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Here's my DF 5 x 5, modified

Jim Ouini

Jim Ouini

New member
Recent training background:

Ran two 2 DF 5 x 5's: First run, ran it exactly as MC2 prescribed. Second run, subbed clean pull for BB row. Good results on both.

Did some conditioning stuff for 8 weeks, then ran Korte. Good results.

Now I want to start another 5 x 5 with this layout:

Monday (1 x 5 except squat 5 x 5)
Squat
Bench
BB row
Power Shrug

Wed (5 x 5)
Front Squat
Romanian DL
OHP
Pullup

Fri (5 x 5 except squat 1 x 5)
Squat
Bench
BB row
Power Shrug
BB curl, skullcrusher (3 x 8-10)
Dips (3 x 5-8)

Then deload and intensity as per usual. I'll also add the weighted hypers, situps and maybe calves somewhere. Was going to try some powercleans but my form is awful. :rolleyes:

I'm taking a break from deadlifting after my biffed 500 attempt, so I subbed in the RDL's, which I used to do a lot of. Should I do clean pull low instead of powershrug to keep some pulling off the floor? Also, I haven't done any arm stuff in awhile, so I hope this Friday stuff isn't too much. Thoughts or suggestions appreciated. Thanks!
 
Out of curiosity, what were your results in terms of strength and mass gain from the 5x5 cycles, and then Korte? :)

Also, what weights did you push in the first week of your first 5x5 on squat, row and bench, and what are you pushing your first week this time? Sorry, just trying to get a picture for the overall progress so far.

I rather like your layout. I'd do the pullups supinated/underhand, same for rows, but that's just me. Gives the biceps a better line of pull, more ROM (keep elbows at sides), and allows more weight to be used, thus loading the musculature more, and adding to more growth in the long run.

Front squats kick ass.

Try to video tape yourself doing power cleans. Maybe we can give you some pointers on 'em. I loved them, once I got the hang of 'em.
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
Out of curiosity, what were your results in terms of strength and mass gain from the 5x5 cycles, and then Korte? :)

Also, what weights did you push in the first week of your first 5x5 on squat, row and bench, and what are you pushing your first week this time? Sorry, just trying to get a picture for the overall progress so far.
Click to expand...

I put on about 25lbs after my 5 x 5's, pretty much stayed here at 202 now.

As far as strength, IIRC my post 5 x 5 numbers were:

Squat: 350 parallel (bad wheel)
Bench: 280
Dead: 461 calculated (from 435 x 3)

I tried my post Korte maxes this week: missed 500 dead, barely missed 295 bench and got 335 full squat. So I figure 20+ lbs on dead, 10-14lbs ;) on bench.

Anthrax Invasion said:
I rather like your layout. I'd do the pullups supinated/underhand, same for rows, but that's just me. Gives the biceps a better line of pull, more ROM (keep elbows at sides), and allows more weight to be used, thus loading the musculature more, and adding to more growth in the long run.

Front squats kick ass.

Try to video tape yourself doing power cleans. Maybe we can give you some pointers on 'em. I loved them, once I got the hang of 'em.
Click to expand...

Yeah I tried not to mess with the basic template too much, just adding the powershrugs because I like them. I've heard MC2 say to sub them in for rows, but I figure after Korte I can do the extra work :)

Just to be clear, are you saying to do chinups or pullups with supinated grip?

I did some fronts this week just to get the feel again, I like them too, I can really settle into the hole.

As far as my powerclean form, I haven't practiced much but I'm having problems not pulling with my arms and also receiving the bar...pretty much the whole thing. Kind of the equivalent of this:

http://media.putfile.com/max_deadlift_440x2

;)
 
In regards to power cleans, make sure to use a hook grip. Let the bar kind've hang in your hands with it. It makes it much easier to use the arms only as ropes, with hooks at the end. Nothing more. When you whip them up, think of them as being loose, like little flails. Also, one of Mark's good tips was to act like you're trying to strike someone with your elbows, twirling them under and up real quick. Gotta make it snappy. ;)

Yes, I'm saying to do chinups/pullups with a supinated/underhand/palms facing you grip. Keep it shoulder-width. The reason palms facing away is harder is 'cause the biceps don't have an optimal line of pull, so they don't attribute as much as they could to the exercise. That's why you'll see people able to do more chinups (underhand) than pullups (overhand). I see no reason to use pullups, since the more musculature you use allows more load to be used, and more load is what we're all after, 'cause strength is good, and it also leads to size, provided there's a caloric excess. BLEH - That was a mouth full.

As long as you can handle the added volume, go for it. I'm sure you'll notice if anything is wrong and you begin to overtrain prematurely.

What were your pre 5x5 numbers? I take it the post numbers are after both 5x5 cycles. Love to hear what you had going before two full dual-factor cycles.

AND - 25 lbs. after both 5x5's? How much was fat? An inch on the waist? Four? ;) Sorry, I'm very picky about details.
 
Hmm good idea about the hook grip...I'll give it a try when I have a spare moment...also, hadn't heard that one about hitting something with elbows. I gave a quick glance at Starting Strength before my session this week. Maybe I'll give it thorough read this weekend.

Thanks for pullup info, good stuff. I defintely can load more supinated than pronated. I'm going for caloric excess this time, good time of the year for it.

25lbs - I don't know exactly the muscle/fat breakdown but it was more fat than I would've liked. Too many Madcow burgers, I figure. I went from 34 pants to 36, FWIW. 34's were laughably tight, I had to wear a belt with the 36's...

Pre 5 x 5, I think my bench was around 250-60, dead was ~275-295 (never really trained it, and used to touch and go). I don't even want to fathom what my full squat was...probably 250. This was using 1 bodypart/week routine ;)
 
Yeah, read the power clean portion of Starting Strength. Lots of good tidbits, there. I lower hang cleans, to be honest. The part from the floor isn't as fun for me. I'll do it, but I don't like it. :)

Most can. Some can raise the arguement of a bicep tear occurring, or forearm problems due to heavy loads placed on those muscles as you progress in the exercise. If you begin to feel any pains, you can just switch over to a pronated grip. Although, the rotator cuff is placed in a more dangerous position with an overhand grip for rows and pullups.

If the 34's were tight, and you needed a belt to keep the 36's snug, then it doesn't sound like there was too much fat gain over the course of two cycles. I'm sure there was noticable growth, no? How did you notice your chest growth (not the measurement around, 'cause that includes the back) from the flat benching and OHPing? Noticably bigger, or nothing impressive?
 
I feel a bit thicker all around, nothing really blew up. Visibly, my traps are bigger, at least that's what people seem to notice.

Chest might be bigger, but seems like there's a layer of fat over it now. I think I need one of Kramer's 'bros' ;)
 
The Friday looks a shade over-loaded and, assuming that RDL is easier than DL, the Wednesday looks under-loaded. I usually do any triceps exercises on the Monday workout.

What are you aiming for with the Wednesday workout given that you are intentionally avoiding heavy deads?
 
Jim Ouini said:
just adding the powershrugs because I like them. I've heard MC2 say to sub them in for rows, but I figure after Korte I can do the extra work :)
Click to expand...

FYI - I never said to substitute generic power shrugs, I said that if you were going to add them in and didn't want to affect the vanilla workload too much that I would swap them for rows but do them from a traditional hang position - so effectively they become a clean pull from the hang. This is a more suitable substitution for core backwork like a row over a training cycle.
 
blut wump said:
The Friday looks a shade over-loaded and, assuming that RDL is easier than DL, the Wednesday looks under-loaded. I usually do any triceps exercises on the Monday workout.

What are you aiming for with the Wednesday workout given that you are intentionally avoiding heavy deads?
Click to expand...

Well I hadn't done arms in awhile, so I looked at the original Starr and he had all the arm stuff on Friday. I figured it was so you didn't affect any of the big lifts for the rest of the week. Maybe I'm stilll in the old BB mentality here. Do you recommend splitting up the arm work over the week?

As far as Wed: It's a pretty light day except for the dead (BTW, I tested my OHP last week and I can't believe how much they suck. I only got 135 x 4. May have to go back to push press). I wanted something that mimicked/helped my dead, so for me that's RDL, and this was the only day I could fit it. I did some practice sets and got 405 for 5 tough but doable reps. I am concerned a bit about not pulling off the floor, though. Any thoughts or suggestions? Should I try to increase loading on Wed? I guess I could dead, I was thinking a little break while working on assistance might give me a shot in the arm (or back, as it were...)

Madcow2 said:
FYI - I never said to substitute generic power shrugs, I said that if you were going to add them in and didn't want to affect the vanilla workload too much that I would swap them for rows but do them from a traditional hang position - so effectively they become a clean pull from the hang. This is a more suitable substitution for core backwork like a row over a training cycle.
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Errr, yeah that's what I meant :)

BTW, perhaps I'm reading this wrong but I thought the powershrug was basically a clean pull low from the hang? What's the diff between this and the 'generic powershrug'?
 
When did you last try GMs or box squats? About a month back I was doing front squats and GMs on my Wednesdays. They didn't seem to interfere with each other.

Don't take my advice on arms, I last did biceps in August.
 
Last week I did a few exercises to see which ones I liked to put my program together. I did GM's but only got 185 x 5 before it started feeling heavy. So I thought RDL's would be a better choice since I can go heavier, and the way I do them they're basically the same movement. So my Wed is a lot like yours (fronts and a big hip move).

I haven't box squatted in a long time, I think my second 5 x 5 which was ~20 weeks ago. Are you suggesting these as a sub for fronts on Wed?

blut wump said:
Don't take my advice on arms, I last did biceps in August.
Click to expand...

I think some of the guys that know be now will be surprised to see me doing bb curls. I remember not long ago I had an arm day(tm) that looked like this:

chin ups/tricep extension
incline db curls/dips
high cable curls or preacher curls/tricep pushdown

Oh my...
 
Jim Ouini said:
Last week I did a few exercises to see which ones I liked to put my program together. I did GM's but only got 185 x 5 before it started feeling heavy. So I thought RDL's would be a better choice since I can go heavier, and the way I do them they're basically the same movement. So my Wed is a lot like yours (fronts and a big hip move).

I haven't box squatted in a long time, I think my second 5 x 5 which was ~20 weeks ago. Are you suggesting these as a sub for fronts on Wed?



I think some of the guys that know be now will be surprised to see me doing bb curls. I remember not long ago I had an arm day(tm) that looked like this:

chin ups/tricep extension
incline db curls/dips
high cable curls or preacher curls/tricep pushdown

Oh my...
Click to expand...
No, you wouldn't box-squat and GM together. That'd be as bad as box-squatting and deadlifting, which I've tried. :)

A couple of my favourite triceps exercises are overhead BB extensions and JM Press. Of course, pushdowns are better for a pump and should be included in any arm day. Were those triceps extensions DB overhead extensions or kickbacks?
 
blut wump said:
Of course, pushdowns are better for a pump and should be included in any arm day. Were those triceps extensions DB overhead extensions or kickbacks?
Click to expand...

I'd alternate them to confuse the muscle :sulk:
 
Jim Ouini said:
Errr, yeah that's what I meant :)

BTW, perhaps I'm reading this wrong but I thought the powershrug was basically a clean pull low from the hang? What's the diff between this and the 'generic powershrug'?
Click to expand...

Generic powershrug is from a very high hang position with only very minimal torso tilt. Smaller limited ROM in a very strong range, can use more weight but for pure development likely not a great choice. Full range pulls (traditional hang or floor), rows, and pullups/chins should be bread and butter choices.
 
I see. Great info as usual, thanks Madcow.

I think I'll do them from traditional hang. Or, do you think it'd be better just do them from the floor. That is, clean pull on M/F to keep a pull from the floor in the routine if I want to RDL on Wed?
 
Jim Ouini said:
I think I'll do them from traditional hang. Or, do you think it'd be better just do them from the floor. That is, clean pull on M/F to keep a pull from the floor in the routine if I want to RDL on Wed?
Click to expand...

I don't know. Would depend on the person as to what would be the best option at a point in time - neither is poor logic. Think about, plan out your decision, work hard, and tell me how it goes for you. :)
 
Welp, just finished the first day. Ah well may as well log it:

Week 1 Day 1

Squat 5 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 2
205 x 5 x 5

Had 225 as my workset but didn't want to push it too far. Had to get out of Korte mode with the 2-5% jumps in weight. IIRC, I took bigger jumps from week to week with 5 x 5, so I felt it's OK to start a bit lighter in week 1.

Bench 1 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 5
195 x 5
205 x 5
215 x 5
220 x 5

Might've overshot this. Week 1 Day 1 of my last 5 x 5 was at 205 x 5 here, and I don't think I got that much stronger from my Korte. So I pulled back from 225 and stopped at 220 - it wasn't hard, I was able to pause with the bar each rep, but it wasn't 'week 1 easy', I don't think. Will have to keep an eye on this.

BB row 1 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
155 x 5
165 x 5
175 x 5
185 x 5

Pretty easy, felt great after not rowing for awhile. Kept super strict form with back never budging from parallel :Chef:

Powershrug (from hang) 1 x 5
135 x 5
225 x 5
275 x 5
315 x 5
365 x 5
385 x 5

I like this hang business. A bit harder than the generic PS but I was able to get a better hip thrust and thus I think my shrugging was better.

Weighted Hypers
45? x 3 x 8

Used a short olympic bar, I figured it weighed 25lbs or so, and put 10's on it. Kind of hurt my neck a little, so I had to wrap a 'pussy towel' around it. :(

Weighted Decline Situps
10 x 3 x 10

Last set was tough. Had to rest between reps, haven't done full situps in a long time.

B-diddy is probably right, Friday is going to be a looong workout.
 
You mean goofy in terms of length of workout? or something else, like workout design?

Maybe I should do BB curls monday, dips on Wed and skullcrushers on Fri?

Starr had all the 'beach work' on Fri, including dips, but I may be at the gym for 3hrs ;)
 
Just that it'd be so damn long. I think that the arm stuff is (or at least should be) inconsequential from a load standpoint, but having the one marathon workout would bug me. More personal preference than anything else IMO.
 
I fel queasy just looking at that Friday workout and imagining week 4.

With the weighted hypers. If the bar on your neck is bothering you, maybe you could consider hugging a DB to your chest. BTW it's odd to be seeing a 5x5 again, in a refreshing way.
 
Ok guys thanks for the input.

I think I'll do bb curl on Monday, dips and skullcrushers on Wed. Or something like that ;)

As far as hypers I felt like the bar would make it harder, I might be wrong. May have to go back to the db.

blut wump said:
BTW it's odd to be seeing a 5x5 again, in a refreshing way.
Click to expand...

Isn't it though. As I said it's been hard to transition out of Korte, I keep thinking I'll only go up 5 or 10lbs next week.
 
Could always do one set of dips, curls, and skullcrushers M/W/F. Adds up to three sets a week, would probably pronounce the summation effect of training and keep your arms more pumped, while allowing you to allot the workload equally. Three sets of triceps could be lackluster after any kind've pressing. A single set, though, could be done with easy.

HST advocates would certainly approve of a set three times a week.
 
Week 1 Day 2

Front Squat
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
165 x 5 x 5

Hey it's only Week 1 :p Anyway they were OK, tried different tempos like pausing at the bottom and also just up and down real quick. I think I like the up and down ;) Not sure I really like 5 reps, I'm considering 12 x 2 or something like that, especially as it gets heavier. Any thoughts? Or should I just pull my panties up and stick with 5 x 5?

Romanian DL
bar x 8
135 x 5
225 x 2
275 x 1
315 x 5 x 5

Pretty easy concentric, had to concentrate on the eccentric, mostly keeping my shoulders back. Probably could've started higher, I'm aiming for 420-ish 5 x 5 in Week 4.

OHP
bar x 5
95 x 5

Not feelling great about this lift, so I started real light since I wanted to get my reps in. By the 3rd set I settled on an ever so slight leg drive and that really helped, sailed on through the 2 sets.

Chinups, shoulder width
BW x 5 x 5

First 3 were laughingly easy. Last 2 sets pathetically hard.

Dips
25 x 3 x 8

Easy, mostly being careful about my shoulder.

Weighted Decline Situps
10 x 3 x 10

Overall good workout. About 1hr 45 min. I told a couple guys I know I'm doing BB curls and skullcrushers on Friday, one of them said 'It's about time, you need it' :(

Next week I'll probably spread out the arm stuff like you guys suggest.
 
Not sure I really like 5 reps, I'm considering 12 x 2 or something like that, especially as it gets heavier.
Click to expand...

I seem to be limited by my rack when I go for 5 reps. So for example, I'd probably lose my rack at 225 x 5, and would likely think about dropping my weight to 205.

Whereas I'd start thinking about going up to 245-55 if I was going for 2 reps.

So in terms of total load, it'd be something like:

205 x 5 x 5 = 5125

245 x 12 x 2 = 5880

On the other hand, I only do this lift once per week and will drop it after Week 4, so maybe not so concerning.
 
Week 1 Day 3

Squat 1 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
165 x 1
195 x 1
195 x 5
225 x 5
255 x 5

I forgot I was supposed to pyramid up with 5 reps. I caught the error at 195 so I just repeated the weight and took it from there.
255 maybe harder than week 1 should be. Again, will have to keep an eye out and maybe only go up 5-10lbs/week.

Bench 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
205 x 5 x 5

About right. Wrist started bothering me, ironically during squats, and felt a twinge during bench.

BB row 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
165 x 5 x 5

Maybe undershot these. Pretty easy but trying to reign it in after heavier- than-it-should be squats.

Powershrug (from hang) 5 x 5
135 x 5
225 x 5
315 x 5 x 5

Used snatch grip. Easy.

BB curls
55 x 3 x 10

Skullcrushers
65 x 2 x 10, x 8

Hadn't done these in eons. I thought I'd suck at these, and, well, I was right.

Weighted Hypers
55 x 3 x 8

Used db this time. No problems.

Weighted Decline Situps
10 x 3 x 10

Overall, might've messed up some weights this week, I'll have to dial it in next week with some conservative jumps on squats and bench, and maybe larger in powershrugs and rows.
 
You pull some pretty impressive weights. What are your 1 or 5 RMs?
 
Well thanks AI, but I didn't really think these were that great of lifts - my bench and squat are about average for my weight, (~202 now), OHP probably below average and I'm horribly weak in BB curls ;) I saw 160lb guys curling way more than I did today (I think Friday's are 'arm day' at my gym). My dead is OK but I think it's mostly technnique. :)

Anyway, 1RM"s in the squat, bench, dead are 335, 290-ish, 490-ish after recent Korte run.

I'm aiming for 5rm's of around 295 and 265 on squat and bench and 420-ish on RDL.

Also, I may have forgotton how tough 5 x 5 can be; I think I underestimated it after the hell of the Korte volume phase, but 5 x 5 is hard work and not to be taken lightly :chomp:
 
What's this with your wrists? I remember reading something in "Starting Strength" about getting elbows back to prevent any tendency to support the weight during squats on your arms. Could this be pertinent to you?

Do you maybe have a technique issue with the skulls? From your Korte narrow bench, I'd expect you to be handling that weight comfortably.
 
I don't think it's major, just felt a twinge as I locked out on bench, and when I felt it on squats I think I had my wrists bent back, so on the following sets I changed to a more neutral wrist position.

As far as skulls, I've never been very good at tricep extensions, I've always been better at dips and presses.

Also, this morning I was thinking I'm going to take AI's advice and try 1 set BB curls and skulls each workout. I find the first set to be pretty easy but by the 3rd set I poop out. Maybe I just can't handle the burn :)
 
Week 2 Day 1

Squat 5 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 2
225 x 5
245 x 4 x 5

Kicked it up a notch after 225. Next week is supposed to be 'max week' so I figured may as well push it. On my 245 sets I did a pause squat on my last rep to make sure. Tough.

Bench 1 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
165 x 5
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
245 x 5

I looked at my log from my 2nd 5 x 5 run way back when and at the same point and I did 225 x 5. So I figured I should best it. Sadly, these were tougher than I thought they'd be, I struggled a bit on the last rep.

BB row 1 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
165 x 5
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5

225 also a bit on the hard side. Elbow pain started to flare up, I'm going to have to wear an elbow sleeve next time.

Powershrug (from hang) 1 x 5
135 x 5
225 x 5
315 x 5
365 x 5
405 x 5
425 x 5

Not sure how high I got my shoulder up on my last set, more hip snap than anything, perhaps.

Weighted Hypers
65 x 3 x 8

No problem, used a dumbell again.

Weighted Decline Situps
15 x 3 x 10

Also did 1 set of BB curls 60 x 10 and skullcrushers 75 x 10 ;)
 
Awright, took my advice! Have you noticed, in the one week of training, any extra girth to the arms?
 
Anthrax Invasion said:
Awright, took my advice! Have you noticed, in the one week of training, any extra girth to the arms?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I had to go see a veterinarian today - my pythons are sick :Chef:

Anyway, bad jokes aside, I plan on doing the same weight on BB curls/skulls, 1 set each on M-W-F, then each week go up 5 or 10lbs.
 
:FRlol: :lmao: That was hilarious! It was so ridiculously stupid, but it was great!

I like your plan. It's almost as if a divine being themself designed the isolated arm work for you, what with that division of frequency across the week and all. ;)
 
It sounds a lot smoother when I say it to all the hot chicks at my gym :rolleyes:

As far as the routine, I really have low tolerance for curls and extensions - both mentally and physically. So anything I can do to minimize what seems like the time spent doing them I'm willing to try. :)
 
Week 2 Day 2

Front Squat
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
165 x 2
185 x 1
205 x 8 x 3

Well I decided to try 8 x 3. I'm kind of sorry I did, it took me too damn long and by the end I was tuckered out. I think if I'd just sucked it up I could've done 5 x 5, of course it sounds easier now sitting in from of my computer. :p

As far as the actual sets, they were pretty good, I paused butt to ankles on each rep.

Romanian DL
bar x 8
135 x 5
225 x 2
275 x 1
315 x 1
365 x 5 x 5

Weight wasn't too bad, just kinda tired.

OHP
bar x 5
115 x 5 x 5

Awful. Got all my reps but they were hard. I feel like I have some kind of flexibility (or strength) problem near lockout...the same feeling I get when I go ass over elbow trying to overhead squat. Will probably go up only to 120 or so next week. Thinking about doing incline bench instead.

Chinups, shoulder width
5 x 5 x 5

Not bad, elbow kind of hurt again but not searing pain, just a twinge to remind me it's there.

Dips
35 x 3 x 8

Easy.

Oh by the way I used my dip belt from Ironmind for dips and chins. I love it, it's so light and fits great around the waist.

Weighted Decline Situps
15 x 3 x 10

Skipped bb curls and skulls :evil: - workout was approaching 2hrs and I needed to get home. Again it wasn't so much the weight except for OHP, but just tiring. I'm begging for Korte volume phase ;)
 
It's so strange to me that you're light years ahead of me on DL but I've got you smoked on squats. We're both inept in our own unique ways :)
 
Guinness5.0 said:
It's so strange to me that you're light years ahead of me on DL but I've got you smoked on squats. We're both inept in our own unique ways :)
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Hey what's wrong with 205 fronts? It's only Week 2 baby! :p

Seriously though it is kinda funny, it must be individual differences in our leverages or something. My squat really is lagging and not coming up as fast I'd hoped after I switched to full squatting.
 
I console myself by adding in my bodyweight to the amount lifted. My bench is crap because I have really big hands and Popeye forarms.

I tried some OH squats yesterday. I'd tried them last week but it was a complete farce and I quickly gave up. I almost gave up yesterday but persevered and was reasonably comfortably repping out sets with just the bar after some practice. There's a groove I have to follow and if I can stick to it then the movement is ok. I might add some 5Kg plates next time.

GlennPendlay suggested that 80-85% of rear squat weight is a reasonable expectation for front squats.
 
There's a thought - maybe I should try some OH squats as part of my rehab, since I won't be lifting heavy for the next two or three weeks.
 
I'd recommend trying it with a broom before grabbing a 20Kg bar. I can't remember, did you try front squats?
 
No, I just tried squatting down with my hands in front squat position without a bar and I could feel a little bit of pressure on my back, so I didn't try them. I'm not planning on doing anything heavy until my back's ready, but light OH squats sound fun - more about balance to start with. Are they really that tricky that you wouldn't start with the bar?
 
For someone who isn't a natural at them it can be an "oh, whoa" moment when they get down close to parallel. Better to know what it feels like first but if a stick isn't handy I wouldn't go crazy trying to find one. Just don't go dropping down like a rock into the hole. Feel it out and see how your body lines up. It's always awkward at first but you get in the groove pretty quickly.
 
That describes it pretty well. I felt fine until just above parallel and felt tension all over at trying to go any further. Tipping my body slightly forwards helped me to find a groove to move in.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
It's so strange to me that you're light years ahead of me on DL but I've got you smoked on squats. We're both inept in our own unique ways :)
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I read what Glenn wrote in the front squat thread about quad and back strengths and started wondering where your respective weaknesses were. Kinda drew a blank though. Both squats and deads require a strong back, but squats require more legs. I don't mean to play you guys off on each other, but Jim, if your back's stronger than Guinness's and his wheels are stronger than yours, then he should be front squatting more than you, so long as he's equally proficient in the lift. Yes?

If so, G5.0... what's your front squat?
 
Well, we all know G5.0 does quarter squats, so that's probably one of the reasons :p

Seriously though, I've never concentrated on fronts much. I really don't have too much problem coming out of the hole even when I'm butt to ankles (so far at 225 x 2) - it's the rack that I lose, but I'm working on it.

So this 5 x 5 I'm going for 225 x 5 next week, and then 235 x 5 in week 4. I think that'll be pushing it.

So if I apply the 80% rule I guess it sounds about right - both my back and front squat are feeble. ;)
 
anotherbutters said:
If so, G5.0... what's your front squat?
Click to expand...
I haven't done it enough to know. Like Jim, it feels easy strength-wise but it's tough to handle. The first time I tried 'em i thought I was a natural for them - I had no problem with 205 or so a whille back IIRC, but 185 felt insecure the other day. So I'm confused as usual. EDIT: just searched my old posts and I noted that 195 for two sets of six was cake and easy to rack. I power cleaned the bar up so I'll try that next weds. and see if it helps.

i gotta get some vids of my hams bouncing off my calves to eliminate the nonsensical comments from Jim :D
 
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lol @ BW. Evil Bastard.

I would like to squat with you suckers one of these days. As long as you don't mind stripping plates when my turn comes up.
 
Week 2 Day 3

Squat 1 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
245 x 5
265 x 5

Hard, might've overshot. Will probably only go to 270 next Fri. Happy with form/depth, though. Even my wife said I was low enough :rolleyes:

Bench 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 5 x 5

No problems, started to tire around 4th set, though.

BB row 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
205 x 5 x 5

Tried underhand grip every other set just to try it. Felt OK, I may continue this.

Powershrug (from hang) 5 x 5
135 x 5
225 x 5
315 x 2
405 x 5 x 5

Started feeling heavy. Really heaved the weight up although not sure how high my shoulders got.

BB curls
65 x 2 x 10

Skullcrushers
75 x 1 x 9

Gave up on skulls, too tired.

Weighted Hypers
65 x 3 x 8

Weighted Decline Situps
15 x 3 x 10

Week 2 summary: Probably harder than it should've been, next couple weeks will be very small increments on squat, bench and OHP. Kinda strange since at least from a bench standpoint I'm sure my 1RM went up from Korte - I mean I tested it - not a lot but it went up. But these 5 rep sets at 80% or so are pretty hard. With Korte I did a lot of volume at 60% and minimal at 90-100%, so I'm wondering if I got weaker in this range.
 
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Hey, someone else tried the supinated row? Good stuff! Did it feel more difficult or easier?
 
I liked it. Elbow might've felt better, range of motion maybe a little better. Not a huge difference, though. In terms of 'feeling my lats', hard to say since at 5 reps I don't really feel them either way.

How's that for no helpful information ;)
 
The squat part of the workout seems a little under-repped for a 5x5 but that Friday workout just keeps on going. I'm going to be astonished if you're still doing all that in two weeks' time.
 
Oops you're right. I edited my squat, I actually did 5 x 5 pyramid up to 265.

blut wump said:
I'm going to be astonished if you're still doing all that in two weeks' time.
Click to expand...

I bet you 50 K I'll do it :p (except for arm work)
 
Yeah I messed up. I looked at my layout in my logbook and 295 is 'targeted' 1 x 5 in Week 3, 315 is 'targeted' 1 x 5 in Week 4.

Right now I'm feeling like those are overshot, since 265 is feeling heavier than Week 2 should.

Still irked though ;)
 
Jim Ouini said:
Oops you're right. I edited my squat, I actually did 5 x 5 pyramid up to 265.



I bet you 50 K I'll do it :p (except for arm work)
Click to expand...
You don't have 50,000 to bet. ;)

I'll take that bet for 50, though.
 
Speaking of OH squats, I tried some again with a 'standard' bar at the gym on Friday - I think it weighs 12lbs or so.

I was able to finally get as low as my front squat but my friend pointed out to me that I was really twisted up - my left arm was way forward of my right arm. Kind of interesting because on my pathetic military press I feel I have problems locking out with my left arm, even with light weight.

I think I'm going to do some light OH squats during my warmups just to practice, maybe it'll help with some shoulder flexiblity/stabilization issues.
 
I think it was Musketeer who said he uses them as warmups before his back squats. I think that's a pretty good idea as the weight's always going to be a lot lower.

I just tried a few with a table leg that I happen to have handy (don't ask) and I found it difficult to keep my arms back whilst arching my back in order to keep it above my head when in the hole. It feels a lot more natural to have the bar slightly in front of me, or do I just need to be a bit more bendy?

EDIT: FYI, my back feels 100% better now, with no pain at all, but I still have a follow-up chiro appointment tomorrow. Can't wait to get back into it (albeit slowly).
 
This is too perverse. I also tried them last week.

I found it helped a lot to tilt my body ever so slightly forwards. I spent a while practicing with an Oly bar and, during the early sets, I had the same problem of finding it difficult to keep my arms back. Just keep practicing. I found a reasonable groove within a few sets. The feeling on passing parallel at first was odd.
 
I'm always amazed by what these guys on the Ironmind videos can lift overhead, whether it's pressing, squatting or snatching.

They must practice a lot.
 
Week 3 Day 1

Squat 5 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 2
225 x 1
255 x 5 x 5

Hard, although they got a little easier as I went along.

Bench 1 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
165 x 5
185 x 5
225 x 5
255 x 5

Hard. Barely got the fifth rep at 255, really had to grind it. My friend said that's the 'hardest I've ever seen you work benching' :rolleyes:

BB row 1 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
165 x 5
185 x 5
225 x 5
225 x 5
255 x 5

Hard again ;) Had to use some body english on the last set.

Interesting I did 255 on squat, bench and row today, didn't plan it that way.

Powershrug (from hang) 1 x 5
135 x 5
225 x 5
275 x 5
315 x 5
385 x 5
435 x 5

Heavy, felt good though. Shrug part was better.

Weighted Hypers
75 x 3 x 8

Weighted Decline Situps
20 x 3 x 10

Switched to 1 set of incline db curls 30 x 10 and incline db tricep extensions 30 x 10 :rolleyes: Mostly for elbow/wrist preservation.

Tough workout. BW: the bet is 25 K per week, right? ;)
 
For a Korte veteran, anything is possible.

Sounds like a tough workout to get you in the mindset for next week. ;)
 
Yeah it was tough, I looked at my log from my 2nd 5 x 5 and my bench and I think OHP and BB row were same or higher. Squats kind of a wash since I my depth is a lot better now.

The thing about Korte is that in the prep phase the intensity was low and the volume was really high. In the comp phase the volume was really low and the intensity was high (as you know very well) - not much work inbetween.

Basically, I feel like I got weaker in this range after Korte (~80 1RM x 5)....
 
I was thinking the same for a little while but a deload week took care of it. It was a nasty shock to have considered the Smolov and failed to complete day 1 but I was definitely squatting on tired legs.

It could be that an improved squat form means that you're doing more work on the squats than before and so the other lifts are suffering slightly because of it.
 
blut wump said:
It could be that an improved squat form means that you're doing more work on the squats than before and so the other lifts are suffering slightly because of it.
Click to expand...

Could very well be, some quarter squats sure sound good right now ;)

On a related note, front squats are a lot more taxing to me than light back squats, I know I'm knackered by the time I finish. So Wednesdays are no joke. OTOH, week 5 should be a real holiday.
 
Lol, these dual-factor programs all have that in common. They start nice and easy and then all that matters is reaching the deload week. Of course, that doesn't include the Smolov. ;)
 
Week 3 Day 2

Front Squat
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 1
205 x 3 x 5 (same as last week - I'll explain)
215 x 2 x 5
225 x 1

Goal was 215 x 5 x 5; ashamedly, for the first 3 sets I actually had 25 + 5 on one side and 35 + 5 (what it should've been for 215) on the other. Hey, the 25's and 35's look the same from a distance ;) I thought it felt funny when I walked out but figured that was my crappy rack technique. Anyway, I corrected it on my final 2 sets, almost lost my rack on the last rep of 215 - I was pausing at the bottom on the last rep of each set for a second or so and on the last one my elbows dropped. Anyway, I then did a very easy rep for 225 to 'make up' for the snafu. Although it probably didn't do much.

On the bright side, rack felt pretty good overall.

Romanian DL
bar x 8
135 x 5
225 x 2
315 x 1
365 x 1
385 x 5 x 5

Not too bad, was contemplating 405 but kind of glad I didn't because by the last set I was pretty gassed.

OHP
bar x 5
95 x 1
120 x 5 x 5

A little less pathetic than usual.

Chinups, shoulder width
15 x 5 x 5

Somewhat difficult; kind of cheated towards the end by not extending my arms all the way at the bottom.

Dips
70 x 2 x 8, 1 x 7

Hard; failed last rep.

Weighted Decline Situps
20 x 3 x 10

1 set of incline db curls 30 x 10 and incline tricep extension 30 x 10 . Yay.
 
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Week 3 Day 3

Squat 1 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
250 x 5
275 x 5

Wore a belt on 275 - I like it :p Pretty easy, surprisingly. I did a pause squat on my last rep and felt like I could've gone higher but wanted to leave a bit in the tank for next week. Form was great, in fact, I'd venture to say if Guinness' hottie saw my form, she'd say his squat is the 2nd best she's seen :Chef:

Bench 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 1
250 x 4 x 5, 1 x 4

Missed last rep at 250, spotter had to tap it. Not unhappy though. I'll probably repeat this weight next week.

BB row 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 5 x 5

About what I expected; hard but reps never in doubt. On my second set, some guy (wearing a belt, BTW) came up to me and asked 'Where's your belt?' I told him I don't wear one except for heavy squats. So he rolls his eyes and says 'OOOO-KAY'. Anyway, I look over and he's in the power rack. Doing tricep kickbacks. And wearing his belt. :FRlol:

Powershrug (from hang) 5 x 5
415 x 5 x 5

Heavy, but got in the groove last 2 sets.

Weighted Hypers
75 x 3 x 8

Weighted Decline Situps
20 x 3 x 10

I set each of db incline curls and db tricep extensions 30 x 10 :rainbow:

Whew. Glad the weekend is here, I some R&R, might be getting loaded up ahead of schedule although I'm really pleased with my squat today. I think I can push everything except for bench next week.
 
Weekend note: It has begun...felt tired and achey last night, slept about 12hrs and today walking around real slow. Anytime I sit down I feel like closing my eyes and sleeping.
 
Jim Ouini said:
Week 3 Day 3


About what I expected; hard but reps never in doubt. On my second set, some guy (wearing a belt, BTW) came up to me and asked 'Where's your belt?' I told him I don't wear one except for heavy squats. So he rolls his eyes and says 'OOOO-KAY'. Anyway, I look over and he's in the power rack. Doing tricep kickbacks. And wearing his belt. :FRlol:
Click to expand...


Thats damn hilarious!!! Typical gym rat.
 
Jim Ouini said:
Weekend note: It has begun...felt tired and achey last night, slept about 12hrs and today walking around real slow. Anytime I sit down I feel like closing my eyes and sleeping.
Click to expand...
Cool. You've not made any comparisons to the Korte for a long while. I get the impression that overall you're working harder here. What do you think?
 
JL_204 said:
Thats damn hilarious!!! Typical gym rat.
Click to expand...

Since I lift at Bally's it's expected, really :) I've had a woman on the smith machine tell me I'm overtraining squats, the lecture from 'the-guy-who-tells-you-going-so-low-will-ruin-your-knees(TM)' and another tell me I shouldn't cheat so much on my shrugs. Gotta love advice from the gym rats, I take no offense though. Hell I might've said the same thing a year ago :Chef:

Cool. You've not made any comparisons to the Korte for a long while. I get the impression that overall you're working harder here. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Equally as hard but in a different way :mix: IIRC, Korte volume was mostly mental since the weights were relatively light and reps were never in doubt, by design. Here I'm pushing 5RM's and also doing some lifts I haven't had a lot of practice with lately - BB row, OHP, Powershrug. I think the 5 x 5 I run after this will be better.
 
May as well add that last week this guy I know - vaguely - was doing the butt-blaster machine (which I always thought was womens only) and after his set he comes up to me and says 'dontcha just hate it when you see people doing things completely wrong' while pointing at some guy across the gym lol
 
You're making me miss the gym. I don't get any of this now that I work out at home. Hmm, I wonder if my old gym's still there after the explosion earlier. It was only a few hundred yards away.
 
Point them to EF so we can school them. People should be better educated if they're going to pursue lifting in any fashion. Either that, or kicked out of the gym for being complete fucking morons.
 
Week 4 Day 1

Squat 5 x 5
275 x 5 x 5

Wore my belt, made it easier. Not as easy as last Friday until my last 2 sets - not sure why exactly, maybe I finally got into a groove.

Bench 1 x 5
bar x 10
135 x 5
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
245 x 5
260 x 4 (missed 5th rep, spotter had to tap)

First 3 reps at 260 felt pretty good, then I hit the wall. Oh well.

BB row 1 x 5
135 x 5
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
245 x 5
260 x 5

Had to use some body english on last set. Quite a bit, actually. :Chef:

Powershrug (from hang) 1 x 5
135 x 5
225 x 5
275 x 5
315 x 5
365 x 5
405 x 5
455 x 5

Up to 405 felt good, got good shrug action. 455 hang wasn't hanging as low as the others, though. ;)

Weighted Hypers
80 x 3 x 8

Weighted Decline Situps
25 x 3 x 10

Switched to 1 set of incline db curls 35 x 10 and incline db tricep extensions 35 x 9

Tough workout, got started late but it actually it helped me push the workout along a little faster.
 
Has your BB row and your bench always been close to the same???

My BB row hasnt quite caught up yet, even after two 5x5 cycles. I must have some muscle imbalance issues.
 
Well I only started rowing - real BB rowing - when I started 5 x 5 a few months back, and I was pleasantly surprised that it was close to my bench.

This time around I've kind of made a conscious effort to keep 'em close, because of the balance thing. Although like I said my form wasn't perfect last set, FWIW :Chef:
 
Week 4 Day 2

Front Squat
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 1
225 x 3 x 2
225 x 4 x 4
225 x 3

:rolleyes:

Anyway, was supposed to do 225 x 5 x 5 but had a bunch of rack problems at this weight. So it took a few sets to get in the groove and be able to get 4 before I lost my rack. So I just did what I had to do to get the volume in. Oh well.

Romanian DL
bar x 8
135 x 5
225 x 2
315 x 1
365 x 1
405 x 5 x 5

Hard. Had a few reps where I couldn't get the hips back as far as I wanted.

OHP
bar x 5
95 x 1
125 x 3 x 5 (failed on last set, 5th rep)
115 x 2 x 5

Tried the contract the trap thing and it seemed to help until I got tired. Plus I had no legs so I couldn't use any drive. So maybe I worked my shouders more this workout ;)

Chinups, shoulder width
25 x 5 x 5

Pretty difficult, barely got to chin level last set.

Dips
70 x 2 x 8, 1 x 7

Hard; failed last rep again.

Skipped situps and arms. Had to meet my wife for dinner and was already running late due to prolonged front squat session.

Pretty grueling workout to be quite honest. I was halfway through RDL's thinking 'I'm done'. But I can smell BW's 50 K coming my way so I used my bulldog determination to get through it :p
 
would not be too hard regarding front squat.
most people keep it to 3 reps /set tops. maybe try 8sets of 3reps instead.
 
I was halfway though counting it out when I saw this post so I put it back on the shelf and made room for your 50 Karmas beside it. Don't forget to add taxes in.

It looks like you're well into loading. You're going to explode after the deload. I'd agree on the front squats for triples but that's not an issue after this week. ;)

Good luck for the last day of volume.
 
Numani said:
would not be too hard regarding front squat.
most people keep it to 3 reps /set tops. maybe try 8sets of 3reps instead.
Click to expand...

Tried that earlier and I liked it, but took too long as part of this program, since I'm not known for being speedy between sets :)

Really, the first rep or three are no problem, I feel strong and rack feels solid. Then it all goes to hell...

blut wump said:
It looks like you're well into loading. You're going to explode after the deload. I'd agree on the front squats for triples but that's not an issue after this week.

Good luck for the last day of volume.
Click to expand...

Thanks BW, I certainly hope this DF stuff works ;)
 
Week 4 Day 3

Squat 1 x 5
bar x 2 x 5
135 x 2 x 3
185 x 5
205 x 5
225 x 5
255 x 5
285 x 5 (belt)

Much harder than 275 last week, still got'em though.

Bench 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
225 x 1
255 x 4 (no spotter, didn't want to risk 5th rep)
250 x 2 x 5
245 x 2 x 5
225 x 5

Just realized I was supposed to repeat 250 again. I thought for sure it was 255 I did last week. I have to check my logbook again. Oh well, maybe that explains it, although I felt really really weak benching today. I figured it was overtraining as per the plan although maybe not quite this much :rolleyes:

And oh yeah some lady asked me to remove the plates some knucklehead left on the hammer strength chest press, took some energy out of me :chomp:

BB row 5 x 5
bar x 8
135 x 5
185 x 1
235 x 5 x 5

Hard, felt kind of lightheaded afterwards.

Powershrug (from hang) 5 x 5
425 x 5 x 5

Heavy, shrug action was good though.

Weighted Hypers
85 x 3 x 8

Weighted Decline Situps
25 x 3 x 10

Skipped arm work, too tired. I'm glad volume phase is over, pretty grueling. Honestly I can't remember if Korte was harder or not. Anyway, I'm thinking I need to up my cals now. I weighed myself after the workout and weighed in at 203. I've been eating maintenance and need to support some muscle growth so I'm going to make a concerted effort to get 200g protein per day and whatever cals needed to get into surplus, something like 4400 off the top of my head.

BW: I decided after that pathetic benching today that you can keep your 50 K ;)
 
Maybe you'll settle for a K hit instead. It's worth just the same but you get more.

Congrats on ploughing through, you sound beat up. Just dream of the holiday to come.
 
Thanks. Yep I was pretty worn down by the end of the workout. After my last situp I just laid there on the bench with eyes closed and hands on head lol

On a positive note the joints are feeling good (except for left elbow during heavy rows and chins). Not like after Korte volume when I had some aches and pains in my kneee. So hopefully it bodes well for the upcoming weeks.

Also, I'm thinking of doing some fronts for 1-3 reps on Weds, not sure yet.
 
Congrats on finishing the fun part ;)

I hit you with k too, but mine's only worth 1% of Sir BW's. What's with the four Krowns BW? Not happy with just two? Do you reckon you'll hit the million mark by Christmas?
 
I was going to ask whether you would be running the 3x intensity phase. I assumed you would be but your mention of Wednesday answers that.

I got an extra two crowns at 750,000. There's a slim chance of a million by the end of the year but I doubt it. That bookie event should pay out on Monday or Tuesday which will be a big boost.

I'm looking forward to the deload and intensity phase now. Have you checked your gym opening times? I'll be travelling North to visit the family on Saturday and probably staying until Tuesday or Wednesday so I'll be taking a mini-break from workouts. I hate that drive around the M25 and up the M1.

The gym has a kind of messed up start to the following week so I'm thinking of running a fresh 5x5 from the 10th. It'll be interesting to see what changes a year has made since that's when I started my first 5x5. I'd never deaded before; BB rows were just a memory and I was in a Smith for the rest with ANNTF squats, as Jim put them, probably fairly short of parallel too despite what I thought at the time.
 
anotherbutters said:
Congrats on finishing the fun part ;)

I hit you with k too, but mine's only worth 1% of Sir BW's. What's with the four Krowns BW? Not happy with just two? Do you reckon you'll hit the million mark by Christmas?
Click to expand...

Thanks AB, appreciate it :)

blut wump said:
I was going to ask whether you would be running the 3x intensity phase. I assumed you would be but your mention of Wednesday answers that.
Click to expand...

Ya know I said that without really knowing if I was going to run 2x or 3x. I know 2x is what MC2 has as the de facto standard and I ran that the 1st time with excellent results. But we'll see, I'll play it be ear as usual.

blut wump said:
I'm looking forward to the deload and intensity phase now. Have you checked your gym opening times? I'll be travelling North to visit the family on Saturday and probably staying until Tuesday or Wednesday so I'll be taking a mini-break from workouts. I hate that drive around the M25 and up the M1.
Click to expand...

Closed on Xmas and New Years only. Shouldn't be a problem, wife's outta town to visit relatives for a few days too :evil:

blut wump said:
The gym has a kind of messed up start to the following week so I'm thinking of running a fresh 5x5 from the 10th. It'll be interesting to see what changes a year has made since that's when I started my first 5x5. I'd never deaded before; BB rows were just a memory and I was in a Smith for the rest with ANNTF squats, as Jim put them, probably fairly short of parallel too despite what I thought at the time.
Click to expand...

I take it the injury is fully healed and heavy deads are on the menu? Now that'll be interesting since you've been doing GM's and box squats.
 
I've been doing rack pulls from a height where the bar starts out touching the middle of my knee-cap for silly weights with no problems. I did a couple of weeks [from the floor] of 8 sets of 3 at 315 and then 360 the following week and my back was fine at that. I've also been trying to pay more attention to the eccentric part of the lift.

I'm hoping I'll be just fine after all this time if not better than ever.

Edit:
the 8x3s were from the floor. The rack pulls have been up to 6 plates.
 
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Jim Ouini said:
Ya know I said that without really knowing if I was going to run 2x or 3x. I know 2x is what MC2 has as the de facto standard and I ran that the 1st time with excellent results. But we'll see, I'll play it be ear as usual.
Click to expand...

It's only the defacto because it's a no brainer and there aren't another set of hard records waiting for you so it runs autopilot. Give it a try if you haven't. The main key is that you have to guage your recovery (which new people can't) and make sure you are good to go after the first week or so. It's a fun way to run this program and in my mind really beneficial. You just have to be able to evaluate your needs which at this point should be second nature.
 
I just read the 2x 'pure deload'; I've never actually run this - last time I did the 2x week workouts I spread out intensity over 6 weeks instead of 4 due to illness, keeping the M-W-F workouts.

I think I will try it, then.

BTW, I had some questions but all answered on your site. Nice. :)
 
Erm, just to be clear, are you suggesting 2x pure deload or 3x intensity? I got mixed up since you mention 'auto-pilot' (2x) and then 'gauging recovery' (3x)...

I think 2x pure deload would be interesting since the intensities for me would be the same from week to week i.e, if I add 5lbs on bench and 10lbs on squat I'll hit my 3RM's in Weeks 8/9 anyway. But this way I get to see the effect of reduced frequency in addition to reduced volume, correct?

And actually BW and I had this discussion while you were gone, from what I've read you have 3 variables to play with - volume, frequency and intensity. Usually volume is slashed and intensity is kept high. What would be the effect if you slash everything, including intensity? Fitness would still remain, fatigue would dissipate and you're still better than when you started...any thoughts?
 
I was suggesting 3x but just because it's different. With the 2x you increase the weight but not specifically for records in another mesocycle structure - it's a no brainer because it's just a pure deload, do it until you are ready to roll again. The purpose for most guys here would be purely to deload and rebound before entering another loading phase. It's all kind of interrelated. I mean, you can structure this stuff however you want and stack mesocycles and planning back to back well beyond 2 blocks/periods. This is kind of what the 3x option is, two hard pushing mesocycles with a bit of a rest in between (not enough rest and you suffer through the 2nd).

You could certainly slash all variables to recover. The key is workload. That said, it's a lot more beneficial to make some progress and this is why you see the accumulation -> intensification stuff used so often. Kind of ladders together providing progress and recovery. Also, keep in mind that in a really hard loading period you might not see any progress and the goal is to realize this progress in the next phase - if you drop everything you leave that hanging.
 
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