Lets open this discussion about legal alternatives to Steroids.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 13, 2004

Lets open this discussion about legal alternatives to Steroids.

Every time somebody brings up the word “proHormone” or “ProSteroid” guys will always say “its not better than the real thing”…

Just what is the real thing?

All of the steroids we use today were created 40-60 years ago.
This wonderful hormone called “Testosterone” has lent itself to be synthesized and altered into many different hormones that would otherwise not appear in nature. During the mid 90s due to a loophole in the law companies began to put out new hormones that where not in the list of banned substances from the Bush administration of 1990… The main problems with these first pro hormones were lack of absorption via oral delivery. The early andros just didn’t absorb well and as much as 90% of the product would be destroyed before it reached the blood stream…

Enter Methyl!

Taking a page out of illegal steroids cook book, companies began to add a Methyl to their prohormones. As you all know Methyl hormones like Dianabol, Winstrol, Anavar, and Anadrol have been in use for ages!... the Methylation helps theses hormones make it thru digestion and into our blood streams. Of methylated hormones ingested less than 5% is lost, the other 95% makes into the blood stream untouched!

Over the past couple of years a whole new family of Legal hormones has been created. These are not the Andros of the mid 90s but rather sophisticated engineered designer hormones. Some companies even started adding Ester chains to their hormones and selling them packaged in Sterile solutions that can be injectd. Due to the laws of our land, these companies must market their products as being for “Oral use” however they package their products in bottles that have a rubber stopper perfect for using a needle to draw the hormones and sterile solution containing BA/EA for sterility and suspension purposes.

Althought guys will always say “it is not as good as the real thing” I think they have a skewed view of these legal steroids… They are just as good as “the real thing”, in fact they are not imitation steroids, they are just different steroids…
I’m at a point in my life where taking the risk of receiving packages with illegal contents or having possession of them in my home is not really worth the risk.. I have a son and a career on the fast track! getting arrested right now would bring all of that to a screeching hault…
I’m looking for legal alternatives to achieving my goals, even if the progress is a bit slower, or even if I spend a little more money on creatine and other legal supps… Not going to jail and Not having to pay $everal grand to fight a case in court make it all worth it in the end.

I have tried a few pro hormones and I’m going to name a couple that I was really impressed with.

17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone :
this is really a stand out in everything I have used. This hormone is Methylated so it is easily absorbed and almost nothing is lost during digestion. 13 times more ANABOLIC and 3 times more ANDROGENIC then testosterone!
I have a couple of our consultation clients on this stuff and the results have been phenomenal. One of these guys lives in So Cali and 17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone
is now classified as a Schedule C-III steroid in three states: California, Montana and Nevada. I know, this is unbelievable and CRAZY, but it's the law. So, if your shipping address is one of the above mentioned three states, most companies can not ship to you.

Of course, there are people who have friends in the other 47 states that it's totally legal to have it shipped to them and then their friends work out some kind of shipping for them. Anyway, we are NOT condoning any law breaking. Just reporting back some customer feedback.

There is an injectable version in the works ( HydroxyNandrolone Decanoate) Just how Equipoise is a Esterified non-Methylated version of dianabol, so is HydroxyNandrolone Decanoate to 17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone.

The other satnd out products I have tried is:

4-Hydroxy Testosterone Decanoate: Now this is a pretty cool fucking product… it is as Anabolic and Adrogenic as regular testosterone, but since they tweaked the hormone a bit it will not convert to either Estrogen OR DHT…

In fact, pharmaceutical giant Searle, filed a patent on how to manufacture this modified form of testosterone back in 1956. But luckily for us (and YOU), they never released the hormone commercially and hence, why we are able to as an OTC "supplement".

As stated above, 4-Hydroxy Testosterone Decanoate cannot convert to estrogen. But as another benefit, but it will convert to the powerful "suicide" aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (better known as Formestane).

I have used these two products on myself and have some consultation clients that wanted to try a legal option to Steroids… This stuff has worked great for them.

I hope some of this info helps.

doublebicep · Aug 13, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
Lets open this discussion about legal alternatives to Steroids.

Every time somebody brings up the word “proHormone” or “ProSteroid” guys will always say “its not better than the real thing”…

Just what is the real thing?

All of the steroids we use today were created 40-60 years ago.
This wonderful hormone called “Testosterone” has lent itself to be synthesized and altered into many different hormones that would otherwise not appear in nature. During the mid 90s due to a loophole in the law companies began to put out new hormones that where not in the list of banned substances from the Bush administration of 1990… The main problems with these first pro hormones were lack of absorption via oral delivery. The early andros just didn’t absorb well and as much as 90% of the product would be destroyed before it reached the blood stream…

Enter Methyl!

Taking a page out of illegal steroids cook book, companies began to add a Methyl to their prohormones. As you all know Methyl hormones like Dianabol, Winstrol, Anavar, and Anadrol have been in use for ages!... the Methylation helps theses hormones make it thru digestion and into our blood streams. Of methylated hormones ingested less than 5% is lost, the other 95% makes into the blood stream untouched!

Over the past couple of years a whole new family of Legal hormones has been created. These are not the Andros of the mid 90s but rather sophisticated engineered designer hormones. Some companies even started adding Ester chains to their hormones and selling them packaged in Sterile solutions that can be injectd. Due to the laws of our land, these companies must market their products as being for “Oral use” however they package their products in bottles that have a rubber stopper perfect for using a needle to draw the hormones and sterile solution containing BA/EA for sterility and suspension purposes.

Althought guys will always say “it is not as good as the real thing” I think they have a skewed view of these legal steroids… They are just as good as “the real thing”, in fact they are not imitation steroids, they are just different steroids…
I’m at a point in my life where taking the risk of receiving packages with illegal contents or having possession of them in my home is not really worth the risk.. I have a son and a career on the fast track! getting arrested right now would bring all of that to a screeching hault…
I’m looking for legal alternatives to achieving my goals, even if the progress is a bit slower, or even if I spend a little more money on creatine and other legal supps… Not going to jail and Not having to pay $everal grand to fight a case in court make it all worth it in the end.

I have tried a few pro hormones and I’m going to name a couple that I was really impressed with.

17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone :
this is really a stand out in everything I have used. This hormone is Methylated so it is easily absorbed and almost nothing is lost during digestion. 13 times more ANABOLIC and 3 times more ANDROGENIC then testosterone!
I have a couple of our consultation clients on this stuff and the results have been phenomenal. One of these guys lives in So Cali and 17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone
is now classified as a Schedule C-III steroid in three states: California, Montana and Nevada. I know, this is unbelievable and CRAZY, but it's the law. So, if your shipping address is one of the above mentioned three states, most companies can not ship to you.

Of course, there are people who have friends in the other 47 states that it's totally legal to have it shipped to them and then their friends work out some kind of shipping for them. Anyway, we are NOT condoning any law breaking. Just reporting back some customer feedback.

There is an injectable version in the works ( HydroxyNandrolone Decanoate) Just how Equipoise is a Esterified non-Methylated version of dianabol, so is HydroxyNandrolone Decanoate to 17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone.

The other satnd out products I have tried is:

4-Hydroxy Testosterone Decanoate: Now this is a pretty cool fucking product… it is as Anabolic and Adrogenic as regular testosterone, but since they tweaked the hormone a bit it will not convert to either Estrogen OR DHT…

In fact, pharmaceutical giant Searle, filed a patent on how to manufacture this modified form of testosterone back in 1956. But luckily for us (and YOU), they never released the hormone commercially and hence, why we are able to as an OTC "supplement".

As stated above, 4-Hydroxy Testosterone Decanoate cannot convert to estrogen. But as another benefit, but it will convert to the powerful "suicide" aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (better known as Formestane).

I have used these two products on myself and have some consultation clients that wanted to try a legal option to Steroids… This stuff has worked great for them.

I hope some of this info helps.

Interesting topic! I have never tried any of these legal alternatives. I would like to hear more from those who have.

Are the HM.Gear products you mentions injectable?

Eventhough you have a boat load of karma...karma to you Big Rick Rock!

Big Rick Rock · Aug 13, 2004

doublebicep said:
Interesting topic! I have never tried any of these legal alternatives. I would like to hear more from those who have.

Are the HM.Gear products you mentions injectable?

Eventhough you have a boat load of karma...karma to you Big Rick Rock!

Their stuff is made in the largest compounding pharmacy in the USA... It is soluted and packaged steril.

The bottle are pretty cool, they have the regula twist off cap but the cap has a rubber stopper on it. You never have to take the security tape off the neck of the bottle, just put the pin right into the rubber.

SlimJim300 · Aug 13, 2004

Excellent post, thank you.

Becoming · Aug 13, 2004

First off - what happened to the thread that was down in chat?

Mysteriously disappeared I think...

**************************************************
For all of you who don't already know - Its NOT better than the real thing...

I am NOT saying that these products will not have an effect - they most likely WILL - but what that effect is is totally UNKNOWN...

Making selectively androgenic/anabolic hormones is not as easy as putting in or taking out a methyl or a hydroxl group at random... and you CANNOT tell what effect it will have by THINKING about it, no matter how much experience you have.... exact effects require EXTENSIVE testing to deduce...

In binding receptors, hormones have VERY specific binding pattern and attraction to the receptor... One thing is for sure, a similar molecule absolutely WILL NOT bind in the exact same way to the intended receptor...

If they bind at all, there are several possibilities....
a) they could hyperactivate the receptor
b) they could activate the receptor to a lower than normal level
c) they could inhibit the receptor
d) they may permanently or temporarily render the receptor useless through a variety of mechanisms
e) they may bind normally (the rarest)

Also note that they may modify the balance of anabolic/androgenic activation effects as compared to the parent drug... (ie they may give results very UNLIKE the parent drug)

A majority of these products are COMPLETELY untested... some of them tout small studies done by labs which may or may not exist. If the study was done at all, why would you believe someone that most likely recieves payment for positive results?

If you want to find REAL and RELIABLE studies, look here http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

You are free to do what you wish, but I would rather use a product that is at least tested in humans or animals in a REAL scientific study which has undergone peer review... (available via the link above) The recognized common steroid products (which are illegal) are also highly researched and both short and long term effects are well documented...

God knows what half of these are doing to you internally ("it is legal - why bother with a blood test!"

), or LONG TERM (no real studies have been done on most, not even in animals, much less long term HUMAN studies....)

If I was going to use a product, it would be a well-documented medically approved one....

Legitimate scientific programs have looked into developing effective products that are more effective than what we already have through very similar means (ie, making small modifications). How do you think they came up with DBOL back in the day? If they found something effective, and relatively safe they TESTED it and USED it... Many of the combos that are being touted as NEW have most likely been tested (some are actually mentioned in old studies) and left in the trash somewhere for most likely good reasons...

BTW reputable non-profit oriented real research labs are STILL looking into these products... they are called SARMs (Selective androgen receptor modulators) here are some studies... Products which you will see in the next 10 years are being researched today.... I hope your receptors (and YOU) are around to see them....

1: Bohl CE, Chang C, Mohler ML, Chen J, Miller DD, Swaan PW, Dalton JT.
A ligand-based approach to identify quantitative structure-activity relationships for the androgen receptor.
J Med Chem. 2004 Jul 15;47(15):3765-76.

2: Albrecht-Betancourt M, Hijazi RA, Cunningham GR.
Androgen replacement in men with hypogonadism and erectile dysfunction.
Endocrine. 2004 Mar-Apr;23(2-3):143-8.

3: Marhefka CA, Gao W, Chung K, Kim J, He Y, Yin D, Bohl C, Dalton JT, Miller DD.
Design, synthesis, and biological characterization of metabolically stable selective androgen receptor modulators.
J Med Chem. 2004 Feb 12;47(4):993-8.

4: Hanada K, Furuya K, Yamamoto N, Nejishima H, Ichikawa K, Nakamura T, Miyakawa M, Amano S, Sumita Y, Oguro N.
Bone anabolic effects of S-40503, a novel nonsteroidal selective androgen receptor modulator (SARM), in rat models of osteoporosis.
Biol Pharm Bull. 2003 Nov;26(11):1563-9.

5: Yin D, Gao W, Kearbey JD, Xu H, Chung K, He Y, Marhefka CA, Veverka KA, Miller DD, Dalton JT.
Pharmacodynamics of selective androgen receptor modulators.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2003 Mar;304(3):1334-40.

6: Yin D, He Y, Perera MA, Hong SS, Marhefka C, Stourman N, Kirkovsky L, Miller DD, Dalton JT.
Key structural features of nonsteroidal ligands for binding and activation of the androgen receptor.
Mol Pharmacol. 2003 Jan;63(1):211-23.

7: Chen F, Rodan GA, Schmidt A.
Development of selective androgen receptor modulators and their therapeutic applications.
Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2002;8(3):162-8. Review.

8: Roy AK, Tyagi RK, Song CS, Lavrovsky Y, Ahn SC, Oh TS, Chatterjee B.
Androgen receptor: structural domains and functional dynamics after ligand-receptor interaction.
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2001 Dec;949:44-57. Review.

9: Negro-Vilar A.
Selective androgen receptor modulators (SARMs): a novel approach to androgen therapy for the new millennium.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Oct;84(10):3459-62. Review. No abstract available.

****************************************************

For the record, I am natty but I am NOT against drugs for those that wish to use.... I am only for giving bros good info so that they can do their own research and prevent harming themselves...

Please note in my undergraduated and graduate education, I have written papers on receptor/drug binding and done both clinical (human) and animal studies with both accepted and experimental drugs....

Best wishes to all bros regardless of your decisions and do your OWN research... http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

Triple J · Aug 13, 2004

Rick Rock what dosage levels do you recommend and what are the costs involved?

Methyl-1T is cheap enough but some others I have seen are a bit steep ..

SlimJim300 · Aug 13, 2004

4 grams of VPX "test-OH" is $50 (cypionate ester)
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/vpx/4ht.html

2 grams of HMgear test-OH is $69 (decanoate ester)https://hmgear.com/products/testosterone-oh.shtml

--------------------------------------------------

360mg of SMS "oxanavar" is $28
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sns/mohn.html

450mg of HMgear oxanavar is $69
https://hmgear.com/products/oxanavar.shtml

Ulter · Aug 13, 2004

I'll be glad when they ban PH's. They are not as safe as regular human tested AS, as the man from Michigan pointed out. They are not manufactured under anywhere near the same conditions that say, GD Searle makes oxandrolone under, and the sides are far worse while the results are less. The only good thing you can say about PH's is that they are legal.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 13, 2004

ulter said:
I'll be glad when they ban PH's. They are not as safe as regular human tested AS, as the man from Michigan pointed out. They are not manufactured under anywhere near the same conditions that say, GD Searle makes oxandrolone under, and the sides are far worse while the results are less. The only good thing you can say about PH's is that they are legal.

Not sure what you mean by that. except for a couple of US companies, pretty much everybody buys their raw material from china or India (including Anabolic Fitness).
The hormones I talked about, are made by the same Labs making the raw materials for the European and mexican brand illegal steroids.

TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT · Aug 13, 2004

alternatives are gay and a waste of $, either do the real thing or just don't do anything at all

Becoming · Aug 13, 2004

ulter said:
I'll be glad when they ban PH's. They are not as safe as regular human tested AS, as the man from Michigan pointed out. They are not manufactured under anywhere near the same conditions that say, GD Searle makes oxandrolone under, and the sides are far worse while the results are less. The only good thing you can say about PH's is that they are legal.

I won't say that they don't have potential (as the SARMs do) but there is a lot more to it than just putting a Hydrogen here or there or adding a methyl group.... tons of testing and research has to go in to it before you know what you are getting - even if it is both pure and sterile...

If you think about the things people do with regular AAS (taking huge doses, not doing research, not using PCT) the potential abuse and health problems are 100X worse because these things are so readily available.... :worried:

OMEGA · Aug 13, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
pretty much everybody buys their raw material from china or India (including Anabolic Fitness).

not me

I refuse to bye anything not done with US labor

its a matter of principle

StickFigure · Aug 13, 2004

OMEGA said:
not me

I refuse to bye anything not done with US labor

its a matter of principle

What do you drive??

OMEGA · Aug 13, 2004

StickFigure said:
What do you drive??

Jeep Cherokee

soflaguy · Aug 13, 2004

ulter said:
I'll be glad when they ban PH's. They are not as safe as regular human tested AS, as the man from Michigan pointed out. They are not manufactured under anywhere near the same conditions that say, GD Searle makes oxandrolone under, and the sides are far worse while the results are less. The only good thing you can say about PH's is that they are legal.

Agreed!
Who really cares about PH's?

Cost?: Injectable testosterone is cheap for a basic cycle, probably cheaper than these PH's.
Side-effects?: All of the side-effects are well discussed on this forum and effective means for treating them. Clomid and nolvadex are cheap too.
Legality? They are only illegal without a prescription.

The biggest factors will always be the time spent training and money used for food.

StickFigure · Aug 13, 2004

OMEGA said:
Jeep Cherokee

Good enough for me! Glad you're not just a "shit" talker. I hear too many people bitch and moan about "...I only buy American..." and then turn around and every other thing they own is made overseas, including their "As American As it Gets" Ford truck. This whole country's whole industrial power has gone to shit! IMHO :verygood:

gjohnson5 · Aug 13, 2004

Wow , you are long winded

Yes the hydroxynorandrolone http://www.discountanabolics.com/page/DA/PROD/4HN/LG03 is something I currently use and I can say I had some trouble doing skullcrushers. Not that my tris are just weak , but skullcrushers place alot of stress on the elbow if you elbow is tucked in as it should be. The only thing I changed is cycling this product and the 185lb skullcrushers I could do.

I've had good gains currently in a cycle right now with
http://www.discountanabolics.com/page/DA/PROD/M1T/L1T
http://www.discountanabolics.com/page/DA/PROD/4HT/L4A
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/tl/nitratetabs.html (just because I had some pills left from previous cycle)

But I see good results and I generally outlift the people who I work with (my company bought an abandoned school building and turned it into a gym)
I am curious to know what the difference is in terms of gains from these products and some of the illegal stuff , but you said it yourself. My career advancement is higher on my list of do's then my want to be bigger and stronger. I read the story about the DEA making apperances at the Arnold Classic and that kinda worries me. My company that manufactures "nutraceuticals" is also under diress from the FDA , so this recent crackdown is fairly widespead. A posession charge is a felony and would be a career ender to most anyone in the IT/IS industry. We all have to go through some sort of background check, so staying clean is atleast a sizable worry. Not to mention if you have a wife and kinds what this would do to your family.

Unfortunately Rock , your email is fairly late as even these drugs are scheduled to be turned into controlled substances due to recent pushes in the House of Representatives due to H.R. 207 and proposals from D Joe Biden and my favorite senator in my state Mr Dick Durbin :-( I believe the date is October (ish) for this to happen. It's amazing what people will do to put just on thier resume, in some peoples cases they want to tell people what they can and cannot put in thier bodies just because they don't use them. My name is not Barry Bonds and I am not a pro baseball player , but all this nonsense seems to be stemed from him hitting all these home runs. Playa Haters these days

Anyway I would like to try the real drugs but
1. They are very expensive due to thier illegality
2. They have an even higher cost if caught with them
3. There's a high likelyhood of you buying something fake
4. You dealer may take your money and run
5. Your dealer may be a policeman (if you don't know the person, then how do you know his intent. You may not know the person's intent even if you do know them)

Damn I wish I lived in a foreign country :-(

OMEGA · Aug 13, 2004

StickFigure said:
This whole country's whole industrial power has gone to shit! IMHO

blame whore politicions and to much centralized closed group corpote power

its a a shame

Big Rick Rock · Aug 13, 2004

OMEGA said:
not me

I refuse to bye anything not done with US labor

its a matter of principle

You are a good man! If only more guys thought the way you do.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 13, 2004

Great fucking post.

gjohnson5 said:
But I see good results and I generally outlift the people who I work with (my company bought an abandoned school building and turned it into a gym)
I am curious to know what the difference is in terms of gains from these products and some of the illegal stuff , but you said it yourself. My career advancement is higher on my list of do's then my want to be bigger and stronger. I read the story about the DEA making apperances at the Arnold Classic and that kinda worries me. My company that manufactures "nutraceuticals" is also under diress from the FDA , so this recent crackdown is fairly widespead. A posession charge is a felony and would be a career ender to most anyone in the IT/IS industry. We all have to go through some sort of background check, so staying clean is atleast a sizable worry. Not to mention if you have a wife and kinds what this would do to your family.

Unfortunately Rock , your email is fairly late as even these drugs are scheduled to be turned into controlled substances due to recent pushes in the House of Representatives due to H.R. 207 and proposals from D Joe Biden and my favorite senator in my state Mr Dick Durbin :-( I believe the date is October (ish) for this to happen. It's amazing what people will do to put just on thier resume, in some peoples cases they want to tell people what they can and cannot put in thier bodies just because they don't use them. My name is not Barry Bonds and I am not a pro baseball player , but all this nonsense seems to be stemed from him hitting all these home runs. Playa Haters these days

Anyway I would like to try the real drugs but
1. They are very expensive due to thier illegality
2. They have an even higher cost if caught with them
3. There's a high likelyhood of you buying something fake
4. You dealer may take your money and run
5. Your dealer may be a policeman (if you don't know the person, then how do you know his intent. You may not know the person's intent even if you do know them)

Damn I wish I lived in a foreign country :-(

manny78 · Aug 13, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
Lets open this discussion about legal alternatives to Steroids.

Every time somebody brings up the word “proHormone” or “ProSteroid” guys will always say “its not better than the real thing”…

Just what is the real thing?

All of the steroids we use today were created 40-60 years ago.
This wonderful hormone called “Testosterone” has lent itself to be synthesized and altered into many different hormones that would otherwise not appear in nature. During the mid 90s due to a loophole in the law companies began to put out new hormones that where not in the list of banned substances from the Bush administration of 1990… The main problems with these first pro hormones were lack of absorption via oral delivery. The early andros just didn’t absorb well and as much as 90% of the product would be destroyed before it reached the blood stream…

Enter Methyl!

Taking a page out of illegal steroids cook book, companies began to add a Methyl to their prohormones. As you all know Methyl hormones like Dianabol, Winstrol, Anavar, and Anadrol have been in use for ages!... the Methylation helps theses hormones make it thru digestion and into our blood streams. Of methylated hormones ingested less than 5% is lost, the other 95% makes into the blood stream untouched!

Over the past couple of years a whole new family of Legal hormones has been created. These are not the Andros of the mid 90s but rather sophisticated engineered designer hormones. Some companies even started adding Ester chains to their hormones and selling them packaged in Sterile solutions that can be injectd. Due to the laws of our land, these companies must market their products as being for “Oral use” however they package their products in bottles that have a rubber stopper perfect for using a needle to draw the hormones and sterile solution containing BA/EA for sterility and suspension purposes.

Althought guys will always say “it is not as good as the real thing” I think they have a skewed view of these legal steroids… They are just as good as “the real thing”, in fact they are not imitation steroids, they are just different steroids…
I’m at a point in my life where taking the risk of receiving packages with illegal contents or having possession of them in my home is not really worth the risk.. I have a son and a career on the fast track! getting arrested right now would bring all of that to a screeching hault…
I’m looking for legal alternatives to achieving my goals, even if the progress is a bit slower, or even if I spend a little more money on creatine and other legal supps… Not going to jail and Not having to pay $everal grand to fight a case in court make it all worth it in the end.

I have tried a few pro hormones and I’m going to name a couple that I was really impressed with.

17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone :
this is really a stand out in everything I have used. This hormone is Methylated so it is easily absorbed and almost nothing is lost during digestion. 13 times more ANABOLIC and 3 times more ANDROGENIC then testosterone!
I have a couple of our consultation clients on this stuff and the results have been phenomenal. One of these guys lives in So Cali and 17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone
is now classified as a Schedule C-III steroid in three states: California, Montana and Nevada. I know, this is unbelievable and CRAZY, but it's the law. So, if your shipping address is one of the above mentioned three states, most companies can not ship to you.

Of course, there are people who have friends in the other 47 states that it's totally legal to have it shipped to them and then their friends work out some kind of shipping for them. Anyway, we are NOT condoning any law breaking. Just reporting back some customer feedback.

There is an injectable version in the works ( HydroxyNandrolone Decanoate) Just how Equipoise is a Esterified non-Methylated version of dianabol, so is HydroxyNandrolone Decanoate to 17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone.

The other satnd out products I have tried is:

4-Hydroxy Testosterone Decanoate: Now this is a pretty cool fucking product… it is as Anabolic and Adrogenic as regular testosterone, but since they tweaked the hormone a bit it will not convert to either Estrogen OR DHT…

In fact, pharmaceutical giant Searle, filed a patent on how to manufacture this modified form of testosterone back in 1956. But luckily for us (and YOU), they never released the hormone commercially and hence, why we are able to as an OTC "supplement".

As stated above, 4-Hydroxy Testosterone Decanoate cannot convert to estrogen. But as another benefit, but it will convert to the powerful "suicide" aromatase inhibitor 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (better known as Formestane).

I have used these two products on myself and have some consultation clients that wanted to try a legal option to Steroids… This stuff has worked great for them.

I hope some of this info helps.

The stuff you posted might be legit and good, but for us canadians it doesnt make a big difference: according to the law, they're the same as any AAS. And since AAS end up costing less than pro-hormones, there's just no need for that. But for you guys, I can see the need for that.

BigGuns29 · Aug 14, 2004

OMEGA said:
not me

I refuse to bye anything not done with US labor

its a matter of principle

What did you write your post with? That computer has more than 99% non-american made components in it. It is a matter of where you draw the line, but you can't say you refuse to buy anything not done with us labor. Ever shop at wal mart?

Yohimbe comes from a tree in Africa. If you buy that stuff or anything that has it in it, than you are buying something that is not done with US labor. Politics suck, and this is why this is true.

muscleup · Aug 14, 2004

BRR , weren't you the guy who was pumping up AP's{Animal Power} products the other day ???...are you sure this thread is not an advertisement for a sponsor

BigGuns29 · Aug 14, 2004

muscleup said:
BRR , weren't you the guy who was pumping up AP's{Animal Power} products the other day ???...are you sure this thread is not an advertisement for a sponsor

? me?

Mavy · Aug 14, 2004

If you want to do it legally, do it with Food. High protien, great all round diet, and good training and rest. There are few legal substances for muscle growth that I would use without wanting to waste my money. These include creatine, and glutamine peptides.

If you are trying to break out of a plateau, or get past a genetic limit, why not use steroids. It dosent get much more effective than testosterone. This is as simple as it gets. Why would you waste your time and cash on prohormones when anabolic steroids will do whatever they do ... only MUCH better. Save your money and go grocery shopping with it.

Mavy

Big Rick Rock · Aug 14, 2004

muscleup said:
BRR , weren't you the guy who was pumping up AP's{Animal Power} products the other day ???...are you sure this thread is not an advertisement for a sponsor

Yes, they are sponsors. People make threads about our sponsors, their products and their competitors all the time... I don't see why it is not OK for me to do it.

Triple J · Aug 14, 2004

I find the products interesting, and there is more to it than just being legal or not. First off, the products are not prohormones they are steroids. Secondly they have some compelling properties in their own right as compared to other AAS: the hydoxy-T does not aromatize or convert to DHT, while the 17aa-hydroxy nandrolone is a short half-life nandrolone like NPP, in the convenience of an oral. These are potentially beneficial modifications to established steroids, so to think there are significant risks (beyond any other AAS) is an exaggeration IMHO.

DIVISION · Aug 14, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
Yes, they are sponsors. People make threads about our sponsors, their products and their competitors all the time... I don't see why it is not OK for me to do it.

When you do it, some people see it as a conflict of interests.

:chomp:

Ulter · Aug 14, 2004

Triple J said:
...while the 17aa-hydroxy nandrolone is a short half-life nandrolone like NPP, in the convenience of an oral. These are potentially beneficial modifications to established steroids, so to think there are significant risks (beyond any other AAS) is an exaggeration IMHO.

Use it for 6 weeks, get your liver values checked, and then tell me how it stacks up to NPP in terms of risks. I won't even get into the gains aspect because that's not even close.

These "steriods" are a get rich quick scheme by people who don't give a rats ass what sides might be found from their long term use. M1T is absolutely brutal on your liver and like I said, you have no idea under what conditions these chemicals are manufactured. There is no BA in a capsule to at least give you a chance against a contaminent that can phuck you up.

Anafit and AvoPharm passed on this crap a year ago when it was all the rage and we could have cashed in like everyone else. The money is not worth it to us. If in 3-4 years from now the toxicity of these "steroids" turns out to cause serious liver damage or other ailments to people who have used them long term it going to be too bad because the people selling this stuff will be long gone. Right now no one knows what these do to a person using them long term. Luckily they'll only be around a few more months, legally.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 14, 2004

DIVISION said:
When you do it, some people see it as a conflict of interests.

ahhhh Fuck those people!

(that was a joke by the way)

jatca69 · Aug 14, 2004

ulter said:
Use it for 6 weeks, get your liver values checked, and then tell me how it stacks up to NPP in terms of risks. I won't even get into the gains aspect because that's not even close.

These "steriods" are a get rich quick scheme by people who don't give a rats ass what sides might be found from their long term use. M1T is absolutely brutal on your liver and like I said, you have no idea under what conditions these chemicals are manufactured. There is no BA in a capsule to at least give you a chance against a contaminent that can phuck you up.

Anafit and AvoPharm passed on this crap a year ago when it was all the rage and we could have cashed in like everyone else. The money is not worth it to us. If in 3-4 years from now the toxicity of these "steroids" turns out to cause serious liver damage or other ailments to people who have used them long term it going to be too bad because the people selling this stuff will be long gone. Right now no one knows what these do to a person using them long term. Luckily they'll only be around a few more months, legally.

Alright!!!! Sponsor Vs. Sponsor...let's get ready to rumble :evil:

DIVISION · Aug 14, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
ahhhh Fuck those people!
(that was a joke by the way)

I know, bro........settle down

:chomp:

Big Rick Rock · Aug 14, 2004

ulter said:
There is no BA in a capsule to at least give you a chance against a contaminent that can phuck you up.

BA? do you really feel that it is much of an issue?
what kind of bacteria can be contained in a prohormone capsule that you won't get from eating at a restaurant?... Should we be concerned for ingesting any capsule with any supplement in it for that matter?
Some of us that have bought powders and capped them in our kitchen, should we be concerned about the contaminants in those caps too?

I'm not being a smart ass, I might have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Ulter · Aug 14, 2004

I can only guess you have never been in a chemical manufacturing plant. It's no restaurant.

But that wasn't my point. There are UG labs that make injectable steroids. They are made in labs that are not supervised by anyone. But they have legitimate steroids in the product that are in BA to protect against infection.
The PH "steroids" are likewise unsupervised in their lab conditions, but there is no precautions against bad material going into them.
Which is only a superficial problem compared to the fact that "steroids" themselves have never been tested on humans for short or long term side effects. They just make them and sell them because YAHOO! there is no pesky FDA in the way to make sure they are safe.

DIVISION · Aug 14, 2004

No Shit!

ulter said:
They just make them and sell them because YAHOO! there is no pesky FDA in the way to make sure they are safe.

As you say this, UG labs everywhere are rejoicing in unison.......

:lmao:

Ulter · Aug 14, 2004

The difference is that UG labs are using steroids that have been tested and proven safe on humans for decades.

gjohnson5 · Aug 14, 2004

ulter said:
Use it for 6 weeks, get your liver values checked, and then tell me how it stacks up to NPP in terms of risks. I won't even get into the gains aspect because that's not even close.

I have actually done that. In Feb I got off M1t and on the 18 the liver enzymes were elevated. I'm not sure about 6 weeks though , I would have used it for say 3-4 and gotten off it.

DIVISION · Aug 14, 2004

gjohnson5 said:
I have actually done that. In Feb I got off M1t and on the 18 the liver enzymes were elevated. I'm not sure about 6 weeks though , I would have used it for say 3-4 and gotten off it.

All I gotta say on this, is that if I'm gonna be using a substance that will raise my liver enzymes, it will be the real deal, not an overpriced pro-hormone.

Pro-Hormones do not = the real thing.

gjohnson5 · Aug 14, 2004

DIVISION said:
All I gotta say on this, is that if I'm gonna be using a substance that will raise my liver enzymes, it will be the real deal, not an overpriced pro-hormone.

Pro-Hormones do not = the real thing.

The gastroenerologist who looked at the number said the elevation was not enough for him or me to worry about. Thats me though

Since I haven't used any of the "real thing" then I can't compare. To be honest I was glad I was using this since we have tons of examples from Lyle Alzado to Superstar Billy Graham who are either dead or have destroyed livers and joint replacements due to using the illegal stuff. But some of you are saying that some AAS is totally safe. I guess I will just have to search on what is safe and what is not.

hammertime30 · Aug 14, 2004

Tried alternatives for a year...They are very limited and you will plateau in about 6months...Your body will adapt very quickly and after that you will still have to go to the real thing in order to continue to grow. They have side effects as well when it comes to hitting a low once you discontinue so you will still need to run a PCT afterwards, but just not for a lenghty time...If you want to use alternative then use alternatives, but I'm tired of the bullshit with people trying to compare them to steroids...I made more advancement in 4 weeks with the real thing then I did the whole 8months off alternatives....IF THEY WERE AS POWERFUL AS STEROIDS, THEN THEY WOULD BE FUCKING ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SCULLS!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you....I feel better now......

Ulter · Aug 14, 2004

IF THEY WERE AS POWERFUL AS STEROIDS, THEN THEY WOULD BE FUCKING ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SCULLS!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you....I feel better now......

Ah no actually, X and cocaine were legal too. The only reason PH's are legal is because there is no specific law against them. It has nothing to do with how powerful they are.

"Lyle Alzado" That's pretty funny. Do you work for the media?

DIVISION · Aug 15, 2004

Media Bias Bullshit....

ulter said:
Ah no actually, X and cocaine were legal too. The only reason PH's are legal is because there is no specific law against them. It has nothing to do with how powerful they are.

"Lyle Alzado" That's pretty funny. Do you work for the media?

There's still no evidence that the brain tumor had anything to do with AAS.

:lmao:

gjohnson5 · Aug 15, 2004

ulter said:
"Lyle Alzado" That's pretty funny. Do you work for the media?

If you go back in the thread I say what I do. Anyway Lyle Alzado knew of Lyle Alzado's unhealthy acts. The media has nothing to do with anything , he came out and publicly said before his death he did this and that, and he put this and that into his body. I don't think anyone paid him to more or less confess on TV, but I think he knew so he said why.

I wish I could find a video what he said on the air before his death, because I remember it vividly.

muscleup · Aug 15, 2004

I was just fucking with ya bro :artist:

Big Rick Rock said:
Yes, they are sponsors. People make threads about our sponsors, their products and their competitors all the time... I don't see why it is not OK for me to do it.

Ulter · Aug 15, 2004

I saw Lyle give his speech, twice. Lyle was not a doctor and had no idea what he was talking about, he just said what he was told. Your doctor would probably tell you the same thing today because an onocologist doesn't know squat about steroids. They just told Lyle the textbook AMA stance on steroids as of 1992 and Lyle repeated it. The media then used it as a boogie man to sell gloom and doom. People just took what was said and spead it as truth that steroids cause brain tumors and spread the propaganda. Here it is over a decade later and it's being posted, by you, as though it's a fact when it's not.

wizardnor · Aug 15, 2004

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA
not me

I refuse to bye anything not done with US labor

its a matter of principle

You are a good man! If only more guys thought the way you do.

same here for me US. only. but the names brands are made out if the US.
my DVD, TV, VCR & haft the car parts are out side the US. sad

gjohnson5 · Aug 15, 2004

ulter said:
People just took what was said and spead it as truth that steroids cause brain tumors and spread the propaganda. Here it is over a decade later and it's being posted, by you, as though it's a fact when it's not.

Point number one that you miss. If I believed that steroids caused brain cancer then I wouldn't be doing m1d or hydroxy norandrolone. I don't believe that either.

Point number 2 that you miss. There is no way that any doctor at this time can say with certainty that this drug will act this way in your body. Take drug X and combine it with drug Y and Z and it becomes even more of a mystery. Then take the fact that he probably received plenty of fake drugs. How much fake stuff did he inject into his body? Everyone is different, and people react differently to different drugs. Obviously Lyle had to ask himself "why me" after being diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. The lifestyle questions that I'm sure he was asked on top of the information that was in the back of his mind I believe lead up to him into making his confession.

So what I was trying to say is wheather it be weed or dbol, you need to evaluate what is the cost of buying and taking this drug, including stress , legal problem , loss job/wages, and your health. If you've ever played any amount of sports or done full contact martial arts to any degree , you know that kickin' peoples asses might as well be a drug. Noone wants to lose, so people will do whatever it takes to get to the top and stay there. But in some cases the cost is just too high....

But you are correct we don't know for certain

jcam222 · Aug 15, 2004

SlimJim300 said:
4 grams of VPX "test-OH" is $50 (cypionate ester)
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/vpx/4ht.html

2 grams of HMgear test-OH is $69 (decanoate ester)https://hmgear.com/products/testosterone-oh.shtml

--------------------------------------------------

360mg of SMS "oxanavar" is $28
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sns/mohn.html

450mg of HMgear oxanavar is $69
https://hmgear.com/products/oxanavar.shtml

Is the VPX product injectable and sterile? Would be nice as its longer lasting than the decanoate I believe? You can buy 4-oht powder for around $5/gm . Would love to just make my own stuff but not sure if you would just use in a kit or what as far as making it into cyp or decanoate.

Ulter · Aug 15, 2004

Point number one that you miss. If I believed that steroids caused brain cancer then I wouldn't be doing m1d or hydroxy norandrolone. I don't believe that either.

I think it's you who has missed the point. I didn't bring up Alzado, you did. If don't believe his statements why did you bring him up as "an example" in the first place?

The rest of what you wrote is... well... that's nice.

lartinos · Aug 15, 2004

Hey Rick......... Did you inject the test-oh? I am on the methylated nandrolone right now and agree it is a good product.

BOOEY · Aug 15, 2004

Maybe it's just me, but when I think of pro-hormones I think of a 17-year old kid trying to find a short-cut to getting big ... can't compare roids and Ph. It's not like Pro-hormones are a big secret. If they were as cost-effective as the real deal, you wouldn't see people trying to get their hands on something illegal when its alternative was legal

DIVISION · Aug 15, 2004

Everyone OUTTA the pool!!!!

BOOEY said:
Maybe it's just me, but when I think of pro-hormones I think of a 17-year old kid trying to find a short-cut to getting big ... can't compare roids and Ph. It's not like Pro-hormones are a big secret. If they were as cost-effective as the real deal, you wouldn't see people trying to get their hands on something illegal when its alternative was legal

My sentiments exactly...

:lmao:

Becoming · Aug 16, 2004

Triple J said:
they have some compelling properties in their own right as compared to other AAS: the hydoxy-T does not aromatize or convert to DHT, while the 17aa-hydroxy nandrolone is a short half-life nandrolone like NPP, in the convenience of an oral. These are potentially beneficial modifications to established steroids, so to think there are significant risks (beyond any other AAS) is an exaggeration IMHO.

Funny - where did you get these facts? any REAL studies you can quote/link to?

I wouldn't know what the exact effects are without extensive pharmacokinetic, drug metabolism and toxicology studies - but I am sure PH companies are willing to shell out for those.... right?

try using a scientific source... http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

Like I said - the last person I want giving me the scientific word on something is the guy selling it...

jcam222 · Aug 16, 2004

Bear with this long post but I have many thoughts on this thread.

To assume that something is ineffective because it is legal simply does not make sense. Over the years there have been countless substances that were legal for periods of time before they were controlled and / or banned. Why is it so hard to believe someone could develop a steriod or prohormone that is effective but as of yet not controlled? These are not much different than the designer stuff that has been and is made for pro athletes.....things that are developed using legal loopholes that are probably about to close.

My only concern with them is in the lack of long term testing and empirical data. I have seen that mentioned multiple times here and have to agree with that for sure. There is usually a lot of marketing hype associated with some of these products that is based on some remote study or even prediction of what the product "should" do based on its relationship to a similar chemical. Sometimes those assumptions based on the modification (methlyization for example) are absurd. Take for example the difference in equipoise vs. boldenone.

I think in general though some folks miss the point of the post (even if partially its advertising). There are plenty of people who are into fitness, want to get big and want an edge who can no longer afford the risk associated with the scheduled substances. They have to think not only of theirselves and their careers but also about the families who rely on them. When you flame someone for simply wanting to investigate legal possibilities in order to protect their families best interests you are being very narrow minded and frankly its bullshit.

Becoming · Aug 16, 2004

jcam222 said:
To assume that something is ineffective because it is legal simply does not make sense. Why is it so hard to believe someone could develop a steriod or prohormone that is effective but as of yet not controlled?

Word - they are so similar they must do something...

jcam222 said:
These are not much different than the designer stuff that has been and is made for pro athletes.....

I think they have more research for those than you think... People like marion jones don't just put anything in their bodies (if they do at all

)

jcam222 said:
My only concern with them is in the lack of long term testing and empirical data. I have seen that mentioned multiple times here and have to agree with that for sure. There is usually a lot of marketing hype associated with some of these products that is based on some remote study or even prediction of what the product "should" do based on its relationship to a similar chemical. Sometimes those assumptions based on the modification (methlyization for example) are absurd.

Exactly bro!

jcam222 said:
I think in general though some folks miss the point of the post (even if partially its advertising). There are plenty of people who are into fitness, want to get big and want an edge who can no longer afford the risk associated with the scheduled substances. They have to think not only of theirselves and their careers but also about the families who rely on them. When you flame someone for simply wanting to investigate legal possibilities in order to protect their families best interests you are being very narrow minded and frankly its bullshit.

I understand this point bro - If you want to protect yourself and your family it would make sense to do the neccessary research themselves...

BUT what is the use of "staying legal" if you are little more than a lab rat?

(On a side note some of the drug studies I have personally done in the past with animals with research drugs highlight this point - using two very similar chemical, one proven and one for testing (new drugs are generally discovered the same way - by making small variations in proven drugs) - one would drop rats dead at a dose 1/500th of the useful dose of the similar drug-which in contrast was totally safe- think about what you bros are getting into by using untested substances)

Good post bro - karma to you...

DIVISION · Aug 16, 2004

Becoming said:
the last person I want giving me the scientific word on something is the guy selling it...

This is truth.

:chomp:

Triple J · Aug 16, 2004

Becoming said:
Funny - where did you get these facts? any REAL studies you can quote/link to?

I wouldn't know what the exact effects are without extensive pharmacokinetic, drug metabolism and toxicology studies - but I am sure PH companies are willing to shell out for those.... right?

try using a scientific source... http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

Like I said - the last person I want giving me the scientific word on something is the guy selling it...

Hey bro you'll find that a little basic understanding of steroids and chemistry will go a long way towards understanding advertising claims, and save you tons of time researching everthing you may want to consider putting into your body .... also there are experienced users of these substances on other boards, with mostly positive reports, if that means anything.

On the other hand if you want to believe one of the fine sponsors of this site is not to be trusted then that is your business.

Becoming · Aug 16, 2004

Triple J said:
Hey bro you'll find that a little basic understanding of steroids and chemistry will go a long way towards understanding advertising claims, and save you tons of time researching everthing you may want to consider putting into your body ....

Like I said, I have actually done animal studies with a variety of experimental drugs and you can't just "know" how it will work out based on an educated guess...

As I just stated, I worked with 2 experimental drugs specifically that were very similar to an accepted medical treatment.... one was perfectly safe and the other killed off more than 50% of mice with 1/500th the approved dosage for the "similar" accepted compound...

As far as trusting any company - Can you document that all of those "user reports" are unique and real people and not handles planted by supplement companies?

And can you say for a fact that these products might be causing molecular damage to some of your cells and organs that might not show up for 2-5 years if not further down the road...?

Advertising claims are just that until they are backed up with peer reviewed scientific publications... and EXTENSIVE pharmacology and toxicology reports...

There is not ONE true scientist or physician that would make such claims (that they can predict exact effects) no matter how long they have been practicing....

Triple J said:
also there are experienced users of these substances on other boards, with mostly positive reports, if that means anything.

Sure, Methyl-1 test gives good effects, but we also know it will blow up your liver values too...

Take a shit load of A-bombs 3 times a day every day for a year - it will work, it does not mean it is good for you....

Irresponsible and ignorant is no way to go through life.

DIVISION · Aug 16, 2004

2 what degree...

Becoming said:
Methyl-1 test gives good effects, but we also know it will blow up your liver values too...

Take a shit load of A-bombs 3 times a day every day for a year - it will work, it does not mean it is good for you....

Irresponsible and ignorant is no way to go through life.

I agree with your point.

150MG Anadrol ed is no way to live.......

The more you know before you cycle, the more you'll benefit.

:chomp:

Becoming · Aug 16, 2004

Re: 2 what degree...

DIVISION said:
The more you know before you cycle, the more you'll benefit.

Including what you are taking and what it will do to you.... obviously some people miss the point...

DIVISION · Aug 16, 2004

Re: 2 what degree...

Becoming said:
Including what you are taking and what it will do to you.... obviously some people miss the point...

I think a couple kids are just a bit moody because you came with the study.

This forum brings out the mood in alot of people..(me included).

:chomp:

Big Rick Rock · Aug 16, 2004

here is a pop quiz for all the steroid gurus here....

Name a steroid that has been discontinued in use because of its toxicity or side effects. A steroid so bad for you that even the most harcore users won't touch.

Massive karma blast if you name that steroid.

PS: some AAS just can't be found because they are not manufactured anymore, it doesn't mean their use was discontinued because the sides out weight the benefits.

AGAIN massive karma blast for somebody who knows the answer.

BigGuns29 · Aug 16, 2004

I believe the answer to your quiz question to be....nothing.....not existant? No steroid has ever been discontinued because of toxicity or side effects.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 16, 2004

BigGuns29 said:
I believe the answer to your quiz question to be....nothing.....not existant? No steroid has ever been discontinued because of toxicity or side effects.

really? never?
Ever since the first testosterone hormone was altered and turned into D-bol( 70 years ago?)... No steroid has ever been created that had be discontinued due to its bad side effects or long term damage to the body?

I think I need to hear from some other people because I might not believe you sir.

PS: Karma for you.

muscleup · Aug 16, 2004

trenbolone ?

Big Rick Rock · Aug 16, 2004

muscleup said:
trenbolone ?

huh?

There are at least 100 guys here that are doing tren right now. and 100 more that have used it in cycle for the past 5-6 years.

Just because Negma Fran. stoped making it since it had not medical use, it doesn't mean it stoped having a place in the bodybuilding arsenal.

BigGuns29 · Aug 16, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
really? never?
Ever since the first testosterone hormone was altered and turned into D-bol( 70 years ago?)... No steroid has ever been created that had be discontinued due to its bad side effects or long term damage to the body?

I think I need to hear from some other people because I might not believe you sir.

I was just guessing bro, shit. I just wanted you to shit karma all over me!! I am not a steroid history professor, thats why I come here to get my answers.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 16, 2004

BigGuns29 said:
I was just guessing bro, shit. I just wanted you to shit karma all over me!! I am not a steroid history professor, thats why I come here to get my answers.

there was a tone of sarcasm in my post... k for you.

BigGuns29 · Aug 16, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
there was a tone of sarcasm in my post... k for you.

Ok, got some your way as well. Thanks

Damn, how did you do that shit, you nailed me with the green. Thanks again.

gjohnson5 · Aug 16, 2004

ulter said:
I think it's you who has missed the point. I didn't bring up Alzado, you did. If don't believe his statements why did you bring him up as "an example" in the first place?

The rest of what you wrote is... well... that's nice.

I brought up his name because HE believe that steroids caused his problem thus his death. If you believe you are a Christian , then you are a Christian. Noone can say for sure because noone knows what all he put in his body, at what amounts , and over what length of time, so you cannot say that steroids didn't cause his problems.

JMD · Aug 16, 2004

I guessed Stenox, got any K for me even though it is wrong answer?

lartinos · Aug 16, 2004

methyl-test?

DIVISION · Aug 16, 2004

lartinos said:
methyl-test?

It's not Methytest, because it is still on the market.

How do I know?

I have a prescription for it.

DIV

BigGuns29 · Aug 16, 2004

is it cybergenics?

Just kidding

DIVISION · Aug 16, 2004

JMD said:
I guessed Stenox, got any K for me even though it is wrong answer?

It's not Halotestin either, because I script for that as well.

DIV

gjohnson5 · Aug 16, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
here is a pop quiz for all the steroid gurus here....

Name a steroid that has been discontinued in use because of its toxicity or side effects. A steroid so bad for you that even the most harcore users won't touch.

Massive karma blast if you name that steroid.

PS: some AAS just can't be found because they are not manufactured anymore, it doesn't mean their use was discontinued because the sides out weight the benefits.

AGAIN massive karma blast for somebody who knows the answer.

I notise Winthrop Company discontinued a steroid called Strombaject due to liver toxicity. But I see it also called Winstrol-V which is what Ben Johnson is supposedly caught with in his urine and stripped of a gold medal , so I'm not quite sure

Sigmund Roid · Aug 17, 2004

I don't buy this:

"17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone :
this is really a stand out in everything I have used. This hormone is Methylated so it is easily absorbed and almost nothing is lost during digestion. 13 times more ANABOLIC and 3 times more ANDROGENIC then testosterone! "

17a methylation will result in a big loss in potency of both the androgenic and anabolic activity. Maybe it is "13 times more anabolic than testosterone" when the latter is also taken orally.

Oh yes, and the answer to the discontinued roid for liver tox. is 17a-methyltrenbolone.

DIVISION · Aug 17, 2004

Sigmund Roid said:
the answer to the discontinued roid for liver tox. is 17a-methyltrenbolone.

Props for that, Siggie.....

MethylTren, huh?

I never even knew that shit was on the market. Who manufactured it and how long was it actually sold?

DIV

bullcocky · Aug 17, 2004

These products seem to be just as effective as a mild AAS such as primo or light doses of deca. Your body is not made do grow as fast as some steroids make your body grow. This is why you see a lot of these ugly stretch marks on guys in the shoulders, biceps, and upper outer chest cavity area. It makes more sense to let your body grow at a slower pace so you don't have these stretch marks or if you are older and your body cannot handle the harsh sides from AAS. I still use AAS, but I was thinking that these pro-hormones would be perfect to help maintain after a cycle of illegal gear. Does this make sense or would this help maintain.

My questions are, if this pro-hormone does not shut down the natural test levels, does it raise the natural test above and beyond what is normally produced?

Can you stay on these pro-hormones year rould w/o sides?

bullcocky · Aug 17, 2004

give us a hint on this discontinued roid,....oral or inject???

BOOEY · Aug 17, 2004

bullcocky said:
These products seem to be just as effective as a mild AAS such as primo or light doses of deca. Your body is not made do grow as fast as some steroids make your body grow. This is why you see a lot of these ugly stretch marks on guys in the shoulders, biceps, and upper outer chest cavity area. It makes more sense to let your body grow at a slower pace so you don't have these stretch marks or if you are older and your body cannot handle the harsh sides from AAS. I still use AAS, but I was thinking that these pro-hormones would be perfect to help maintain after a cycle of illegal gear. Does this make sense or would this help maintain.

My questions are, if this pro-hormone does not shut down the natural test levels, does it raise the natural test above and beyond what is normally produced?

Can you stay on these pro-hormones year rould w/o sides?

I don't know about you, but I've gotten stretch marks without being on cycle. I would think the best alternative to steroids is eating a lot of food and lifting heavy. Not something in between with as much side effects as AAS. True, they may work, in fact people say they do gain weight while on a prohormone cycle. But along with the weight gain comes the wtaer bloat, hair loss, acne, an so forth. With all these negatives it amazes me why someone would take these products, while a quality AAS-cycle provides results 10x better.

manny78 · Aug 17, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
here is a pop quiz for all the steroid gurus here....

Name a steroid that has been discontinued in use because of its toxicity or side effects. A steroid so bad for you that even the most harcore users won't touch.

Massive karma blast if you name that steroid.

PS: some AAS just can't be found because they are not manufactured anymore, it doesn't mean their use was discontinued because the sides out weight the benefits.

AGAIN massive karma blast for somebody who knows the answer.

Finaject is one, Parabolan is another. But my vote goes to Drope cheques and metribolone.

Becoming · Aug 17, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
here is a pop quiz for all the steroid gurus here....

Name a steroid that has been discontinued in use because of its toxicity or side effects. A steroid so bad for you that even the most harcore users won't touch.

Massive karma blast if you name that steroid.

PS: some AAS just can't be found because they are not manufactured anymore, it doesn't mean their use was discontinued because the sides out weight the benefits.

Big Rick Rock said:
No steroid has ever been created that had be discontinued due to its bad side effects or long term damage to the body?

I hope you can see the diffence between toxicity in UNTESTED HORMONE VARIANTS vs toxicity in currently or formerly APPROVED MEDICAL TREATMENTS.... but just in case I will lay it out for you...

Parabolan was discontinued I believe (I don't know cause I was too young to be around back then) more due to doping reasons than for toxicity reasons... I know masteron was also discontinued but I don't know the reasons... again I think it is more because of doping a variety of orals can be liver toxic in sufficient dosages (but then so can acetaminophen) and it is suspected tren substances can be kidney toxic in suffient dosages...

But none of the current or formerly APPROVED MEDICAL TREATMENTS (the ILLEGAL steriods) have since been discontinued specifically for toxicity reasons to my knowledge...

there is a good reason for this... each and every one of those drugs went through years of extensive testing in humans and animals PRIOR to thier official release and subsequent use in humans... these studies were also reviewed thoroughly by the proper medical authorities... I have no reservations about the safety of any of these compounds in proper dosages.... lets face it, if the FDA approves a medical treatment for human use and then later it is found to be toxic - the shit hits the fan.. they try to make sure what they release is safe (and some does still slip through the cracks)

HOWEVER we are talking about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS....

STERIODS APPROVED FOR HUMAN USE VS UNTESTED AND UNKNOWN STEROID COMPOUNDS...

- the items known affectionately as "pro-hormones" are merely UN-TESTED STEROID COMPOUNDS... little if anything is known about their toxicity and effects (both good and bad) because EXTENSIVE PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFICALLY VALID studies have not been done...

You know that the nazis tested out testosterone variations on concentration camp prisoners right? and that the products that were shown effective without killing the prisoners or otherwise making them sicker were then later used in the German troops, right? EVEN THEY WERE NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO TEST IT ON THEMSELVES FIRST....and that was back in the 30s and 40s.... (On a positive note, we then used testosterone to try and help concentration camp victims recover)

But which ones were either not effective or shown to be toxic? What, they did not write them down for us to know about? Hmmmm, I guess all the things they tested that failed went in the garbage.... As do most other experimental treatment that have been researched in the past and were found to be either dangerous or inneffective.... I guess we will use the public to test them all over again, right?

gjohnson5 · Aug 17, 2004

Sigmund Roid said:
I don't buy this:

"17a-Methyl-4-HydroxyNandrolone :
this is really a stand out in everything I have used. This hormone is Methylated so it is easily absorbed and almost nothing is lost during digestion. 13 times more ANABOLIC and 3 times more ANDROGENIC then testosterone! "

17a methylation will result in a big loss in potency of both the androgenic and anabolic activity. Maybe it is "13 times more anabolic than testosterone" when the latter is also taken orally.

Oh yes, and the answer to the discontinued roid for liver tox. is 17a-methyltrenbolone.

Since I bashed ulter , I decided to give him some props

You 2 are right about the toxicity of m1t. From what I understand methyl 1,4ad isn't as bad and M-OHN is least harsh.

I just read this while I was at work
http://forum.xtrememass.com/archive/index.php/t-4835.html

I can personally attest after taking m1t in Jan and I got off because I wasn't feeling well at all. I had blood work done.
LDH 369 H normal 100-250
AST (SGOT) 129 H normal 0 - 40
ALT (SGPT) 58 H normal 0 - 40

I got off that shit

BigAndy69 · Aug 17, 2004

BRR, are you talking about dbol being discontinued by CIBA?

Big Rick Rock · Aug 17, 2004

BigAndy69 said:
BRR, are you talking about dbol being discontinued by CIBA?

Nope... I'm not concerned about what pharmaceutical companies have discontinued or not. I'm mainly concerned by what users have deemed unusable because it’s side effects out weight the benefits.

Becoming · Aug 17, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
I'm not concerned about what pharmaceutical companies have discontinued or not. I'm mainly concerned by what users have deemed unusable because it’s side effects out weight the benefits.

There have been dudes touting the use of several grams of AAS at one time... also we all have seen threads about dudes that are taking huge amounts of dbol and drol ON TOP of huge cycles... and people that have felt fine on small normal cycles only to find blown up liver values when they get a blood test...

How you FEEL and what you THINK doesn't mean didly shit about the damage you could be doing inside your body.... or whether or not something is safe...

Percieved side effects and true side effects are two completely different things.... I wouldn't tell someone to do a regular cycle without getting bloodwork just because they feel okay, would you?

Well I guess if you feel okay, why bother with any tox or pharmacology testing of PH's at all? For that matter, lets why even bother with a blood test?

Take a tiny bit of arsenic every day and you will feel fine.... sooner or later though you will drop dead...

"Feeling" okay doesn't make something safe...

Big Rick Rock · Aug 17, 2004

Becoming said:
There have been dudes touting the use of several grams of AAS at one time... also we all have seen threads about dudes that are taking huge amounts of dbol and drol ON TOP of huge cycles... and people that have felt fine on small normal cycles only to find blown up liver values when they get a blood test...

How you FEEL and what you THINK doesn't mean didly shit about the damage you could be doing inside your body.... or whether or not something is safe...

Percieved side effects and true side effects are two completely different things.... I wouldn't tell someone to do a regular cycle without getting bloodwork just because they feel okay, would you?

Well I guess if you feel okay, why bother with any tox or pharmacology testing of PH's at all? For that matter, lets why even bother with a blood test?

Take a tiny bit of arsenic every day and you will feel fine.... sooner or later though you will drop dead...

"Feeling" okay doesn't make something safe...

Are these comments directed at ALL steroid use? or just these new untested toxic poisonous deadly prohormones you are trying to save us from?

Becoming · Aug 17, 2004

Big Rick Rock said:
Are these comments directed at ALL steroid use? or just these new untested toxic poisonous deadly prohormones you are trying to save us from?

Feeling okay is NOT an indicator of safety with ANY drug use (even non-steroid drugs) That is why they do testing previous to the release - so that you KNOW it is safe...

The traditional steroids are safe for use as long as one takes the appropriate steps... (bloodwork where neccessary, pct, research as to use and reasonable dosages)
- the fact that you feel okay has nothing to do with their safety, the prior testing and years of well-documented use proves their safety....

Do you just take anything that FEELS safe to you?

I hear antifreeze tastes damn good to pets.... but I doubt I will switch my gatorade out for it anytime soon if someone puts together a chart that shows it will make my bench go up....

Becoming · Aug 17, 2004

On a side note I bet some women would feel damn good on say 500g of sust a week....

Does that mean they won't suffer any long term effects?

Oh wait, does RESEARCH tell us that that might be inappropriate?

Hmmmm, maybe we should research things before we use them....!!!

Triple J · Aug 17, 2004

Thank you for pointing out the risks with these deadly prohormone killers. I now realize selling these substances is akin to Nazi experimentations on prisoners. I tell you, it is a moral outrage. I can take comfort knowing my favorite goods produced by UG and veterinary labs, were once deemed safe by the boys at the FDA. Thank God there are many peer-reviewed studies of bodybuilding level dosages and cycle combinations.

Due to the years of research and peer-reviewed studies, nobody ever is harmed by fda-approved meds, and furthermore we are protected from many potentially deadly drugs being used in primitive societies outside the u.s. Luckily, soon the prohormones (don't believe what your crummy friends might tell you, they are prohormones because they are legal, right?) will be taken off the market. And since they are so risky and without peer-reviewed studies, no UG labs will dare pick them up. Then we will all be safer.

Big Rick Rock · Aug 17, 2004

Triple J said:
Thank you for pointing out the risks with these deadly prohormone killers. I now realize selling these substances is akin to Nazi experimentations on prisoners. I tell you, it is a moral outrage. I can take comfort knowing my favorite goods produced by UG and veterinary labs, were once deemed safe by the boys at the FDA. Thank God there are many peer-reviewed studies of bodybuilding level dosages and cycle combinations.

Due to the years of research and peer-reviewed studies, nobody ever is harmed by fda-approved meds, and furthermore we are protected from many potentially deadly drugs being used in primitive societies outside the u.s. Luckily, soon the prohormones (don't believe what your crummy friends might tell you, they are prohormones because they are legal, right?) will be taken off the market. And since they are so risky and without peer-reviewed studies, no UG labs will dare pick them up. Then we will all be safer.

I sence a touch of sarcasm in your post.

Becoming · Aug 17, 2004

Triple J said:
Thank you for pointing out the risks with these deadly prohormone killers. I now realize selling these substances is akin to Nazi experimentations on prisoners. I tell you, it is a moral outrage.

The point is even they weren't stupid enough to test experimental hormones on themselves back in the 30s/40s...

it was very clearly stated - no need to twist my words around to try and give yourself some basis for an argument...

Triple J said:
I can take comfort knowing my favorite goods produced by UG and veterinary labs, were once deemed safe by the boys at the FDA.

There is no guarantee "PH" substances are produced in any better environment than UG gear as their manufacture is also unregulated...

Triple J said:
Due to the years of research and peer-reviewed studies, nobody ever is harmed by fda-approved meds, and furthermore we are protected from many potentially deadly drugs being used in primitive societies outside the u.s.

People are harmed much less than by unregulated drugs...that is a fact. Also there are means for effective, documented drugs to get to patients here in the US before they are approved here...

Also notepeople in other countries don't need "PH" - why would they when they can have the real thing legally (or much easier than us here in the US at any rate)?

Look, the fact is these things are unproven and undocumented for safety and efficacy...

They may be safe, or maybe not, they may work, or maybe not...
The fact you "feel" okay on them does not mean they are safe...
The fact some people feel that they get results does not make them effective (ever hear of placebo effect?)....

Funny that all I have put up are documentable facts since my first post on this thread and yet you still dance around and try to come up with smooth sounding arguments... and no one has posted not even one reliable journal article posted up about any of them....

Keep dancing...

I am still waiting....

take mega dosages of M1T and any other untested PH if you like, don't take any PCT and don't get your blood work done...

actually, I would prefer it if you did...

actually, now I dare you to.... how bout if I send you a nice new 9.99 bottle of M1t - the only condition is you have to take every one of the pills in the bottle in one 24hour period....

where should I send the bottle? or is this not a good idea?

Triple J · Aug 17, 2004

That's just stupid bro. Taking a whole bottle of M1T? Now who ever said anything about megadosages? who ever said anything about no PCT?

Its very simple, life is full of risks - most of us who have been in this game for a while accept that, and deal with it. We are all gunea pigs to some degree. I like the innovation taking place with these products, and I believe in informed choice, and freedom of choice. Innovators take risks, as do people who are first to try new things. You believe the level of risk from a health perspective is unacceptable, while I think it is marginal, counter-balanced to some extent by some of the positive properties of the substances themselves, not to mention their legal status -a different type of risk, but something some of us consider important enough to take into consideration.

This thread was started to discuss legal alternatives to AAS. Your arguments basically flame people who have used, or are considering using these products, and discourages them from sharing their experiences both good and bad. Your point is simple enough to understand, no need for exaggerated arguments about nazi experiments, drinking antifreeze, taking a whole bottle of M1T, no PCT, no peer-reviewed studies, blah, blah, blah. Other rational viewpoints exist, so let the discussion move on.

Triple J · Aug 17, 2004

Becoming said:
On a side note I bet some women would feel damn good on say 500g of sust a week....

Does that mean they won't suffer any long term effects?

Oh wait, does RESEARCH tell us that that might be inappropriate?

Hmmmm, maybe we should research things before we use them....!!!

Well I don't need RESEARCH to tell me women should not megadose testosterone, and it is my guess there is not much research on this topic, as common sense does not need research. But for those without common sense, spending money on the RESEARCH may be important.

Now tell me, do you believe the long-term effects of FDA approved drugs are known? That is one of the biggest myths in the drug field, even the AMA has acknowledged it. No way to evaluate for long-term effects other than rats.

georgie24 · Aug 18, 2004

just use real gear

Becoming · Aug 18, 2004

Triple J said:
That's just stupid bro. Taking a whole bottle of M1T? Now who ever said anything about megadosages? who ever said anything about no PCT?

why not take them if they are SAFE? I will concede it is an exaggerated point tho...

Triple J said:
I like the innovation taking place with these products, and I believe in informed choice, and freedom of choice. Innovators take risks, as do people who are first to try new things. You believe the level of risk from a health perspective is unacceptable, while I think it is marginal, counter-balanced to some extent by some of the positive properties of the substances themselves, not to mention their legal status -a different type of risk, but something some of us consider important enough to take into consideration.

I never said that I thought it was not an innovative idea... nor did I ever say it is not POSSIBLE that some truly great products might result...

My ONLY problem is that there are a lot of CLAIMS being made as to safety and effectiveness that are completely baseless and based on SPECULATION alone... yet "PH" backers refuse to admit this...

Triple J said:
This thread was started to discuss legal alternatives to AAS. Your arguments basically flame people who have used, or are considering using these products, and discourages them from sharing their experiences both good and bad.....

Other rational viewpoints exist, so let the discussion move on.

I never flamed people for using, only people that insist that speculation is as valid as scientific experimentation...
According to every school of logic I know of, insisting speculation=science is not RATIONAL to any degree....

Triple J said:
for those without common sense, spending money on the RESEARCH may be important.

Actually those without common sense might INSIST on research...
BTW the reason you know NOT to give women mega-doses is not because of COMMON SENSE..... people did not know that this was bad at one time and actually made that mistake... and it was documented... ever hear of East German women's athletics?

Triple J said:
Now tell me, do you believe the long-term effects of FDA approved drugs are known? That is one of the biggest myths in the drug field, even the AMA has acknowledged it. No way to evaluate for long-term effects other than rats.

Thank you for pointing out that you don't know anything about the pharmaceutical industry and FDA regulations.... Longterm studies are done for a period of several years IN HUMANS before a drug is approved. In addition, follow up studies (including Phase IV clinical trials) are done post approval to ascertain and to act as a safety net AFTER a drugs release.... how do you think drugs get recalled for safety reasons? Longterm effects ARE known and your argument is false. Mistakes are made, but at least there is a net in place to stop damage before it gets too out of hand....

Do the PH companies monitor the health of their customers...? are they keeping logs of how many people are shut-down by their products and for how long? Do they follow up with the bloodwork of each customer? What do they do if adverse reports come in? Do they pull the product? Or do they try to squeeze in as many sales as possible before the ban?

All this has been done with current/previously approved products...

Lets face it this market is all based only on speculation and a market created by the LE initiatives of the government of the US....

How come it seems most people outside the US with access to the "real deal" don't use PH? It is just as good right? But in countries with similar laws you see more people who would use them?

A quick question - when and if the ban on PH does happen, will you continue to use PH, or IF you use, will you use more tried and tested products like test, dbol, etc?

macrophage69alpha · Aug 18, 2004

1. synthesis of traditional steroids is a well defined process- purity is high 99+
2. M1T and 1T among the older of the "legals" still test often at less than 90%

3. mechanism of action of most traditional AAS is decently well explored
4. literally no research on "legals"

5. liver toxicity- these "legals" can cause liver cancer- as was found with many of the AAS that were discarded in the process of developing the few AAS that are sold commercially.
6. note- it took THOUSANDS of AAS synthesized to get the 12 or so that are available today... there were lots of "losers".

IMHO the actual harm and civil legal ramifications of what will come out of this will make the "andro" suits look like chump change. These compounds are literally complete unknowns and most of them are progestins, many strong progestins- as much as the sellers try to deny it.

jcam222 · Aug 18, 2004

macrophage69alpha said:
1. synthesis of traditional steroids is a well defined process- purity is high 99+
2. M1T and 1T among the older of the "legals" still test often at less than 90%

3. mechanism of action of most traditional AAS is decently well explored
4. literally no research on "legals"

5. liver toxicity- these "legals" can cause liver cancer- as was found with many of the AAS that were discarded in the process of developing the few AAS that are sold commercially.
6. note- it took THOUSANDS of AAS synthesized to get the 12 or so that are available today... there were lots of "losers".

IMHO the actual harm and civil legal ramifications of what will come out of this will make the "andro" suits look like chump change. These compounds are literally complete unknowns and most of them are progestins, many strong progestins- as much as the sellers try to deny it.

Could you elaborate on the bulk of the legal items being progestins and what that entails for some of us who are less technically astute? I certainly value your thoughts. You always bring straight forward thoughts with scientific data. It certainly lends itself well to this as a discussion as opposed to the few who would like to turn it into a flame war.

As a side question.....I have seen it said that GD Searle originally developed and has a patent pending for 4-OHT. Does anyone know why they have never taken it to market?

Becoming · Aug 18, 2004

jcam222 said:
As a side question.....I have seen it said that GD Searle originally developed and has a patent pending for 4-OHT. Does anyone know why they have never taken it to market?

Who knows why they haven't taken it to market (there could be infinite reasons)

Patent #2,762,818 is avaliable for view here

"4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT) is a metabolite of the steroidal aromatase inhibitor (used for breast cancer treatment), 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA)..."

4OHA binds weakly to the androgen receptor... but "4OHT binds more strongly and does exhibit androgenic effects in vivo..." (from the article sited below) (so 4OHA also shows androgenic activity because of this metabolite 4OHT which it is converted to in the body)

There is not much data on it in pubmed - but if you look up the paper:

J Enzyme Inhib. 1992;6(2):141-7.

Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.

Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.

I bet it woud lead you to some more data (previous studies where they might discuss its androgenic effects)...

...by the way 4-hydroxytamoxifen (differnt chemical entirely) also goes by the abbreviation 4OHT.... so save yourself the headaches and search under 4-hydroxytestosterone only

Lets open this discussion about legal alternatives to Steroids.

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