Here's my DF 5 x 5, modified

Recent training background:

Ran two 2 DF 5 x 5's: First run, ran it exactly as MC2 prescribed. Second run, subbed clean pull for BB row. Good results on both.

Did some conditioning stuff for 8 weeks, then ran Korte. Good results.

Now I want to start another 5 x 5 with this layout:

Monday (1 x 5 except squat 5 x 5)
Squat
Bench
BB row
Power Shrug

Wed (5 x 5)
Front Squat
Romanian DL
OHP
Pullup

Fri (5 x 5 except squat 1 x 5)
Squat
Bench
BB row
Power Shrug
BB curl, skullcrusher (3 x 8-10)
Dips (3 x 5-8)

Then deload and intensity as per usual. I'll also add the weighted hypers, situps and maybe calves somewhere. Was going to try some powercleans but my form is awful.

I'm taking a break from deadlifting after my biffed 500 attempt, so I subbed in the RDL's, which I used to do a lot of. Should I do clean pull low instead of powershrug to keep some pulling off the floor? Also, I haven't done any arm stuff in awhile, so I hope this Friday stuff isn't too much. Thoughts or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Out of curiosity, what were your results in terms of strength and mass gain from the 5x5 cycles, and then Korte?

Also, what weights did you push in the first week of your first 5x5 on squat, row and bench, and what are you pushing your first week this time? Sorry, just trying to get a picture for the overall progress so far.

I rather like your layout. I'd do the pullups supinated/underhand, same for rows, but that's just me. Gives the biceps a better line of pull, more ROM (keep elbows at sides), and allows more weight to be used, thus loading the musculature more, and adding to more growth in the long run.

Front squats kick ass.

Try to video tape yourself doing power cleans. Maybe we can give you some pointers on 'em. I loved them, once I got the hang of 'em.

Anthrax Invasion said:

Out of curiosity, what were your results in terms of strength and mass gain from the 5x5 cycles, and then Korte?

Also, what weights did you push in the first week of your first 5x5 on squat, row and bench, and what are you pushing your first week this time? Sorry, just trying to get a picture for the overall progress so far.

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I put on about 25lbs after my 5 x 5's, pretty much stayed here at 202 now.

As far as strength, IIRC my post 5 x 5 numbers were:

Squat: 350 parallel (bad wheel)
Bench: 280
Dead: 461 calculated (from 435 x 3)

I tried my post Korte maxes this week: missed 500 dead, barely missed 295 bench and got 335 full squat. So I figure 20+ lbs on dead, 10-14lbs on bench.

Anthrax Invasion said:

I rather like your layout. I'd do the pullups supinated/underhand, same for rows, but that's just me. Gives the biceps a better line of pull, more ROM (keep elbows at sides), and allows more weight to be used, thus loading the musculature more, and adding to more growth in the long run.

Front squats kick ass.

Try to video tape yourself doing power cleans. Maybe we can give you some pointers on 'em. I loved them, once I got the hang of 'em.

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Yeah I tried not to mess with the basic template too much, just adding the powershrugs because I like them. I've heard MC2 say to sub them in for rows, but I figure after Korte I can do the extra work

Just to be clear, are you saying to do chinups or pullups with supinated grip?

I did some fronts this week just to get the feel again, I like them too, I can really settle into the hole.

As far as my powerclean form, I haven't practiced much but I'm having problems not pulling with my arms and also receiving the bar...pretty much the whole thing. Kind of the equivalent of this:

http://media.putfile.com/max_deadlift_440x2

In regards to power cleans, make sure to use a hook grip. Let the bar kind've hang in your hands with it. It makes it much easier to use the arms only as ropes, with hooks at the end. Nothing more. When you whip them up, think of them as being loose, like little flails. Also, one of Mark's good tips was to act like you're trying to strike someone with your elbows, twirling them under and up real quick. Gotta make it snappy.

Yes, I'm saying to do chinups/pullups with a supinated/underhand/palms facing you grip. Keep it shoulder-width. The reason palms facing away is harder is 'cause the biceps don't have an optimal line of pull, so they don't attribute as much as they could to the exercise. That's why you'll see people able to do more chinups (underhand) than pullups (overhand). I see no reason to use pullups, since the more musculature you use allows more load to be used, and more load is what we're all after, 'cause strength is good, and it also leads to size, provided there's a caloric excess. BLEH - That was a mouth full.

As long as you can handle the added volume, go for it. I'm sure you'll notice if anything is wrong and you begin to overtrain prematurely.

What were your pre 5x5 numbers? I take it the post numbers are after both 5x5 cycles. Love to hear what you had going before two full dual-factor cycles.

AND - 25 lbs. after both 5x5's? How much was fat? An inch on the waist? Four? Sorry, I'm very picky about details.

Hmm good idea about the hook grip...I'll give it a try when I have a spare moment...also, hadn't heard that one about hitting something with elbows. I gave a quick glance at Starting Strength before my session this week. Maybe I'll give it thorough read this weekend.

Thanks for pullup info, good stuff. I defintely can load more supinated than pronated. I'm going for caloric excess this time, good time of the year for it.

25lbs - I don't know exactly the muscle/fat breakdown but it was more fat than I would've liked. Too many Madcow burgers, I figure. I went from 34 pants to 36, FWIW. 34's were laughably tight, I had to wear a belt with the 36's...

Pre 5 x 5, I think my bench was around 250-60, dead was ~275-295 (never really trained it, and used to touch and go). I don't even want to fathom what my full squat was...probably 250. This was using 1 bodypart/week routine

Yeah, read the power clean portion of Starting Strength. Lots of good tidbits, there. I lower hang cleans, to be honest. The part from the floor isn't as fun for me. I'll do it, but I don't like it.

Most can. Some can raise the arguement of a bicep tear occurring, or forearm problems due to heavy loads placed on those muscles as you progress in the exercise. If you begin to feel any pains, you can just switch over to a pronated grip. Although, the rotator cuff is placed in a more dangerous position with an overhand grip for rows and pullups.

If the 34's were tight, and you needed a belt to keep the 36's snug, then it doesn't sound like there was too much fat gain over the course of two cycles. I'm sure there was noticable growth, no? How did you notice your chest growth (not the measurement around, 'cause that includes the back) from the flat benching and OHPing? Noticably bigger, or nothing impressive?

I feel a bit thicker all around, nothing really blew up. Visibly, my traps are bigger, at least that's what people seem to notice.

Chest might be bigger, but seems like there's a layer of fat over it now. I think I need one of Kramer's 'bros'

The Friday looks a shade over-loaded and, assuming that RDL is easier than DL, the Wednesday looks under-loaded. I usually do any triceps exercises on the Monday workout.

What are you aiming for with the Wednesday workout given that you are intentionally avoiding heavy deads?

Jim Ouini said:

just adding the powershrugs because I like them. I've heard MC2 say to sub them in for rows, but I figure after Korte I can do the extra work

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FYI - I never said to substitute generic power shrugs, I said that if you were going to add them in and didn't want to affect the vanilla workload too much that I would swap them for rows but do them from a traditional hang position - so effectively they become a clean pull from the hang. This is a more suitable substitution for core backwork like a row over a training cycle.

blut wump said:

The Friday looks a shade over-loaded and, assuming that RDL is easier than DL, the Wednesday looks under-loaded. I usually do any triceps exercises on the Monday workout.

What are you aiming for with the Wednesday workout given that you are intentionally avoiding heavy deads?

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Well I hadn't done arms in awhile, so I looked at the original Starr and he had all the arm stuff on Friday. I figured it was so you didn't affect any of the big lifts for the rest of the week. Maybe I'm stilll in the old BB mentality here. Do you recommend splitting up the arm work over the week?

As far as Wed: It's a pretty light day except for the dead (BTW, I tested my OHP last week and I can't believe how much they suck. I only got 135 x 4. May have to go back to push press). I wanted something that mimicked/helped my dead, so for me that's RDL, and this was the only day I could fit it. I did some practice sets and got 405 for 5 tough but doable reps. I am concerned a bit about not pulling off the floor, though. Any thoughts or suggestions? Should I try to increase loading on Wed? I guess I could dead, I was thinking a little break while working on assistance might give me a shot in the arm (or back, as it were...)

Madcow2 said:

FYI - I never said to substitute generic power shrugs, I said that if you were going to add them in and didn't want to affect the vanilla workload too much that I would swap them for rows but do them from a traditional hang position - so effectively they become a clean pull from the hang. This is a more suitable substitution for core backwork like a row over a training cycle.

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Errr, yeah that's what I meant

BTW, perhaps I'm reading this wrong but I thought the powershrug was basically a clean pull low from the hang? What's the diff between this and the 'generic powershrug'?