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5X5 Journal: A HIT'er Experiment

G

go2failure

New member
Background:

15 Years Training (layoffs here and there due to job/spread out college), lots of athletics during that time including college football

Injuries:

both ankles sprained twice, pulled right hamstring, sprained/strained back 4 years ago (cautious approach to deadlifts)

Gear: N/A

Supplements: PURECEE, Levorex


6'0 221lbs 10% BF

16.75" arms
33.5" waist
17" neck
25.5" thighs
17" calves
12.5" forearms
53.5" chest (over arms)


Being a HIT follower over the past 3 years, I took a look at some of the links madcow provided me and I became interested in trying a DT program. That being said....

I just finished my first week of Madcow's variation of the 5X5. I did not rep test to get these weights, which may set me back, but here is how it went:



Day 1:

Squat (DEEP) 5X5 --> 225
Incline Bench 1X5 --> 135, 155, 185, 205, 225
Row 1X5 --> 95, 115, 135, 155, 175 (think I went to heavy, anyways these are new to me)

Day 2:

Squat (DEEP) 5X5 --> 205
Deadlift (No Straps) 5X5 --> 185 (started new stance)
Military 5X5 --> 95 (lol, was way light)
Pullups 5X5 --> BW (got all reps)

Day 3:

Squat (DEEP) 1X5 --> 235
Incline Bench 5X5 --> 205
Row 5X5 --> 135 (I was able to concentrate more on form with this weight)
 
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I rest quite a while, depending on the lift. DL's I wait like 5-6 minutes, maybe more on the last two sets. Chins I hardly wait (relatively speaking- like 2 minutes). On 1x5 I don't rest much on the way up, but the last one gets a full song on my iPOD to get into my trance before I attack the weight :chomp:,

Not sure if this is "right" but I'd rather wait a tad longer than rush it and miss a lift.
 
Ok, I thought that I may have been rushing it.


I was going to my next set after changing weights for my partner and the completion of his set. Usually about 1:00.

I know I'll have to increase the rest in about a week or 2 as the fatigue sets in.
 
BTW,


I have been doing a under 100 carb per day diet with plenty of protein (sometimes under 50 carbs depending on my schedule and whether or not I worked out that day).


However, I have noticed that I'm much fuller and tighter on 5X5 over just a week.
 
Mainly, I want to be: stronger, fuller and tighter.

I would also like more size on my arms to match my legs and chest size. But, I would not be upset with all around LBM
 
go2failure said:
BTW, what is a good time to rest between sets for this program?
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for strength training the general guidelline I believe is 3-5 minutes
when I do a Cycle type program tho with the lighter weights (early in the Cycle) I don't take that long, more like 2 maybe 3 minutes
as the weights mount I get the full 5 and more if I feel like it
 
I take about 2 minutes in between most sets except maybe the deads where I might take 3 minutes. Anything longer than thay just feels wastefull.
 
go2failure said:
Mainly, I want to be: stronger, fuller and tighter.

I would also like more size on my arms to match my legs and chest size. But, I would not be upset with all around LBM
Click to expand...
Cool. Sounds like you're on track. Personally I'm not huge on macronutrient manipulation- I've started being mindful of simple carbs late at night, but other than that I eat whatever and it doesn't seem to matter what it consists of as long as I don't go overboard. I used to carb-count but since I've stopped I really haven't noticed any appreciable sloppy weight but I sure don't miss worrying about carbs.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Cool. Sounds like you're on track. Personally I'm not huge on macronutrient manipulation- I've started being mindful of simple carbs late at night, but other than that I eat whatever and it doesn't seem to matter what it consists of as long as I don't go overboard. I used to carb-count but since I've stopped I really haven't noticed any appreciable sloppy weight but I sure don't miss worrying about carbs.
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Hopefully things go well, but we'll see.


I'm going to be relocating to another state soon, so I will likely miss either week 5 or 6... I dont know whether I should just pick up where I left off or just start over once i get settled in...
 
You might consider running single factor for a while to gain proficiency in the exercises before running the dual factor program. Madcow advocates having a solid understanding/experience in the movements first. Personally I was new to rowing too, but the other stuff was more-or-less in order (I was a touch-and-go DL'er til about two weeks before running the 5x5). Given your moving situation, it may not be a bad idea to use this time to run it single factor for a bit to solidify your competency in all the exercises used in the program.

Maybe MC will chime in...
 
You already started so just run it through and use the 2x per week deload. When you get settled, start a new volume phase. Shouldn't be a huge deal. I see guiness saying something about 'proficiency in the exercises', you are familiar and have time invested in all or almost all of these lifts right?
 
I wouldn't sweat those too much unless something feels weird to you. Then just scale the single lift appropriately but you should be on track and fine.

Just make sure your back is flat for the rows and they are done with a smooth acceleration curve - jerking from the floor is bad, think about a rower in a crew shell puts oar in the water and pulls with constant acceleration into him, no jerk at the beginning (I know I harp on it but one guy did get hurt because he was new to this movement, didn't realize this, and this program pushes too hard too fast to be forgiving).
 
I'm beginning to wonder how I managed to survive this program. When I started, I'd never deadlifted; not done bent BB rows for maybe a decade and then only with poor form; only been doing any kind of squats for 6 months and I had a known bad back to the extent that I wasn't prepared to do MP and deads in the same program.

If one takes care to listen and feel what's uncomfortable, the body can be a remarkably robust piece of equipment. I do sometimes wonder whether I'd have been better off having run the single-factor but I have no regrets at diving into the DF version which I feel gave me good improvements.
 
MC2,


I picked to high a starting weight and I am having to keep my bench #'s the same. Is it wise to start deloading after week 3 on your variation?
 
go2failure said:
MC2,


I picked to high a starting weight and I am having to keep my bench #'s the same. Is it wise to start deloading after week 3 on your variation?
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No, just keep going. As long as you didn't blow more than the bench it'll be okay.
 
Week 2


Well this week I realized the importance of testing 1RMs and 5RMs before starting a 5X5 program... DUH...

Anyways, I'm feeling soo strong the past few workouts on deep squats. Its as if I've touched muscle I never knew I had and unleashed it. I explode up so strongly now that the bar jerks at the top of the movement, making that nice bar jerking sound. Also my knees aren't aching anymore since I started doing deep, ATF squats.



Day 1:

Squat 5X5 --> 235 (felt stronger)
Incline Bench 1X5 --> 225 (kept the same, barely made it this time)
Rows 1X5 --> 155 (should've started Week 1 at this weight)


Day 2:

Squats 5X5 --> 215 (still feeling strong)
Deadlift 5X5 --> 205 (threw on 20 more lbs, felt good)
Military Press 5x5 --> 115 (harder but still too light)
Pullups 5x5 --> BW (Did 2 sets palms in, & 3 sets palms out--last time I did 5 sets palms in)

Day 3:

Squats 1X5 --> 245 (felt good, I'm not bogging down)
Incline Bench 210 --> 210 (tough, but I squeezed them out)
Rows --> 140 (I'm weak with these, but it's progress)
 
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Madcow2 said:
No, just keep going. As long as you didn't blow more than the bench it'll be okay.
Click to expand...


Good Deal...


I seem to be climbing up on the lower body weights rather easily, and the other lifts are seeing increases which are not overly difficult to finish on.
 
A lot of guys do rows with a flat back, hands down grip, upper body parallel to the floor. This is probably better for hitting the rhomboids.

I prefer the Yates row. Arched back, upper body at 70º angle, reverse grip (palms up), pulling the weight into the waist (not torso).

Here. I googled it: http://www.stumptuous.com/badrow.html
 
Singleton said:
A lot of guys do rows with a flat back, hands down grip, upper body parallel to the floor. This is probably better for hitting the rhomboids.

I prefer the Yates row. Arched back, upper body at 70º angle, reverse grip (palms up), pulling the weight into the waist (not torso).

Here. I googled it: http://www.stumptuous.com/badrow.html
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I used to be able to do these 6-7 years ago, but after my back injury, I feel the weight pulling too hard on my lower back. I make sure I try to keep a arch in my back, but I still get that uncomfortable pull.


After I get my 5X5 deads above 315 lbs, I might try them again.


G2F
 
Singleton said:
A lot of guys do rows with a flat back, hands down grip, upper body parallel to the floor. This is probably better for hitting the rhomboids.

I prefer the Yates row. Arched back, upper body at 70º angle, reverse grip (palms up), pulling the weight into the waist (not torso).

Here. I googled it: http://www.stumptuous.com/badrow.html
Click to expand...

Whoa: Krista! That's a name I've not heard in awhile. I remember her from misc.fitness.weights. Cool, cool woman!
 
upper body is about 20-30 degrees from upright.
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And those pictures match it. I wouldn't even call that a row. 90 degree rows will hit the lats more fully as their function is to pull back into the torso. If you this upright gravity is pulling against your shoulders and that lats just aren't going to get optimal recruitment (I notice Singleton said 70 degrees so at least that's a lot better than the linked description). This and other variations of row and lat recruitment have been studied fairly extensively with EMG work. This is how the Pendlay Row came about (90 degrees, dynamic, from floor, overhand).
 
WEEK 3


DAY 1:

Squat 5x5 --> 245 (started to feel tougher, made all reps)
Incline Bench Press 1X5 --> 230 (barely squeezed these out, still moving up--5lbs per week)
Rows 1X5 --> 160 (feeling stronger in these, getting used to the movement)
ABS --> 3X25 Seated Knee-ins

DAY 2:

Squat 5X5 --> 235 (should've done 225 today--forgot, but no problems)
Deadlift 5X5 --> 225 (progressing well, starting to get harder)
Military Press 5X5 --> 135 (The right weight, next week will be really tough)
Pullups/Chinups 5X5 --> BW (1 set palms in, 4 sets palms out)
ABS --> 3X25 Seated Knee-ins

DAY 3:

Coming soon...
 
Day 3:

Well, because i was not able to do this workout--I will have to start the week 4, Day 1 workout Thursday.

My work schedule has sucked so bad lately that I can not even plan for a evening or morning workout. I also was low on sleep for day 3, so even if I did get the opportunity, I would not have been 100%.


Ahh well, I'll just play the cards I was dealt. Week 4 starts Thursday...
 
Rather than skipping the W3D3 workout, just do it asap and slide the routine back. To regain some of the fatigue you've lost by skipping a day, you might consider doing W3D3, day off, W4D1, day off, day off, W4D2, day off, W4D3 and than take it from there into week5.

This stage of the program is mostly about building up fatigue and so completly skipping a day could cost you most of your benefits, especially if it turns into a 5-day period with no workout. Your body will recover from the fatigue you've already acrued and then you'll be going into week4 too fresh to get best benefits from it.
 
Blut Wump said:
Rather than skipping the W3D3 workout, just do it asap and slide the routine back. To regain some of the fatigue you've lost by skipping a day, you might consider doing W3D3, day off, W4D1, day off, day off, W4D2, day off, W4D3 and than take it from there into week5.

This stage of the program is mostly about building up fatigue and so completly skipping a day could cost you most of your benefits, especially if it turns into a 5-day period with no workout. Your body will recover from the fatigue you've already acrued and then you'll be going into week4 too fresh to get best benefits from it.
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Thanks for the tip, but I'm military and we have our early morning PT days to work around which makes it difficult to workout later in the day. I planned my 5X5 around these days we PT, because it is so draining to do the PT at o' dark thirty, then try to workout later in the day.
 
Well, keep plugging away. I missed my week4 squats after feeling a bad twinge in my quads. I was still very happy with the results. Good luck.
 
Blut Wump said:
Well, keep plugging away. I missed my week4 squats after feeling a bad twinge in my quads. I was still very happy with the results. Good luck.
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Yeah, it REALLY pissed me off to not be able to work out... In fact, because I was so pissed off about it, I had a great Week 4 Day 1 workout.


DAY 1:

Squats 5X5 --> 255 (Getting stronger every workout on Squats, but since I'm new to ATF squats, I'm scared to add more than 10 lbs per workout)
Incline 1X5 --> 235 (Really pushed me to my max, last rep was my last)
Rows 1X5 --> 165 (the last rep on set 5 was definitely my last rep, I barely made it a complete rep)
ABS --> 3X25 Seated Knee-Ins
 
One of the reasons you felt so good was that you'd missed the previous workout and so had grabbed some extra recovery.

Putting that together with what you're saying about not pushing to the max with your squats, give some thought to adding a whole extra week to your loading phase, making it a 5-week loading rather than the usual four. You could keep the Incline and Rows the same if you're hitting the max on those but try for more in everything. Just something to consider, see how this week's deadlifts go.
 
Blut Wump said:
One of the reasons you felt so good was that you'd missed the previous workout and so had grabbed some extra recovery.

Putting that together with what you're saying about not pushing to the max with your squats, give some thought to adding a whole extra week to your loading phase, making it a 5-week loading rather than the usual four. You could keep the Incline and Rows the same if you're hitting the max on those but try for more in everything. Just something to consider, see how this week's deadlifts go.
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Lately my back aches all the time and I feel like I've been hit by a big truck in the morning.

My problem with piling on weight for squats is that I'm not use to doing them ATF. While I could easily throw on 20 lbs a workout and get to where I want to be in a hurry, I want to establish a strong base and take my time with them. After week 9 I will have a better idea of what weight to start with on my next cycle, which will help me find a PR weight next DF cycle.

I can only wonder right now what my numbers would have been had I been doing ATF squats for the past 3 years.
 
I know just what you mean with ATF squats. It's definitely better to maintain your form than pile on too much weight and go back to partial squats.

Glad to hear you're feeling shattered in the mornings. Sounds like you are loading just fine, then. Week5 will be a relief.
 
I really think that the weight reduction you take on squat going ATF is temporary, then your weights improve more rapidly than they would otherwise. When i started going ATF I probably would have failed at 6 reps with 315 (didn't go to failure per se but there wasn't much left after 5) and now I'm certain I could crank out 7 or 8 with 365 ATF. That's over the course of 9 weeks (started ATF before running 5x5) and represents a marked improvement IMO. Not to mention the fact that 365 for 8 reps was my best while on juice in february, and that was only going to parallel. Also, I was ten pounds heavier thanks to the sauce.
 
Week 4 DAY 2:

Squats 5X5 --> 235
Deadlifts --> 245
Military Press: 155X2 , 145X3
CU/PU 5X5: BW, Palms Out

--Squats were not so fresh today, I felt off/weaker
--Deadlifts are still going up (20lbs per week), I'm liking my new stance.
--I went as heavy as I could go today on Military Press, I had to back up 10 lbs on set 3-5.
--My 5 sets at BW on PU/CU were awesome. Today was the strongest I've ever felt doing them before, I'm afraid I'm addicted to them!
 
go2failure said:
Week 4 DAY 2:

Squats 5X5 --> 235
Deadlifts --> 245
Military Press: 155X2 , 145X3
CU/PU 5X5: BW, Palms Out

--Squats were not so fresh today, I felt off/weaker
--Deadlifts are still going up (20lbs per week), I'm liking my new stance.
--I went as heavy as I could go today on Military Press, I had to back up 10 lbs on set 3-5.
--My 5 sets at BW on PU/CU were awesome. Today was the strongest I've ever felt doing them before, I'm afraid I'm addicted to them!
Click to expand...
Seems to me that you're going a tad heavy for the light squat workout. It's week 4 and you're going less than 10% lighter than your 1x5 weight. Still, you'll be deloading soon so no biggie.
 
Absolutely. Wed squat is 10-20% or some range lower and you needn't hold this fixed as many people will let it drift from 10% in week 1 further down towards 15-20% in week 4. You are 10lbs less. This is a bad thing but be glad you are done.

Also, you might want to use Flat bench on M/F next time and save incline/overhead for the Wed workout. Providing you don't have some kind of mitigating injury, the flat bench is a supperior stimulator for upper body mass. Another alternative is slight to low incline benches.
 
Madcow2 said:
Absolutely. Wed squat is 10-20% or some range lower and you needn't hold this fixed as many people will let it drift from 10% in week 1 further down towards 15-20% in week 4. You are 10lbs less. This is a bad thing but be glad you are done.

Also, you might want to use Flat bench on M/F next time and save incline/overhead for the Wed workout. Providing you don't have some kind of mitigating injury, the flat bench is a supperior stimulator for upper body mass. Another alternative is slight to low incline benches.
Click to expand...


Yeah, but the ghetto gov't gym I'm a automatic member of does not have a variable bench press set up. LOL
 
WEEK 4:


DAY 1:

Squats 5X5 --> 255 (Getting stronger every workout on Squats, but since I'm new to ATF squats, I'm scared to add more than 10 lbs per workout)
Incline 1X5 --> 235 (Really pushed me to my max, last rep was my last)
Rows 1X5 --> 165 (the last rep on set 5 was definitely my last rep, I barely made it a complete rep)
ABS --> 3X25 Seated Knee-Ins


DAY 2:

Squats 5X5 --> 235
Deadlifts --> 245
Military Press: 155X2 , 145X3
CU/PU 5X5: BW, Palms Out

--Squats were not so fresh today, I felt off/weaker
--Deadlifts are still going up (20lbs per week), I'm liking my new stance.
--I went as heavy as I could go today on Military Press, I had to back up 10 lbs on set 3-5.
--My 5 sets at BW on PU/CU were awesome. Today was the strongest I've ever felt doing them before, I'm afraid I'm addicted to them!


DAY 3:

Squats 1X5 --> 265 (definitely tougher, I was way out of breath come sets 4 and 5)
Incline Bench Press 5X5 --> 225 (I cant friggin believe I made all sets and reps, I thought it was a shot in the dark based on the past 3 weeks with this exercise)
Rows 5X5 --> 155 (definitely got out of breath and even had to rest pause a few reps towards the end. Definitely took me to the max...)


SUMMARY Week 1-4:

Overall, I am very satisfied with my first loading phase. The increases in weight are very nice, I've gone up at least 20-50 lbs on every lift. I feel very achy at this point in the game, I'm mentally and physically looking forward to the deload/intensity phase. I know the gains are still gonna come and that motivates me even more. Hell, 20-50 lbs lift increase already and I haven't even started the second phase yet?

Looking forward to Thursday...
 
Once again I gotta do the "mandatory fun" in the morning tomorrow. I have to run a 5k , and I have to do it competitively. :rolleyes:


I dont think it'll be a problem though because I'm running in the morning and my deload workout will be in the evening.



MC, does this type of thing effect my deload at all?




g2f
 
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Yeah, I'd assume it does (kind of depends on the individual and their conditioning for that sort of thing, but if you are asking it's safe to assume yes) - nothing horrendous though. I don't know what you had in mind but you might opt for the 2x deload this week and move the training days if needed. See how you feel after the run. A little extra recuperation this week is fine especially if you plan on using the 3x per week intensity protocol later but regardless nothing really to worry about.
 
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WEEK 5 (DELOAD)

Day 1:

Squats 3X3 --> 255 (felt strong enough for 315+, but I'm deloading LOL)
Incline Bench Press 3X3 --> 235 (first 2 sets were easy, but I almost crapped out on last set--I really needed this week!)
Rows 3X3 --> 165 (felt soo much stronger today. Rows are really starting to pick up)
Wrist Rolls --> 2 sets of 3 up/down overhand with 25 lbs and 1 set of 3 underhand up/down with 25lbs.


Workout Summary:

I was so tempted to throw 315 on the squat bar today, but I refrained. Incline Bench started off strong, but I wore out in set three--I know I needed the deload this week for bench. Rows felt better--I think this week was good for rows as well.
 
WEEK 5 (DELOAD)

Day 1:

Squats 3X3 --> 255 (felt strong enough for 315+, but I'm deloading LOL)
Incline Bench Press 3X3 --> 235 (first 2 sets were easy, but I almost crapped out on last set--I really needed this week!)
Rows 3X3 --> 165 (felt soo much stronger today. Rows are really starting to pick up)
Wrist Rolls --> 2 sets of 3 up/down overhand with 30 lbs and 1 set of 3 underhand up/down with 30 lbs.


Workout Summary:

I was so tempted to throw 315 on the squat bar today, but I refrained. Incline Bench started off strong, but I wore out in set three--I know I needed the deload this week for bench. Rows felt better--I think this week was good for rows as well.



Day 2:

Squats -20% 3X3 --> 205 (felt good)
Deadlifts 3X3 --> 245 (felt really light)
Military Press 3X3 --> 145 (felt same as last week, only my shoulders were not aching today)
Pullups 3X3 --> BW
Wrist Rolls --> 2X3 overhand with 30lbs, 1X3 underhand with 30lbs
Abs --> Seated Knee-Ups 5X10-20

Workout Summary:

Felt good overall... I'm glad deadlifts felt stronger, I think my lower back has been getting some good rehab! My shoulders have been aching due to all the work they've gotten, but the aching was noticeably lower today even though I still felt a little drained on military Press. Pullups are still progressing in strength, I'm able to go all the way down and shoot back up now with a palms out grip, so next week I'll add weight.



WEEK 5 Summary:

This week has definitely served its purpose... Next week I will start pushing heavier as far as my weights go. For rows, I will probably stick to a 5-10 lb increase per week, simply to be sure I dont fuck something up in my back. The other lifts should start seeing some nice increases! ;)
 
Week 6


DAY 1:

Squats 3X3 --> 275 (easy, easy, easy)

Incline Bench Press 3X3 --> 245 (should have put more on)

Rows 3X3 -->185 (coming on strong now)

Wrist Rolls --> 2 sets of 3 OH 40 Lbs, 1 set of 3 UH 40lbs (tough, but my forearms are growing like weeds)


Workout Summary:

Felt REALLY strong in comparison to what I was feeling like (car crash victim). All lifts are potentially way above what I did today, but I'm still going to be cautious. Looking forward to Day 2!
 
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Something to consider- i wish I'd have spread weeks 8-9 over three weeks like this: Train tue-fri-tues for "week" 8 and then fri tues fri for "week" 9. I think week 8 would have been even better than it was (it was still really good). I'm in week 9 and i spread it out and I swear it's gonna end up w/ me loading more weight on the bar than otherwise.
 
I suggested it to Jim when he was on his first run. I'd finished mine before his and that was one of the first things which occurred to me. It ends up as a good mix of deload and intensity and keeps you fresh for big lifts in those weeks.
 
go2failure said:
Week 6



Felt REALLY strong in comparison to what I was feeling like (car crash victim). All lifts are potentially way above what I did today, but I'm still going to be cautious. Looking forward to Day 2!
Click to expand...

Something to probably be aware of, coming from a HIT style program this is a lot more workload and a lot more frequency in the core lifts than you are used to (hell, it's a lot more than what just about every non-HIT bber in the big strenuous lifts). This alone can be a recipe for nagging overuse injuries. Combine this with pretty significant strength increases that have the weights shooting up and the requirement to be lifting at max capacity and loading heavily and it can really have the potential to beat on you.

Keep track of how you feel and don't push harder than you feel comfortable with. I see you are already using the 2x deload. That's probably a good idea and just play it safe. If you run this again (and from what you've posted it looks like you've gotten some solid results so I can't see why you wouldn't want to), you'll probably handle it a lot better with fewer aches and pains. I probably wouldn't push hard into a 3x deloading/intensity type phase and peak your lifts at this point although it might be something you want to experiment with next time when the loading phase is more easily tolerable - you want to be careful with how you treat your body since you only have one.

You might also check out the 'Beyond the 5x5 - Planning Your Training Cycles' link in the TOC of my thread. This will give you a good structure for incorporating other work (maybe you want to use some higher rep HIT work for a period, maybe a 4 week speciality cycle focusing on weak points in XYZ or some such) into a cohesive macro structure. Granted I'm not the biggest fan of HIT on a constant basis but a period of HIT style work from time to time in higher rep ranges (for me that means north of 6) can be beneficial especially if you've responded well to it in the past. A lot of the neural efficiency you'll develop in this program and in the triples can yield some big dividends as it builds capcity into higher rep ranges.

Just some random thoughts but so far everything looks good and I'm glad it worked for you.
 
Madcow2 said:
Something to probably be aware of, coming from a HIT style program this is a lot more workload and a lot more frequency in the core lifts than you are used to (hell, it's a lot more than what just about every non-HIT bber in the big strenuous lifts). This alone can be a recipe for nagging overuse injuries. Combine this with pretty significant strength increases that have the weights shooting up and the requirement to be lifting at max capacity and loading heavily and it can really have the potential to beat on you.

Keep track of how you feel and don't push harder than you feel comfortable with. I see you are already using the 2x deload. That's probably a good idea and just play it safe. If you run this again (and from what you've posted it looks like you've gotten some solid results so I can't see why you wouldn't want to), you'll probably handle it a lot better with fewer aches and pains. I probably wouldn't push hard into a 3x deloading/intensity type phase and peak your lifts at this point although it might be something you want to experiment with next time when the loading phase is more easily tolerable - you want to be careful with how you treat your body since you only have one.

You might also check out the 'Beyond the 5x5 - Planning Your Training Cycles' link in the TOC of my thread. This will give you a good structure for incorporating other work (maybe you want to use some higher rep HIT work for a period, maybe a 4 week speciality cycle focusing on weak points in XYZ or some such) into a cohesive macro structure. Granted I'm not the biggest fan of HIT on a constant basis but a period of HIT style work from time to time in higher rep ranges (for me that means north of 6) can be beneficial especially if you've responded well to it in the past. A lot of the neural efficiency you'll develop in this program and in the triples can yield some big dividends as it builds capcity into higher rep ranges.

Just some random thoughts but so far everything looks good and I'm glad it worked for you.
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MC,

Thanks for the tips!

I was thinking of keeping the 2X all the way through week 9, would this be advisable for someone like myself? ... Is 3X really necessary for me or is 2X good enough for now? Kind of confused on which direction to go, although I have no probs just finishing up through week 9 with 2X.


Honestly, it is wild to see myself getting so much stronger week in/week out just doing 2X per week. This program WORKS....
 
go2failure said:
MC,

Thanks for the tips!

I was thinking of keeping the 2X all the way through week 9, would this be advisable for someone like myself? ... Is 3X really necessary for me or is 2X good enough for now? Kind of confused on which direction to go, although I have no probs just finishing up through week 9 with 2X.


Honestly, it is wild to see myself getting so much stronger week in/week out just doing 2X per week. This program WORKS....
Click to expand...
So the 3x per week is actually like a double barreled loading phase - hence you are peaking out to records and need to be more careful managing your recovery between the periods. Consider weeks 1-2 sort of prep work/accomodation, 3-4 heavy loading, 5 deload, 6-7 accomodation, 8-9 heavy loading. Recovery between 3-4 and 8-9 is critical here and can easily get blown.

The 2x per week is totally separate and basically deloading/modest peaking of strength in the triples. You only do this for 2-3 weeks and step back into the volume phase. There are no records or anything else, although you can fairly easily extend down into doubles or singles if you want to hit some big lifts before starting again.

The choice is sort of yours. If you feel up to it, after week 6 (or during if it's not too much) transitoin into the 3x per week for weeks 7, 8, and 9. You'll probably need to deload again for at least a week before beginning another volume phase. In the initial post I was more concerned about the possibility of developing overuse injuries since this training is a bit of a departure and you sounded a bit beat up (only you can judge this but I want you to be aware that overuse injuries can develop with large increases in workload and strength - you see this in roid users somewhat commonly if they aren't careful).

I have to pay you a compliment, so many BBers that follow HIT routines are so caught up in the dogma of it all that it becomes something of a religion to them rather than methodology for progress. I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of intelligent, well balanced, and knowledgable HIT guys (PSU's strength coach comes to mind although his name escapes me) but on these forums you tend to get the very narrow minded Jedi type especially in the BBing realm. It's kind of refreshing to see someone coming from HIT that is primarily interested in learning, making progress, and willing to try new things (providing they make sense of course and aren't some moronic Flex mag stuff). I'm not trying to convert anyone or get anyone to renounce HIT (hell, it obviously can work and has worked reasonably well for people - and certainly can be efficient from a time standpoint depending on the goal) but it's a really refreshing change to see someone not totally caught up in the ideology and dogma, interested in learning, and willing to work hard at their improvement. These are admirable traits in anyone but it's especially nice to see someone using their brain rather than requoting Mentzer as if his was the final word on all things strength and hypertrophy.
 
Ok, I though I has this figured out but now I'm not so sure.

Weeks 1-4, 3x a week 5x5
Week 5, 2x a week 3x3
Weeks 6-9 3x aweek 3x3

Is this right or no?
 
ErnieScar said:
Ok, I though I has this figured out but now I'm not so sure.

Weeks 1-4, 3x a week 5x5
Week 5, 2x a week 3x3
Weeks 6-9 3x aweek 3x3

Is this right or no?
Click to expand...

No, don't go by what's in my post above as I'm giving him options to deviate based upon what he feels he can handle.

Weeks 1-4 are always 3x per week 5x5 and 1x5 (some people might start very light and run this for 6 weeks to build up but either way, records are in the final 2 weeks)

Now there are two ways you can run the next part

Weeks 5-6 or 5-7 with 2x per week 3x3 (bump up the weight week to week if you get your sets and reps and then start the volume again).

OR

Weeks 5-9 with 3x per week 3x3 and 1x3 with records in the final two weeks (this is a more gruelling and harder to manage option, likely need a week or 2 before stepping back into volume again).
 
Madcow2 said:
Weeks 5-6 or 5-7 with 2x per week 3x3 (bump up the weight week to week if you get your sets and reps and then start the volume again).
Click to expand...

MC,

That was the direction I was thinking of going, because of my relocation/moving starting tomorrow.

So with this direction... Do the 2X, keep adding weight until my gains stop week in/week out (about week 7-8), then transition to back volume?

BTW, thank you for the compliment. I'm just grateful you were willing to help along the way! :)
 
go2failure said:
MC,

That was the direction I was thinking of going, because of my relocation/moving starting tomorrow.

So with this direction... Do the 2X, keep adding weight until my gains stop week in/week out (about week 7-8), then transition to back volume?

BTW, thank you for the compliment. I'm just grateful you were willing to help along the way! :)
Click to expand...
That's a thought. Generally most just jump back into a volume phase after 2-3 weeks of strength and deloading (i.e. the 2x). Then again, if it fits your current lifestyle and you feel you are making really good progression there's no reason not to continue it for another week or so. Specifically if you haven't done a lot of work in triples and such you might really find some good benefits to training in this rep range. That said the total volume tends to be low so you aren't really taxing the body too much - in effect leaving something on the table so to speak.

Basically, go by feel and do what you want. Training is as much art as science and the state and goals of a given individual is largely deterministic as to what is appropriate or best at any given time.
 
WEEK 6


DAY 2:

Squats 3X3 --> 225
Deadlifts 3X3 --> 275
Military Press 3X3 --> 155
Pullups 3X3 --> BW + 10
 
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WEEK 6


DAY 2:

Squats 3X3 --> 225 (Felt like they should've, I'd been driving for 3 days, 8-12 hrs a day and I'm a mile up in elevation LOL)

Deadlifts 3X3 --> 275 (Felt easy by the time I was done with squats. Let me remind everyone that I started with 185)

Military Press 3X3 --> 155 (Felt good, should thrown 165 on there)

Pullups 3X3 --> BW + 10 (20 lbs would have been more challenging)


Workout Summary:

Yesterday I felt strong after 2 set of squats, but then the higher elevation hit me. I was still strong, just out of breath for about 3 mins. After I caught my second wind, I started getting back into the groove.

Deadlifts are just going up in weight like mad. Pullups too... Military press is getting stronger (usually I stick). I think I'm still catching the deload growth, so I'm going to keep riding it with heavier weights. Start Week 7 tomorrow.
 
go2failure - how is your weight gain? You've put a lot of weight on your lifts and while hypertrophy and increased capacity isn't perfectly linear over the short-term, jusging by the increases you should be seeing some significant changes in your development and overall muscle mass.
 
12 JUN 05 Stats

Injuries:

both ankles sprained twice, pulled right hamstring, sprained/strained back 4 years ago (cautious approach to deadlifts)

Gear: N/A

Supplements: PURECEE, Levorex


6'0 221lbs 10% BF

16.75" arms (cold)
33.5" waist
17" neck
25.5" thighs
17" calves
12.5" forearms (cold)
53.5" chest (over arms)

----------------------------


20 Jul 05 Stats:

17" Arms (cold)
34" Waist (atlhough I ate a 1 lb burger with fries earlier in the day and a full course breakfast+desert 30 mins ago)
17" Neck
26" Thighs
17.5" Calves
13" Forearms (cold)
55.5" Chest (around arms, I do it this way to see the difference between my waist and outermost upperbody)

weight = ??? dont know, I'll edit it tomorrow

Diet - Just about anything protein rich lately (steaks, burgers, chicken) and no cardio for the past 2 weeks.

Gear = NONE

Supplements - PURECEE, Levorex

I have noticed big time composition changes, even though I'm bloated a little from all the food I'm stuffing down. 1-2 weeks of carb depletion and I could have NICE abs with much more pronounced muscularity. I'm probably 9-11% BF range, but its hard to tell with the bloat I have from all the carbs and junk food.
 
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WEEK 7

DAY 1:

Squats 3X3 --> 295 (felt tougher, but still all 9 reps no probs)

Incline 3X3 --> 265, 255, 255 (got all reps first set, but almost failed so I lowered the weight--255 is still 10 more lbs than last time)

Rows 3X3 --> 205 (definitely a good weight--I added 20lbs from last time, I will add only 5-10 lbs next week)

Wrist Rolls --> 2 sets OH X 3 with 45 lbs, 1 set UH X3 with 45 (Still 45 lbs, but damn... its not like rolling it up 3 1/2 feet is easy or anything.

Workout Summary:

All core lifts were easy except for set 1 incline, but I was being stupid with adding 20lbs, so that was my own doing. I will do 265 for all 3 sets next week and do not anticipate any problems moving it. I will add 20 more lbs to squats and 5-10 more pounds to rows.
 
MC:

Next week will tell me if I'm getting stronger or if I need to start volume again. So far, I've been very pleased will my results. My body has gained some size and muscularity and I've replaced fat with muscle. I am extremely impressed with the amount of strength I've gained over the past 7 weeks.
 
Week 7

DAY 2:

Squat 3x3 --> 245 (good light squat day)
Deadlift 3X3 --> 295 (No problems standing up with it 9 times on a 20 lbs increase)
Military Press 3X3 --> 165 (Got all 9 reps on a 10 lb increase)
Pullups 3X3 --> BW + 25 (got all reps, but last rep was almost to failure on a 15lb increase)
Wrist Rolls --> 2X3 OH w/ 45lbs, 1X3 UH w/ 45 lbs (tough today after deads and pullups)

Workout Summary:

Strength is still surging, I'll keep up this 2 day per week workout until my weight increases stop. I'm glad I'm deadlifting a 1RM over 315 again. I know I am because of how I stood up with 295. I've never done pullups with extra weight before in my life, so this week was the second week in a row I've done it has really made me feel like a million bucks. Hopefully, I'll be able to do them next week with the 35.


BTW, MC:

I currently weigh 218, so I lost 3 lbs since I started the 5X5. However, I low carbed until 2-3 weeks ago. LIke I posted before, I've really changed the way I look, so I know I've lost fat and gained muscle based on my measurements and the way I look in the mirror
 
go2failure said:
BTW, MC:

I currently weigh 218, so I lost 3 lbs since I started the 5X5. However, I low carbed until 2-3 weeks ago.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you - when you are making serious strength gains it really pays to be eating for muscle. That's the first 5 weeks basically. Carbs really help with the gains and eating enough calories to gain weight not not be losing it is just essential.

Well, you are lighter but almost every measurment is up significantly so you got some solid body recomposition going on and that's pretty staggering considering you started at 10% bodyfat and around this mark and below pulling this off becomes almost impossible and really slashes potential muscle gain.

I guess there's no point in thinking about how much muscle you may have packed on if you were working in caloric surplus the whole time but seeing you managed that feat starting at 10% and actually restricted calories as evidence by weight loss - it makes me really wonder. At the same time if you feel strongly about adding muscle I think you are really better off not knowing though.

Still, starting at 10%, under caloric restriction as evidenced by net weight loss, increasing measurements significantly and getting a lot stronger is a real testament to your efforts here. You had to work hard to make that happen - I'm definitely impressed given the conditions you put yourself under.
 
Madcow2 said:
I'll tell you - when you are making serious strength gains it really pays to be eating for muscle. That's the first 5 weeks basically. Carbs really help with the gains.

Well, you are lighter but almost every measurment is up significantly so you got some solid body recomposition going on and that's pretty staggering considering you started at 10% bodyfat and around this mark and below pulling this off becomes almost impossible and really slashes potential muscle gain.

I guess there's no point in thinking about how much muscle you may have packed on if you were working in caloric surplus the whole time but seeing you managed that feat starting at 10% and actually restricted calories as evidence by weight loss - it makes me really wonder. At the same time if you feel strongly about adding muscle I think you are really better off not knowing though.

Still, starting at 10%, under caloric restriction as evidenced by net weight loss, increasing measurements significantly and getting a lot stronger is a real testament to your efforts here. You had to work hard to make that happen.
Click to expand...

MC,

Thanks for the tips!

Yeah, I had to make a decision on what I wanted when I started and I decided to focus on the strength and hardness benefits I could obtain if the program worked. Well, it did work and I know that if I start over again with the volume I'll probably eat my family out of house and home.

I chose the hardness/strength because I will be seeing my wife and son for the second time in 10 months next week and I wanted to look good just for that occasion. I've only been "stuffing" myself recently to try and catch a little growth rebound and volumization.

All things considered and experienced. I will do it the right way with the diet being positive caloric expenditure and the weights being more accurate 5RM sets. I want to thank you for your encouragement and , yes, mentorship throughout the program. I can imagine that seeing the same old bullshit about 40 sets every workout 4 days a week can make you annoyed. I'm just glad you cared enough to share your knowledge with everyone here.


EDITED TO ADD:

BTW MC, next time I start with volume I wont have to deal with moving/relocating and missing workout days. It should be a more regimented and productive schedule IMHO.
 
WEEK 8


DAY 1:

SQUATS 3x3 --> 315 (20lbs more than last time and still going)
INCLINE BENCH PRESS 3x3 --> 265 (got all 9, barely)
ROWS 3x3 --> 215 (tough, but got all reps)
SEATED KNEE-INS --> 100 REPS
WRIST ROLLS --> 2x3 OH w/45 , 1x3 UH w/45 (rolled it up much faster this time and got a HUGE pump)


Workout Summary:

I could try another week with this 2 day per week version of Deload/Intensity. I'm still gaining and I dont see the need to stop doing it if that's the case. Squat actually required some effort this time. I felt good and strong today. Next week will be week 9 and I am thoroughly satisfied up to this point.
 
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go2failure said:
MC,



I chose the hardness/strength because I will be seeing my wife and son for the second time in 10 months next week and I wanted to look good just for that occasion. I've only been "stuffing" myself recently to try and catch a little growth rebound and volumization.

Snip

BTW MC, next time I start with volume I wont have to deal with moving/relocating and missing workout days. It should be a more regimented and productive schedule IMHO.
Click to expand...

Ahh, I forgot about that. I'm actually almost certainly to relocate in the fairly soon and it could be anywhere in North America or as far as London. No doubt, I'll be away from home until I can get the family there and deal with housing. Hopefully it won't be 10 months or anything on that scale.

Anyway, really glad you are pleased. You certainly worked hard at it.
 
Madcow2 said:
Ahh, I forgot about that. I'm actually almost certainly to relocate in the fairly soon and it could be anywhere in North America or as far as London. No doubt, I'll be away from home until I can get the family there and deal with housing. Hopefully it won't be 10 months or anything on that scale.

Anyway, really glad you are pleased. You certainly worked hard at it.
Click to expand...

Well I'm still going. I'll be sure to give final summary and measurements.

:)
 
1RMs

Squats --> 385 (deep, but not not ATF... I could have gone heavier)

Deadlift --> 345 (proud of this, I want to get to 405 though... For having a bad injury to my back 4 years ago I'm happy)

Incline Bench --> 285

Military Press --> 185

Flat Bench --> 335

Rows --> 245
 
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Good work. IMO it looks like you need to work on bringing your military and row more in line with your bench. I would think that that will happen naturally enough with a solid program like 5x5 or whatever else you end up with.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Good work. IMO it looks like you need to work on bringing your military and row more in line with your bench. I would think that that will happen naturally enough with a solid program like 5x5 or whatever else you end up with.
Click to expand...


Thanks!

I'm hoping to MP 225 by the end of my next 5x5 cycle.
 
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