amounts. Your products, IMO, are top notch and HAVE helped me progress in my training. I use many of them. You should be proud to have your sig at the bottom. People always hate on the golden boy, modest and respectful or not. Just let it be bro. when i read posts with people (obviously in this thread) talking shit on someone that is successful, it pisses me off. especially right now since im starting week 3 of tren anyways bro keep it going, more people appreciate you than not, and thats all that matters .

+1.

Ulter is top notch as well as his products. I have zero allfiation with Anafit, though their banner is in my signature. It's there because I am proud of the results that Sesapure, Glucorell, Oxycalm, Tyler, T-Rex, PureCee, Red Blast & AIFM have given me. Awesome products without the advertising mark ups. As for as Dermacrine......let's see how it goes from poster/user experiences. Until then my PCT protocol will stay the same..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

mm107 · Feb 13, 2007

a bomb said:
+1.

Ulter is top notch as well as his products. I have zero allfiation with Anafit, though their banner is in my signature. It's there because I am proud of the results that Sesapure, Glucorell, Oxycalm, Tyler, T-Rex, PureCee, Red Blast & AIFM have given me. Awesome products without the advertising mark ups. As for as Dermacrine......let's see how it goes from poster/user experiences. Until then my PCT protocol will stay the same..."If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

great post bro.

we all most likely have the same feelings for ulter,mac,mike, etc

there are a ton of smart people on here. great thread with a ton of info. I wish all arguments were done like this.....all proof behind their theories.

needtogetaas · Feb 22, 2007

mm107 said:
great post bro.

we all most likely have the same feelings for ulter,mac,mike, etc

there are a ton of smart people on here. great thread with a ton of info. I wish all arguments were done like this.....all proof behind their theories.

ya this was a good thread.

needtogetaas · Feb 27, 2007

this thread was fun.lol

mobro · Mar 3, 2007

needtogetas said:
i here about mac and ulter answering ?? and all bro but come on do a search 40% of there answers end in "use this that we sell or that that we sell"
so yes they help out a lot but saying they are not pushing a product come one thats clearly not that true.

now dont get me wrong ulter and mac are great guys with a lot of know how but lets not try to pin a "just trying to promote his product" tag on this new guy when he is just doing the same thing ulter and mac do.any one can see the guy knows some shit and any one can see so dont ulter and mac.of corse
the advice ether one of the 3 of them are going to involve there products.

lets not forget who started attacking who first around here.

primordialperformance
came here and mad some clams there product can do certain things like raise test or be used for pct and things like that and its pretty clear some one dont like that.

there are people testing the new product out so really lets just see if it works.lets see if it can do what they say it can do.if it cant ill be the first to say its crap and the guy promoting it dont know his ass from his elbow
but for now it seems promising to say the lest.

lets not take this to far last time we had talks like this people started disappearing and I for one would like to stick around.

I think we should just wait till the test come back.see what people that have taken this new product have to say about it and stop attacking each other.
keep it clean jelly bean lol

this ant a popularity contest.

I have been reading this trying to decide what would be the best way to respond, no need now. I agree with you totally. You can't blame someone for promoting their product. Obviously AIFM has and still is proving itself. I have and still am using it. I even gave the rest of a bottle to a friend in need because I know it will help him with his issues. And you are fair in saying that PP deserves a chance to prove his product also. I don't think that AIFM will be challenged either way. It appears that the two could be valuable in their on way.
I really applaud the fact that this thread could have been taken down but was not. I think anybody that can keep up with this thread enjoys it. We are hearing from some of the most knowlegdable people in the business. Thanks guys.

needtogetaas · Mar 3, 2007

mobro said:
I have been reading this trying to decide what would be the best way to respond, no need now. I agree with you totally. You can't blame someone for promoting their product. Obviously AIFM has and still is proving itself. I have and still am using it. I even gave the rest of a bottle to a friend in need because I know it will help him with his issues. And you are fair in saying that PP deserves a chance to prove his product also. I don't think that AIFM will be challenged either way. It appears that the two could be valuable in their on way.
I really applaud the fact that this thread could have been taken down but was not. I think anybody that can keep up with this thread enjoys it. We are hearing from some of the most knowlegdable people in the business. Thanks guys.

thank you.

pitbullrocco · Mar 3, 2007

needtogetas said:
ok then ill edit my post to make it say 40% then sorry bro.

its actually 34%. and i thought just your grammar was bad......

haha j/k bro!

needtogetaas · Mar 3, 2007

pitbullrocco said:
its actually 34%. and i thought just your grammar was bad......

haha j/k bro!

come on bro you always round up.way up when you can.

Dermacrine !??

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