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Shut It.........

  • Thread starter Thread starter The Shadow
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The Shadow

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SHadow's Unified TraIning Theory....or, as I prefer....SHUT IT.


Ever wondered why a marathon runner LOOKS like a marathon runner??


What about why a sprinter has "Sprinters" thighs?



...or


....why is it that champion plers continure to break World Record after WR WITHOUT going up a weight class??




....how about this one - ever wondered WHY some bodyparts like ABS and CALVES and FOREARMS seem to grow better with a higher rep range??







Wanna know the REAL secret to training??







TUT


Time
Under
Tension



.....that is, how many seconds are your muscles actually uner a "load" when lifting??




Ok - GYM LORE:



8-10 reps are best for size and 4-6 are best for strength.



Well......TUT confirms the gym lore.

a typical rep cadence for a bber is a 2 second concentric(contraction) and a 4 second eccentric(negative)....thats 6 seconds per rep.


on a rep sceme of 8-10 reps - that gives a 48-60 second TUT for that particular set.


on a rep scheme of 4-6 - we have a 24-36 second TUT load.




....so, on an emperical basis, it looks like TUT fits the gym lore so to speak.






ok - back to the marathoners.........


what is THEIR TUT??



......Its MASSIVE.........its so large that it causes MASSIVE overtraining and the resulting OVERTONUS in the muscles - ie that saggy nasty runners ass and a physique that is flatter than road-kill.





back to the sprinters - their TUT......it places them in the "size" zone.......ergo - their thighs resenble tree trunks.








now - what about "stubborn" bodyparts?





What do abs, Calves, and Forearma have in common?


...a SHORT STROKE DISTANCE......



....so a typical trainer will fly thru the reps which DRASTICALLY lowers the TUT......that knocks them out of the growth zone and puts them(sometime barely) into the strength zone.....




we all know someone who has freakishly strong calves, and yet they are under-developed when following a typical 8-10 rep range.














...so - think it over.




Ask questions.
 
Very Interesting...

So how do Super sets play into this..
 
Frisky said:
Very Interesting...

So how do Super sets play into this..
Click to expand...


Super sets allow you to get more "failure" reps than straight sets.......the smalll, few second break between stes helps the muscles recoup a bit
 
So when we lift weights (any... legs, chest, calves, bi's tri's...) we should be counting 24 to 36 seconds?
 
alycat said:
So when we lift weights (any... legs, chest, calves, bi's tri's...) we should be counting 24 to 36 seconds?
Click to expand...


If STRENGTH is primary goal


for SIZE - 48-60.





Another thing to consider - pyramids ahve always been looked upon as the best blen of size and strength....


why??



You are in both zones.
 
pyramids ahve always been looked upon as the best blen of size and strength....

And by this you mean add weight for each set?
 
alycat said:
pyramids ahve always been looked upon as the best blen of size and strength....

And by this you mean add weight for each set?
Click to expand...



YES.......keep the tempo the same......by manipulating the weight...the rep range drops from "endurance" to "pure strength".....best of all worlds
 
to sum it up ...

Pyramid of 4 sets, upping the weight each set....
now for each set how many reps, are we counting 48-60sec or going to failure?
 
alycat said:
to sum it up ...

Pyramid of 4 sets, upping the weight each set....
now for each set how many reps, are we counting 48-60sec or going to failure?
Click to expand...


on a standard rep tempo- each rep is 6 seconds.......


so in the 48-60 bracket - it would be 8-10 reps.......have someone time your reps - seriously - we overestimate our TUT
 
Alright....
4 set
8-10 reps each (48-60sec total)
6 second each rep
up the weight each new set
with a 60 sec rest in between sets.

come on Shadow, tell me I got it right this time? :qt:

P.S. is V8 juice alright to have in the place of a veggies?
 
Last edited:
alycat said:
Alright....
4 set
8-10 reps each (48-60sec total)
6 second each rep
up the weight each new set
with a 60 sec rest in between sets.

come on Shadow, tell me I got it right this time? :qt:

P.S. is V8 juice alright to have in the place of a veggies?
Click to expand...



yep.....just rememer that uppring the weight will drop the reps.....just keep the 6 second deal.....



V8 is loaded with salt......just kep an eye on the cals in it,..should be fine
 
The Shadow said:
yep.....just rememer that uppring the weight will drop the reps.....just keep the 6 second deal.....

so if by the 3rd and 4th set I can't reach 8-19 (48-60sec)... that's cool.
just nice and slow with my reps... gotchia! Going to try it now... yee haa that makes sense! but then again you always do heheheh



V8 is loaded with salt......just kep an eye on the cals in it,..should be fine
Click to expand...
V8 has 50 cals
 
RottenWillow said:
And what say you sir regarding fiber type and it's relationship with TUT?
Click to expand...


....fits pretty well.


Everyone is a mix of fiber types.......pyramiding weight up and dropping reps hits all fiber types.


thte question goes back to plers......they typically train fast twitch, "explosive" fibers......as a result...most plers will reacha plateau where they will not go up a weight class......



imo - its because their TUT is too low for size gains.....
 
The Shadow said:
dont count REPS......count SECONDS....
Click to expand...


HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!


IT ALL JUST MADE SENSE!!!


Dude, if you weren't a dude, i would plant a sloppy one on ya!!!

:rainbow:


er... sorry...


SO... what i meant but IT ALL MAKES SENCE is that Inga had me go though a typical strength week, then a pretty hard core standard BB week and TIMED ME ON EVERYTHING.. then applied that to our fast rep/quick circuit training for fiber endurance AND mass building... the TIMES under tension are close to or Exactly the same. The target reps are not 8-10 but usually 20-25 and in some cases as high as 40, depending on the musclegroup...

The combined size, endurance and fat burning has been (at least for me) really quite incredible... perfect? by no means, but....


IT MAKES SENCE TO ME NOW!!!!





Thank you sir, thank you VERY much.





:artist:
 
ChefWide said:
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!


IT ALL JUST MADE SENSE!!!


Dude, if you weren't a dude, i would plant a sloppy one on ya!!!

:rainbow:


er... sorry...


SO... what i meant but IT ALL MAKES SENCE is that Inga had me go though a typical strength week, then a pretty hard core standard BB week and TIMED ME ON EVERYTHING.. then applied that to our fast rep/quick circuit training for fiber endurance AND mass building... the TIMES under tension are close to or Exactly the same. The target reps are not 8-10 but usually 20-25 and in some cases as high as 40, depending on the musclegroup...

The combined size, endurance and fat burning has been (at least for me) really quite incredible... perfect? by no means, but....


IT MAKES SENCE TO ME NOW!!!!





Thank you sir, thank you VERY much.





:artist:
Click to expand...


...its just my personal views on training....TUT kinda ties everything together...so - HOLISTIC training would hit all possible rep ranges as you have been doing...its ONE reason(the other being your drive to improve) why your progress ahs been so amazing.



The ladies on the Project haave made sizzling gains using the TUT idea as well...look at the Treilin 2005 log for her last post on her stats, weight and bf
 
From what I have read, the





























From what I have read, Type 2 (fast-twitch) muscle fibers respond to ~40sec TUT with heavy weight, lower reps (6-8), and higher numbers of sets. Type 1 (slow-twitch) muscle fibers are endurance fibers and respond to a longer TUT with higher reps and a lower number of sets. Charles Poliquin has a lot of information on this.
 
pharmher said:
From what I have read, the





























From what I have read, Type 2 (fast-twitch) muscle fibers respond to ~40sec TUT with heavy weight, lower reps (6-8), and higher numbers of sets. Type 1 (slow-twitch) muscle fibers are endurance fibers and respond to a longer TUT with higher reps and a lower number of sets. Charles Poliquin has a lot of information on this.
Click to expand...


yep..


Strength - 20-40
size 40-60
endurance 60+
 
Can you recap on the abs, calves and forearm part? These muscles recover quicker so they should be trained..............
 
The Shadow said:
yep..


Strength - 20-40
size 40-60
endurance 60+
Click to expand...


Shadow-i'm so extremely sorry to ask repetitive questions but when you say 40-60 for size (and I know that women can't generally BULK up) would that mean if I'm doing 40-60 TUT that's cutting me up and defining my body? That's what I want but I want to be sure i'm in the right range. I'm noticing my strength is increasing so I'm just double checking. Thanks!!
 
there will be some overlap...notice in my programs, we alternate TUT..so my chicks get a little of all of it.

the diet is defining you - not the weights
 
I feel TUT does play a role, not the only role, but another piece of the puzzle in training. Understand, I am coming from the powerlifter standpoint as it is what I am.

The reason that powerlifters train in low reps is not for maximum hypertrophy, but for maximum central nervous systemm recruitment. It is a different type of muscular growth. The density of the fibers get thicker where in bodybuilding, TUT is responsible for more sarcoplasmic (cell stuff) growth. The sarcoplasmic growth does make you bigger, but not neccessarily stronger, where the fibers getting thicker leads to more strength.

I have always felt, like yourself that TUT does play a role. This is why it would seem that madcows 5x5 training works so well. It allows enough time under tension to enocourage sarcoplasmic growth, but also allows a high enough weight to encourage myofibral growth and more strength.

When the object is to get stronger, there are actually 3 specific ways to do this. Check out Vladimir Zatsiorksky's "The Science and Practice of Strength Training" for more stuff on this:

1. Get faster. Increasing force production with a submaximal weight will get you stronger.
2. More CNS firing and an increase of muscle recruitment. Basically, it training your cns to fire all your fibers at one time.
3. Hypertrophy. You do a set, Like shadow was talking about earlier, take a short rest and do another set. This allows for more muscular recruitment of typeI and type II fibers..(I won't get into different subclasses of fibers).

On a side note, I have never seen a powerlifter without a lot of muscle mass. The only reason that they may not is they don't want to, so they can stay in their same weight class.

I guess I only wanted to show another side of the TUT debate. Strong does not mean mean big, but big does not equal strong. Basically, you have to decide what it is that you want to do. IF you are a sprinter, you have to look at different strengths like starting-strength, speed-strength, acceleration, strength-endurance and a host of other.....I don't necessarily feel that it is only TUT that contributes to their muscluar physique.

The energy systems also have to be looked at. If you are looking at the marathon runner/sprinter example again......a marathon runner uses the o2/lactic acid system of regenerating atp and also muscle mass is decreased due to the body needed to breakdown protein in the body for carbs (prot can be broken down into carbs btw) and also the body forming to the requirements that the body is put under. It is not optimal for a marathon runner to have a lot of muscle mass.

Weight training and sprinting utilize the gylcogen and creatine phosphate energy system predominantly (all energy systems are utilized in some way or another and to different degrees.)

Shadow, I agree that TUT does play an important role, but I would argue that it is just another part in the equation of strength and size.
 
curgeo said:
I feel TUT does play a role, not the only role, but another piece of the puzzle in training. Understand, I am coming from the powerlifter standpoint as it is what I am.

The reason that powerlifters train in low reps is not for maximum hypertrophy, but for maximum central nervous systemm recruitment. It is a different type of muscular growth. The density of the fibers get thicker where in bodybuilding, TUT is responsible for more sarcoplasmic (cell stuff) growth. The sarcoplasmic growth does make you bigger, but not neccessarily stronger, where the fibers getting thicker leads to more strength.

I have always felt, like yourself that TUT does play a role. This is why it would seem that madcows 5x5 training works so well. It allows enough time under tension to enocourage sarcoplasmic growth, but also allows a high enough weight to encourage myofibral growth and more strength.

When the object is to get stronger, there are actually 3 specific ways to do this. Check out Vladimir Zatsiorksky's "The Science and Practice of Strength Training" for more stuff on this:

1. Get faster. Increasing force production with a submaximal weight will get you stronger.
2. More CNS firing and an increase of muscle recruitment. Basically, it training your cns to fire all your fibers at one time.
3. Hypertrophy. You do a set, Like shadow was talking about earlier, take a short rest and do another set. This allows for more muscular recruitment of typeI and type II fibers..(I won't get into different subclasses of fibers).

On a side note, I have never seen a powerlifter without a lot of muscle mass. The only reason that they may not is they don't want to, so they can stay in their same weight class.

I guess I only wanted to show another side of the TUT debate. Strong does not mean mean big, but big does not equal strong. Basically, you have to decide what it is that you want to do. IF you are a sprinter, you have to look at different strengths like starting-strength, speed-strength, acceleration, strength-endurance and a host of other.....I don't necessarily feel that it is only TUT that contributes to their muscluar physique.

The energy systems also have to be looked at. If you are looking at the marathon runner/sprinter example again......a marathon runner uses the o2/lactic acid system of regenerating atp and also muscle mass is decreased due to the body needed to breakdown protein in the body for carbs (prot can be broken down into carbs btw) and also the body forming to the requirements that the body is put under. It is not optimal for a marathon runner to have a lot of muscle mass.

Weight training and sprinting utilize the gylcogen and creatine phosphate energy system predominantly (all energy systems are utilized in some way or another and to different degrees.)

Shadow, I agree that TUT does play an important role, but I would argue that it is just another part in the equation of strength and size.
Click to expand...
Hmmm......


Well.....why do prlfers get stronger and stronger atthe elite level without gaining an appreciable amount of muscle??


B/c they train primarily for strength.


Why do bbers gain insane amounts of LBM, but do not gain the strength that "should" come hand in hand?

B/c they train for size.


Its more important than anyone realizes imo
 
Those of us residing in the "not fully tarded" section of EF, I'm confused. (shocker huh?)

Exactly how does this figure into the beginners workout?

I try to hold TUT for at least a 4 count on certain exercises using the one one-thousand, two one-thousand method of counting....... but is this for any and every exercise?

I'm sure that TUT is part of the reason my muscles fatigue so quickly during a workout.

If it's abs I try to hold it as long as I can on each rep cuz I don't care if they hurt.
 
Which is basically what I said.....that is why I stressed the 3 principles of strength by Zatsiorsky.

What I am saying is that it is only one part of the hypertrophy equation. My outlook, and again this is my opinion, is you have to have proper time under tension, but you also have to have sufficient weight for strength gain. Charles Poliquin popularized the German Volume Training and also rep cadence 10 years ago. Like I said, it is important, but not the only thing.

If I take a weight that is 50 percent of my 1rm and keep doing reps for 40 sec, does that mean I am going to get more size? My opinion is that it will only increase hypertrophy if you are using an untrained athlete. If however you use a person that has been training for a while, it will not work because there will be no forced adaptation.

Tom Platz and fred Hatfield talk about in their ISSA training manual (which I am not certified under) that you have to train in the 65 to 85 percent range in order to train for hypertrophy....if you train with less, you get no forced adaptation and if you train over that, you don't allow enough TUT for hypertrophy....only strength.

Like I said Shadow, I am not debating that TUT is not important for hypertrophy, but you also have to take in account weight as well as what particular strength you are training for, if not just hypertrophy.
 
Que, I think TUT is great for you right now. Keep doing what you are doing as long as you are making progress. When progress stales, then we can see what is the problem in your log and make adjustments.
 
curgeo said:
I feel TUT does play a role, not the only role, but another piece of the puzzle in training. Understand, I am coming from the powerlifter standpoint as it is what I am.

The reason that powerlifters train in low reps is not for maximum hypertrophy, but for maximum central nervous systemm recruitment. It is a different type of muscular growth. The density of the fibers get thicker where in bodybuilding, TUT is responsible for more sarcoplasmic (cell stuff) growth. The sarcoplasmic growth does make you bigger, but not neccessarily stronger, where the fibers getting thicker leads to more strength.

I have always felt, like yourself that TUT does play a role. This is why it would seem that madcows 5x5 training works so well. It allows enough time under tension to enocourage sarcoplasmic growth, but also allows a high enough weight to encourage myofibral growth and more strength.

When the object is to get stronger, there are actually 3 specific ways to do this. Check out Vladimir Zatsiorksky's "The Science and Practice of Strength Training" for more stuff on this:

1. Get faster. Increasing force production with a submaximal weight will get you stronger.
2. More CNS firing and an increase of muscle recruitment. Basically, it training your cns to fire all your fibers at one time.
3. Hypertrophy. You do a set, Like shadow was talking about earlier, take a short rest and do another set. This allows for more muscular recruitment of typeI and type II fibers..(I won't get into different subclasses of fibers).

On a side note, I have never seen a powerlifter without a lot of muscle mass. The only reason that they may not is they don't want to, so they can stay in their same weight class.

I guess I only wanted to show another side of the TUT debate. Strong does not mean mean big, but big does not equal strong. Basically, you have to decide what it is that you want to do. IF you are a sprinter, you have to look at different strengths like starting-strength, speed-strength, acceleration, strength-endurance and a host of other.....I don't necessarily feel that it is only TUT that contributes to their muscluar physique.

The energy systems also have to be looked at. If you are looking at the marathon runner/sprinter example again......a marathon runner uses the o2/lactic acid system of regenerating atp and also muscle mass is decreased due to the body needed to breakdown protein in the body for carbs (prot can be broken down into carbs btw) and also the body forming to the requirements that the body is put under. It is not optimal for a marathon runner to have a lot of muscle mass.

Weight training and sprinting utilize the gylcogen and creatine phosphate energy system predominantly (all energy systems are utilized in some way or another and to different degrees.)

Shadow, I agree that TUT does play an important role, but I would argue that it is just another part in the equation of strength and size.
Click to expand...
CG, I know this is old, but holy hell dude -- I :heart: you. So glad to call you my friend!

I'm impressed that you KNOW that! I learned all that in biochemistry in college, but holy hell... you RETAIN.

Great post. Great leverage. :D And thanks for the replies about what us "beginners" should make of all the information (LOL @ "myofibrils" and "sarcoplasmic growth" -- you are AWESOME!)
 
the old plting angle sort of gets busted by doing "speed reps" sets of 3 reps at TREMENDOUSLY low %of 1rm.


Why do you get stronger by doing them??


bc the tut is appropriate for strength....regardless of the % of the 1rm.
 
and yeah,......big bump

I had 6 folks asking about tut this week on threads and in pms
 
Are you stating that this is the science behind why all this happens or a simple way to go about understanding?

This theory does correlate with what realy happens, but for different reasons
 
NJL52 said:
Are you stating that this is the science behind why all this happens or a simple way to go about understanding?

This theory does correlate with what realy happens, but for different reasons
Click to expand...



LOL


......post up why you think it correlates but isnt scientifically based.
 
The Shadow said:
LOL


......post up why you think it correlates but isnt scientifically based.
Click to expand...

I'm no scientist so I can't actually explain all the intricate little differences involved in the metabolic processes and the slow/fast/faster twitch fiber science, but I can't point out assumptions that arn't accurate:

8-10 reps are best for size and 4-6 are best for strength.

Well......TUT confirms the gym lore.

a typical rep cadence for a bber is a 2 second concentric(contraction) and a 4 second eccentric(negative)....thats 6 seconds per rep.

on a rep sceme of 8-10 reps - that gives a 48-60 second TUT for that particular set.

on a rep scheme of 4-6 - we have a 24-36 second TUT load.
Click to expand...

That's a huge generalization. First, 1-2 are strength, 3-6 are power. Second, you are assuming every workout and every trainee is 2/4, which is far from true. And you are assuming that the concentric and the eccentric phases provide the same results, which isn't true.

Think power cleans. A power clean is done with a 1 second up phase and, in some cases(as is mine), no down phase as the weight is dropped. So according to this theory I would need to do 60 reps in order to amass any size, or 36 reps to gain power.

Granted cleans could be an exclusion:

Bench press. I, as do many football players, use explosive movements with my bench. Down phase is nowhere near 4 seconds, probably 1.5-2 and up phase is also probably 1-1.5.

So TUT does correlate to good size, strenght, power growths, but it isn't the only answer. Your TUT explanation would work, but TUT isn't WHY it happens.
 
Coleman & Cutler do reps, 15-30 at times, to insure proper TUT. and they are as every bit as powerful as any PL'er....
 
I was asking for scientific angles on why its incorrect, when there are hundreds that confirm the rep intervals and their hypertrophy/strength intervals.

you might want to look over what you posted as the bench example actually proves my point....


Lets say you rep interval, as you posted it 4 seconds.....


do that to on each rep and fail at 4 reps - thats 16 seconds per SET......that is in the "strength" interval....just as you mentioned.

Do the 4 second rep and fail at 12 reps....thats 48 seconds...thats a hypertrophy range.


Dont JUST look at the the individual REP time......the SET time is what is important.
 
HumanTarget said:
Coleman & Cutler do reps, 15-30 at times, to insure proper TUT. and they are as every bit as powerful as any PL'er....
Click to expand...

Coleman used to be a pler....so that is the base for his strength.

Both phase train to add specific strength training.....so its neither here nor there.
 
HumanTarget said:
unsubscribed. lol.
Click to expand...


Liar!!!


You know you are my 07 E-stalker.



You do have a point that might deserve its own thread.
 
The Shadow said:
Liar!!!


You know you are my 07 E-stalker.



You do have a point that might deserve its own thread.
Click to expand...
it's just too complicated, especially for someone like me who merely dabbles. i can only give from what i've experienced & wouldn't want to mislead or dissuade someone with goals that are most likely far different from mine.
 
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