How many of you are successful with the 5x5 program?

I know this has been beaten to death by now, and the only way i'm REALLY gonna find out for myself is if I try it... but I'm just curious as to how many of you guys are really doing this, and how much you like it, because I'm thinking of starting it.

I'm a big fan. Something that seems to get pushed under the rug is that no one who understands why it's a good program will tell you it's the end-all be-all program (I didn't respond to your poll because I don't feel that any of the options represented my opinion). The point of it is to educate. For example, dual-factor theory is pretty much unheard of in the BB'ing community. Also, the notion that a 1x/week split for individual muscle groups is a good idea gets squashed. Progressive overload is a big reason why this works. Then there's exercise selection- after a couple months of concentrating on the compound movements most will agree that they should be the mainstay of any program.
I'll link a post of madcow's that seems to get the idea across:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4643459&postcount=186

I think everyone who does weights should run the 5x5 or something similar in nature. It's an eye-opener in the ways Guinness5.0 mentions and it also shows new depths of fatigue and how to handle them. Most lifters have drifted into slight overtraining over a period of months. With the 5x5 you deliberately push yourself into that state over a period of four weeks.

Besides being a good reminder of the efficacy of the basic, compound movements, the 5x5 is a good introduction to dual-factor methods and can be upscaled to almost any level of experience and conditioning.

I ran the program twice plus one aborted run between them which I had to abort due to a knee injury. I'm currently running a different dual-factor program and will probably be using them on-and-off now for the rest of my lifting life. I'm sure I'll run the madcow5x5 again and equally sure that I'll rarely run it just as it was presented.

I started out on 5x5 and have revisited a couple of times. It's a solid program for increasing strength. I did needsize's version, and added 5lb each week to my compound lifts. This definitely made it easier to progress to heavier weights. I didn't get much hypertrophy out of it, but once I switched programs I could work at higher weights and my work capacity didn't seem to suffer. Then the hypertrophy gains started coming.

EXCELENT POLL ARTRIUS!

Learning the fundamentals behind the 5x5 has been monumental to me. My routine is slightly modified, but the values are equivalent.

musketeer said:

EXCELENT POLL ARTRIUS!

Learning the fundamentals behind the 5x5 has been monumental to me. My routine is slightly modified, but the values are equivalent.

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thanks

bump for more responses

Mr_Sinister said:

I started out on 5x5 and have revisited a couple of times. It's a solid program for increasing strength. I did needsize's version, and added 5lb each week to my compound lifts. This definitely made it easier to progress to heavier weights. I didn't get much hypertrophy out of it, but once I switched programs I could work at higher weights and my work capacity didn't seem to suffer. Then the hypertrophy gains started coming.

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sorry since this is a little O/T, but could you please post a link to needsize's version of 5x5. i would be interested to see how it compare's to madcow's version. thanks

RipStone said:

sorry since this is a little O/T, but could you please post a link to needsize's version of 5x5. i would be interested to see how it compare's to madcow's version. thanks

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Here is needsize's 5x5. The two versions are quite different.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=281085

I think I'd have to echo what's been said above. I gained strength and mass on the 5x5, but that's almost irrelevant compared to what it taught me about training.

It got me off the machines for good, showed me that I could hit the same muscle group more than once a week and taught me how to manipulate volume to control fatigue. I don't think it's the be all and end all simply because no program can be, but I feel like it's given me enough knowledge to be able to evaluate other programs and judge how successful they're likely to be for me.

Once I've finished what I'm doing now (single factor 5x5, progressing to dual factor), I'll probably switch between some of the other programs like Korte and Smolov, and come back to the 5x5 as a mainstay.

It's got thumbs up from me.

(I also don't think that any of the options reflect my opinion. It is a good program, but it's useful to run other programs too.)

well, I managed to drop my cycle doseage by quite a bit and still keep gaining the same amount of strength, so I would say that that says something about the program (I cut from 1,800mg down to 800mg).

I enjoy training with a 5x5 or hst based program. I don't really follow anyones set in stone routines though -- once you understand the theory behind them, you can customize to your hearts content. no that doesn't mean adding in concentration curls and cable crossovers.

my entire lifting with my version of 5x5 and/or HST is based around these lifts:

Flat bench
Incline Bench
Seated Military press (had to ditch OHP due to wrist problems)
Wieghted Chins
Dynamic Rows
Deadlifts
Squats
Standing Calve Raises
Barbell Curls
Pushdowns
Weighted ab work

I feel that anything else is second rate.

artrius said:

I know this has been beaten to death by now, and the only way i'm REALLY gonna find out for myself is if I try it... but I'm just curious as to how many of you guys are really doing this, and how much you like it, because I'm thinking of starting it.

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I had luck with it

view said:

well, I managed to drop my cycle doseage by quite a bit and still keep gaining the same amount of strength, so I would say that that says something about the program (I cut from 1,800mg down to 800mg).

I enjoy training with a 5x5 or hst based program. I don't really follow anyones set in stone routines though -- once you understand the theory behind them, you can customize to your hearts content. no that doesn't mean adding in concentration curls and cable crossovers.

my entire lifting with my version of 5x5 and/or HST is based around these lifts:

Flat bench
Incline Bench
Seated Military press (had to ditch OHP due to wrist problems)
Wieghted Chins
Dynamic Rows
Deadlifts
Squats
Standing Calve Raises
Barbell Curls
Pushdowns
Weighted ab work

I feel that anything else is second rate.

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Do you do HST differently than it's laid out - how so? Just curious always looking for new ideas.

I did a run at the 5X5 and i must say i like it as well..actually going to fully finish the 5x5 this time around and am starting on monday (reason i stopped was due to scheduling problems and gym closure) anyway i liked ..when i started the program i was a little histant on doing squats 3X a/wk but i had an in depth conversation with madcow and came to the conclusion of trying it out...great program..how many have done the 5X5 and gear? How did that work for you? Reason i ask is most on a cycle want to do the concentration curls, and machines and what not...so what do you think of being on a cycle on doing the 5x5?

cmdubs said:

Do you do HST differently than it's laid out - how so? Just curious always looking for new ideas.

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well are you refering to the sample chart they provide? I suppose I might do it a bit differently, but not a tonne. It is all about progressive overload, frequency, and strategic deconditioning.

I do it MWF and a routine might look like this:

Squats
Standing Calve raise
Inlcine Bench
Dips
Dynamic Row
Chins
Overhead press (before my wrist was hurting)
Rear delt Machine
BB Curl
Pushdowns

I would do 1 set while in the 15's, 2 sets in the 10's, then 3 sets in the 5's. Then I do one week of super heavy all out balls to the walls lifts. I'll do triple drop sets from very heavy weights, my 2-3rep max. Then after that week, its time for a week off to decondtion.

as you can see, my exercise selection really doesn't change much, just the manner in which I use them.

one thing you might notice, is that I don't feel that HST and deadlifts mix too well. same with oly lifting and HST (squats excluded). simply to taxing on the CNS to be doing any of those lifts 3x a week.

swordfish151 said:

I did a run at the 5X5 and i must say i like it as well..actually going to fully finish the 5x5 this time around and am starting on monday (reason i stopped was due to scheduling problems and gym closure) anyway i liked ..when i started the program i was a little histant on doing squats 3X a/wk but i had an in depth conversation with madcow and came to the conclusion of trying it out...great program..how many have done the 5X5 and gear? How did that work for you? Reason i ask is most on a cycle want to do the concentration curls, and machines and what not...so what do you think of being on a cycle on doing the 5x5?

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BionicBC did the 5x5 while on gear. You'll have to trawl through the main 5x5 thread to find his posts.

Madcow never really had much to say about mixing the program with a cycle except that you need to be careful about managing your pct not to leave yourself in a low-test environment at a time when you are loaded from the program whether that be at the mid-point or even at the end. I'd say it's a bad idea for someone either on their first cycle or on their first run of the 5x5 unless they're well-experienced with the other.

Blut Wump said:

I'd say it's a bad idea for someone either on their first cycle or on their first run of the 5x5 unless they're well-experienced with the other.

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Definitely. Too many variables/complications.

I agree that the 5x5 is a great way to get people on the road to understanding how to make progress.....it isn't the be all and end all.....but the theory behind it is.....add weight to the bar, get strong, get big. Drop sets and down sets and triple bomb blast sets will be the last thing on your mind once you focus on progressively increasing weight on selected main movements. The program teaches you to think for yourself and to evaluate a program for yourself. If you don't like 5x5, do 3x8 or 4x12 or 3x10 or 3x3, whatever, just be consistent and gradually up the weight, focus on big lifts and realize what a "foo foo" exercise is and why, although you get a 'pump' from them, they are an utter waste of time.

About gear, I ran 5x5 programs with gear in the past. You can push that much harder, gain that much faster, and recover that much quicker. You can ram up the workload more, you can add extras, and excessive soreness to the point of screwing up the routine is a non-issue. It is an enhancement, nothing more, nothing less. Instead of mon-wed-fri.....I'd train mon-tues-wed-fri-sat.....sat was for rowing, tricep and bicep work and calves.....tues was for snathes.....I'd flat bp on mon, ohp on tues, incline on wed, and do close grips and flat bp to 90% on fri.....if i did that now i'd over reach in week 1, lol....but with a little test and deca, my shoulder girdle thrived.....I'd back squat heavy mon, do oh squat tues, front sq and gms on wed, and back sq to 90% on fri.....again, I modified it, since my recovery abilities were that much greater, I could do more work in a week and thrive, thus progress faster......gear is gear, it certainly won't hurt your training, lol.

This was in college and I'd typically run 10 weeks of Testosterone Cypionate or Enanthate (400mg/week) and Deca-Durabolin (400mg/week).......The long lasting esters of test and the nandrolone allowed me to still 'feel it' for several weeks after my last shots, so I had flexibility with my deloading, I usually loaded 5 weeks, deloaded 1, loaded 4 weeks, deloaded 1, then came in after the last deload to try to PR on either singles or reps to failure.....then just trained light and low-workload for a good 5 or 6 weeks until my body was back to 'normal'.

I am not advising anyone to do this, lol....it is just a tale of my own experiences.....I did 4 of these cycles in my life, it was in the late-90's and the gear was human-grade, potent, and did what it was supposed to.....not like the crap guys use now, underground and under-dosed.....a gram a week of vet or mexican test for 4 weeks and still waiting for it to 'kick in', lol, I'd day you got ripped off....anyway, I am rambling and I'll stop now.

Many thanks for that post Biggt.

I am glad it was somewhat helpful. I never thought of gear as a means to 'get big' or 'get strong'. I think this way of thinking is responsible for so much of its misuse and abuse. I never thought in terms of taking something for 8 weeks, blowing up, stopping, then shrinking.

I always used it as a means to recover faster, much, much faster, and allow myself to do A LOT more work during my training cycle, to extend the training cycle. You can really ram up the poundages on the medium day and not worry about it effecting you on your next heavy day, on the 'light' day, sometimes I'd hit a few heavy doubles or singles on the front squat because I felt good and I didn't have to sweat it on Friday.

But to sum it up, I more or less "rode the gear" to keep gaining and gaining and gaining in the weight room, when normally I would have peaked, deloaded, and eventually hit a plateau.

Knowing more now than I did then, I'd probably run a 12-16 week cycle of a low dose of test, a low dose of deca, and a little equipoise if it was available. I feel the 12-16 weeks allows more time to just ride the recovery abilities and keep gaining steadily. You could , say, load 3/deload1 and do this 3 or 4 times one after the other. With say 200-400mg of test, 200-400mg of deca, and 100-200mg of eq, you won't 'explode' per say, but you will be able to train hard and long for a long period of time and recover and make gains, and your body will recomposition.....you are still depending on your sound training program, you are just enhancing its effectiveness and kind of prolonging the life of your gains, making them greater. I'd definitely recommend proper use of ancillaries and regular bloodwork with a 3-4 month cycle though.

I would NEVER do this, but just for conversation's sake, I have talked with people and learned that a lot of top, world-class level strength athletes stay on year round. It is not uncommon for guys to run 500-600mg of test a week all year, cycling different esters, and then upping it to 1-2 grams before a competition. That is not something I would do, then again, if it were my livlihood, I guess you'd have to ask me the same question then.

It brings to mind the expression: "train like you're on steroids because you are"


I note that both you and madcow share a modest approach to dosage. There's a hint of sanity to it.

Incorporating 5x5 was only successful in helping me regain lost strength on the flat bench. It was great for that though. Kept me real motivated having a clear goal each week, and seeing the progress. Especially when I was coming back much weaker. But then it got to a point where I hit a plateau in strength for a while, and my chest size wasnt increasing noticeable at all, so I went back to my old routine. The variety of rep ranges I use seems to work much better for me overall. Id still use the routine again to regain lost strength though. I also used it when I got stronger for a little something different. I ended up doing a 7x5 with 330 on flat bench, which was good for a change to keep things interesting. Overall I found it better for strength then size. But still I found my old routine to work much better for me in the end. 5x5 just helped to keep me motivated when coming back. Ill likely use it again to regain some of my lost strength though. Works well for a number of people so its definately worth a try. KILL THAT SHIT!!

I had good results but it's not the only program that works well. It was a nice change of pace for someone who hadn't changed his routine much in a long time.