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Knees

anthrax

anthrax

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I've not worked my legs for weeks (apart from some deads) because my knee hurts badly

Today I decided to try

Squatting, even with just an empty bar is a no-no

but, strangely enough, I was able to do some barbell step-up with a decent weight and my knees didn't bother me that much

How come ?
 
d3track said:
different ROM on the step-ups?
Click to expand...

I squat ass to the grass but even if I try to squat parallel it hurts

BB step-ups are performed with an angle of approximately 90 degrees (so they look like parallel)
 
How do you come up from a squat? If you go down into a squat position with just bodyweight and come back up agan do you come up with your weight on the balls of your feet or on your heels. I had a similar problem and decided that I was coming with my weight forward and that that was placing stress on my knees.

If the problem is similar to what I was experiencing then try to make an effort to hold your weight to the rear as you rise. If it doesn't make any difference then I can only wish you luck with it.
 
Anthrax said:
I squat ass to the grass but even if I try to squat parallel it hurts

BB step-ups are performed with an angle of approximately 90 degrees (so they look like parallel)
Click to expand...

could it be from the foot placement though?
in a step up its pretty much straight in front/under you
while in teh squat your feet are out to the side more

maybe that is enough difference to cause the stress to the joint?
 
Blut Wump said:
How do you come up from a squat? If you go down into a squat position with just bodyweight and come back up agan do you come up with your weight on the balls of your feet or on your heels. I had a similar problem and decided that I was coming with my weight forward and that that was placing stress on my knees.
Click to expand...

I think this happened to me last time I squatted. In trying to get ATF my weight shifted forward.

My right knee doesn't hurt or anything, it just feels 'funny'

I hpoe with a few days rest it goes away since I'm trying for a 1 x 3 max on Mon or Tue.
 
You made good points guys!

When I think about it, it's true that with step-ups my knee is above my foot and my feet are parallel

While, when deep squating (even though I try to keep the weight and push with the ball of my feet-hams)
- my knees have to extend over my feet
- my feet point outwards

but isn't it the *regular* form ?

The deeper you go the farther the knees need to extend in order to keep balance
 
Anthrax said:
You made good points guys!

When I think about it, it's true that with step-ups my knee is above my foot and my feet are parallel

While, when deep squating (even though I try to keep the weight and push with the ball of my feet-hams)
- my knees have to extend over my feet
- my feet point outwards

but isn't it the *regular* form ?

The deeper you go the farther the knees need to extend in order to keep balance
Click to expand...

i squat the same way
i'm just thinking that maybe thats the reason you can do the step ups and not the squats right now
i would maybe keep with the sttep ups until you can squat again, maybe it will help speed up the healing too.....
 
Anthrax said:
You made good points guys!

When I think about it, it's true that with step-ups my knee is above my foot and my feet are parallel

While, when deep squating (even though I try to keep the weight and push with the ball of my feet-hams)
- my knees have to extend over my feet
- my feet point outwards

but isn't it the *regular* form ?

The deeper you go the farther the knees need to extend in order to keep balance
Click to expand...
Feet pointing outwards might be part of the issue and you have to find a foot placement which helps but I also have my feet slightly flared and find that it helps.

With regard to trying to keep my weight back in the squat, I found it helped to think of going down as sitting back rather than sitting down. As you hit the bottom there's a feeling of 'settling in' as the weight is taken up with your hams and glutes. As you come back up try to feel your hams and glutes doing the initial work as you lift your head backwards and push with your heels.

Madcow has done a couple of good descriptions recently thinking of the joints as hinges. On post #6 in this thread there are links to one of madcow's posts and also to some articles which might be worth a read.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395934
 
When you do a step up...chances are GOOD that your shins are near completely vertical. If you are squatting FULL then chances are GOOD that your knees are coming WAYYYY forward when you go down.

BOX SQUAT for a few weeks. Wide stance (VERY WIDE), with a comfortable toe position and make darn sure that your shins are completely vertical!!!!

B True
 
b fold the truth said:
When you do a step up...chances are GOOD that your shins are near completely vertical. If you are squatting FULL then chances are GOOD that your knees are coming WAYYYY forward when you go down.

BOX SQUAT for a few weeks. Wide stance (VERY WIDE), with a comfortable toe position and make darn sure that your shins are completely vertical!!!!

B True
Click to expand...

Right!
My shins are vertical when doing BB step ups and at 45 degress at the bottom of the squat (with my knees forward my feet)

Good advice
Thx a lot B Fold
 
I've been planning to try box squats for a while too. I think this might have pushed me over the edge. I guess that would be with box-squatting just below parallel.

It's great to have so many seriously experienced people around here.
 
Blut Wump said:
I've been planning to try box squats for a while too. I think this might have pushed me over the edge. I guess that would be with box-squatting just below parallel.

It's great to have so many seriously experienced people around here.
Click to expand...

Give it a try and see if it works for you. Just come back and report...good or bad.

With knee problems...start HIGH and work your way down. Use Icy-Hot before and after your workout and do lots of light stretching and warming up before you even do a squat.

B True
 
when you go with a wider stance, push your knees out (another way to put it is to open your groin) as you are going down, and don't buckle your knees in when coming up. if your knees buckle in when you are rising, it can cause some problems with them
 
b fold the truth said:
When you do a step up...chances are GOOD that your shins are near completely vertical. If you are squatting FULL then chances are GOOD that your knees are coming WAYYYY forward when you go down.

BOX SQUAT for a few weeks. Wide stance (VERY WIDE), with a comfortable toe position and make darn sure that your shins are completely vertical!!!!

B True
Click to expand...

When squatting full I can keep my shins more vertical at lighter weight, but as I get to, say, my 3RM my weight shifts forward causing the knees to come forward as you describe.

I assume this is because my glutes/hams aren't strong enough...hence the recommendation to box squat? Does wide stance box squat strength transfer over pretty well to my regular shoulder width full squat?
 
Jim Ouini said:
When squatting full I can keep my shins more vertical at lighter weight, but as I get to, say, my 3RM my weight shifts forward causing the knees to come forward as you describe.

I assume this is because my glutes/hams aren't strong enough...hence the recommendation to box squat? Does wide stance box squat strength transfer over pretty well to my regular shoulder width full squat?
Click to expand...

I can't squat butt to the floor with my shins vertical to save my life with my own body weight. I can't imagine doing it with well over 500 pounds. The bar weight would shift WAYYYY back and one would fall over backwards.

Are you SURE that you are talking about the same thing that I am????

For me...wide stanced squats transfer to about everything but the OLY High Bar Full Squats do not transfer over to my box squat or my pling squat.

B True
 
b fold the truth said:
I can't squat butt to the floor with my shins vertical to save my life with my own body weight. I can't imagine doing it with well over 500 pounds. The bar weight would shift WAYYYY back and one would fall over backwards.

Are you SURE that you are talking about the same thing that I am????

For me...wide stanced squats transfer to about everything but the OLY High Bar Full Squats do not transfer over to my box squat or my pling squat.

B True
Click to expand...

I just squatted today and checked out my shins - I think I should've said 'more vertical'

The only way I could get my shins vertical ATF was if I held onto the squat rack with both hands ;)

Anyway, I think I may try the wide stance box squats, starting out high as you suggest.
 
I tried some box squats today. The easiest thing for me to sit on was pretty much at or, maybe, slightly above parallel. I felt a little tension in my knees and so widened my stance a little more and flared my feet a little more. I did 5x5 with 100Kg (225) after some warmup sets.

They definitely hit glutes and upper hams. They didn't feel particularly strange and I think I'll stick with them once a week for a while as a supplement to the ATF squats since there's good carry-over from box-squats to normal squats. I forgot to think about my shins being vertical so I've no idea whether they were. I'll try and bear that in mind for next time.

Thanks, again, b_fold.
 
Glad you were able to do something with them.

How WIDE is your stance? Mine is wider than collar to collar on a normal bar...and that isn't wide enough for someone 6'2" like myself.

B True
 
Now that's wide. I reckon I had my feet such that my ankles were placed a shade wider than my shoulders. I'll check next time how close that is to the collars. I'm just under 6'2'' but I'm not sure the squat rack will let me get that wide. I guess I'll have to step outside it.
 
I tried to do some box squats with shoulders wide, wide and extra wide stance and it was all painful :(

Life sucks :wilted:
 
Have you tried wearing a daily support? Get one of those tubular elastic supports from the chemist and wear it on a daily basis for a while. That worked for me once a long while back. It's almost certainly best to stay away from exercises which hurt.

If you try glucosamine or chondroitin, you have to give it about a month before deciding whether it works. The body has to load up on it before it makes a difference.
 
MsBeverlyHills said:
just a suggestion for joint/ knee pain- take glucosamine.
Click to expand...

Glucosamine + chondroitine + MSM + wathever will (certainly) help

But it will *only* suppress the inflammation/pain not the underlying problem (improper form, tendon overuse, accumulatred scar tissues, etc)
 
Anthrax said:
I tried to do some box squats with shoulders wide, wide and extra wide stance and it was all painful :(

Life sucks :wilted:
Click to expand...

Are you using Icy-Hot or muscle rubs?
Warming up with HIGH reps on the leg ext machine first?
Stretching your back, hams, quads, etc...?
Taking Aleve or Ibuprofen pre workout?
Wearing flat soled shoes?

B True
 
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