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Bye-bye BBing BS: Journal of my 5x5 a la madcow2

Guinness5.0

Guinness5.0

New member
Catchy title, eh? That'll be changed soon I imagine but it's late and I'm not at my most clever. Anywho, I got to page ten of the monster 5x5 thread and was sold. I'm now on Monday of week two of the program. So far I love it even though I managed to get a tad optimistic on the starting weights despite madcow's ample warnings.

Here's a summary of week one:

MON
Squat 5x5: 315
Bench 5x5 (yup I 5x5'd bench when I should have 1x5'd it): 255
Row( same as above): 225
abs
couple sets of BW dips

WED
Squat 5x5: 285
Standing military 5x5: 155
Deadlift 5x5: 345
Chins 5x5: bw
abs

FRI
Squat 1x5: 345
Bench 5x5: 255
Row 5x5: 225
abs

TODAY
Squat 5x5: 325
Bench 1x5: 275
Row 1x5: 245
abs
 
keep it simple and you'll outgrow most conventional BB routines...its true. overthinking and over isolating leads to wasting time and effort. overload is the key.
 
I considered aborting upon the realization that I overshot my weights, but I didn't drastically overdo it so I'll just barely bump the weight up and hope I'm not dibilated by week 4. We'll see...

So far I'm loving this. No fluff, just heavy iron. I've never properly prformed BB rows before so I'm pretty excited about how my back will fill out.

I guess I should post some stats. I'm 25, 6 ft tall, 246 as of the monday I started, around 17% bf (maybe less) and I've done two cycles, the most recent being a 7 weeker of prop and tren that ended in early feb. I'm done with drugs for a long time (probably for good, but I can't say for sure).

The goal with this is to get strong. I've come to the realization that I'm no bodybuilder. I train because I like to train, not to look good (though it's a pleasant side) and to be strong. It's funny because though my lifts aren't impressive (yet), they're awesome for the gym I work out at cuz nobody even performs these lifts.
 
Anyone actually acknowledge all the alliteration adorning the post title? :FRlol:

Seriously though, good for you. It's nice to see more and more people try out a program that is based on the Dual Factor theory.

Your starting weights shouldn't be too taxing for you. Hopefully you'll be fortunate enough to make it through week four.
 
i think you'll like the results of the heavy basics. like i alluded to earlier, too my trainees get too wrapped up in overthinking things and dont dont allow the weight to do the talking for their physique. you, like myself, have realized that the stage and oil and protan aren't the way we want to go, and have realized that its the thrill of performance and improvement that keep us going. i wish more would find this early on in their weightlifting "careers". it allows for pure and simple work ethics to be built instead of dreams of "finishing touches" when they arent in order, mass construction is more the case.

sorry to rant....too much alcohol.
 
Don't worry about having started too high. It's not ideal and might mean that you get loaded a shade early but it won't do any harm.

I started my bench weights too high but repeating a week with the same weights puts you pretty much right back on track.

Good luck with the rest of the program. I'd rather be strong than pretty any day (within reason, Mr. Hyde would be too far).
 
When it comes down to it building muscle is building muscle. If you want to get on stage and be a BBer (just leave out genetics), you need a lot of muscle and you use diet to get you in condition. Most people involved in BBing are concerned with adding muscle and getting bigger, granted people want symmetry too but aside from some occasional isolation work to improve some weak points this is largely genetic and they are more concerned with adding muscle than tweaking some proportionality (at least what is actually fixable like not adding a peak to your bicepts).

It primarily about the foundation, plenty of people on this board can get pretty lean but what stops them from competing at a given level most times is just the amount of muscle. This is even more important for a novice in that they don't yet have anything to refine so they need to be almost totally concerned with building up their foundation.This is just a really efficient way to get strong over reasonable hypertrophy set/rep volume in the big lifts that really drive fully body growth. Hypertrophy isn't linear over the short term but over the mid/long term pushing up your squat, dead, bench, row, and overhead in 5x5 or similar ranges will drive hypertrophy. The better the stimulus the better the results, the more efficient the stimulus the more efficient the results.

Good luck with the program. You'll be fine with the starting weights, just move ahead and adjust on the fly as necessary to leave yourself with 2 weeks of record or near near-limit/limit lifting at the end.

EDIT: also Guiness5.0 - I just had the table of contents on the first page of the thread updated. I've linked just about all the important stuff so it can save you a lot of time rather than reading through page by page which gets more and more onerous as the thread grows.
 
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Thanks for the well-wishing bros. I read this site religiously but don't feel the urge to post much (looks like I'm averaging 11 posts/month). Madcow's generosity and knowledge make it futile for me to do so anyway hehe.

If I come acrosss a digital camera I'll take before and afters. I'm decently big already so if this throws on 10-15 pounds I'll be truly amazed. Like I said, I'm more in it for the strength but of course hypertrophy is gonna come as well.

I should mention that I work at a gym selling memberships, training, tanning and supps. It's kinda funny because I'm bigger than all the trainers and I'm the only salesperson/manager who even works out. It's a good gig though as I am constantly surrounded by gorgeous women who are wearing tiny shorts and asking me for advice. Could be worse.
 
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yeah, it could be worse you could get fat guys and 18 year old kids asking for advice..then completely ignoring it and doing 100's of sets with light weights.

good man, I think you'll have to cut volume once you get a bit stronger but its a definite step in the right direction :)
 
Tweakle said:
yeah, it could be worse you could get fat guys and 18 year old kids asking for advice..then completely ignoring it and doing 100's of sets with light weights.

good man, I think you'll have to cut volume once you get a bit stronger but its a definite step in the right direction :)
Click to expand...
This is just his first week from the madcow 5x5 dual-factor program. It uses a 5x5 form for the first four weeks with ever increasing weight aiming to hit PRs on all exercises in both weeks 3 and 4 and then switches over to 3x3 for another five weeks with ever-increasing weight aiming for PRs in weeks 8 and 9.
 
Since I know Tweakle has a good dead, I'll add that those pulling over double bodyweight for the duration of the program generally scale down that lift to 3x3 for the duration. Stronger lifters might also break out the Wed workout into 2 sessions or separate days if it gets too taxing.

The whole idea behind loading/deloading is that the initial volume is meant to be too much. It can't be sustained for more than a fixed number of weeks before dropping someone into overtaining. You scale right to the point of overreaching and then deload. The body can handle a lot more load over a short period than it can over an infinite one so this manipulation of accrued fatigue results in delayed compensation/adaptation - a rebound like effect which shows up in the deload period. This is a quick and dirty explanation: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3
 
Tweakle said:
yeah, it could be worse you could get fat guys and 18 year old kids asking for advice..then completely ignoring it and doing 100's of sets with light weights.
Click to expand...
I get that a lot too but I block it out of memory. I choose to save my alcohol-mangled brain cells for the short-shorts girls.
 
Week 2

WEDNESDAY

Squat 5x5- 275
Standing Military 5x5- 165
Deadlift- 345
Chins- 5x5
abs


Comments:

-I lowered the squat weight a bit so as to have a bit more in the tank for deads. I think it was a good move.

-I'm totally new to standing military. I find that the initial porion of the lift to be much more difficult than the top half. I imagine that this will shift once I become acclimated to the exercise. Sound right? Seriously, once I got it part way up it shot up to lockout. As of a few weeks ago I was using 100 pound dbs for 6-8 reps on seated presses so there seems to be some imbalance between stability and pure shoulder strength. I should probably add that this week felt easier than last week on this lift.

-Weight is the same this week for deads but quality improved greatly. I thought I was deadlifting fine when I started a few years back, but I was starting from a standing position (loaded the plates while the bar was on the hooks in the power rack) and then dong touch-and-go from there, so I've got lots of room for improvement. Once the bar is past my knees it feels damn near weightless at 345. BTW I was using 405 for 8 reps at the end of my touch-and-go days. I'll bump it ten pounds next week.
 
Week 2

FRIDAY

Squat 1x5- 225, 275, 295, 315, 355 (only got 4)
Bench 5x5- 265
Row 5x5- 235 (only got 4 on last two sets- grip limited)

Comments:

-I thought squats would be no problem at all. I'm really surprised at how difficult 355 was. I was seeing stars and shit by the fourth rep. I suppose if I had a spotter I'd have done another, but it was rough alone so I quit rather than pass out. Honestly, my focus wasn't dead-on like usual and I think that was the difference. All the sets leading up to 355 felt odd. Maybe I'm getting loaded up already?

-Bench was great- tough but never a doubt that I'd get my reps. Since I'd been avoiding barbell bench for a while, I was forced to be conservative, and strength seems to be returning in this movement at an ideal rate with regard to the timing and incremental increases of the 5x5 system.

-Rows surprised me as last week was no sweat grip-wise but I just dropped the damn bar on the last rep of the last two sets. I don't even bring my straps to the gym anymore, but I guess I'll have to start.

-I'm up to 250 so far, and bf has increased just perceptibly.
 
Week 3

MONDAY

Squat 5x5: 335
Bench 1x5: 135, 185, 225, 275, 295 (for 4)
Row 1x5: 135, 185, 195, 225, 255


Comments:

-skipped abs as I had to meet the family to see Star Wars, which was awesome (the movie, not skipping abs).

-great day. Focus was back and I think I had an epiphony on squats- my third, fourth, and fifth sets were easier than my first two sets. I just seemed to hit a groove. Seemed like a coordination thing. The movement just kinda smoothed out for me.

-I failed on bench. No biggie though. I'll get it for 5 next week then I'll be putting up 3 wheels during the intensity phase.

-I was pumped from bench so I got a tad aggressive on the rows. The last rep wasn't pretty, but it wasn't awful either. All in all a great day and a promising start to week 3.
 
Week 3

WEDNESDAY

Squat 5x5: 275
Standing military: 175x5, 175x5, 175x5, 175x4, 155x5
Deadlift: 355 for 5x5, then 375x1, then failed 405x1
Chins 5x5: BW

Comments:

-I've actually got some DOMS from squatting. I flew through them because I figured that the light weights aren't gonna load me up if they're not difficult at all. Just about a minute or so between sets. It was kinda tough. Question (if anyone's still reading this): would it be better to increase the weight and the rest interval, or do as I did today?

-I thought OHP would be fine, but then again weight is inceasing fastest on this exercise in terms of percentage, so failing ain't too bad I suppose.

-I anticipated DL's being fairly easy today, and I was right. Switching from touch-and-go to true DEADlift showcased the weakness in my ability to break the floor, but it's coming around. I got OWNED by 365 the first time I tried it properly about 4 weeks ago, and that was one week after using 405 for 8. 375 was fairly easy for the single- just a split second of hesitation at the bottom , then up, up and away (hehe). 405 went about two inches off the ground and stalled- basically exactly the way 365 felt when I failed with it earlier (and I was fresh then). Question: Is it an awful idea to do these singles at the end, keeping in mind that the only difficult part of DL'ing at my 5x5 weight is the initial phase of the movement?

-Another good day. Can't wait to DL next week. Please feel free to comment/ask questions BTW.
 
Hey madcow2,

Hopefully you're keeping an eye on me and I wanted to ask you if doing some heavy rack pulls from the lowest power rack setting would be beneficial in speeding things up for my deadlift poundage. I realize that DL is the most taxing movement in terms of loading/recovery, but in my case the upper half of the movement is EASY for now, so this may be affecting the amount of loading I'm receiving. I have zero overtraining symptoms as of now, and don't feel like this is tougher (in terms of fatigue upon completion of the workout and recovery upon the following day, which I realize are subjective parameters) than my previous bodybuilding split yet, but I was doing tons of compound movements for each bodypart and working out for an hour and a half easily every time.

So to specify, I was thinking rack pulls (something along the lines of 2-3 triples with 20-30 lbs more than my working weight) following DL's next week might speed things a tad. Or conversely, would it be better to, say, load the bar up with 25's and pull from extra low to boost my initial pull? Or should I just let things progress on their own? Thanks in advance.
 
I guess it's a little late but you want to avoid pulling heavy singles in the dead specifically. It doesn't seem harder but failing on the dead is a big CNS drain. Everyone's dead is stronger in one portion of the pull than another, yours is weak at the bottom and compounded by the old touch and go. Live with it for now - such is the consequence of your training and rack pulls aren't going to change it right now. The best way to get better at this is to train lower, standing on a set of 45lbs plates, using 25's or 35's rather than 45's, or using a snatch grip (out super wide - mine is almost collar to collar). This might not be something you want to do right now but think about it for later. If you want to get more stimulus from lighter weight, focus on accelerating the bar and keep it moving through the dead. Alternatively, clean pulls can work here too but they'd likely be very heavy for you.

Also, you aren't looking for overtraining symptoms, the goal is overreaching not overtraining per se. Overreaching is just on the cusp of overtraining where fatigue isn't too bad yet and performance hasn't seriously degraded. If you were fatigued the 2nd workout of week 3 there'd be a problem.

Don't rush the squats, 1 minute between sets is going to make these a lot harder and more taxing. The point is just to add some volume, you need your strength for the important workouts. I'm not saying take 5 minutes but 2-3 is appropriate for these.

Worry less about the small stuff. After you have finished the volume phase completely, have deloaded and are a good way into the intensity phase (if you choose to run the 3x protocol - can't remember) if you believe you weren't adequately taxed you can then consider adding volume to the Friday workout in the form of adjusting the number of constant weight sets rather than ramping the weight set to set.
 
You'll be fine. It's like only squatting 1/2 way down. Someday, you have to bite the bullet and drop the weight for a while - trying to patch things with some partial squats thrown in isn't the best way to go about it. Pretty soon though the weight is back up and it's all but forgotten.
 
Blut Wump said:
Good point. When weight is your measuring stick, it's easy to let the numbers dominate your thinking.
Click to expand...

Plus 405 looks BAD ASS sitting on the floor. It'd look even better about three feet off the floor though :)
 
Week 3

FRIDAY

Squat 1x5: 225, 275, 315, 335, 355
Bench 5x5: 275
Row 5x5: 245
abs

Comments:

-Squat was great. I missed it last week but got it no problem today.

-Bench was great. For some reason the first set was the toughest. I guess I just nutted-up for the next four sets. So much of my lifting success depends on my mindstate. I really wonder how much potential I have just in terms of focusing more, or perhaps just being confident that the weights will move. Deep thoughts :rolleyes:

-Rows were no problem with straps. Probably could have used last weeks 1x5 weight.

-I can't freaking wait to deadlift again. I'm gonna get 375 5x5 and then be on pace to triple 405 by week 9. Hopefully I'll have some rubber coated bumper plates by next week- my gym only has those damn hexagon shaped plates which blow if one lands on a corner and pitches forward/backward.
 
Week 4

MONDAY

Squat 5x5: 345
Bench 1x5: 185, 225, 245, 275, 295 x 2 then 3 forced
Row 1x5: 185, 205, 225, 245, 255
abs
BB curls: 100x10, 110x8, 100x9

Comments:

-Squats were great.

- :confused: Bench sucked. Worse than last week. Very dissappointed. Though the guy spotting just barely helped at the bottom, it's still a failure. Last week I got four with ZERO help.

-Rows were good, but I didn't move up. I probably should have at least tried but I though two failures in one day would be worse than not ramping.

- I did curls becasue my arms have clearly gotten smaller since I started this. Loved the pump (had to say it madcow, hehe).
 
Direct arm training is fine. Although your arms will get smaller they will come back bigger provided you get bigger. You loose the maximized, flushed out look but it won't impede long term upper arm development. This will be especially true for those whos biceps/tricepts might have been overdeveloped relative to their bench/rowing power. It also sounds like you could use with some deloading soon. Lucky it's week 4.
 
Yes, I'm glad it's week 4 now. My hips and low back are fried. I'm still a little up in the air on how to handle the intensity phase. I know I'll deload at 2x, and I'm thinking I should probably do intensity at 2x, but the thought of working out twice a week borders on sacrelige in my head. Maybe I just need a push...

Hey blut wump, you did 3x during intensity and wish you had done 2x, right?
 
If you want to do the 3x - most people are fine in week 5/6 (you can even keep the weight constant or even an incremental decrease/increase in week 6 for some extra recovery). It's when it gets out to the next set of heavy loading in weeks 8/9. Some people may not have recovered enough to push that hard again and keep intensity scaling.

You'll be beaten by the end of week 4 - and that's good. The deload even at 3x is going to seem like a vacation and you'll begin to get your snap back fairly soon. Maybe see how it goes and then make the decision on whether or not to further decrease frequency further out. A few people who enjoyed the top sets of 3 (i.e. 1x3) just spread the final two weeks over a 3 week period or some such. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Yes, I'm glad it's week 4 now. My hips and low back are fried. I'm still a little up in the air on how to handle the intensity phase. I know I'll deload at 2x, and I'm thinking I should probably do intensity at 2x, but the thought of working out twice a week borders on sacrelige in my head. Maybe I just need a push...

Hey blut wump, you did 3x during intensity and wish you had done 2x, right?
Click to expand...
I did 3x per week and was happy with it at the time. I was fried again at the end, though, and got through week9 mostly on willpower. This time I'm running the deload/intensity at 2x per week but only started this week so can't really comment on it. I know what you mean about it seeming like too little but I'm planning to get more cardio in this time.

I did toy with various plans of mixing up 2x and 3x to keep my shots at the 1x3 lifts but I decided against messing around and the experience will be valuable. I know GhettoStudMuffin and BionicBC each did the 2x and had great gains. I might run a stage3 couple of weeks to get some max lifts in at the end.

GSM has his log here:
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346149
He started the 5x5 sometime late January, I think.

BionicBC didn't run a log on here but posted a few times in his last couple of weeks in the 5x5 motherthread. I think he finished sometime around the end of March.
 
Hmmm...

Now I'm thinking:

deload at 2x, then weeks 6 and 7 same weight/moderate increase, then spread 8 and 9 over three weeks. Damn madcow that's good stuff.
 
You won't need to deload at 2x, you can use the 3x - you'll be fine (trust me - keep week 6 modest just in-case you need some extra). It's the final one's you might want to space.
 
Week 4

WEDNESDAY

Squat 5x5: 275
Standing military 5x5: 175
Deadlift: 375 3x5, 1x4; 365 1x5
Chins 5x5: BW

Comments:

-I'd failed at 175 on military last week. Got it today. Still tougher than I'd thought it would be.

-Got a little greedy on dl, but not too bad I guess. I went up twenty pounds from last week. I spoke with a dude who pulls 560 and he said a big pull just takes time :rolleyes: .

-I haven't gone up on chins because I'm BEAT after DL's. That's why I do military before 'em- I'd never move up if I did them after.
 
Keep in mind that in these programs you generally see a lot of the strength and hypertrophy show up afterward during the lighter deload/intensity period. You are pushing fairly hard so, you might be setup to pull some big triples in the dead further out. Just take your time.
 
Sounds good. I've upped my cals considerably the last two weeks and I have put some very noticeable size in my legs/hips (calves to waist).

Upper body overall has shrank just a bit but it seems that if I keep this up my body will be more balanced in terms of strength and eventually mass.

MC- I'd like your advice on setting up my weights for the intensity phase. I want to be more conservative at first and truly ramp the weights, as opposed to how I started the program (adding 10 pounds/week to each exercise basically). Would this be a good approach? Something like:

(using DL as example)

Week 5: 355 3x3 (this is the last weight I successfully completed for 5x5)
Week 6: 365 3x3
Wekk 7: 375 3x3
Week 8: 390 3x3
Week 9: 405 3x3

I realize that I should go by feel and adjust as necessary, but does the above seem like an appropriate goal/plan? It looks a little odd because weeks 6 and 7 are certainly less taxing then week 4 was, but I thought maybe that would be a good thing.
 
Looks okay - just go by feel. Sometimes what looks nice on paper is infeasible and sometimes it's too light.

If your stength was out of balance you might definitely notice a few muscles shinking - no big deal. You could build them back bigger if you wanted now that your base is increased or just keep pushing up the base and let everything fall into place as it's meant to.
 
Week 4

FRIDAY

Squat 1x5: 225, 275, 315, 335, 365
Bench 5x5: 280
Row 5x5: 245
abs
BB curls 100x9, x8

Comments:

-A perfect finish to loading. Weight selection couldn't have been better. On my very last rep of BP I just barely got it up, and on rows my form degraded on the very last one (got just a bit too upright).

-I'm definitely looking forward to some big triples. Those 5x5 days towards the end were pretty brutal.

-I guess it bears mentioning that I'm approaching my PR's from my last drug cycle, so that should say something as to the effectiveness of this program. I'm not even in the portion where the biggest gains are made...
 
Kane Fan said:
do you plan on retesting your max's after the 5x5 cycle is over
I'd be interested in knowing the weight increases
Click to expand...

Not exactly. I'm gonna run the program again and use the weights from week 4 of this cycle in week 3 of the next one (or possibly better tehm by a little- we'll see). Also, week 9 of this cycle will be telling as to strength gains as they will be absolutely all-out triples- I can assure you of that.
 
DELOAD

Week 5

MONDAY

Squat 3x3: 345
Bench 1x3: 295
Row 1x3: 275
abs
BB Curls 2x10: 100

Comments:

-It's the day after and I already feel "refreshed" (for lack of a better word) from the volume phase.

-Yeah I went up on rows. Don't know why. I just had so much in the tank that I couldn't help it. Felt real good.

-I got a phone # from a SMOKIN' girl who just joined the gym and that made the workout that much more pleasant. We're gonna work out wednesday :sperm:

-I really think my lifts are gonna skyrocket. Stay tuned...
 
Week 5

WEDNESDAY

DL: 3x3 365, 1x385(PR), 1x405(PR), 1x425(PR) (I'll explain...)
Standing military 3x3: 175
Chins: 3x3

Comments:

-I ran into a competitive Olympic weightlifter who gave me some pointers on DL. Suffice to say I took advantage. I couldn't believe that I pulled those singles quite easily. No BS, they were cake. All from one minor (or so I thought) tip- I wasn't pulling with my shoulders nearly enough to initiate the movement. She (yes, she) said that if I made sure to pull with my shoulders simultaneously with my hip drive, and stick my chest out, that I would be able to do more weight. She was right. Even if I just wrecked the program (which I doubt- I'm sure I can salvage it by going 2x next week) it was worth it to instill a good habit under a watchful eye. Remember, I got buried by 405 not long ago. Also, my low back normally aches after DL's but not today. Live and learn- get help from someone who really knows their shit and it will pay big dividends.

-I should probably also mention that I wore wrestling shoes in place of my normal running shoes, so I'm sure that helped too.
 
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Looks like an awesome program. I'm looking to put some more muscle in my legs but cannot go heavy on squats because I have a bad back. I always seem to injure my back doing squats. Can this program be used with Hack Squats, and leg press, or any other leg excercises?
 
Squats are the backbone of the program (no pun intended). Check out the table of contents in the main thread and read 'casue just about every question I thought of was already covered there.

What's wrong with your back?
 
Week 5

FRIDAY

Squat 1x3: 365
Bench 3x3: 280
Row 3x3: 255
abs
curls

Comments:

-the Oly weightlifter who helped me on deads gave me some squatting advice and it was spot-on as well. I wore Doc Martens to squat in (looked pretty funny under my adidas warm-up pants) and made sure to shift the weight more on my heels and keep my chest out. I went DEEP and it felt great. Easy. My knees stayed in line w/ my toes much better today. They weren't terrible before but there was definite improvement

-I'd appreciate suggestions as to handling my program given my little "wavering" on wednesday. I was thinking running next week with an incremental increase in weight, ramp more aggressively week 7, then spread 8 and 9 over three weeks. Thoughts?

EDIT: MC2- I just read your response to jim ouini regarding doing the 2x deload and you said he should run 2x for two weeks then for the record weeks get back to 3x. Same suggestion for me?
 
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Guinness5.0 said:
EDIT: MC2- I just read your response to jim ouini regarding doing the 2x deload and you said he should run 2x for two weeks then for the record weeks get back to 3x. Same suggestion for me?
Click to expand...

I didn't say that at all. I said forget all the record weeks and such other than the volume. When you complete loading on the volume you run the 2x phase for 2-3 weeks or as needed before stepping back into a volume phase:

Source: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381

Alternative Deload/Intensity:
This is really the one that most people should be doing. If you don't handle the other correctly you can blow your program but I didn't want to switch it and confuse people.

Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of volume. Over the next 2-3 weeks increase increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, week the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete.

Monday:
Oly squats: 3x3
Bench: 3x3
Rows: 3x3

Wednesday (or move this workout to Thursday if you'd like)
Light Oly Squats (70% of monday): 3x3
Deadlifts: 3x3
Military Press: 3x3
Chins:3x3
Click to expand...

The 2nd phase in the 3x per week has some great benefits, particularly in that it's really 2 full mesocycles rather than just a load/deload. This is why a lot of people notice really significant strength increases moving back into the volume again as all the heavy 3x3 and 1x3 work really pays its benefit (you get a lot of growth from it too as you transition into a more core hypertrophy volume and rep range). That said, it can be too much and has to be handled properly which is probably asking a bit much for many people. I think it's really effective though and if done right, I think a lot of the people who have used it have seen the benefits (although they generally have been beat to crap by the end).
 
So, in this scenario, we have, over the life of the program:

4 weeks of volume doing 5x5 and 1x5
2-3 weeks of 2x per week deload, as the body sees fit, all at 3x3
3 weeks of 3x per week of intensity at 3x3 and 1x3 with time off as needed, probably causing it to stretch to longer.

Or have I completely misunderstood?
 
Blut Wump said:
So, in this scenario, we have, over the life of the program:

4 weeks of volume doing 5x5 and 1x5
2-3 weeks of 2x per week deload, as the body sees fit, all at 3x3
3 weeks of 3x per week of intensity at 3x3 and 1x3 with time off as needed, probably causing it to stretch to longer.

Or have I completely misunderstood?
Click to expand...

That's what I'd like to do, then, if this is the case. 2 weeks deload, 3 weeks intensity.

I've always been a bit confused about the deload/intensity anyway; I always thought the basic premise of DF was to build up fatigue, then 'deload' by cutting volume while keeping intensity high i.e, in the above scenario wouldn't the last 3 weeks be deloading due to the drastically reduced volume?
 
Plain Vanilla 2x:
4 weeks load
2-3 weeks as needed deload (2x per week)

Plan Vanilla 3x
4 weeks load
1 week deload (3x)
4 weeks intensity (3x)
 
Madcow2 said:
Plain Vanilla 2x:
4 weeks load
2-3 weeks as needed deload (2x per week)

Plan Vanilla 3x
4 weeks load
1 week deload (3x)
4 weeks intensity (3x)
Click to expand...
OK I more-or-less get it now. At least the difference in the two versions. Now to decide which one...

Also, if one was to go with plain vanilla 3x, week 6 would still serve as a deloading week, right? You're still ramping week to week, so you've still got to be a bit conservative and therefore the workouts won't be as taxing. Am I on the right track here? I'm sorry to make you spell everything out but my head is spinning :twirl:
 
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Jim Ouini said:
That's what I'd like to do, then, if this is the case. 2 weeks deload, 3 weeks intensity.

I've always been a bit confused about the deload/intensity anyway; I always thought the basic premise of DF was to build up fatigue, then 'deload' by cutting volume while keeping intensity high i.e, in the above scenario wouldn't the last 3 weeks be deloading due to the drastically reduced volume?
Click to expand...
That's what dual-factor is about: managing fitness and fatigue and then deloading.

Periodization is the part of having volume phases and intensity phases. As such you can run a dual-factor program which is all volume and deloading or all intensity and deloading. The latter would wear out your joints if kept up for long repeatedly but would still be valid dual-factor. The 5x5 in full 3x per week mode is a dual-factor periodized program.

You could even think of the whole program using the 3x per week intensity phase as two dual-factor phases stuck together: one volume and the other intensity.

At least, this is my understanding.
 
Week 6

MONDAY

Squat3x3: 365
Bench1x3: 305
Row1x3: 265

Comments:

-A football injury I got 8 years ago is beginning to resurface. I tore my miniscus, strained my MCL and fractured two bones but didn't have surgery. Doc said it may come up down the road. So far it's no biggie but I'm a bit worried that I'll feel great, squat heavy and then BOOM. So today I used knee wraps. They definitely made the lift easier with the reflex effect they provided. I'm not sure whether to stick with them or not. My first working set was done without them and it felt fine. Come to think of it, my knee feels better now a few hours after lifting than it did all weekend.

-Bench was tough. Probably gonna rock 2.5's next week :garza:

-Row was cake. I swear this is gonna equal my bench soon

-Can't wait to DL, but what else is new?
 
One thing about this program is that a lot of people come to it from plain vanilla 3 day/ bodypart 1x per week splits. This kind of workload and frequency is a major shock and overuse injuries and some persistent nags can develop. It's not so much the nature of the program but the nature of the much increased workload and the sudden strength increases that have come along with it. Just be smart about it.
 
Madcow2 said:
Plain Vanilla 2x:
4 weeks load
2-3 weeks as needed deload (2x per week)

Plan Vanilla 3x
4 weeks load
1 week deload (3x)
4 weeks intensity (3x)
Click to expand...

I thought the 2x had you ramping up to records in weeks 8/9, but I see that is not the case now.

I'm in week 4 of the volume phase right now next week I'll be deloading. If I'm doing the 2x per week and I'm going to deload for 2 weeks, in week 5 I would carry over the weights from week 4 and use 3x3? Then in week 6 deloading would I bump the weights up at all? After the 2-3 weeks of deloading I just go back into the volume phase again ramping to new records for 5x5 and 1x5, is this correct so far?

Which is better for size and strength the 2x or 3x? The first time I ran the program I did the 3x and it wore me out I'm thinking the 2x will be better for me.

EDIT: I just saw this I think I got it now.

Week 5 and on switch to 3x3 and drop the Friday workout altogether. Week 5 weights are the same as the final week of volume. Over the next 2-3 weeks increase increase the weight workout to workout if you get all 9 reps. If you don't get all the reps, week the weight constant. You'll likely be able to move straight back into another volume phase after this is complete.
 
If you're going to be deloading for 2-3 weeks whats the point of increasing the weights each week? I thought the purpose of deloading was to let your body rest and recover before hitting the weights hard again.
 
I'm in the third week of doing a 2x per week deload. I was dithering between the two options and even thinking of making up some hybrid variant. I was pretty bust up after week4, though, so the 2x seemed sensible.

With this amount of rest time, I've almost felt detrained and, if not for outside matters, I'd have switched back to 3x this week. I don't think I'd be overly comfortable with continuing at 2x for another two weeks to take it through to week9. I've also kind of missed the 1x3 lifts. With steady weight increases, though, the workouts are getting more strenuous. I know a couple of guys at least have run the 2x out for five weeks with good PRs at the end.

I might yet try to manage some hybrid or I might just go back into a fresh week1 and a new run. I wouldn't recommend any messing about with other than the vanilla options, though, for anyone on their first run of the program. I have a bad tendency to use myself as a guinea pig.
 
I'm confused now. I thought the 2x routine doesn't have you set records and you're suppose to get rid of the intensity phase. Why are people running the 2x for 5 weeks?

This is what I'm getting from MC2's post on how to run the 2x,

Loading weeks 1-4 (5x5/1x5) set new records in weeks 3/4. Week 5 switch to 3x3 and drop Fridays workout. Run the 2x, 3x3 deload for 2-3 weeks, then move back into another volume phase.

I might be misreading some posts in here, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Week 6

WEDNESDAY

DL 3x3: 385, 1x405, 1x435 (PR)
Standing military 3x3: 185
Pullups 3x3: BW+45

Comments:

-Very happy with DL progress. Like I said last week, 425 was pretty easy and I wanted to see how 435 would fell. It was tough but not brutal. Next week I won't mess around. Just 3x3 @405 w/ no singles at the end.

-Military was good, but my core is showing some weakness. I'm starting to lean back more than I should.
 
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You have it exactly right. After two or three weeks of the 2x per week 3x3 you'll be fully deloaded and ready to dive straight back into week1 and a fresh run.

I've now done 3 weeks of the 2x deload and was just considering whether to run another 3 weeks intensity phase at 3x per week, as though I were continuing from the start of week7, rather than starting a fresh run again from a new week1. This would be a deviation from the normal program and might not work well.
 
Week 6

FRIDAY

Squat1x3: 385
Bench 3x3: 295
Row 3x3: 275
Needsize' ab routine

Comments:

-This weight for squats was pretty easy. I remember back when 355 was brutal (that was abour 3 weeks ago hehe). I'm thinking 405 for 3 is very doable by week nine, maybe even for 3x3.

-Bench was tough. 2.5''s next week.

-I love heavy rows. I still get DOMS from these. I know that doesn't matter but it's the only thing besides abs that causes it.

-Needsize' ab routine is ROUGH. You use a decline bench, go down 'til your torso is near parallel and hold that position for a long 5-count (you know, one one-thousand, two one-thousand...) and do 5x5. Hits 'em top to bottom.
 
Week 6

FRIDAY

Squat1x3: 385
Bench 3x3: 295
Row3x3: 275
abs

Comments:

-Squats are coming along nicely

-I've been fiddling with my bench form, transitioning into more of a PL style. It is beginning to click.

-I used Needsize's ab workout and loved it. Highly recommended.
 
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Week 7

MONDAY

Squat 3x3: 375
Bench 1x3: 310
Row 1x3: 285
bb curls: 100 x9, x7
needsize' ab routine

Comments:

-I had a coworker take a video of my squats w/ his cell phone and I don't go as deep as i thought. Definitely below parallel but not ATG. I dunno... my calves touch my hams so I'm not sure if that's all that bad or not. What do you all think?
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Comments:

-I had a coworker take a video of my squats w/ his cell phone and I don't go as deep as i thought. Definitely below parallel but not ATG. I dunno... my calves touch my hams so I'm not sure if that's all that bad or not. What do you all think?
Click to expand...

Same thing happened to me: had my wife check my depth and I thought for sure I was ATG and she said I was barely past parallel :evil: Talk about wanting to shoot the messenger...I was like 'you must have a bad angle ' ;)

Anyway, I just continued on as-is til the end of the 1st run through; then 2nd run through I backed way off on the weights so I could get ATG. Unfortunately - whether due to bad form or whatever - due to knee pain I've had to kind of had to back off so I'm about where I was in cycle #1 in terms of depth/weight. :worried:

On the flip side, my dead, bench and push press have definitely gotten better.
 
If your hams are on your calves there's just not much else you can do. Some people have the right leverages and proportions to have their ass almost on the floor. Others don't, myself included. You go as low as you can, keep everything tight and back straight. That's all one can do and that's the full range of motion for your body.
 
Good to hear b/c if I go lower my back rounds. That would seem to be an absolute no-no. I just showed the video to my Oly weightlifter buddy and she said my depth was great and that I need to work on keeping my back tighter and keep the weight shifted on my heels more.

I'll see if I can post the video, but I'm using basically all of my computer savvy just to post on Elite :rolleyes:
 
If I do a Hindu squat, which is just squatting down with my arms over my knees, my glutes are still about 6-8 inches off the ground. At that point I'm fully settled in and can't possibly get lower without deciding to fall over. That, to me, is a full ATF deepsquat.

If I don't get that brief settling-in feeling at the bottom then I know that I stopped short.
 
Blut Wump said:
If I do a Hindu squat, which is just squatting down with my arms over my knees, my glutes are still about 6-8 inches off the ground. At that point I'm fully settled in and can't possibly get lower without deciding to fall over. That, to me, is a full ATF deepsquat.

If I don't get that brief settling-in feeling at the bottom then I know that I stopped short.
Click to expand...
I just tried that in front of the mirror (the hindu squat) and it's official- I'm going deep enough on squats :)

Good idea blut
 
Week 7

WEDNESDAY

DL 3x3: 405
Military: 195x 2.5, 190x3, 190x2.5
Pullups 3x3: BW+45
needsize's ab routine

Comments:

-DL's were great. This is so much further along than I though I'd be at this point.

-I should have started w/ 190 for military. Probably would've gotten all of 'em

-A competitive powerlifter joined the gym yesterday and I spoke with him for a while. Good numbers- 900 lb squat, upper 600's bench, but his DL is his weakness at "only" mid 700's. He said his best total at a meet was about 2300 lbs. (I forgot the exact #). It was at teh Arnold two years ago I think. Definitely a good resource for me!
 
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Week 7

FRIDAY

Squat 1x3: 395
Bench 3x3: 300
Row 3x3: 285


Comments:

-For squats my progression went 135x12, 225x? (just did a few, not really counting), 315x5, 335x3, 365x3 w/ wraps/belt, then 395x3 w/ wraps/belt. Figured it's worth mentioning since I was using equipment. I was adament not to lean forward AT ALL today and I got stuck for a split second on the last rep but stayed upright beautifully, so that's progress in my book. I may go for 405 next week. We'll see. It would sure be a milestone (there's something that gets me excited about 4 plates) and would be coming earlier than anticipated.

-I'm finally 100% confident in my squat depth. I'm not sure if I can describe the feeling just right, but I really don't try to slow myself at the bottom at all. I lower at a controlled pace and when I stop, I stop. It is certainly not deloading- there is definitley some stretch reflex going on.

-I still have too much weight on the balls of my feet. Since I feel that I'm in no danger of falling I'm going to proceed in this manner through this 5x5 cycle and make form priority number one next time around.

-I'm glad I sucked it up and used 2.5's on bench. The weight was perfect.

-Rows are moving up my list of favorite exercises. No one even approaches rows like these (meaning ~parallel and heavy) at this gym. The hammer strength machines get lots of use though...

-I've gotta take some pics. I'm looking like a brick shithouse and getting comments left and right.
 
I have always been intrigued by this but never had the guts to try it. I guess I'm just too set in my BBing ways.

I did try HIT for a while, but after a few month it grew pretty stale.

Anyone NOt have good results from 5x5?

I'm also afraid of injury. Seems alot of times when I go below 6-8 reps I tend to hurt something. I know it's not like you first set you can only do 5 reps, but use a weight you can do 5 sets for 5, but it's still got me a little in disbelief.

I guess I shoul just shut up and give it a try :)
 
hardrock said:
I'm also afraid of injury. Seems alot of times when I go below 6-8 reps I tend to hurt something. I know it's not like you first set you can only do 5 reps, but use a weight you can do 5 sets for 5, but it's still got me a little in disbelief.

I guess I shoul just shut up and give it a try :)
Click to expand...
The nice thing is that you ease into it. The first week really isn't that tough weight-wise, and the second wasn't tough (for me) either. You ramp up and the hard part comes a bit later. But, if you have a weak link it may show up. My old knee injury resurfaced slightly but seems to be fine now.
 
Week 8

MONDAY

Squat 3x3: 385
Bench 1x3: 315x1, x7/8, x5/8 :)
Row 1x3: 295
stabilty ball crunches w/ 25 lb plate (3 sets ~20 each)
bb curls: 110x9, x8

Comments:

-Squats were pretty easy. May go to 405 next week. Depends on a couple variables yet to be decided. Took another video of squats. Nice part about working at a gym- the person taping it was the hottest milf I've ever seen in person. She's 40 and looks like a fitness model (kinda buff but definitely not too much, fake boobs, etc). I think it helped with motivation :)

-Got greedy on bench. I was sure I'd get it too. The spotter just barely touched it on the second rep (it had stopped moving entirely so it wasn't his fault) and I went for one more. He said he didn't help much on either. He only had his fingertips on it so it couldn't have been that much but I'm still disappointed. I shoulda just racked it.

-Rows were good. There was just a bit of a hitch on the last one but still... 295 is a lot for strict parallel bb rows so I'm happy

-Today's BB curls illustrated how much of this is mental. We have preloaded curl bars up to 110 pounds. I thought I grabbed the 100 pounder, which is what I've been using lately, but I unwittingly grabbed the 110. I used it and thought it was easy so I went to grab the 110, saw the 100 and realized I was already using the 110.

-Now for the variables- I think I should go for the 2x weekly setup from here on out. My low back is not going to like me if I hammer him with 415 on dl for 3x3 in two days. I can only imagine what this would be like if I actually had a big dl. I don't think 5x5 will be an option for more than one more go-round if strength improves like it has this time around. But that's a good thing :) Then again, if my ever-improving core strength keeps my spine in tact, maybe some of this burden will be lifted. We'll see...
 
Week 8

WEDNESDAY

DL 3x3: 415
Standing military 3x3: 195
Pullups ( I've been calling them chins but I mean palms out and shoulder width) 3x3: BW +40

Comments:

-Dl's were tough. It didn't help that one of the bolts that hold the sleeves on the bar was backed out and one side was about 2 inches further out than the other :rolleyes: I found that after my second set. Couldn't figure out why the left side felt heavier. Damn.

-I almost went for 190 on military but I felt good so I went for 195. Grueling but I got it.

-I am DEFINITELY going to spread next week out. I felt good before I hit the gym but once I got into dl's I realized the extra day probably would have done me some good. Oh yeah and I weigh in next week. I honestly don't think I've gained much mass, but my abs are more visible. By that I mean in the right light if I lean back enough you can tell there's something under the squishy stuff. My lats have certainly improved and my legs are huge. I should have taken pics I guess, but the goal was/is strength improvement and that has certainly been achieved.
 
I'd like to do a true test of my 1rm to test my strength in DL, bench and squat after week 9. How should I go about this? I was thinking a deload period and then just go for it. What would be a good guideline to follow?
 
Guinness5.0 said:
Week 8

FRIDAY

Squat 1x3: 405 :garza:
Bench 3x3: 305 :garza:
Row 3x3: 290 :garza:

Comments:

-Great day. Smilies say it all.
Click to expand...

Grats, heavy weight all around. I like this phase of the program, trying to set 3RM records.
 
go2failure said:
I'm most impressed with the rows, thats a shitload of weight to row IMO.


Good Job!
Click to expand...
Thank you. The funny thing is that I never even did BB rows before this. I was really strong (relatively speaking) on one arm db rows and the angle for those is similar. I worked up to 130's for sets of five.
 
Guinness5.0 said:
I'd like to do a true test of my 1rm to test my strength in DL, bench and squat after week 9. How should I go about this? I was thinking a deload period and then just go for it. What would be a good guideline to follow? Any links to articles on how to test 1rms?
Click to expand...
None of you deadbeats are gonna help me with this one?!?!?!?! :finger:

J/K
 
Drop down to doubles for a deload week then hit them up the following week. If you think of it like preparing for a competition then on the following week you'd take a light workout early in the week and then at the end of the week try for your maxes. Maybe even spread it over two days - not sure.
 
Blut wump's alternative should work fine. If this was for a comp you'd not be focusing so heavily on triples and peaking them out but instead segwaying down to doubles and singles. In reality this is a good alternative, not perfect but definitely good enough.
 
Thanks bros. Think it'll be worth much versus just going for a single after 3x3? I know it'd be a little better to deload a bit and then max, but if it'll likely be 10 or so pounds I don't really care to spend that much time just to test 1rm. Thoughts?
 
I went for a 1RM a few days after my first complete run of the 5x5 and couldn't even manage the weight I'd done for a triple the previous week. It was then I had to concede that I was in dire need of another deload.
 
Week 9

TUESDAY

Squat 2x3: 395, 1x3: 405
Bench 1x3: 315
Row 1x3: 300
EDIT: also did needsize' ab routine w/ 10 lb plate, then curls w/ 110 bb for 1x9, 1x8
Comments:

-This "week" will be tues, fri, tues for training days. Kinda wish I would have spread out last week too but it still went well.

-I just couldn't resist going to 4 plates on squat. I actually found it easier than when I ramped up to 405 for one set last time. I had one of the trainers at the gym spot me and he was shocked at how deep I went. It's sad but true that I have never seen anyone squat 4 plates in this gym (not even for 1/2 reps), and there are some big dudes that work out here. Must have some good sources :rolleyes:

-Thrilled about bench. With this I have officially hit all of the strength goals I set in my head for this program. This is equal to what I put up while on gear, so I am now officially as strong/stronger naturally than I was while juicing at 10 pounds heavier about 5 months ago. I think some of it has to do with getting more comfortable using a powerlifting style of movement (elbows tucked in, big arch, etc.).

-Can't wait to DL on friday.
 
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Week 9

FRIDAY

Ok... today was a little screwy. I'll explain

DL: 225x?, 315x3, 365x2, 405x1, 435x1, failed @455
Standing military 3x3: 200
DL 2x3: 405
Pullups: bw x5,x4

Comments:

-I felt invincible warimg up so I figured that rather than burning a week deloading then trying for a 1rm session on the big 3, I'd just use today to pull a 1rm on dead (which is honestly the only lift on which I was dying to test my 1rm). I was SURE I'd get 455 but I think my subconcious (or perhaps my CNS) talked me out of it right as it broke the floor :) . I really think I should have gotten it. Kinda bummed :arrow:

-I am very happy to have hit 2 bills on military. This was TOUGH.

-I figured that since I'm deloading next week then I should probably load up to make it worthwhile, so I hammered some more deads. Plus I just didn't get my fill from doing the singles. Seriously I would deadlift three times a week if it was possible to make progress from it.

-Although I've still got one more workout, I kind of consider this the last one as it's the last one with dl's. Don't get me wrong- I'm still excited to try for a triple at 425 on squat, but it's not the same...
 
Whoa I'm a long way from 200 on military. I can barely push press 155. Nice.

How did 455 feel? Broke the floor but couldn't lock it out? I've been kinda scared to fail on a dead. I keep having these visions of my spine shooting across the room or something.
 
Jim Ouini said:
Whoa I'm a long way from 200 on military. I can barely push press 155. Nice.

How did 455 feel? Broke the floor but couldn't lock it out? I've been kinda scared to fail on a dead. I keep having these visions of my spine shooting across the room or something.
Click to expand...
It was wierd. When I put it down I was like "WTF?!?! That shoudln't have stopped!!". My back feels fine- i didn't break form at all. When I say broke the floor I mean it went about two inches, not that I got it to my knees or anything. I want to try a rack pull just to see how big my strength discrepency is b/t pulling from the floor and pulling from knee-level. I bet it's HUGE. Seriously, 435 was EASY!!
 
Guinness5.0 said:
It was wierd. When I put it down I was like "WTF?!?! That shoudln't have stopped!!". My back feels fine- i didn't break form at all. When I say broke the floor I mean it went about two inches, not that I got it to my knees or anything. I want to try a rack pull just to see how big my strength discrepency is b/t pulling from the floor and pulling from knee-level. I bet it's HUGE. Seriously, 435 was EASY!!
Click to expand...

Now I HAVE to get 435 next week ;)
 
Guinness5.0 said:
It was wierd. When I put it down I was like "WTF?!?! That shoudln't have stopped!!". My back feels fine- i didn't break form at all. When I say broke the floor I mean it went about two inches, not that I got it to my knees or anything. I want to try a rack pull just to see how big my strength discrepency is b/t pulling from the floor and pulling from knee-level. I bet it's HUGE. Seriously, 435 was EASY!!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't this mean that your back is preventing you from pulling 455?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the very bottom of the deadlift mostly glutes/hams?
 
BlondBomber said:
Wouldn't this mean that your back is preventing you from pulling 455?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the very bottom of the deadlift mostly glutes/hams?
Click to expand...
I definitely think I have 455 in me- I don't know how to explain it, but I was holding the bar steady for a split second, then dropped it. I didn't just tug it and it fell-there was a pause. Could that mean anything? I think I'm overanalyzing at this point :p . But to anser your question: yes I think that if my low back was stronger it would have gone up all the way.

Maybe I need to have my Oly lifter buddy take another look at my form. I hope I haven't backslid into my old habits.
 
I had exactly the same when I went for 425. The bar went about two inches and then something just said 'no'. From my discussion with the guy who said that I had 'crap technique' and what blondbomber has just said I think there's a lot to dl technique I'm missing. I just pull until I'm upright.

You mentioned deadlifting 3x per week. There's a program offering just that which madcow has mentioned from time to time. The Korte 3x3 is in the top-right corner and Wade Hanna, just beneath, has a couple of articles on his experiences of it. Super_Rice also started a thread on his run.
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/

I'm thinking of giving this a whirl even if only for the DL practice.

Congrats on your new PRs.
 
It's funny- for my next run I was thinking of doing a 5x5 WITHOUT dl's to improve them (with power cleans/high pulls instead of rows/dl's probably) or the korte 3x3 so I can dl 3x per week. I'm GUESSING that some improvement in explosive strength would go a long way toward helping me with my sticking point. Wanna chime in here MC? The rep calculators have my projected 1rm in the 460's based on a triple w/ 425, so this sticking point needs to be dealt with.
 
Blut Wump said:
I had exactly the same when I went for 425. The bar went about two inches and then something just said 'no'. From my discussion with the guy who said that I had 'crap technique' and what blondbomber has just said I think there's a lot to dl technique I'm missing. I just pull until I'm upright.
Click to expand...

Hey Blut you should definitely check out Rippetoe's book. Among a ton of other things, he describes knee angle (femur and tibia) and torso angle (to the floor) during different parts of the lift. (I'm paraphrasing from memory, here)

He describes how initial pulling off the floor your knee angle will increase as your quads extend your knee, while torso angle stays basically the same. Then as the bar hits the knees your torso angle will increase as your glutes/hams extend your hip until lockout.

Funny thing is, that's how I taught myself to dead - everytime I tried to dead I'd smack my knee and my back wasn't quite right

Finally I thought 'I've done tons of RDL's just fine without hitting my knee on the way up, why so many deadlift problems?' So I mentally broke the lift into 2 segments - bring the bar up off the floor into 'RDL bottom position', then do a RDL (of course as the weight gets heavier it all goes out the window ;) )

Since you have at least (I think I read a while back) a 495 rack pull, it may be that a slight tweak would send your dead into orbit.

Just a thought :)
 
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