“Test is Test.” The actual amount of testosterone in your gear.

[duff_rose]

Most of you understand the concept that test is test, however; I see a lot of posts from people who think that one form of testosterone causes more sides than others. This simply is not true, assuming the product is dosed properly (true to what the label says) and it is real stuff.

The ester is ONLY a time release mechanism for the testosterone molecule that it holds. It does not change the half life of the testosterone molecule. Thus the expression "Test is Test."

If you inject 100mg of propionate every day, this will equal 700mg of test per week (simple enough). The same goes if you take 2 shots per week of enanthate at 350mg. That also equals 700mg per week. However; it will not hit that level in your body until 2-3 weeks as opposed to the 2-3 days it takes the propionate to "kick in."

The only variable in these equations is that the enanthate ester weighs more than the propionate ester. The enanthate ester weighs approximately 31% of the testosterone molecule + ester, and the propionate ester takes up approximately 16% of the testosterone molecule + ester. This being said, a 200mg ml of testosterone enanthate will actually equal 138mg of actual testosterone, and 200mg of testosterone propionate will equal 168mg of actual testosterone. This is a difference of 30mg, and will have an effect on the side effects that are caused from testosterone use.

The following is the actual amount of testosterone that is in each 100mg dose of the drug:

Testosterone Cypionate: 70mg
Testosterone Decanoate: 65mg
Testosterone Enantate: 72mg
Testosterone Isocaproate: 75mg
Testosterone Phenylpropionate: 69mg
Testosterone Propionate: 84mg
Testosterone Suspension: 100mg
Testosterone Undecanoate: 63mg

I hope this helps clear up some myths that are out there.

Regards,
Duff

 

[doublebicep]

Most def an interesting post duff_rose. No one disputing your facts...yet. So when we read bros stating, "I am doing 1 gram of test a week...etc..." Unless they are using a Suspension then it is more then likey ~ 3/4 of a gram. Hmmmm....interesting indeed.

 

[javaguru]

Good and solid basic information which should be a sticky.

 

[powerslave]

Good post.

This is often overlooked!

 

[bigdelt69]

Great post, although I do think that not all forms of testosterone cause the same sides. Short acting esters like prop, tend to have a greater impact on immune function.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Never saw those figures before. Where'd you find them?

At any rate, the numbers are still so similar that the point of your post remains -- test is test.

And if what we think is 100 is really 72, what's the difference? It's just figure to gauge. (Unless now guys will be saying; "I took a gram but it's REALLY only 720mgs!)

The only part of the post I dispute is the "time to circulate" concept. Test is effective almost immediatly. (Once it filters through the bloodstream -- about an hour) What it does after 3 days is no different from what it's doing after 3 hours. So test is test, and it does what test does as long as it's active.

 

[duff_rose]

Great post, although I do think that not all forms of testosterone cause the same sides. Short acting esters like prop, tend to have a greater impact on immune function.

Some forms of testosterone do cause different side effects such as nandrolone, methandrostenolone, trenbolone, etc… All these drugs are derivatives of the testosterone molecule and cause different side effects because they are different in structure (yet very similar). However; testosterone propionate, testosterone enantate, and any other testosterone that is linked with an ester will cause the same side effects because they all contain the same drug (testosterone). The reason people say that propionate and suspension cause more, or faster side effects than, say, enantate are because they release faster in your body. As I said in the original post; The ester (propionate, enantate, etc…) is ONLY a time release mechanism for the testosterone molecule that it holds.

 

[duff_rose]

Never saw those figures before. Where'd you find them?

At any rate, the numbers are still so similar that the point of your post remains -- test is test.

And if what we think is 100 is really 72, what's the difference? It's just figure to gauge. (Unless now guys will be saying; "I took a gram but it's REALLY only 720mgs!)

The only part of the post I dispute is the "time to circulate" concept. Test is effective almost immediatly. (Once it filters through the bloodstream -- about an hour) What it does after 3 days is no different from what it's doing after 3 hours. So test is test, and it does what test does as long as it's active.

Nelson,

I got those figures out of a couple different chemistry books in the library. I’m not sure the name of them right now as they are not in front of me. Basically I got the molecular weight of the testosterone molecule and the molecular weight of the different esters and did my own math. I can post the numbers if you like.

I quite frankly am very surprised to see you say that the numbers are so close that it doesn’t matter. To hear this from a guy that believes taking small doses is the best way to build quality muscle (a theory that I very much agree with) and then to say this is beyond me. I thought you of all people would believe in precise dosing. I mean, what’s the difference between 100mg suspension per day and 200mg enantate every other day??? Almost 200mg per week of actual testosterone is the difference.

Your “time to circulate” concept is correct. However; the point of the post was to show people how much the esters actually weigh. Sure, a testosterone molecule will do the same thing now or 3 days from now if it is still active. But it’s the amount of active testosterone in your system that causes benefits and side effects.

I mean no disrespect as I enjoy your readings and theories, but I am surprised to hear you say what you did.

Best regards,
Duff

 

[Zeke_B]

For all test esters to behave EXACTLY the same they must be injected at a frequency inversely proportional to the halflife of the ester. Prop should be injected in smaller dosages per inj. but more often than enanthate or other large molecule esters. 500mg of prop injected once per week will cause blood test levels to be less steady than 500mg of enanthate or sust (plus a little more to correct for the ester weight) also injected once per week. This mistake may account for people's perception that all test isn't the same.

 

[Malleus]

good post, i think that cleared some stuff up for me

 

[boxeo]

one of the best posts ive read yet.

 

[duff_rose]

For all test esters to behave EXACTLY the same they must be injected at a frequency inversely proportional to the halflife of the ester... This mistake may account for people's perception that all test isn't the same.

That is a very helpful statement which sholuld have been included in the origional post to help get the point across. Thanks Zeke, karma for you.

 

[Nelson Montana]

duff: I'm not exactly sure what it is that you think I said. But in regard to suspension, I agree. Since it isn't an oil based ester and has such a short half life, I always saw it as a seperate entity. i.e the mg per mg comparison doesn't line up. All the oils, however, are so close it wouldn't be detectable. And if you get your test from a compound pharmacy it may be a few mgs high or low. I believe in precise dosing, but a mg here and there isn't going to make that much of a difference.

 

[bbkingpin]

duff: I'm not exactly sure what it is that you think I said. But in regard to suspension, I agree. Since it isn't an oil based ester and has such a short half life, I always saw it as a seperate entity. i.e the mg per mg comparison doesn't line up. All the oils, however, are so close it wouldn't be detectable. And if you get your test from a compound pharmacy it may be a few mgs high or low. I believe in precise dosing, but a mg here and there isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Keep back peddling.

 

[Riker29]

The only part of the post I dispute is the "time to circulate" concept. Test is effective almost immediatly. (Once it filters through the bloodstream -- about an hour) What it does after 3 days is no different from what it's doing after 3 hours. So test is test, and it does what test does as long as it's active.

I know what you are trying to say, but the way it's stated above is misleading.

Yes, TEST is effective almost immediately, but when you inject Test which is attached to an ester, it is not AVAILABLE immediately.

When Test is bound to an Ester and injected, it is sort of "held" with that Ester and is not directly available to the bloodstream. Depending upon the type of ester used, it is then slowly RELEASED. Once it is RELEASED and then into the blood stream, THEN it is "effective almost immediatly".

The way it was stated will make some guys think that if they inject Cypionate for example, that like 3 hours after injecting they will have "high test levels" and then given the long half-life of Cyp, they wil think will STAY that way for like the several weeks until the ester breaks down. Thats not correct.

The fact is that when you inject TestCyp, you will see very LITTLE effect for a few days. Its only when the Test which is combined with the ester starts to get released will the Test actually be "available".

I am not an expert on this stuff, but from what I do know, I think that is an important set of distinctions.

One thing that gets overlooked in ester choice - the sensitivity to changes in doseage time. Meaning if you do Cypionate and inject normally 2x a week, and for some reason one injection gets delayed for 2 days, no big deal. But if that happens with Prop or Suspension then the effects are quite different.

 

[busta246]

So your sayin all gear is underdosed then?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Riker: Actually, if you were to have a blood test 3 hours ater taking a shot of cypionate, you would show an elevated T level.

BBKingpin: Backpeddling from what? I've noticed on several posts that you've been antagonistic toward me, and your complaint is always against something I never even said or done -- it's just your twisted interpretation of it. What's your problem dude? You got something to say, say it.

 

[Riker29]

Riker: Actually, if you were to have a blood test 3 hours ater taking a shot of cypionate, you would show an elevated T level.

Jeez, you know, one day when I log in and Nelson says "you know .. I stand corrected, I was wrong" I will probably fall off of my chair in amazement.

That's fine, Nelson. Save Face. Say what you want. No wonder you get so much heat from people. Sorry I took the time to actually try to point something out and correct what you said.

 

[jubei]

An elevated test level 3 hours after injecting cypionate. Um not really. Riker is right.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Riker: Now, what's YOUR problem? Geez, I wasn't just trying to argue with you bro. But you are incorrect.

Listen; I'm on HRT and I get my blood tested often but I have to be careful not to be tested too soon after taking a shot because -- guess what? -- my T level will show an inappropriate number. It's happened before. Shortly after a 200 mg shot of cyp my T was over 2000! (And it had been 2 weeks since my last shot). They wanted to cease therepy because it was so high. Now I make sure it's at the end of the week after my shot, upon which my level is around 700.

Now will YOU admt YOU'RE wrong? Personally, I don't give a shit and I don't want to go tit for tat, but it gets really annoying to have people get on your case when they're the one's who need to get their facts straight.

 

[jubei]

With nothing lingering in your blood stream from past shots, you will not notice a signifigant elevation of test levels 3 hours after a shot of cypionate. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure. Anyways don't want to get in the middle of a fight between riker and montana. Just dropping my 2 cents.

 

[Riker29]

Riker: Now, what's YOUR problem? Geez, I wasn't just trying to argue with you bro. But you are incorrect.

Listen; I'm on HRT and I get my blood tested often but I have to be careful not to be tested too soon after taking a shot because -- guess what? -- my T level will show an inappropriate number. It's happened before. Shortly after a 200 mg shot of cyp my T was over 2000! (And it had been 2 weeks since my last shot). They wanted to cease therepy because it was so high. Now I make sure it's at the end of the week after my shot, upon which my level is around 700.

Now will YOU admt YOU'RE wrong? Personally, I don't give a shit and I don't want to go tit for tat, but it gets really annoying to have people get on your case when they're the one's who need to get their facts straight.

Well, thats quite surprising to hear because it goes against what most people know and understand regarding esters and how they operate. I mean yes, you STRAT to get an elevated level very quickly, (the graph starts at zero and goes up soon after injection) but I would not think it would be THAT high THAT soon, with THAT long of an ester.

Hm, are we really sure that none was injected directly into the blood stream? That may have been the reason for it.

And, note, I have no problem with you personally. Its just that at times, your flat-out unwillingness to bend, even at the slightest, to admit that you even MAY be wrong, gets quite annoying and actually goes towards losing you more potential buyers of your books than it does to increase those numbers. I think thats why you take a lot of "heat". Sure it sounds out of line in terms of what people are discussing with you, but they are not reacting to the facts, they are reacting to the "tone" of how they are "talked down to".

I work in the self-help industry (among other things) and have learned that sure, its good to BE the person who has knowledge, but to present yourself as if you have ALL of the knowledge, and to act and posture as if everyone else hardly knows anything (its called being condescending) turns people off.

Do what you want. I don't care. I am not living off the revenue's of your book sales. I help teach guys to meet women - which is the reason half of guys work out anyway.

With all that said, I do have a lot of respect for you and you are very knowledgable in many ways. I do not agree with everything you say or preach, but you are far far far more correct and helpful than you are the reverse.

If you lived near me, I'd glady buy ya a beer and BS for a while. Assuming neither of us was cutting, of course. LOL

 

[Nelson Montana]

Okay, now that everybody has their underwear out of the crack of their ass...

I believe"tone" can be perceived and I don't think there was anything condesending toward you in my original post.

BE THAT AS IT MAY...

Try to realize that when you're the guy under the gun, it becomes near impossible to be diplomatc, and in-depth to everyone, all the time. Sometimes I'm curt, and it comes off as arrognet. I get people pissed at me because I tell them I haven't the time e-mail an ongoing diet plan or a full detailed chest training program. Seriously.

Anyway, I would accept that beer.

Now tell me how I can pick up more women and I'll listen.

 

[Riker29]

Okay, now that everybody has their underwear out of the crack of their ass...

I believe"tone" can be perceived and I don't think there was anything condesending toward you in my original post.

Yeah, but like I said, speak one way for a while, and people start to react to you in that way, all the time. Even on those occasions when you dont speak like that!

I got to be a real unpleasant guy on the Seduction email list I help to admin, having to deal with all of the newbie questions, out-of-context questions, and BS, all the time. Then even after I got better at dealing with it, I still have guys that react to the way I "was" years ago. Oh well.

Anyway, I would accept that beer.

Now tell me how I can pick up more women and I'll listen.

Oh no - not you too! LOL.

Here is the guy who has the seminars and products (and also the guy who George's Seduction book blatantly plagurizies, in addition to me and my writings as well)...

www.speed-seduction.com

 

[jubei]

Riker, enough about that nonsense, lets hear about meeting women. Fuck, lets get our priorities straight around here.

 

[Slowmo21]

I think Nelson is right. Some of you need to stop believing in BB myths. Even with a long chain ester like enanthate, the peak concentration is achieved very quickly (a day or two). Then the level will decline for around 2-3 weeks and you hit zero, provided there's no endogenous production.

 

[brotheriron]

Even after a shot of enathate t levels will increase within a few hours.
No-ones mentioned the fact that the half life of a test does alter its side effects. I would do a gram a week of enanthate but not suspension, or even prop at the same mg for mg dosage
Bro

 

[bigdelt69]

This is a very great thread guys!

But I still dont believe that all forms of testosterone cause the same sides. I mean, sure once the ester is removed that would be the case. But time and time again we see people complain more about short acting esters causing the so called 'test flu'. Think about the amount of BA you are injecting when compared to injecting prop ed vs. enanthate ew. I also believe that some of the sides come from not being able to keep blood levels consistent. If your bloodlevels are constantly up and down you are going to have more sides. (ie acne).

 

[Slider]

Nice post duff, I agree with the facts of this.

Slider

Karma for you

 

[MrRTTB]

nice post

 

[duff_rose]

But time and time again we see people complain more about short acting esters causing the so called 'test flu'.

I believe that "test flu" and other gear related problems are due the sterility of the gear. Vet gear seems to cause more of these issues than human gear. In my opinion if you get good quality human grade gear you should not have issues like test flu.

 

[bigdelt69]

Oh, so I guess you are saying that all short acting esters have problems with sterility? The amount of BA required to suspend this stuff in oil, is more than enough to take care of any sterility problems. IT IS A KNOW PROVEN FACT THAT ALL FORMS OF TESTOSTERONE CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH IMMUNE FUNCTION.
I have even come across one study that showed Testosterone prop to have a more negative effect on cellular immunity than Testosterone Enanthate. I will dig up the study when I have the time.

BTW- It's nice to actually see some intelligent discussion here on elite.

Karma to Nelson , and buff_rose

 

[duff_rose]

Oh, so I guess you are saying that all short acting esters have problems with sterility? The amount of BA required to suspend this stuff in oil, is more than enough to take care of any sterility problems. IT IS A KNOW PROVEN FACT THAT ALL FORMS OF TESTOSTERONE CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH IMMUNE FUNCTION.

I really didn't make my last statement clear. I should have stated that vet gear will cause MORE problems than human grade gear.

Duff

 

[brotheriron]

Actually in most contries of the world vet products are made to exactly the same standards as human grade gear
Bro

 

[duff_rose]

Actually in most contries of the world vet products are made to exactly the same standards as human grade gear
Bro

I'm sure some companies do a good job in making quality gear for vet purposes. I don't have information on all companies standards nor do I worry about it as I do not juice anymore. However; I have seen test results from companies such as Brovel and Ttokkyo in my juicing days which had disturbingly high number of bacteria. One test on Brovel T-200 came back at 25X the amount of bacteria that is allowed by the FDA, and was underdosed by 25% (It only contained 150mg per ml of test). To make things worse the 10ml bottle only contained 8ml. This is not the kind of stuff I would like to be injecting into my body.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

ester effects release.. which affects activity. as release pattern which can vary A LOT.. affects levels of systemic release which in turn affect level of aromatization, 5a reduction, and can have impact on androgen to estrogen ratios.. (spike and troughs)

the real issue is not "which test is best".. but "which test ester is best for me"... lack of certain esterases or higher levels of them can greatly effect response... esterase activity and "replenishment" (though have not looked at this too closely) are likely factors as well.


btw- oil volume and injection site affects release.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

btw- ester mixing is often best... part of the reason the sustanon is so popular (though it does have draw backs and still should be injected frequently-- for optimal blood levels)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

and agree with duff rose...
ester weight IS important in determining dosing.. though it is but one factor..

 

[duff_rose]

So your sayin all gear is underdosed then?

I believe you are missing the point here. What is labeled on the bottle is how much of the testosterone + ester there is. For example: Let’s say you have a bottle that is labeled 200mg of testosterone enantate per ml. There is only 144mg of actual testosterone per ml, but there is also 56mg of ester weight included per ml. So the label would be correct as there is actually 200mg per ml of testosterone ENANTATE per ml in the bottle (144mg testosterone weight+ 65mg ester weight =200mg total weight). I hope this clears things up for you.

Regards,
Duff

 

[busta246]

ok i got it. thanks for the info! if i knwe how to give karma i would.

 

[duff_rose]

Bump for newbies.

 

[DepressiveJuice]

you know a man is confident in his sexuality when he calls himself duff_rose

 

[duff_rose]

Dude, Rose is my last name.

 

[Watson]

They all cause the same sides, but when more is released at one time those sides are gonna be more severe. Sounds like you guys are arguing about things that should be common sense here. The only test that I can see having any major increase in sides would be the suspension, because it's hitting your system like a ton of bricks almost immediately, and it's all released instead of releasing in halfs.

For easier understanding its like drinking a six pack. If I funnel the enire six pack in 30 seconds I'm gonna have way more severe sides (drunk) than if I drink that six pack over a time period of a couple of hours.

 

[duff_rose]

For easier understanding its like drinking a six pack. If I funnel the enire six pack in 30 seconds I'm gonna have way more severe sides (drunk) than if I drink that six pack over a time period of a couple of hours.

Interesting way to put it, but perhaps this is the best analogy for some.

 

[duff_rose]

Bump for Mr. Black

 

[Skepticore]

As for Nelson's claim that high test levels can result within hours after administration, there's a simple expanation for this.

Even though the test is administered into muscle tissue, and it's relatively hydrophobic (it'd rather be in fat than blood), it is still capable of getting into the bloodstream in it's ESTERIFIED state.

Now, depending on how it is done, the blood test probably does not discriminate between the test ester and the free test forms. Therefore, the test results probably just report the sum total of all test.

Any doctors around that can explain the method behind blood tests?

 

[duff_rose]

^

 

[jb160]

ok i got it. thanks for the info! if i knwe how to give karma i would.

yeah how to give karma 101 where is that tread?

 

[wyld1g]

Ok, I have a question then. If a guy wanted to do 500 test a week should he inject all 500 every 7 days or would it be better to inject 250 every 4th day? And if you do the 250, when it starts to release, is it only going to be 250?

 

[FreakMonster]

LOL

Carol -- a real space case; she believes in crystals, astrology, etc. But she's also 26, blonde and an aerobics instructor, so what the hey? I got her out for coffee and hit her with the blammo pattern. What a cosmic connection! Now she can't keep me out of her mouth and loves to gobble my male energy!

Nice site Riker. We know all women love trouble making jerks.

 

[SwitchedOn]

I believe you are missing the point here. What is labeled on the bottle is how much of the testosterone + ester there is. For example: Let’s say you have a bottle that is labeled 200mg of testosterone enantate per ml. There is only 144mg of actual testosterone per ml, but there is also 56mg of ester weight included per ml. So the label would be correct as there is actually 200mg per ml of testosterone ENANTATE per ml in the bottle (144mg testosterone weight+ 65mg ester weight =200mg total weight). I hope this clears things up for you.

Regards,
Duff

Yep and it basically all comes down to relativity. Does it really matter that you only get 288mg of test per 400mg of test enth? Before this post noone would know any better. It doesn't mean we should use more test to hit that 400mg of test. Like I said it's all relative- if you got results from what you thought you were getting then stick with that.

As far as the half life. Of course a continuous test release would be optimal according to y=ke^rt. This would mean t=0 and y=max. It's not hard to imagine what the graphs of test vs time would look like- always like an e function. But there has to be some middle ground as far as injection frequency. An ester with a longer half-life such as enanthate or cypionate can be injected once per week. However you will have a smoother test graph the higher your injection frequency. Now the question is how this affects your gains, sides, etc.
Is injecting cyp or enth ED more beneficial than every 4th or 5th day? Since your test levels may be "more level" shooting ED then it seems you will get better results. Will the results be noticeable? I seriously doubt it. EOD would be the most frequent I would go with these esters. Since the half-life is so long there won't be much of a difference in test levels after 36-48hrs. BTW I'm speaking more mathematically- it helps me understand things better Just my .02

 

[SwitchedOn]

BTW

BTW-Nice post duff!!!