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hannes joubert

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Hey there guys. I am looking at cycling my hCG i.e one/two months off - one month on. Want to do this to prevent insensitivity to the hCG. Don't need the nuts anymore, but prefer having coconuts in stead of peanuts, ya know :)

So, what I have been doing in the recent past is 1 x 250 iu twice per week (the day before my T pin).

I have taken the last 6 weeks off from the hCG, now would like to start pinning this for a month and then cycle off again, for the reasons mentioned above.

I will keep my timetable the same, but would like to know, within ballpark, what is the most effective dose that I can take without over cooking everything?

Is 250 iu twice per week sufficient, or can I increase this, and if so, to what?

Thanks as usual for all your kind help.

H
 
250 iu hcg twice a week , if u shoot ur test once a week then shoot the hcg one day b4 and 2 days b4 ur test shot, for egg. if u do ur test shot on mondays then shoot 250 iu hcg on saturdays and another 250 iu on sundays.
if u divide ur test shot to twice a week then no need for this protocol just shoot the hcg every time u have a test shot (for egg.200mg test e and 500 iu hcg per week r divided like that: mon morning 100mg test e + 250 iu hcg , thu evening 100mg test e + 250 iu hcg).
the reason of doing the hcg for the last 2 days b4 ur next test shot is to compensate for the decline of test levels at the end of the week, which there's no need when divided to twice a week.

no evidence of desensitization to HCG or to own LH production while shooting 250 iu x2/w , it's supposed to be ran for the rest of ur life, but i take time off too not because of a study or any evidence that says so but i like to think that way as with any compound i introduce to my body, i just stop it for a month every 2 or 3 months, i think i'm going to prolong the period to 4 months from now on even b4 taking a break.
 
Thanks X.

Would still like to know if the dose can be upped or if it should be kept the same??

I have already reduced my T dosage to 240mg/week from 300mg/week, so I don't want to be under powered... :)

H
 
this article was made by Eric M. Potratz and is well known on the net and backed up by many references, it's about HCG during cycles but since we r on a never ending cycle so it's somehow the same for us on HRT.

hcg - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hcg) and show you the most efficient way to use hcgfor the fastest and most complete recovery.

hcg unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hcg) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function andtestosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hcg ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hcg should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hcg is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hcg to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate usinghcg at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hcg studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hcgdose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hcg stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hcg stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce yourtestosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hcgstimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosteroneproduction is a topic for another article)

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hcg stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hcg post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hcg, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hcgat dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of hcg treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20





In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hcg being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu hcg administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hcg. (2) It is important that low-dose hcg is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hcg before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hcg during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hcg is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hcg at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hcg shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hcg stimulation.

If you are starting hcg late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hcg "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu hcg dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hcg should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hcg protocol, hcg should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hcg two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hcgabout the same time as your last testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hcg about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hcg since your body will not release its own LH until the hcg has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hcg during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466–495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticulartestosterone in Normal Men with testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier Protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes
Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate oftestosterone cypionate.
Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201–203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282–287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583–590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.
Catt KJ, et al
Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557–622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes
GV Katsiia, et al
Probl Endokrinol (Mosk), Sep 1984; 30(5): 68-71.

14. Reproductive function in young fathers and grandfathers.
Nieschlag E, et al.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 55:676–681 (1982)

15. The aging Leydig cell III Gonadotropin stimulation in men.
Nankin HR, et al. 1981
J Androl 2:181–189

16. Reproductive hormones in aging men. I. Measurement of sex steroids, basal luteinizing hormone, and Leydig cell response to human chorionic gonadotropin.
Harman SM, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 51:35–40

17. Prolonged biphasic response of plasma testosterone to single intramuscularinjections of human chorionic gonadotropin.
Padron RS, et al. 1980
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 50:1100–1104

18. Gonadotrophins and plasma testosterone in senescence. In: James VHT, Serio M, Martini L, eds. The endocrine function of the human testis.
Mazzi C, et al. 1974
New York: Academic Press, Inc.; 51–66

19. Androgen biosynthesis in Leydig cells after testicular desensitization by luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone and human chorionic gonadotropin.
Dufau ML, et al.
Endocrinology 105 1314–1321 (1979)

20. insulin-Like Factor 3 Serum Levels in 135 Normal Men and 85 Men with Testicular Disorders: Relationship to the Luteinizing Hormone-testosterone Axis
K. Bay, S. et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Jun 2005; 90: 3410 - 3418.

21. Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic gonadotropin after prolonged gonadotropin suppression in normal men.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1985
J Androl 6:137–143

22. Human chorionic gonadotropin and testicular function: stimulation oftestosterone, testosterone precursors, and sperm production despite high estradiol levels.
Matsumoto AM, et al. 1983
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 56:720–728
 
Thanks X.

Would still like to know if the dose can be upped or if it should be kept the same??

I have already reduced my T dosage to 240mg/week from 300mg/week, so I don't want to be under powered... :)

H

i think there's no need for that 500iu/w is enough.
i'm too gona decrease my test dose from 250mg to 150mg and try to add some primo to the mix maybe 100mg or even 200mg like Nelson does, i think it'll still be enough for the symptoms and better for anabolism with much less sides (i'm very prone to acne and oily skin, plus lowering BP) and this way i won't ever need an AI only when blasting with aromatizable compounds, and for the long run much less potentials long term sides, i know believe that less is more with time. Later on i'm going to add peptides to the mix , i was thinking GHRP-2 as a starter, i'm ordering it next week when i get paid and it will arrive at the end of the month, i'm starting with 100 mcg x 3 /ed (wake up , PWO , pre-bed).
 
Thanks again, some stirling info on hCG there. Will do a one shot high dose blast as per above, then continue with 250iu 2 x week...

Wish this old body could do every thing itself...
 
The whole HCG desensitization "theory" and I use the term loosely is all derived from a stdu where some insanely high dose was used for a long time (6 months +) and after that time period the dose was upped from like 2000IU to 2500IU with no additional changes in test.

So people reading that report saw the duration it was used and the fact the dose was upped and came to the conclusion they were desensitized.

What they failed to realize is there are feedback loops which monitor test levels...period. Artificially raise test by mucking with other hormones and you can cause your body to release more test, but ONLY so far and after that you just aint gonna get your body to produce any more.
 
Seeing as I am on Exo Test, I am looking at this mostly from an aesthetic viewpoint (no pun intended).

Believe it or not, I have noticed a change in volume of testes in the short few weeks that hCG has been dropped...

And no, implants are not a solution :)
 
Your not alone Hannes, thats why a lot of guys on TRT run HCG. Low dose bi weekly long term use doesnt seem to have an effect on sensitization to it and keeps the testes working at least part time which to me is just as important as aesthetics.
 
Your not alone Hannes, thats why a lot of guys on TRT run HCG. Low dose bi weekly long term use doesnt seem to have an effect on sensitization to it and keeps the testes working at least part time which to me is just as important as aesthetics.

Having said that....then there is no real need nor benefit to "cycling" the hCG other than cost....(whilst on TRT anyway)

Thanks for clearing that up Z.
 
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