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So, I got my testorone level test results back... and it is LOW!

djsf

djsf

New member
I am working eith Oasis Rejuvenation to see if I qualify for hormone replacement therapy. I am 40 years old and have done two cycles before and always practice full PCT (HCG, Clomid, Nolva, etc.) I finished my last cycle about 2 months ago and *thought* I was recovering. Until getting my bloodwork done.

Turns out my Free Testosterone is only 1.0 (normal is 6.8-21.5) and my Serum Testosterone is only 80 (normal is 241-827)! Wow, I have lest test than a 4-year old girl. How sad. So, I medically qualify for testosterone replacement therapy.

So, now I get to decide how to proceed. I plan to do cycles in the future (in fact I am starting one next week). I could...
1) Continue to do cycles, with HRT between cycles
2) Stop cycling, and go always-on with HRT
3) Do cycles of HRT with an attempt at recovery every several months

The question comes down to: are my natural hormone levels a write-off? Should I try to recover, or should I give up on that at this poind and just expect to do HRT for the rest of my life. Should I do HRT in order to feel better for several months, then try to recover my natural test production (and probably feel lousy for several months)? Or just feel good all the time by doing HRT ongoingly, and probably my natty test production would never fully recover.

Any experience or ideas shared will be appreciated with K.
 
do a serach under ulter's handle, he's on HRT and cycles.

do i still get some K ?
 
How long was your last cycle? Maybe you just haven't given it enough time? I would try to get my natural levels back up personally. It sounds great to be on hrt but really its just artificial test bro.
 
racoon_city said:
do a serach under ulter's handle, he's on HRT and cycles.

do i still get some K ?
Click to expand...
Sure, you got it. ;-)

Anyone who replies with anything even remotely useful will get K.

Ulter, I would love to hear from you.
 
Well I don't know that I can tell you anything that would or should influence your decision. This is really something you have to decide on your own. I made my decision to stay on the day I asked my doctor who was giving me my steroid scripts, "when do I have to come off" and he said, "why do you want to come off?" I didn't have an answer to that coming from Dr Scruggs. I'm very happy that I stayed on. I can't imagine going back.
 
djsf said:
I am 40 years old and have done two cycles before and always practice full PCT (HCG, Clomid, Nolva, etc.) I finished my last cycle about 2 months ago and *thought* I was recovering.
Click to expand...

What AAS did you use for your cycles? Length of the cycles etc.? Just curious if you used deca...
 
djsf said:
ow sad. So, I medically qualify for testosterone replacement therapy.

So, now I get to decide how to proceed. I plan to do cycles in the future (in fact I am starting one next week). I could...
1) Continue to do cycles, with HRT between cycles
2) Stop cycling, and go always-on with HRT
3) Do cycles of HRT with an attempt at recovery every several months
.
Click to expand...

Due to your age, recovery per-se will still yield fairly low testosterone levels. For example (you know him) SYL is running TRT year round, he was also doing full HRT adding GH before. When he came off he was not able to recover about low-moderate test levels because those were natural for his age. Thus, he made the dicision to stay on year round with TRT - with my help. I think you best best is to do year round TRT/HRT with some HCG dosing. Of course, I suggest you discuss this with your HRT doctor first, and see what he/she says.
 
I dont know much on the subject (as I am semi new). I would say to try and get your natural test levels back. 40 isnt that old. All men are dif at that age but from the older guys I know 40 is still good to get back natural test levels. My dad is like 54 and he only now is complaining about low T levels. Untill now he was fine.....A guy at work is 38 or 40 (cant remember) and he is also doing fine in T. Just my thoughts. Good luck.
 
justinjones1963 said:
What AAS did you use for your cycles? Length of the cycles etc.? Just curious if you used deca...
Click to expand...

I have done two cycles. My first cycle was a prohormone that acts like tren, and it shut me down hard (I possibly might not hever recovered from that). That was last summer. That cycle is outlined in this post:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=422010&highlight=trenobol

My second cycle was a short cycle of test suspension and strong deca. That cycle is outlined here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=438121&highlight=deca+suspension

So yes, I recently used Deca (and rather a lot of it), and 6 months ago I effectively used tren.
 
djsf said:
Sure, you got it. ;-)

Anyone who replies with anything even remotely useful will get K.

Ulter, I would love to hear from you.
Click to expand...

I'd vote for a low dosage, continuous HRT program for improved health and steady growth.

You might consider looking at some of the HRT postings in the Longevity area. I'm having great improvement with my low dosage program. My test and free test are way up, with esto and cholesterol down.

I'm a lot older than you, but it is the same approach.
 
Dude you need to try and get back your natural test imo. At 40 it may still be decent. I am 38 and mine is still ok. This is why people should get levels checked before the use aas so if there is a problem they have a baseline. (not a flame, most people don't). You need to do a hardcare pct and see what happens. It is worth a try. Having a script for test sounds cool at first but I think it would get old pretty quick. If you need it then ok, but I think you should try to recover now. If your natty test was 80 before you ever did aas I think for sure you would have known that somthing was off. Did you feel the way you feel now? Or are you feeling worse now? Don't give up yet, good luck!!
 
shoestring said:
Dude you need to try and get back your natural test imo. At 40 it may still be decent. I am 38 and mine is still ok. This is why people should get levels checked before the use aas so if there is a problem they have a baseline. (not a flame, most people don't). You need to do a hardcare pct and see what happens. It is worth a try. Having a script for test sounds cool at first but I think it would get old pretty quick. If you need it then ok, but I think you should try to recover now. If your natty test was 80 before you ever did aas I think for sure you would have known that somthing was off. Did you feel the way you feel now? Or are you feeling worse now? Don't give up yet, good luck!!
Click to expand...
That is a valid point of view. I was actually pretty muscular, like in the top 5-10% at my gym, before using steroids (people often asked me if I was using before I had ever tried them :-) so I am betting my test levels were reasonably high to start with. Amazingly, I am holding onto quite a lot of muscle with test level of 80, I'm surprised I haven't lost it all already.

Sounds like opinions are falling into two categories:
- Stay on. Why? Because you can! Recovery be damned!
and
- Try to recover your natural test levels. Why screw up your hormonal system for life at only 40 years old?

To answer your question, yes, I am feeling noticeably more lethargic, and I did lose a lot of my gains from the past cycle. Also my sex drive is at an all-time low. I'm also feeling suspiciously "mellow" and not my usual feisty self (though my mood is still good). All possible signs of low test.
 
Heads: you stay away from HRT, try to do more PCT (maybe run 250 iu of hcg EOD for 8 weeks?), and do another series of labs and see where you stand. If you're lucky, levels will bounce back to the low end of normal range. At the low end of the range, you might not be happy with your lifting, to say nothing of the rest of your life...and, most likely, those T levels are going to dip further as you move to age 45 or so. [My doc and I are guessing that mine crashed at age 42-43]. Oh, and if you cycle again, you'll probably compromise your natural levels further and faster.

Tails: you get on HRT now, spend a few months getting stabilized, and plan on DarkSyde4Lyfe. You're exogenously sourced, so cycling won't impact your supply of T. If your insurance covers you, you have your cycle bloodwork covered as well, and you have a doc to watch you for all the bad sides. You know the downside: every week you do an IM injection; maybe EOD a sub-q of hcg.

It's your coinage, bro. You flip. I called "tails" on mine, but I've always been an ass-man.
 
Excellent posts phatrr, lion, shoestring, crappie, mr.x and ulter! Thanks for all your ideas.

Here is my current thinking. Before going on permanent HRT (DarkSyde4Lyfe LOL!), I want to prove to myself that my test levels are really are chronically low. If they are, then I am ok with long-term HRT. But, if I can get my natural test back to somewhere in the middle of the normal range, then I will continue to cycle carefully and recover fully between cycles.

If my test does not recover, or recovers weakly, then I will consider my hormonal system a write-off and go on HRT.

So, I will postpone my upcoming cycle, which was scheduled to start next week, and instead embark on a hardcore, no holds barred PCT. In 2-3 months I will get my levels re-tested, and will go from there.
 
Islandkurry said:
Is HRT covered by insurance?
Click to expand...
I think generally not. HRT can be medically reasonable, but it is rarely if ever medically necessary. So I doubt insurance covers it.
 
Did you get a full hormonal panel back? i.e estradiol, prolactin, progesterone, SHBG etc. If they are significantly elevated that would indicate that you have not recovered from past cycles and therefore you should be able to get your natural test levels back up to a reasonable range.

If E2 is high - a 4 to 6 week course of Adex or Aromasin coupled with HCG (250 to 500 IU EOD) could be helpful in restoring natural levels. There's various options - working with a good endo who can spend time assisting you with this would be my advice. Also note from my experience Nolva / Clomid raises SHBG for me (I don't think everyone is as sensitive), this isn't helpful when trying to recover hence my suggestion of an AI.
 
djsf said:
I am working eith Oasis Rejuvenation to see if I qualify for hormone replacement therapy. I am 40 years old and have done two cycles before and always practice full PCT (HCG, Clomid, Nolva, etc.) I finished my last cycle about 2 months ago and *thought* I was recovering. Until getting my bloodwork done.

Turns out my Free Testosterone is only 1.0 (normal is 6.8-21.5) and my Serum Testosterone is only 80 (normal is 241-827)! Wow, I have lest test than a 4-year old girl. How sad. So, I medically qualify for testosterone replacement therapy.

So, now I get to decide how to proceed. I plan to do cycles in the future (in fact I am starting one next week). I could...
1) Continue to do cycles, with HRT between cycles
2) Stop cycling, and go always-on with HRT
3) Do cycles of HRT with an attempt at recovery every several months

The question comes down to: are my natural hormone levels a write-off? Should I try to recover, or should I give up on that at this poind and just expect to do HRT for the rest of my life. Should I do HRT in order to feel better for several months, then try to recover my natural test production (and probably feel lousy for several months)? Or just feel good all the time by doing HRT ongoingly, and probably my natty test production would never fully recover.

Any experience or ideas shared will be appreciated with K.
Click to expand...

I feel ya Bro. Ive been toying with this same decision for the last 2 years. All the while feeling like CRAP. Im running my LAST pct now just for my piece of mind, and if no recovery im gonna hit the HRT.Goodluck .
 
2 Months after my last shot of my 10 week deca cycle, my test came back @ 50ng/dl. 2 months later it was back ~ 500. If I were you I 'd hit a hardcore PCT and see what happens. Deca can be a real bitch to recover from. Before hand I'd ge a comprehensive blood test ie. Prolactin, Lh, FSH, Test, Bio-T (Free-T means shit), Total T, Estradiol, SHBG, TSH...


Read the thread below for an aggressive PCT plan...






http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184506&highlight=realgains
 
well mucle development is not soely based on test levels. It has plenty to do with genetics. If you have always been muscular you will be able to put on muscle more easily. You are fourty and if you don't plan on having anymore kids I see no reason you need to get you natural test levles back. Just go on HRT and do cycle how you want.
 
DJSF,
I', m in the exact same boat. ALthough my test levels did not come back as low as yours did I did have many of the symptoms related to low test levels. I am running a coarse of HRT (3 weeks now) and I feel soooo much better. I may try running a pct down the road & retest but for now I just wanted to improve my sleep cycles and not feel so damn lazy. Insurance can cover HRT. At your levels you have a ligit concern / condition so they should not have an issue with the treatment. Good luck and let us know how you make out. Especially when you try the pct. My last cycle was 3 yrs ago so I don't think I can blame that but its worth a try.
 
Including this thread, which contains excellent information Mr. Plack PM'ed me with.

Mr. Black:
Chances after running tren and deca in the past, your prolactin levels could be very high, which in turn can keep test levels suppressed. If they are indeed high, get on some dostinex ASAP. You can find it at www.buy-dostinex.com. I have used them nay times...

djsf:
Interesting... I have some Dostinex on hand, but I am not taking it now. I will try that.
I am curious as to the connection between high prolactin levels and suppressed testosterone. Can you explain that, or direct me som place that explains that?

Mr. Black:
Well I do know for a fact there is a direct corelation between a high prolactin and high SHBG. Whereby the higher the SHGB, the more it sucks up your TOtal T leaving your Bioavailable T substantially lower. However in your case your total t is already low. Your LH values would most likely indicate where exactly the issue is. If your LH is extremely high, as it should be for having low test, this means your pituitary is still functioning, but your balls are not (primary hypogonadism). If your Test is low and LH is low the your pituitary is fucked and you have secondary hypogonadism. A high prolactin in your case could simply be the cherry on top, I doubt it is the sole problem. Get the blood tests, then run a serious PCT as detailed in that thread I sent you. I would hold off the dostinex until testing. Its good to see were all your levels are at before you start fucking with them again. Feel free to contact me should you have any further questions or concerns.
 
One other thought: have you experienced any of the other side effects associated with prolonged low test levels that HRT addresses, like

near complete loss of libido
depression
anxiety
inability to concentrate
can't recover from workouts
feelings of exhaustion
change in attitude to negativity

If not, I'd wonder if you might be experiencing an acute Test crash probably related to the last cycle as opposed to something chronic.
 
phatrr said:
One other thought: have you experienced any of the other side effects associated with prolonged low test levels that HRT addresses, like

near complete loss of libido
depression
anxiety
inability to concentrate
can't recover from workouts
feelings of exhaustion
change in attitude to negativity

If not, I'd wonder if you might be experiencing an acute Test crash probably related to the last cycle as opposed to something chronic.
Click to expand...
YES: near complete loss of libido
NO: depression
YES: anxiety
YES: inability to concentrate
YES: can't recover from workouts
YES: feelings of exhaustion
NO: change in attitude to negativity

I am experiencing a lot of these symptoms. There is a good chance I never recovered from my previous cycle, though I'm not sure how because I did do full PCT (HCG, clomid, nolva). It's also possible my test levels were already declining and my cycle just did me in. I am going to see my regular doctor Friday to check and see if something else might be wrong.
 
I'd certainly watch those two "no" answers...in my case, it took more than one close friend to point out just how depressed and negative I had become over the last 9-12 months.

Looking back, I'm all like "Duh, no shit". The weirdest thing was that I started to get really negative about even thinking about sex. That should have been my biggest clue.

Good luck with all this. Big decisions, bro, but you're approaching them with a really good frame of mind and attitude.
 
phatrr said:
I'd certainly watch those two "no" answers...in my case, it took more than one close friend to point out just how depressed and negative I had become over the last 9-12 months.

Looking back, I'm all like "Duh, no shit". The weirdest thing was that I started to get really negative about even thinking about sex. That should have been my biggest clue.

Good luck with all this. Big decisions, bro, but you're approaching them with a really good frame of mind and attitude.
Click to expand...

I had "friends" my age tell me that we had to accept aging and loss of so many things ... age "gracefully" .... look like an old fat female mushroom and slowly slip into the grave ... give up bb ... give up sex ....

I almost believed it, especially when MD's agreed and started treating me like an old person who might die today.

DAMN!!

Now I look back and laugh.
 
Thanks all - you have given me a lot of great ideas and really good support. It's this aspect of the elitefitness community that moves and impresses me!

I am going to:
1) See my doctor and check for serious problems
2) Do a full-blown PCT and try to recover
3) Get my blood panel done again in 2-3 months and see if I recovered
4) Begin HRT if I do not recover to at least 450 test.

Thanks all!

P.S. I found another HRT site that seems to be very reasonably priced compared to the other one I was looking into. It's http://www.allthingsmale.com/. If anyone has any experience with them, please share that.
 
djsf said:
Thanks all - you have given me a lot of great ideas and really good support. It's this aspect of the elitefitness community that moves and impresses me!

I am going to:
1) See my doctor and check for serious problems
2) Do a full-blown PCT and try to recover
3) Get my blood panel done again in 2-3 months and see if I recovered
4) Begin HRT if I do not recover to at least 450 test.

Thanks all!

P.S. I found another HRT site that seems to be very reasonably priced compared to the other one I was looking into. It's http://www.allthingsmale.com/. If anyone has any experience with them, please share that.
Click to expand...

Whatcha wanna know? That's who I'm using. Nothing but good things to say about Dr. Crisler. He won't pull any punches - he knows quite a bit about cycling, and it might be worth paying him for a consult to review your PCT strategy. IMO, the sooner you can get more knowledge on your side, the better.

If you have any specific questions, post 'em up.
 
I went to see my regular doctor today. I have Kaiser, a popular HMO where I live. My doctor is very good and I like the way he handled my situation.

I told him I had been experiencing decreasing sex drive for the past year, that I researched it, thought it might be low test, went and got blood tests on my own and confirmed that to be the case. I showed him the test results, and he was shocked my test was that low.

He then asked me if I had done steroids and I 'fessed up. He asked how much and I told him the truth: two cycles, moderate doses, short in duration (6 weeks), plus some prohormone use last summer. He was not at all surprised, but thought test levels that low should only be seen with much longer/stronger steroid use. He felt my steroid use pattern shouldn't have caused a problem this severe.

So he referred me to an endocrinologist, who I will see next week. He thinks HRT will likely be needed, and Kaiser would provide that for me for free, covered by my insurance. Nice, huh?!

As an aside, my doctor asked me how I liked the steroids and what effects I saw. I told him how I saw rapid muscle development, how I felt great, had strong sex drive and felt totally up, positive and confident while on. He smiled and tole me he was thinking of trying steroids himself and I better not say any more because he was liking what he was hearing! ;-)

Anyway, it's good news my doctor is reasonably steroid-friendly and he is committed to helping me resolve my low testosterone problem. I will probably not need to use the HRT clinic.
 
keep that Doc DJSF!!! Def one of the more progressive I would say. You may be very happy with with what some HRT doses of test will do for you. In the past (being a minimalist) have done cycles of just 200mg PW of test E and gotten repectable results in regards to strength an body mass increases. Unfortunately on the HRT dose I am on now I will not see such a thing but good luck. Please keep us informed of your results next week.
 
I'm sorry, I can't remember what I was going to say b/c of Mr. Black's sig line, dammit.

Seriously, bro, that's great news that you have a reasonable doc.
 
phatrr said:
I'm sorry, I can't remember what I was going to say b/c of Mr. Black's sig line, dammit.

Seriously, bro, that's great news that you have a reasonable doc.
Click to expand...
Yah, Mr. Black has about the hottest avatar ever... makes it hard to read the content of his posts! :-p
 
I'd give yourself more time for natural test to recover before making the decision to go on HRT for life. But if you do decided that is what is right for you, there is nothing wrong with that if done responsibly and under doctor's supervision.
 
Lestat said:
I'd give yourself more time for natural test to recover before making the decision to go on HRT for life. But if you do decided that is what is right for you, there is nothing wrong with that if done responsibly and under doctor's supervision.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm going to give it a few months, and am doing another PCT to give it a boost now. If it can't recover to the middle range in 3 months, then I can be pretty sure my test would not improve much beyond that in the future. In that case, it's "better living through chemistry" and top-of-range test levels for me, by injection.
 
Also, I think I know what might have gone wrong. I think I had some bad or bogus HCG when I did the PCT after my last cycle. I am doing HCG now, from a different source, and boy, does it make my balls sore! I assume that is because they are growing. It is a good feeling, like something important is going on down there. When I did HCG in my PCT, I felt no such sensation. Might have been bad/expired HCG?! In ang event, this is a good sign of potential recovery starting.
 
djsf said:
Also, I think I know what might have gone wrong. I think I had some bad or bogus HCG when I did the PCT after my last cycle. I am doing HCG now, from a different source, and boy, does it make my balls sore! I assume that is because they are growing. It is a good feeling, like something important is going on down there. When I did HCG in my PCT, I felt no such sensation. Might have been bad/expired HCG?! In ang event, this is a good sign of potential recovery starting.
Click to expand...

Sounds good. If HCG is left out in direct sunlight or gets left out in the heat (in a car for example) for an extended period it ruins it - not sure if that makes any difference in your case, but I had a duff HCG set during the summer because of this.

What are you running with the HCG to keep E2 from getting too high?
 
djsf said:
Also, I think I know what might have gone wrong. I think I had some bad or bogus HCG when I did the PCT after my last cycle. I am doing HCG now, from a different source, and boy, does it make my balls sore! I assume that is because they are growing. It is a good feeling, like something important is going on down there. When I did HCG in my PCT, I felt no such sensation. Might have been bad/expired HCG?! In ang event, this is a good sign of potential recovery starting.
Click to expand...

I notice hcg's effects right away - immediate horniness, balls ache like you just have to bust a nut. Nut size always increases quickly for me with it. Did you read Doc Crisler's paper about hcg protocol while you were over on his site?

While it sucks that your last pct was botched b/c of it, it sounds like you found a good answer and are moving forward.

Thanks for keeping us posted, bro, and good luck.
 
bilter said:
was your last PCT just HCG??? And, what are you doing this time for PCT?
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My PCT was (and always is) HCG right at the end of the cycle (overlapping it), then starting about 10-14 days after the last shot (while long esters decay) I start nolva and clomid and run them for 4 weeks, gradually decreasing doses. I'm doing essentially the same thing again.
 
HRT = Hormone replacement therapy
TRT = Testosterone replacement therapy
Basically they are the same thing, TRT is more specific than HRT (HRT could use, say, deca, a stack, or some other steroid)
 
Been thinking of running 50mg DEca weekly with my HRT dose of test @ either 100mg or 250mg (undecided on how much to run) as a base. What do you guys think of the deca idea?
 
c gheller said:
Been thinking of running 50mg DEca weekly with my HRT dose of test @ either 100mg or 250mg (undecided on how much to run) as a base. What do you guys think of the deca idea?
Click to expand...
Why would you do that? What do you mean "as a base"? Are you trying to stay always-on or do you want to let your HPTA fully recover between cycles?
 
Sounds like an ok HRT dose for deca. Would you be running test with that? HRT users often like test because is boosts your libido. Deca alone would probably not have that effect. Would you run test and deca together as a base, or just deca?
 
I was thinking to run 250mg/week Test (which my HRT Doc prescribes me), and adding the 50-100mg/week Deca in myself. Would you think i could run that Deca dose long term with no sides (progesterone)?
 
I completed a second PCT to try to recover my natural test, and it was successful. I only want to use HRT if I need it - only after having made every effort to recover my natural test and still being low. I got my blood levels retested and I am now at 520, squarely in the middle of normal! An HRT clinc would still "help" me at that level, but it is no longer necessary now. So I decided not to do HRT at this time.

Looks like I have recovered from my cycle.

Strangely, even though my test and other hormone levels are normal, my sex drive is definitely a lot lower than it was several months ago. So it seems like something about my cycle has left a long lasting impact on my body. I would love to resolve that and get back my usual crazy horniness, but I'm not sure what to do next.
 
djsf said:
I completed a second PCT to try to recover my natural test, and it was successful. I only want to use HRT if I need it - only after having made every effort to recover my natural test and still being low. I got my blood levels retested and I am now at 520, squarely in the middle of normal! An HRT clinc would still "help" me at that level, but it is no longer necessary now. So I decided not to do HRT at this time.

Looks like I have recovered from my cycle.

Strangely, even though my test and other hormone levels are normal, my sex drive is definitely a lot lower than it was several months ago. So it seems like something about my cycle has left a long lasting impact on my body. I would love to resolve that and get back my usual crazy horniness, but I'm not sure what to do next.
Click to expand...

Yes you are recovered, but do you plan on cycling in the future? If so how do you know you are going to go through the same problem with recovery/
 
djsf said:
I completed a second PCT to try to recover my natural test, and it was successful. I only want to use HRT if I need it - only after having made every effort to recover my natural test and still being low. I got my blood levels retested and I am now at 520, squarely in the middle of normal! An HRT clinc would still "help" me at that level, but it is no longer necessary now. So I decided not to do HRT at this time.

Looks like I have recovered from my cycle.

Strangely, even though my test and other hormone levels are normal, my sex drive is definitely a lot lower than it was several months ago. So it seems like something about my cycle has left a long lasting impact on my body. I would love to resolve that and get back my usual crazy horniness, but I'm not sure what to do next.
Click to expand...


Although Total testosterone is good to know, it's not an accurate representation of your how much test is available for for body's use. Get your Bio-Available testosterone checked. Did you get your prolactin & estrogen checked as well? If those values were high, this could drive up your SHBG which in turn sucks up more Bio-T, leaving you with shit. Also alot of user's report that the Nolva/Clomid combo increases SHBG, which could be another explanation (assuming you do indeed have low Bio-T).
 
DJSF, how long after this round of PCT did you have your tests done? Just wondering if there are still some remaining affects. Not trying to be pessemistic here as you will remember I am in the same situation (although I started HRT) and may want to give this a try.
 
djsf said:
I completed a second PCT to try to recover my natural test, and it was successful. I only want to use HRT if I need it - only after having made every effort to recover my natural test and still being low. I got my blood levels retested and I am now at 520, squarely in the middle of normal! An HRT clinc would still "help" me at that level, but it is no longer necessary now. So I decided not to do HRT at this time.

Looks like I have recovered from my cycle.

Strangely, even though my test and other hormone levels are normal, my sex drive is definitely a lot lower than it was several months ago. So it seems like something about my cycle has left a long lasting impact on my body. I would love to resolve that and get back my usual crazy horniness, but I'm not sure what to do next.
Click to expand...

Wish I had a solid suggestion other than "give it a month". I'm glad to hear that you're making progress!
 
Mr. Black said:
Although Total testosterone is good to know, it's not an accurate representation of your how much test is available for for body's use. Get your Bio-Available testosterone checked. Did you get your prolactin & estrogen checked as well? If those values were high, this could drive up your SHBG which in turn sucks up more Bio-T, leaving you with shit. Also alot of user's report that the Nolva/Clomid combo increases SHBG, which could be another explanation (assuming you do indeed have low Bio-T).
Click to expand...

Bang on the money Mr. Black :). SHBG may be the issue. Elevated E2 raises SHBG.

Adex coupled with herbals like Tongkat Ali have helped me with this in the past.

More thorough blood testing will reveal all.
 
djsf said:
I have done two cycles. My first cycle was a prohormone that acts like tren, and it shut me down hard (I possibly might not hever recovered from that).

My second cycle was a short cycle of test suspension and strong deca.

So yes, I recently used Deca (and rather a lot of it), and 6 months ago I effectively used tren.
Click to expand...

It took me 3-4 months to bounce back from a heavy Deca cycle. It is not uncommon so be patient. You still have some time.
 
To answer everyone's questions:

I had the most recent test done about two weeks after my low reading of 80, but *before* starting my last PCT. It's quite surprising that I fully recovered in two weeks. Makes me wonder if one of the tests was incorrect. I will have one more follow-up test in a month to confirm.

My HMO won't do bio-available test. Can one of you recommend a mail-order lab that would measure that (also SHBG)? I am going back in one month for a final test (through my HMO) but I'd like to supplement that with my own bio-available test and SHBG measurements.

Yes I would like to cycle again in the future, so it will be most important to fully understand how my body recoveres from a cycle so I have some gauge for what to expect after future cycles. I believe I should be able to full recover between cycles if my cycles are reasonable and moderate.

My prolactin came in below the low end of the range. Interesting, and I'm not sure why it would be so low. Maybe because I had been using dostinex a few weeks before. So it seems prolactin would not be the problem.

Interesting posts aboug SHBG. I tried to get my HMO to measure that, but it's not a test that they do. The theory that nolva+clomid can increase this (thus reducing free test) is an intersting one. I will monitor my sex drive to see if it slowly recovers as my SHBG returns to normal (assuming it may not be normal). And finally, wet's comment that it may take 3-4 months to recover from deca is useful to know, and agrees with my general impressions of deca. I'll watch the next couple months to see what happens.

Very informative and intersting posts, all... thanks again for your help and all the useful info! I will give more K to you all again after I have spread some around first.
 
I'm 40, but not quire ready for HRT just yet. My natty test came out at 520 right after recovery. I have been taking 6-oxo, and my natty test is through the roof, and I put on 7 lbs. I am not far from my max weight after my last cycle, and am gaining fast on natural test! 6-oxo is the shit, highly recommended. I have one more blood test coming, I'll post here once I find out what it is. I think it will be really good, and I do not need HRT yet. I'me saving that card to be played later when needed. It is not needed just yet.
 
djsf said:
I have been taking 6-oxo, and my natty test is through the roof, and I put on 7 lbs. I am not far from my max weight after my last cycle, and am gaining fast on natural test! 6-oxo is the shit, highly recommended. I have one more blood test coming, I'll post here once I find out what it is.
Click to expand...

Will be very interested to see what test results come back! Your post suggests you now have high amounts of free test circulating! ;)

Congrats on the recovery!
 
djsf said:
I'm 40, but not quire ready for HRT just yet. My natty test came out at 520 right after recovery. I have been taking 6-oxo, and my natty test is through the roof, and I put on 7 lbs. I am not far from my max weight after my last cycle, and am gaining fast on natural test! 6-oxo is the shit, highly recommended. I have one more blood test coming, I'll post here once I find out what it is. I think it will be really good, and I do not need HRT yet. I'me saving that card to be played later when needed. It is not needed just yet.
Click to expand...


Hey dj, I'm in the same boat as you.... after my last deca & test enth cycle, which ended in December, I did a PCT of HCG & nolvadex for 6 weeks... 1 month later, I got my bloodwork and test levels were very low... so I'm about to start another PCT of HCG, Aromasin, and Nolvadex... I have clomid on hand but am reluctant to use it because of sides....

Be careful with 6-oxo... I've read in several places that estrogen levels can rebound like crazy after you finish taking it, leaving you in worse shape than before you started

I'd also recommend taking avena sativa... it's a natural way of lowering SHBG... couldn't hurt
 
njmuscleguy,
Interesting what you say about 6-oxo, that sounds very believable. Thanks for the tip on that. I might try gradually tapering to come off it.

I figured out why I crashed. I was using large doses and I started my PCT too early. In fact, my PCT was finished before the longest esters had left my ststem! Thus I was doing PCT will still suppressed by the cycle. The optimum time to do PCT, I believe, is one week before the longest esters have decreased to a level below where normal test levels would be (i.e. 1 week before you are about to be suppressed). Many people don't realize how long stuff stays in your system. Doing the PCT too early (i.e. while still suppressed the whole time) will not be effective.

Post more details on your cycle, including the doses you used and the date(s) of your last shot(s), and the date you started your PCT, and I'll figure out what happened with the PCT for your cycle.
 
njmuscleguy's cycle was something like:

Wks 1-10 test enth 750 mg/week
Wks 1-8 deca 600 mg/ week
Wk 11 (off)
Wks 12-14 HCG
Wk 12 liquidex
Wks 12-17 nolva

I went to this site and plugged your AAS parameters in: http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/index.php

Your cycle is modelled like this:

Drug: Testosterone Enanthate
(Initial) Dose: 375mg
Half-life: 7 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3.5 days
Cycle Length: 70 days
Start Day: 1
Tapered: No

Drug: Nandrolone Decanoate
(Initial) Dose: 300mg
Half-life: 9.5 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3.5 days
Cycle Length: 56 days
Start Day: 1
Tapered: No

njmusc-pctgraph.png


This is a chart of your androgens blood levels during and after the cycle, day by day. Notice how it took a couple of weeks for the long-acting esters to build up in your system. Maximum levels were reached around day 42, six weeks into your cycle! The purple line is deca, and you can see how it trails off early (because you stopped deca two weeks early), but trails off slower than test because it is longer acting than enant. The red line is enant. Where the line turns blue is the point where the steroids in your system have declined to a lever lower than your normal test levels would have been. But your test levels are suppressed from the cycle, so past the blue area is where you are andrigen-deficient. This is where you need to be doing PCT. In fact, I would do HCG before the blue line starts, and start the rest of your PCT about one week before the blue line (running an AI or anti-E with the HCG).

On the chart, the blue line starts at day 91, which is a full 23 days after your last shot of test, about 3.5 weeks after your last shot of test and about 5.5 weeks after your last shot of deca. That is the point in type where your steroids are no longer really affecting you.

I would concoude you ran your PCT 1-2 weeks too early. Because of the high doses you used, the majority of your PCT was done while high levels of androgens were still in your system. It is best to time PCT so most of it overlaps the time when androgens have already left your system. So in your case, I would do a second PCT if your T levels are still low.

By the way, this is exactly what happened to me. Long, heavy cycles of deca require a long wait, in the range of 3-6 weeks after the last shot depending on dose, before starting PCT. Otherwise the PCT wiull be too early and innefective.
 
Thanks guys. :-)

Modelling the cycle in order to determine when to begin PCT is the most important thing I have learned recently. This concept is not well-explained really anywhere in PCT instructions I have seen (I have read many) and the timing is usually left ambiguous and ill-defined. They usually say something like "wait a week or two or 10 days after your last shot". From my research, this often needs to be more like 3-5 weeks, especially with mega-doses! That is never really said anywhere.

I believe wrong PCT timing, usually too EARLY rather than too late, is the cause of many a bro's AAS woes. Hopefull this thinking will help others.
 
djsf - a million thanks to you (and some k too!) - I actually did that model last week but I wasn't sure how trust-worthy it was because of the same fact you stated... there are so many varrying opinions as to when to start and how much to do.... your reasoning makes sense though... it seems I started my PCT a week too early....

However, it contradicts what Anthony Roberts wrote in his PCT article:

"I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine). Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. "

----------------
Maybe Anthony can comment on this.

I guess the one question I have remaining is what's the apropriate dosages for HCG and Nolvadex.... is it 1500 iu HCG, 3 times a week? Is it 500 iu per day? Is it 500 iu every other day? And for Nolvadex, 20mg seems to be the magic number.... but there are those that recommend 40-60mg and then tapering down...and those that say anything more than 10-20mg is a waste!


Thanks again DJ!
 
recovery is not possible while exogenous hormones are still suppressing your system, although during the clearing phase, this is a good time to "prime the pump" with hcg, and also switch to purely short-acting gear like orals
 
>>recovery is not possible while exogenous hormones are still suppressing your system

I agree with that, and I think anthony roberts does too. Consider this. In this cycle, blood engrogen levels got to roughly 8x normal testosterone levels. One week after the last shot of test, they are still 3x. Two weeks after they are nearly 2x. Clearly one shouldn't wait TOO long, one needs to start PCT so most of it is overlapping the crash zone.

However, and this is the important part, some cycles can leave androgen levels elevated for 4-6 weeks after the last shot, and one might start AND FINISH their PCT before androgen levels get down to baseline, resulting in continued suppression after PCT has been completed! Clearly that is counterproductive. That happened to me, and I needed a second PCT. In my case, waiting clearly would have helped.

I suggest being especially cautious about this with high dose deca cycles (> 400mg/week). They are suppressive for a very long time after the last shot.
 
Hey djsf... I was just wondering where you're at with your second PCT... are you finished with it? Can you remind me again what it consisted of? How did you make out with it?

Thanks!
 
My unique problem is that I did 2 cycles of Deca and was told that HCG was the same as Clomid....as you can guess I was shut down VERY hard. Very low test level, as well as LH, and FSH.......

Been nearly 3 months since my last HCG shot....Started Tomaxophine Citrate over a month later (too late ?) and have been on it for about 7 weeks. Erections have gotten a little better, but NO SEX DRIVE and feel lethargic and moody.....Will my test return back to normal or does doing HCG w/ no Clomid or Nolva immedietly afterwards permanently shut you down ??


how long should I wait and does Nolvadex (Tomaxo ) further supress libido ?? Should I possibly run HCG or possibly even Test again ? Need advice since I have an endo appt. in a month and do NOT want to go on TRT or HRT. I'm 31 BTW.
 
djsf said:
>>recovery is not possible while exogenous hormones are still suppressing your system

I agree with that, and I think anthony roberts does too. Consider this. In this cycle, blood engrogen levels got to roughly 8x normal testosterone levels. One week after the last shot of test, they are still 3x. Two weeks after they are nearly 2x. Clearly one shouldn't wait TOO long, one needs to start PCT so most of it is overlapping the crash zone.

However, and this is the important part, some cycles can leave androgen levels elevated for 4-6 weeks after the last shot, and one might start AND FINISH their PCT before androgen levels get down to baseline, resulting in continued suppression after PCT has been completed! Clearly that is counterproductive. That happened to me, and I needed a second PCT. In my case, waiting clearly would have helped.

I suggest being especially cautious about this with high dose deca cycles (> 400mg/week). They are suppressive for a very long time after the last shot.
Click to expand...


Does EQ act as Deca in being it is suppressive for a long time?
 
njmuscleguy said:
Hey djsf... I was just wondering where you're at with your second PCT... are you finished with it? Can you remind me again what it consisted of? How did you make out with it?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I'm finished, and I feel like a whole new man! Got my sex drive back full force (I'm 41) and have been building muscle again in the gym, using my own natural test (put on about 6 lbs of quality gains in 6 weeks and am getting stronger). I am about to get my final blood tests done again which should confirm exactly how well things went, test-wise. I can feel that things are good, so I am looking to see high-ish natural test levels, maybe around 600-700 (I feel a lot better than when they were 500, as my recovery started).

Part of my recovery was eliminating supplements that affect my libido, since I have been using my libido as a measure of my test recovery. I discovered two supps I was taking that had reduced my libido (though they probably weren't affecting my test, just my libido). Those supps were Sesapure and Stimulant-X. I like them both, but I like my libido eve more, so I have discontinued them both. I may use Sesapure in the future while on cycle because I like its fat burning and liver protecting properties.

So all in all, it seems to have been a successful recovery. My second PCT looked like this:

Weeks 1-4: Nolva 20mg/day
Days 1-10: 1000iu HCG eod (5000iu total)
Day 1: 300mg clomid
Days 2-9: 100mg clomid
Weeks 1-6: 6-oxo, 2 capsules/day, tapering off to 1 cap/day for the last 2 weeks

I'll post my final test results in a couple weeks. From my good libido, gym gains, good mood (and new acne flare-ups), I suspect my levels are normal or better.
Days 10-19: 50mg clomid
 
MADBALL99 said:
My unique problem is that I did 2 cycles of Deca and was told that HCG was the same as Clomid....as you can guess I was shut down VERY hard. Very low test level, as well as LH, and FSH.......

Been nearly 3 months since my last HCG shot....Started Tomaxophine Citrate over a month later (too late ?) and have been on it for about 7 weeks. Erections have gotten a little better, but NO SEX DRIVE and feel lethargic and moody.....Will my test return back to normal or does doing HCG w/ no Clomid or Nolva immedietly afterwards permanently shut you down ??


how long should I wait and does Nolvadex (Tomaxo ) further supress libido ?? Should I possibly run HCG or possibly even Test again ? Need advice since I have an endo appt. in a month and do NOT want to go on TRT or HRT. I'm 31 BTW.
Click to expand...
madball, if you want to try something on your own, I would try the PCT I outlined in the above thread. It was very effective for me. Don;t worry about potentialsuppressive effects of some of the individual components of this PCT. It all works together and as a whole it permits the body to rapidly recover natural test production as the PCT finishes.
 
djsf said:
I am working eith Oasis Rejuvenation to see if I qualify for hormone replacement therapy. I am 40 years old and have done two cycles before and always practice full PCT (HCG, Clomid, Nolva, etc.) I finished my last cycle about 2 months ago and *thought* I was recovering. Until getting my bloodwork done.

Turns out my Free Testosterone is only 1.0 (normal is 6.8-21.5) and my Serum Testosterone is only 80 (normal is 241-827)! Wow, I have lest test than a 4-year old girl. How sad. So, I medically qualify for testosterone replacement therapy.

So, now I get to decide how to proceed. I plan to do cycles in the future (in fact I am starting one next week). I could...
1) Continue to do cycles, with HRT between cycles
2) Stop cycling, and go always-on with HRT
3) Do cycles of HRT with an attempt at recovery every several months

The question comes down to: are my natural hormone levels a write-off? Should I try to recover, or should I give up on that at this poind and just expect to do HRT for the rest of my life. Should I do HRT in order to feel better for several months, then try to recover my natural test production (and probably feel lousy for several months)? Or just feel good all the time by doing HRT ongoingly, and probably my natty test production would never fully recover.

Any experience or ideas shared will be appreciated with K.
Click to expand...
Sometimes it takes up to a year for your HPTA to come back in line. Don't jump to conclusions to fast. Figure,Long acting compounds could be in there for 3-4 weeks of your last 8 off. Let it heal maybe before you check again.

Quad
 
Quadsweep said:
Sometimes it takes up to a year for your HPTA to come back in line. Don't jump to conclusions to fast. Figure,Long acting compounds could be in there for 3-4 weeks of your last 8 off. Let it heal maybe before you check again.

Quad
Click to expand...
Please read the rest of the thread, that's the conclusion we came to. Sorry it took 80 posts to get there. ;-)
 
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