Taking steroids before you reach your genetic limit

immortalis said:

jesus fuckin christ Cy...

nice post.

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cyrex said:

I've been thinking about this for a while now. Why would someone want to wait until they reach their genetic limit to take steroids. Let's face it, we have a limited amount of time on this earth and the sooner we can get big and strong the more BB competitions, strongment competitions, powerlifting competitions, hot chicks to fuck, etc there will be.

Let's take a deeper look into what steroids do.
Steroids influence muscle growth. They are a catalyst for protein synthesis. If you train hard and eat just as hard, you will grow muscle at a much accelerated rate compared to not taking AAS. When a young man is 18 years old, he has a lot of extra testosterone running through his veins anyway so he is able to gain muscle at an accelerated rate compared to the rest of his life. Am I saying that he should take steroids to get bigger and stronger faster? Absolutely NOT.

Basic terminology:
LBM - Lean Body Mass
HGH - Human Growth Hormone
Steroids - Any questionable substances that serve as a catalyst of muscle growth (for the sake of simplicity, let us include things like HGH, Insulin, IGF-1, etc in this definition)
Adult - Anyone who's growth plates have fused and natural bone structure is no longer growing.
Let's make up some terminology here for the sake of discussion.
Base Velocity of Muscle Growth (BVMG):

This is the base amount of muscle growth that occurs naturally in the human body.

It may be calculated by the following formula:
BVMG = ([After LBM] - [Before LBM]) / ([Before] - [After])
Where:
After is a specific time when final measurements are taken
Before is a specific time when initial measurements are taken
​

Elapsed Time (ET):

This is any reasonable amount of time that measurements will be taken in. For the subject of this discussion, let's assume a 12 week period as this allows for the easiest measurements to produce accuracy. If we were to shorten this period to hours, we would need to take a biopsy of muscle tissue and study the protein synthesis occuring through a microscope. I'm not sure how many of us here want to measure our gains with a biopsy . . .​

Acceleration Due to Catalysts (ADC):

This is the 'boost' given by increasing natural factors for muscle growth. This does not 'necessarily' require steroids, but does require maximizing protein synthesis by any means possible. Rest, diet, hormone levels, HGH and other health levels will determine what is required to reach this.
For the following discussion we will assume that ADC requires maximizing to one's best ability ALL controlable factors.
The reason this assumption must be made is because the formula to obtain the actual ADC is the following:

ADC = ([TVMG] - [BVMG])/[ET]

This formula causes a problem when we look at the formula below for TVMG. It is cyclical. There are other, much more complicated formulas we could use, but they involve more confounds dealing with accurate measurements.
​

Terminal Velocity of Muscle Growth (TVMG):

This is the maximum amount of muscle and strength one can gain safely. This should take into account factors such as body weight increase and the extra load it puts on the heart in the period of time. There are issues such as tendon and ligament strength and how well the body is able to increase those factors along with the muscle growth. Obviously there is a maximum amount of food, training and rest that one can obtain, and lastly the body may have a physical limit to the amount of protein synthesis that can occur based on other internal factors.

TVMG can be calculated with the following formulas:
TVMG = [BVMG] + [ADC] * [ET]

A simple explanation to this is "The most muscle you can gain in a given time(TVMG) is determined by adding together your base natural muslce growth rate(BVMG) plus maximizing synthesis using catalysts(ADC) over the period of time in question(ET)"
​

Natural Terminal Velocity of Muscle Growth (NTVMG):

NTVMG is simply TVMG minus any use of steroids
NTVMG = [BVMG] + (([ADC] - Steroids) * [ET])
​

Back to the discussion.
Q. When is it logical to begin taking steroids?
A. When the pros outweight the cons
Yes this is the 'easy' answer, but how do we know when the pros outweigh the cons. First, there are legal and health issues. I will leave these OUT of this conversation and assume that legalities are not an issue and that you are a healthy male Adult. After these requirements are met, I would like to argue that the pros outweight the cons when (TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG). Translation: When taking steroids gives you faster gains compared to maximizing everything other than steroid use (diet, rest, training) as opposed to maximizing those things compared to what you would consider your BVMG.

Tossing out my terminology, simply when hardwork alone compared to your normal lifestyle gives less gains than steroids + hardwork compared to hardwork alone.

Again, let me reiterate this because I feel this is the most important point of my argument. Taking steroids is smartest when the use of them gives you more of an advantage than just training hard and eating right does. For example, if Brutus, an all star wrestler is gaining 1 lb of muscle per week by eating a great diet, training hard, and getting more than enough rest(NTVMG) and we assume that Brutus would only gain 1 lb of muscle per month or 0.23 lb of muscle per week if his diet was not on track(BVMG), but adding in his choice of steroid(s)(TVMG) he is able to gain 1.5 lb of muscle per week then using the formula I suggested ((TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG)) we get the statement:
1.5 - 1 > 1 - .23
or
.5 > .77
As any 5th grader will tell you, .5 is NOT greater than .77 so it would NOT be efficient for brutus to use steroids.

Of course not, Brutus is only 19 years old. He is done growing but those nuts of his are pumping out testosterone like crazy.

Let's look at Alfred's situation. He is a fitness model and wants to pack on some muscle. He eats right, rests well, and trains as hard as he can, but only packs on 0.125 lbs of muscle per week (NTVMG). This is nothing to be ashamed of as it is a good solid 5 lbs of muscle in a 20 week period. Alfred has a super high metabolism and when he isn't eating 4000+ calories a day, he gains absolutely no muscle at all or 0 lbs per week (BVMG). This explains why this 6'0" guy is only 170 lbs. Now let's assume that Alfred can gain a good 0.5 lb of muscle each week(TVMG) while using only 500mg of Test/week. Over the course of a 10 week cycle he can gain a full 10 lbs of LBM. Now let's look at our formula:
((TVMG - NTVMG) > (NTVMG - BVMG)) we get the statement:
0.5 - 0.125 > 0.125 - 0
or
0.375 > 0.125

Not only is 0.375 greater than 0.125, it is a full 3 times MORE. That means Alfred can gain 3 times more muscle in a given period using steroids compared to not using them. To me, that is a no brainer

Now looking at these two situations, we see that Brutus could gain something by using steroids, but not too much of an edge, only about 27% more than what he is already gaining. However Alfred can gain 300% more with the addition to steroids. This conflicts with much of the advice given on this forum when Alfred the 6' tall 170 lb guy comes in asking about what cycle he should do to put on some mass. You hear people say, "you can get to 215 lbs naturally no problem". Of course he can, but it will take over 90 weeks of training to reach that. Where with the addition of steroids, he could get there MUCH faster.

Now I would like to point out that the advice "you should wait until you get to weight X before starting a cycle" is almost always spot on, but NOT for the reason that they need to meet a 'genetic limit', but because these people typically are not bothering with their NTVMG. They aren't eating enough, training right, getting enough rest, or any combination of those. While, I still do not think that someone who wants results fast should wait until they do get to their NTVMG and reach that magic weight naturally, I only think that they need to get their diet, training, etc down and make it a habit before starting steroids. This may only be 2 months of training for the hardcore and fast learners. Some of the people out there don't learn too quick and it may take them 4 years, but I do not see the logic behind giving arbitrary numbers like the following:
Wait until you are over 25 years old and have 4 years of hard training and diet under your belt. That, in my opinion, is simply a waste of 4 years for someone who is dedicated and wants optimum results as soon as possible.


DISCUSS

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C3bodybuilding said:

The problem is the Alfred types usually do think they are eating enough and training properly. When you tell them a bowl of cereal, a shake and a subway sandwich a day isn't going to cut it, they tell you how they couldn't possibly eat anything more. Then when you tell them their cable crossover, hammer strength routine is shit, they either are polite and pretend to listen but go back to the cable routine. Or they just flat out argue with you and tell you what a great routine it is and how his friend's cousin's cousin friend is bigger than you and does that routine.

Not all are like that. There are a few out there who really want to learn and do things right. But those types who do the research and learn the proper way to train, eat and cycle are rarely the ones you see posting here asking if they can drink winny or how to get brad pitt's fight club body before spring break.

As for the 'Brutus' guy, that pretty much sums up the training board. Those guys know their stuff. They eat until they can't eat anymore, train their heart out on compound lifts and rest. Most are bigger and in better shape than here on the anabolic board. They know they could do a little more with steroids, but why bother when they gain so well without.

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karachi183 said:

If you don't wait until a certain age then having to starting HRT early on is almost a given in alot of cases. 2-4 Months of harcore training is a joke. What i get from your post basically is your trying to promote rationalization in using AAS early on and without training experience which IMO is dangerous to all the young bucks who know nothing about the game and jump into it way too early thinking a few months in is enough experience to delve.... If my assumption is wrong then i take it back!!!!!!

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cyrex said:

absolutely not..
I am saying that you need to get to the NTVMG
and for most people I think that would take a few years.
2-4 months maybe for someone who has had years of experience in the past, but come back from an injury or other situation.

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