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SARMS-s4 Study

DJLegacy2k1

New member
Study #1:
Suppression of natural testosterone production is a concern. While many have the impression that S-4 completely lacks suppressive activity at the hypothalamus and pituitary regardless of the dose, this notion is unsupported by the research. This preliminary (link) study on S-4 found that "The activities of S-4 on LH and FSH were similar to those produced by [testosterone propionate] TP. S-1 and S-4 partially suppressed LH production at dose rates of 0.5 mg/day or higher." An absolute dose of 0.5 mg/day is equivalent to 1.9 mg/kg/day in the rats studied. When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, that's 0.31 mg/kg (1.9 * 0.162). As a theoretical extrapolation to a 200 lb (91kg) man, a dose of only 28 mg/day would start to "partially suppress LH production." Reports of suppression at only 50mg/day are consistent with the research on S-4.

Im working on getting the link to the study working...HERE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040238/?tool=pubmed


Study #2: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm900280m

3602 Journal of Medicinal Chemistry, 2009, Vol. 52, No. 12 Award Address
Nonsteroidal Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs): Dissociating the Anabolic and Androgenic Activities of the Androgen Receptor for Therapeutic Benefit - Journal of Medicinal Chemistry (ACS Publications)

Section 1.5.2. Nonsteroidal AR Agonists. The Propionamides.

..the resulting compound known
in the literature as S-4 and in press releases as andarine (S-3-(4-acetylaminophenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-
trifluoromethylphenyl)propionamide) was
shown to possess SARM activity and allowed the pharmacodynamic exploration of this novel class of drugs.

Section 2.1.7. Andarine, the Prototypical Full Efficacy SARM.

Andarine was a SARM that served as the predominant model compound early in the development of the SARM field. Many of the landmark studies with andarine served as proofs-of-concept in the SARM field (e.g., concomitant myo- and osteoanabolism in the absence of VP proliferation, musculoskeletal performance enhancement, etc.). Preclinical characterization of andarine demonstrated high binding affinity for AR (Ki ) 4 nM) and ideal pharmacokinetics (complete oral bioavailability, plasma half-life consistent with daily oral dosing in rats and dogs) with no cross-reactivity with the other nuclear receptors. Myoanabolism was demonstrated in terms of maintenance and restoration of LA weight and restoration of soleus muscle strength in castrated rats. Likewise, osteoanabolism was observed in maintenance and restorative modes in male and female rats with improvements in biomechanical strength, cumulatively demonstrating musculoskeletal performance enhancement. The anabolic effects were also observed at the level of the entire organism as revealed by favorable body composition changes. Importantly, these anabolic effects were tissue-selective when compared to androgenic tissue and HPG axis effects, establishing andarine as a prototypical preclinical SARM. The peripheral and selective anabolic preclinical pharmacodynamic profile of andarine seemed highly promising and stimulated us to pursue landmark clinical trials of the SARMs, andarine and Ostarine. Although phase I studies with andarine were successful with no deficiencies noted , Ostarine was selected for advanced clinical development based on corporate strategy. Readers are cautioned to note that the name Ostarine is often mistakenly linked to the chemical structure of andarine. The chemical structure of Ostarine has not been publicly disclosed. The authors are unable to provide additional information. Collectively, these preclinical and clinical studies have provided the foundation for the massive body of SARM characterizations that are now published and patented (discussed below). Importantly, many of these pharmacodynamic observations have proven to be typical of subsequently published chemodiverse SARMs, as discussed in section 3.


-Legacy
 
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Interesting. So Sarms out for PCT purposes? Is it still good for post PCT as a bridge? Would it itself require a PCT standing alone, if suppressive?
 
Go to the bottom of the results section where they talk specifically about s4, they say its the most anabolic and androgenic of them all and results and side effects are dose dependent. Technically by these standards even 50mg for a 200lb guy is HIGH. Give it a couple reads, it has some alright info in there...

-Legacy
 
Suppression of natural testosterone production is a concern. While many have the impression that S-4 completely lacks suppressive activity at the hypothalamus and pituitary regardless of the dose, this notion is unsupported by the research. This preliminary (link) study on S-4 found that "The activities of S-4 on LH and FSH were similar to those produced by [testosterone propionate] TP. S-1 and S-4 partially suppressed LH production at dose rates of 0.5 mg/day or higher." An absolute dose of 0.5 mg/day is equivalent to 1.9 mg/kg/day in the rats studied. When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, that's 0.31 mg/kg (1.9 * 0.162). As a theoretical extrapolation to a 200 lb (91kg) man, a dose of only 28 mg/day would start to "partially suppress LH production." Reports of suppression at only 50mg/day are consistent with the research on S-4.

Im working on getting the link to the study working...HERE: Pharmacodynamics of Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators

-Legacy


This confirms pretty much what I said just from my personal observations.

SARMS's has it's place, but as a bridge -- nope.

It'd be good as a "taper-off" and even as an "add-on" to a cycle without contributing to further suppression or typical sides. It'd be great for taking "time -off" of HRT. A shot of HCG and SARM's for a couple of weeks will fill the gaps and give the body a chance to build up some natty T, as well as keep the testes nice and full.

It'd be nice to always have some on hand, but don't go overboard. As with anything, use discretion.
 
We'll see what RADAR's blood work shows, until then I am going to say it does not suppress you unless you use high dosages ( 100mg + daily )
 
We'll see what RADAR's blood work shows, until then I am going to say it does not suppress you unless you use high dosages ( 100mg + daily )

Keep in mind 1 persons tests need to be used with medical studies as well, each person will be different, this study clearly states that even 50mg is a high dose.
 
Depends how long you are on, if you have done PCT since last cycle, what you are planning on running, lots of variables.

-Legacy
 
I have stated numerous times now that SARMS are indeed suppressive of natural testosterone production, and appear to be inferior to classical anabolic androgenic steroids for muscle-building purposes. The SARMS fad will end very soon, it was just something new so everyone got excited. This is typical..
 
Depends how long you are on, if you have done PCT since last cycle, what you are planning on running, lots of variables.

-Legacy


was going to do a test e cycle. I did sarms as a bridge between an xtren/winstrol cycle after my pct. I wanted today to start a 12week teste e cycle. Ive been on sarms for 5 weeks .50ml a day. Its been 3 months since I finished my last cycle.
 
Ross, isn't SARMS useful for recomp?

Useful? Barely, when compared head to head against even the MILDEST anabolic steroids.

SARMS have specific therapeutic applications, they are not ideal for most bodybuilders and athletes.
 
was going to do a test e cycle. I did sarms as a bridge between an xtren/winstrol cycle after my pct. I wanted today to start a 12week teste e cycle. Ive been on sarms for 5 weeks .50ml a day. Its been 3 months since I finished my last cycle.

Any shutdown you have should be VERY slight, you are probably fine to go ahead and start up.

-Legacy
 
Useful? Barely, when compared head to head against even the MILDEST anabolic steroids.

SARMS have specific therapeutic applications, they are not ideal for most bodybuilders and athletes.

I think for RECOMP right now its fine, I mean it will help keep current muscle mass while trying to go hard at cutting fat. It also seems to help add density to muscles but not size. The availability to get SARMS right now makes it a decent choice as well. This allows people at a slightly HIGHER bodyfat percentage to push their cardio limits and preserve muscle while burning fat and keeping their recovery up to stay on their program, with LITTLE SHUTDOWN, although it is there.

Slightly better idea for some trying to accomplish this as their goal.

Ross, we tend to not agree, SARMS and shutdown are oddly enough one area where we do agree...What would you replace SARMS with for specific recomp goals, with minimal sides and no need for HARDCORE PCT? This is the area which I think SARMS has its place.

Open for discussion...

-Legacy
 
What kind of PCT should be used for, say, 50mg/day for a 6 week cycle? Even if just to be on the safe side...
 
What kind of PCT should be used for, say, 50mg/day for a 6 week cycle? Even if just to be on the safe side...

Natural stuff should be fine if you stayed at 50mg ed, HCGenerate+UNLEASHED should workout or add in Sustain Alpha and see how you do.

-Legacy
 
Sarms has NEVER shut me down and I would not listen to anything that ross has to say.

Understandable, but this clinical trial and I know I have 1 or 2 more somewhere that all stated that Shutdown was present, to what degree Im sure varies and is dose dependent, but they all showed shutdown to some degree after a certain dose and time frame. Im still looking to find where I saved the others.

-Legacy
 
SARMS-s4 Study #2:

Nonsteroidal Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs): Dissociating the Anabolic and Androgenic Activities of the Androgen Receptor for Therapeutic Benefit - Journal of Medicinal Chemistry (ACS Publications)

3602 Journal of Medicinal Chemistry, 2009, Vol. 52, No. 12 Award Address
Nonsteroidal Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators (SARMs): Dissociating the Anabolic and Androgenic Activities of the Androgen Receptor for Therapeutic Benefit - Journal of Medicinal Chemistry (ACS Publications)

Section 1.5.2. Nonsteroidal AR Agonists. The Propionamides.

..the resulting compound known
in the literature as S-4 and in press releases as andarine (S-3-(4-acetylaminophenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro-3-
trifluoromethylphenyl)propionamide) was
shown to possess SARM activity and allowed the pharmacodynamic exploration of this novel class of drugs.

Section 2.1.7. Andarine, the Prototypical Full Efficacy SARM.

Andarine was a SARM that served as the predominant model compound early in the development of the SARM field. Many of the landmark studies with andarine served as proofs-of-concept in the SARM field (e.g., concomitant myo- and osteoanabolism in the absence of VP proliferation, musculoskeletal performance enhancement, etc.). Preclinical characterization of andarine demonstrated high binding affinity for AR (Ki ) 4 nM) and ideal pharmacokinetics (complete oral bioavailability, plasma half-life consistent with daily oral dosing in rats and dogs) with no cross-reactivity with the other nuclear receptors. Myoanabolism was demonstrated in terms of maintenance and restoration of LA weight and restoration of soleus muscle strength in castrated rats. Likewise, osteoanabolism was observed in maintenance and restorative modes in male and female rats with improvements in biomechanical strength, cumulatively demonstrating musculoskeletal performance enhancement. The anabolic effects were also observed at the level of the entire organism as revealed by favorable body composition changes. Importantly, these anabolic effects were tissue-selective when compared to androgenic tissue and HPG axis effects, establishing andarine as a prototypical preclinical SARM. The peripheral and selective anabolic preclinical pharmacodynamic profile of andarine seemed highly promising and stimulated us to pursue landmark clinical trials of the SARMs, andarine and Ostarine. Although phase I studies with andarine were successful with no deficiencies noted , Ostarine was selected for advanced clinical development based on corporate strategy. Readers are cautioned to note that the name Ostarine is often mistakenly linked to the chemical structure of andarine. The chemical structure of Ostarine has not been publicly disclosed. The authors are unable to provide additional information. Collectively, these preclinical and clinical studies have provided the foundation for the massive body of SARM characterizations that are now published and patented (discussed below). Importantly, many of these pharmacodynamic observations have proven to be typical of subsequently published chemodiverse SARMs, as discussed in section 3.

-Legacy
 
I think for RECOMP right now its fine, I mean it will help keep current muscle mass while trying to go hard at cutting fat. It also seems to help add density to muscles but not size. The availability to get SARMS right now makes it a decent choice as well. This allows people at a slightly HIGHER bodyfat percentage to push their cardio limits and preserve muscle while burning fat and keeping their recovery up to stay on their program, with LITTLE SHUTDOWN, although it is there.

Slightly better idea for some trying to accomplish this as their goal.

Ross, we tend to not agree, SARMS and shutdown are oddly enough one area where we do agree...What would you replace SARMS with for specific recomp goals, with minimal sides and no need for HARDCORE PCT? This is the area which I think SARMS has its place.

Open for discussion...

-Legacy


There are almost a dozen different anabolic steroids that you could use for specific recomposition goals, with minimal sides and no need for a "hardcore PCT"; Methenolone, Boldenone, Drostanolone, Oxandrolone, fluoxymesterone, Turinabol, Stanozolol, Testosterone undecanoate...

You should also know, there are many different SARMS. None of the SARMs yet developed are truly selective for anabolic effects in muscle or bone tissues without producing any androgenic effects in tissues such as the prostate gland, however several non-steroidal androgens show a ratio of anabolic to androgenic effects of greater than 3:1 and up to as much as 10:1, compared to testosertone which has a ratio of 1:1.


These are the SARMS currently available:

AC-262,356[10]
Andarine ("S-4") - partial agonist, intended mainly for treatment of benign prostatic hypertrophy
BMS-564,929 - mainly affects muscle growth, intended as general treatment for symptoms of andropause
JNJ-28330835.[11][12]
LGD-2226 - affects both muscle and bone
LGD-3303[13]
Ostarine [14] - affects both muscle and bone, intended mainly for osteoporosis but also general treatment for andropause
S-23 - under development as a male hormonal contraceptive[15]
S-40503 - selective for bone tissue, particularly low virilization, intended for osteoporosis and may be suitable for use in women

^ Piu F, Gardell LR, Son T, Schlienger N, Lund BW, Schiffer HH, Vanover KE, Davis RE, Olsson R, Bradley SR (March 2008). "Pharmacological characterization of AC-262536, a novel selective androgen receptor modulator". J. Steroid Biochem. Mol. Biol. 109 (1-2): 129–37. doi:10.1016/j.jsbmb.2007.11.001. PMID 18164613.
^ Zhang X, Li X, Allan GF, Sbriscia T, Linton O, Lundeen SG, Sui Z (January 2007). "Serendipitous discovery of novel imidazolopyrazole scaffold as selective androgen receptor modulators". Bioorganic & Medicinal Chemistry Letters 17 (2): 439–43. doi:10.1016/j.bmcl.2006.10.035. PMID 17079140.
^ Allan GF, Tannenbaum P, Sbriscia T, et al. (2007). "A selective androgen receptor modulator with minimal prostate hypertrophic activity enhances lean body mass in male rats and stimulates sexual behavior in female rats". Endocrine 32 (1): 41–51. doi:10.1007/s12020-007-9005-2. PMID 17992601.
^ Vajda EG, López FJ, Rix P, Hill R, Chen Y, Lee KJ, O'Brien Z, Chang WY, Meglasson MD, Lee YH (February 2009). "Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of LGD-3303 [9-chloro-2-ethyl-1-methyl-3-(2,2,2-trifluoroethyl)-3H-pyrrolo-[3,2-f]quinolin-7(6H)-one], an orally available nonsteroidal-selective androgen receptor modulator". J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 328 (2): 663–70. doi:10.1124/jpet.108.146811. PMID 19017848.
^ Kearbey JD, Gao W, Narayanan R, et al. (2007). "Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator (SARM) treatment prevents bone loss and reduces body fat in ovariectomized rats". Pharm. Res. 24 (2): 328–35. doi:10.1007/s11095-006-9152-9. PMID 17063395.
^ Jones A, Chen J, Hwang DJ, Miller DD, Dalton JT (January 2009). "Preclinical characterization of a (S)-N-(4-cyano-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-3-(3-fluoro, 4-chlorophenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-propanamide: a selective androgen receptor modulator for hormonal male contraception". Endocrinology 150 (1): 385–95. doi:10.1210/en.2008-0674. PMID 18772237.
 
I know all about the different SARMS but some downfalls to the other said compounds some include: Cost, effectiveness, joint pains, methylated, liver/kidney issues, injections (for some an issue). I mean EVERYTHING has its downside, I for one ran Var for 6 weeks and didnt think the results were worth the cost for example. There are logs on numerous boards of people having good recomp results and all SARMS studies so far make some mentions of Body Comp shifts to the positive.

I do agree that their are MANY compounds that do good work but ALL have downfalls, if there was 1 or 2 compounds that worked perfectly with no downside there wouldnt be the need for 50 different options, they all have their place. People with higher levels of fat need to be careful with many of the compounds and monitor the release of estrogen into their bodies and aromatization so that they dont do more harm than good. Obviously they can counter this with other medical compounds but again we are talking about their ability to run these compounds successfully to get the desired results. SARMS seem to be much milder, slow, steady, consistent, for most people.

Just stating that I think SARMS does have a place for SOME people for recomp projects along with things like the LIPOSHRED stack from OMEGA, if they want to avoid some of the other "issues" with other compounds.

Just friendly discussion :-)

-Legacy
 
Zero shutdown at 50mgs ed, may get some at higher doses, but you will have trouble seeing anyway, lol.

thanks for the info DJ.

Im going to be getting back on the s4 to get ready for pool season soon.
 
Zero shutdown at 50mgs ed, may get some at higher doses, but you will have trouble seeing anyway, lol.

thanks for the info DJ.

Im going to be getting back on the s4 to get ready for pool season soon.

S4 isn't for muscle growth.
 
I think most people are using it for this quote Ross: "The anabolic effects were also observed at the level of the entire organism as revealed by favorable body composition changes."

-Legacy

For bodybuilders, these favorable body composition changes are minimal, especially compared to most anabolic steroids. I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate though, the purpose of this thread is information. :)
 
For bodybuilders, these favorable body composition changes are minimal, especially compared to most anabolic steroids. I do appreciate you playing devil's advocate though, the purpose of this thread is information. :)

Yeah I like to cover both sides of the issue so as to remain sympathetic to all people concerned :-) Keeps things civil on my side.

We also need to take in account the person starting a SARMs treatments' starting composition. If they are just starting out with little to no AAS history, higher BF%, and mainly focusing on preserving muscle while cutting this has a place because they may not be looking for or comparing it to the results of stonger AAS. If the person is someone with low body fat and a past history of AAS use then they will probably be let down because it is not going to add 15lbs of mass and shed 20lbs of fat in 6 weeks.

I agree many compounds will give more pronounced results, but that doesnt mean SARMS should be completely counted out as having SOME benefits and uses for certain people.

-Legacy
 
well has anyone noticeed testicular atrophy running sarms as with aas?Never read anyone noticing this.After a good pct doing sarm at low doses can be a very good bridge without shutting you hard you will be mantaining testicular funtion and getting a help in recovery and fat loss mantaing your gains until your next cycle
 
I'm learning a lot here, thanks you guys. I'm glad I didn't use it during PCT. How long do you think I should wait post PCT to start? I plan on cutting immediately after I finish PCT.
 
well has anyone noticeed testicular atrophy running sarms as with aas?Never read anyone noticing this.After a good pct doing sarm at low doses can be a very good bridge without shutting you hard you will be mantaining testicular funtion and getting a help in recovery and fat loss mantaing your gains until your next cycle


Yes, if you read on some other boards as well as a member or 2 on here, they at least REPORTED some shrinkage and the feeling of being shutdown, along with some sexual sides. There havent been any BLOOD work panels that I can find that the person ran SARMS ALONE with NO OTHER compounds, so it is hard to say 100% but all clinical trials have shown some shutdown in animal trials at certain doses.

-Legacy
 
well has anyone noticeed testicular atrophy running sarms as with aas?Never read anyone noticing this.After a good pct doing sarm at low doses can be a very good bridge without shutting you hard you will be mantaining testicular funtion and getting a help in recovery and fat loss mantaing your gains until your next cycle


No shrinkage at all, this stuff is great as a stand alone, a bridge and durinng pct.
 
I'm learning a lot here, thanks you guys. I'm glad I didn't use it during PCT. How long do you think I should wait post PCT to start? I plan on cutting immediately after I finish PCT.

You should be good to go with sarms as soon as your PCT is completed and you are sure you are back 100%. You might want to give it a couple weeks if you want but the shutdown is minor at 50mg if you experience any at all, we just want to show that their IS a SLIGHT risk and has been shown in many animal trials.

-Legacy
 
No shrinkage at all, this stuff is great as a stand alone, a bridge and durinng pct.

I still dont agree with PCT uses...any substance with ANY risk of ANY amount of shutdown should be avoided. Even if you recover SOME during PCT because the shutdown is SLIGHT with SARMS it COULD stop you from recovering 100%, thus the argument for its uses in PCT.

-Legacy
 
I still dont agree with PCT uses...any substance with ANY risk of ANY amount of shutdown should be avoided. Even if you recover SOME during PCT because the shutdown is SLIGHT with SARMS it COULD stop you from recovering 100%, thus the argument for its uses in PCT.

-Legacy
yes keep it on the safe side and avoid it at pct.for bridging go for a low dose there shouldnt be problems.I still use it preworkout for shoulders back and arms sometimes at pct at 20 30 mg for some placebo effect ahah and it doesnt mess with my pct.
 
SARMS should be avoided completely during PCT, the minimal anabolic effects are offset by it's negative effect on the HPTA, during this extremely critical period of time.
 
SARMS should be avoided completely during PCT, the minimal anabolic effects are offset by it's negative effect on the HPTA, during this extremely critical period of time.
well makes sense...I´ll follow your advice and no more sarms preworkout in pct!
 
sarms at a low dose is great during PCT, do a search and you will see.

Most people will agree that Ross has some interesting views, but he is also be been banned from every board including EF for being completely full of shit. Please keep that in mind.

He does offer some interesting feedback.
 
sarms at a low dose is great during PCT, do a search and you will see.

Most people will agree that Ross has some interesting views, but he is also be been banned from every board including EF for being completely full of shit. Please keep that in mind.

He does offer some interesting feedback.

The only times Ive talked with Ross on boards were completely ummm "opposing views", lets say.

But Truck the fundamental use of PCT is to COMPLETELY RESTORE all shutdown and using any product that has any risk of not RESTORING all functionality back to 100% should be avoided to INSURE full restoration to that point, correct?

Every medical/clinical study has PROVEN shutdown and the risks of it, even stating that even 50mg for a 200lb person is HIGH. We have that vs the "feelings" of people using SARMS, normally along with combinations of several other drugs that are normally used in PCT.

The defense of how people "feel" or if SOME of their shutdown is reduced if used with other PCT drugs does NOT prove that they will be 100% restored or if SARMS is still causing some shutdown or slowdown of the process.

Thus the only FACTS in studies that we have state potential SHUTDOWN and thus anyone running PCT would normally want to stay away form the product due to the RISK being there. The idea that everyone is "defensive" of its use in PCT still doesnt make sense to me when looking at the medical facts.

-Legacy
 
At lower doses there is no shutdown, all the blodwork being done backs it up.

clomid at high doses can shut you down.....and its used in most PCT
 
At lower doses there is no shutdown, all the blodwork being done backs it up.

clomid at high doses can shut you down.....and its used in most PCT

Exactly and many members of this board and many others think that use of Clomid and Nolva and such products is very risky to peoples health and are now looking for more natural and healthy ways to recover.

I havent seen a single blood test with someone using SARMS ALONE with no other chemicals at all, or comparison tests showing tims to recover with standard PCT against PCT using SARMS to prove whether or not the person recovered 100% in the same amount of time and that SARMS did not slow the process.

Just stating no one should be making DEFINITE assumptions about the use of SARMS when the only medical information we have on it states the OPPOSITE of what the "users" are stating.

Truck, please keep in mind I AM CURRENTLY USING SARMS for my own tests so I am not against the substance, I am just looking at all the facts that we have so far.

-Legacy
 
sarms at a low dose is great during PCT, do a search and you will see.

Most people will agree that Ross has some interesting views, but he is also be been banned from every board including EF for being completely full of shit. Please keep that in mind.

He does offer some interesting feedback.

I've never been banned from a board for expressing my scientific perspective, but rather, HOW I have expressed these views in the past.

When I started frequenting the various internet bodybuilding forums over 10 years ago, many of my theories were vehemently opposed, and now in many cases, they are accepted as the standard(low dosage testosterone, the effects of steroidal esterfication, combining oral steroids for optimal anabolism, PRE-PCT, etc.). Bodybuilders must EVOLVE with the discovery of new information. After all, it was Dan Duchaine who first introduced Clomid and Nolvadex to the bodybuilding community over 15 years ago, and our knowledge of PCT has improved DRASTICALLY since then. The way that we utilize anabolic steroids improves as our knowledge does.

I am here to offer a perspective. I support all of my theories with the scientific evidence that is available, so it is your choice to ultimately formulate your own decisions. I'm happy to be here. :)
 
At lower doses there is no shutdown, all the blodwork being done backs it up.

clomid at high doses can shut you down.....and its used in most PCT

You got anything to back that statement up...?

Clomid at high doses will reduce sperm count, but I'm yet to read anything on endogenous testosterone, LH and FSH levels.
 
I've never been banned from a board for expressing my scientific perspective, but rather, HOW I have expressed these views in the past.

When I started frequenting the various internet bodybuilding forums over 10 years ago, many of my theories were vehemently opposed, and now in many cases, they are accepted as the standard(low dosage testosterone, the effects of steroidal esterfication, combining oral steroids for optimal anabolism, PRE-PCT, etc.). Bodybuilders must EVOLVE with the discovery of new information. After all, it was Dan Duchaine who first introduced Clomid and Nolvadex to the bodybuilding community over 15 years ago, and our knowledge of PCT has improved DRASTICALLY since then. The way that we utilize anabolic steroids improves as our knowledge does.

I am here to offer a perspective. I support all of my theories with the scientific evidence that is available, so it is your choice to ultimately formulate your own decisions. I'm happy to be here. :)

Oh come off it Ross.

"low dosage testosterone" - Otehr's use low doses too. Such as myself and always have done.

"the effects of steroidal esterfication" - You stole that from Anthony Roberts (Conners).

"cOmbining orals" - You wernt the first to add two orals together.

Do you honestly think anything you have ever done is ground breaking? Because its not, by ANYONE's stretch of imagination.
 
Can we NOT have my informational thread get lock due to ROSS bashing...There are a million other threads for that! lol :-)

-Legacy
 
Oh come off it Ross.

"low dosage testosterone" - Otehr's use low doses too. Such as myself and always have done.

"the effects of steroidal esterfication" - You stole that from Anthony Roberts (Conners).

"cOmbining orals" - You wernt the first to add two orals together.

Do you honestly think anything you have ever done is ground breaking? Because its not, by ANYONE's stretch of imagination.

agreed.

A very well respected member of the BB community should be getting blood work soon. Stay tuned.
 
Exactly and many members of this board and many others think that use of Clomid and Nolva and such products is very risky to peoples health and are now looking for more natural and healthy ways to recover.

I havent seen a single blood test with someone using SARMS ALONE with no other chemicals at all, or comparison tests showing tims to recover with standard PCT against PCT using SARMS to prove whether or not the person recovered 100% in the same amount of time and that SARMS did not slow the process.

Just stating no one should be making DEFINITE assumptions about the use of SARMS when the only medical information we have on it states the OPPOSITE of what the "users" are stating.

Truck, please keep in mind I AM CURRENTLY USING SARMS for my own tests so I am not against the substance, I am just looking at all the facts that we have so far.

-Legacy

What natural ways may I ask?

Clomid, Nolva, Aromasin, Hcg ..all of them are effective for PCT as long as used correctly. The same thing we could say about Sarms-4 which at low dosages will help maintain some gains.

For PCT I would use what works for me : Aromasin , HCG and S4, maybe add some Lr3.

DO not listen to Ross , he obviously has something against the sponsor who sells S4 on this forum.

C
 
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I have stated numerous times now that SARMS are indeed suppressive of natural testosterone production, and appear to be inferior to classical anabolic androgenic steroids for muscle-building purposes. The SARMS fad will end very soon, it was just something new so everyone got excited. This is typical..

How do you know all of this?

Were you the "one" who researched this chemical a few years before it was introduced to the BBing community?

Did you have it synthesized by real chemists? Did you invest money into it?


I GUARANTEE YOU THERE IS NO FAD and I know for a "fact" which I am not even get into it here on the forums that some "real" athletes have been using it already as it was available to them since the time it was introduced back in early 2008.

Show SOLID OF PROOF of your claims or do not post anything at all.

C
 
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There are almost a dozen different anabolic steroids that you could use for specific recomposition goals, with minimal sides and no need for a "hardcore PCT"; Methenolone, Boldenone, Drostanolone, Oxandrolone, fluoxymesterone, Turinabol, Stanozolol, Testosterone undecanoate...

You should also know, there are many different SARMS. None of the SARMs yet developed are truly selective for anabolic effects in muscle or bone tissues without producing any androgenic effects in tissues such as the prostate gland, however several non-steroidal androgens show a ratio of anabolic to androgenic effects of greater than 3:1 and up to as much as 10:1, compared to testosertone which has a ratio of 1:1.


These are the SARMS currently available:

AC-262,356[10]
Andarine ("S-4") - partial agonist, intended mainly for treatment of benign prostatic hypertrophy
BMS-564,929 - mainly affects muscle growth, intended as general treatment for symptoms of andropause
JNJ-28330835.[11][12]
LGD-2226 - affects both muscle and bone
LGD-3303[13]
Ostarine [14] - affects both muscle and bone, intended mainly for osteoporosis but also general treatment for andropause
S-23 - under development as a male hormonal contraceptive[15]
S-40503 - selective for bone tissue, particularly low virilization, intended for osteoporosis and may be suitable for use in women

^ Piu F, Gardell LR, Son T, Schlienger N, Lund BW, Schiffer HH, Vanover KE, Davis RE, Olsson R, Bradley SR (March 2008). "Pharmacological characterization of AC-262536, a novel selective androgen receptor modulator". J. Steroid Biochem. Mol. Biol. 109 (1-2): 129–37. doi:10.1016/j.jsbmb.2007.11.001. PMID 18164613.
^ Zhang X, Li X, Allan GF, Sbriscia T, Linton O, Lundeen SG, Sui Z (January 2007). "Serendipitous discovery of novel imidazolopyrazole scaffold as selective androgen receptor modulators". Bioorganic & Medicinal Chemistry Letters 17 (2): 439–43. doi:10.1016/j.bmcl.2006.10.035. PMID 17079140.
^ Allan GF, Tannenbaum P, Sbriscia T, et al. (2007). "A selective androgen receptor modulator with minimal prostate hypertrophic activity enhances lean body mass in male rats and stimulates sexual behavior in female rats". Endocrine 32 (1): 41–51. doi:10.1007/s12020-007-9005-2. PMID 17992601.
^ Vajda EG, López FJ, Rix P, Hill R, Chen Y, Lee KJ, O'Brien Z, Chang WY, Meglasson MD, Lee YH (February 2009). "Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of LGD-3303 [9-chloro-2-ethyl-1-methyl-3-(2,2,2-trifluoroethyl)-3H-pyrrolo-[3,2-f]quinolin-7(6H)-one], an orally available nonsteroidal-selective androgen receptor modulator". J. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther. 328 (2): 663–70. doi:10.1124/jpet.108.146811. PMID 19017848.
^ Kearbey JD, Gao W, Narayanan R, et al. (2007). "Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator (SARM) treatment prevents bone loss and reduces body fat in ovariectomized rats". Pharm. Res. 24 (2): 328–35. doi:10.1007/s11095-006-9152-9. PMID 17063395.
^ Jones A, Chen J, Hwang DJ, Miller DD, Dalton JT (January 2009). "Preclinical characterization of a (S)-N-(4-cyano-3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-3-(3-fluoro, 4-chlorophenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-propanamide: a selective androgen receptor modulator for hormonal male contraception". Endocrinology 150 (1): 385–95. doi:10.1210/en.2008-0674. PMID 18772237.

WRONG ABOUT THE S-4, did you modified your "copy and paste"?
 
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carlito, why is it that everytime someone questions S-4 (as in the compound, not your buddy who sells the stuff) you go on to accuse people of having personal vendettas with the sponsor (your buddy) ?
 
carlito, why is it that everytime someone questions S-4 (as in the compound, not your buddy who sells the stuff) you go on to accuse people of having personal vendettas with the sponsor (your buddy) ?

You said it, is my friend and also because is not fair Ross makes false claims without proof.
 
I think that would RADAR but there are others who have done it and have reported no shut down.

C

Radar is is a respected bro for sure, but I am speaking of another vet.

And Ross always has some kind of agenda.

I wont be hanging around elite if he stays on here. Plenty of other boards to go to where he is not.
 
Oh come off it Ross.

"low dosage testosterone" - Otehr's use low doses too. Such as myself and always have done.

"the effects of steroidal esterfication" - You stole that from Anthony Roberts (Conners).

"cOmbining orals" - You wernt the first to add two orals together.

Do you honestly think anything you have ever done is ground breaking? Because its not, by ANYONE's stretch of imagination.

Swifto, you and I both know that I have made many major intellectual contributions to the bodybuilding and steroid community, do a simple google or visit my forums and you'll easily catch a glimpse. Before I came around, everyone believed that "ALL anabolic steroids cause complete HPTA shutdown"!

If nothing more, I stimulate intense intellectual discourse, which only leads to the discovery of new and useful information.
 
Radar is is a respected bro for sure, but I am speaking of another vet.

And Ross always has some kind of agenda.

I wont be hanging around elite if he stays on here. Plenty of other boards to go to where he is not.

I have no agenda, and I have nothing against any of the fine sponsors here at Elite Fitness. I am simply stating the facts about sarms, which is only to benefit the forum.

You can go to other boards that discourage the exchange of ideas, there are plenty out there. ;)
 
carlito, why is it that everytime someone questions S-4 (as in the compound, not your buddy who sells the stuff) you go on to accuse people of having personal vendettas with the sponsor (your buddy) ?

Exactly, this carlito fool is really becoming annoying, if you are a representative or affiliate of a sponsor you need to indicate that in your signature. Anytime someone mentions a sarm, he comes running in here hurling insults. Not cool here at EF, not at all bro..
 
I have no agenda, and I have nothing against any of the fine sponsors here at Elite Fitness. I am simply stating the facts about sarms, which is only to benefit the forum.

You can go to other boards that discourage the exchange of ideas, there are plenty out there. ;)

Ross, you are not respected on any boards, I have no clue what the brass here at elite are doing by letting you back on here.

You have been banned here before correct?
 
Truckdaddy, I'm still waiting for references of your claim that Clomid at high doses is suppressive to the HPTA? So...

Or did you believe something Nelson wrote about it without references?
 
From the research I have seen on SARMs, they are suppressive at around 30mg/ED (lower LH) and are selctive in the prostate and subconscious glands (acne).

There far from all there cracked up to be.
 
From the research I have seen on SARMs, they are suppressive at around 30mg/ED (lower LH) and are selctive in the prostate and subconscious glands (acne).

There far from all there cracked up to be.

Good post old friend.
 
Exactly, this carlito fool is really becoming annoying, if you are a representative or affiliate of a sponsor you need to indicate that in your signature. Anytime someone mentions a sarm, he comes running in here hurling insults. Not cool here at EF, not at all bro..
You are the fool for stating false claims without solid proof to back them up. YOU can state whatever you want but you need to add that is your own opinion not FACTS.

I do not need no signature or anything like that, I already stated that the sponsor is a friend of mine.
 
Ross, you are not respected on any boards, I have no clue what the brass here at elite are doing by letting you back on here.

You have been banned here before correct?

He is not respected anywhere and has been banned from every forum there is for the same reason that he always stirs shit up and eventually drives members away including sponsors.
 
He is not respected anywhere and has been banned from every forum there is for the same reason that he always stirs shit up and eventually drives members away including sponsors.

HAHA! Quite the contrary, I ATTRACT members and SPONSORS, so don't try to use your bullshit scare tactics on Big Rick and the boys. I am friends with them and have been for years. When I am posting on these forums, TRAFFIC IS ALWAYS INCREASED. PERIOD.

I support all of Elite's fine sponsors. If anyone wants to buy SARMS, Elite Fitness is the place to look.
 
HAHA! Quite the contrary, I ATTRACT members and SPONSORS, so don't try to use your bullshit scare tactics on Big Rick and the boys. I am friends with them and have been for years. When I am posting on these forums, TRAFFIC IS ALWAYS INCREASED. PERIOD.

I support all of Elite's fine sponsors. If anyone wants to buy SARMS, Elite Fitness is the place to look.

LOL!
Delusional to say the least ....I see you are still smoking that garbage , uh?
We'll see if is true you being here will keep a certain sponsor on EF and I hope you got the money to replace them.
Do you still talk shit about Colombians and drug dealers?
 
LOL!
Delusional to say the least ....I see you are still smoking that garbage , uh?
We'll see if is true you being here will keep a certain sponsor on EF and I hope you got the money to replace them.
Do you still talk shit about Colombians and drug dealers?

Let me make myself CLEAR:

SARMS are useful for bodybuilding purposes under certain conditions, but they are not a replacement for anabolic steroids, as many had previously thought they would be. That does NOT mean however that they shouldn't be used during a cycle, and in fact, I suggest trying it if you have the money. I support all of Elite's fine sponsors, and if anyone is going to be buying sarms, they should buy it from them.

For PCT however, sarms are to be avoided.
 
BACK TO THE GOD DAMNED INFORMATION...

Make another thread to debate Ross outside of the AA forum if you really want to. None of these arguments on the last 2 pages have ANYTHING to do with the medical studies on SARMS. Also anyone saying "SARMS are GREAT for PCT" you are debating medical facts with how "people feel" not a factual debate. Lots of variables need to be tested with SARMS to state anything refuted in the scientific facts.

SARMS are sill helping me with the recomp project so no one here is "bashing" SARMS just showing the facts on suppression RISKS. Also if one bro weighing 230lbs isnt showing shutdown at 50mg doesnt mean the 180lb guy wont, it is dose dependent, side effects in people are usually selective to their outcome and severity.

Back to the topic or find a new thread please.

Not being disrespectful, I just dont want to see informational threads getting locked for BS reasons.

thank You

-Legacy
 
BACK TO THE GOD DAMNED INFORMATION...

Make another thread to debate Ross outside of the AA forum if you really want to. None of these arguments on the last 2 pages have ANYTHING to do with the medical studies on SARMS. Also anyone saying "SARMS are GREAT for PCT" you are debating medical facts with how "people feel" not a factual debate. Lots of variables need to be tested with SARMS to state anything refuted in the scientific facts.

SARMS are sill helping me with the recomp project so no one here is "bashing" SARMS just showing the facts on suppression RISKS. Also if one bro weighing 230lbs isnt showing shutdown at 50mg doesnt mean the 180lb guy wont, it is dose dependent, side effects in people are usually selective to their outcome and severity.

Back to the topic or find a new thread please.

Not being disrespectful, I just dont want to see informational threads getting locked for BS reasons.

thank You

-Legacy

Brilliant fucking post.

Seriously bro, I like you.
 
if you want t get "huge" like a bodybuilder the you would need to use trenbolone, testosterone, GH etc...

If you want to stay lean , muscular ( Men's Health look ) strong and fit without acne, bloat, not being able to fit your clothes, running out of breath , etc and still be chemically enhanced ( S-4 is a true chem with real world effects ) then you would use Sarms-4 and other supplements.

Just like many out there who have done their fair share of steroids I got tired of it; now enjoy being fit and lean but mainly strong because the sarms-4 does ( in my case ) give me the strength not even creatine can without being bloated, I like fitting in my clothes and I love jogging, I feel a lot better than when I used steroids.

So again, if you want to look like Jay Cuttler then steroids will help but if supplements are not enough for you and you do not want to RISK your health by using steroids or want to break the law then you can add some peptides like Lr3igf-1 or Sarms to your supplement arsenal and you will notice the difference.
C
 
I agree, If you are recomping and want to save muscle SARMS does well or if you are just starting out and want to "test the waters" for whatever reason and are not quiet ready for real AAS I think it would at least give the person some aid in added recovery and such. It has its places...

-Legacy
 
I agree, If you are recomping and want to save muscle SARMS does well or if you are just starting out and want to "test the waters" for whatever reason and are not quiet ready for real AAS I think it would at least give the person some aid in added recovery and such. It has its places...

-Legacy

I agree with you. Sarms can not be compared to steroids and I would go out on a limb and say it may even help some avoid using steroids ever and/or breaking the law.

Sarms-4 can help retain muscle and strength gains but if used in high dosages it "can" be suppressive although there is no proof of that but I am only guessing considering other drugs used for PCT can also cause suppression like clomid, Hcg , letrozole, etc BUT if used correctly during PCT it can help bring back natural testosterone levels. I do not believe Sarms-4 can help bring back natural testosterone levels but it has anabolic effects the same way Lr3igf-1 does and also is used by many while n PCT ( as an addition just for its anabolic effects- preserve muscle mass )

Peace!

C
 
I agree with you. Sarms can not be compared to steroids and I would go out on a limb and say it may even help some avoid using steroids ever and/or breaking the law.

Sarms-4 can help retain muscle and strength gains but if used in high dosages it "can" be suppressive although there is no proof of that but I am only guessing considering other drugs used for PCT can also cause suppression like clomid, Hcg , letrozole, etc BUT if used correctly during PCT it can help bring back natural testosterone levels. I do not believe Sarms-4 can help bring back natural testosterone levels but it has anabolic effects the same way Lr3igf-1 does and also is used by many while n PCT ( as an addition just for its anabolic effects- preserve muscle mass )

Peace!

C

Not sure which part you said that there is no proof of, because in the animal trials they found slight shut down in every single test I have found so far, its just dependent on weight and variables obviously.

If you are talking about the shutdown from clomid, I havent checked it out so I wont speculate :-)

-Legacy
 
Not sure which part you said that there is no proof of, because in the animal trials they found slight shut down in every single test I have found so far, its just dependent on weight and variables obviously.

If you are talking about the shutdown from clomid, I havent checked it out so I wont speculate :-)

-Legacy

Human trials? that is what I meant. I know about all of the studies and some of them are conflictive and inconclusive that is why this Sarms-4 is a "research chemical" not a "drug medication"

Too much Clomid , Hcg or any of the AI can cause a rebound effect and that is my opinion from years of experience in the forums, the market, the sport, the research biz, etc.

C
 
Human trials? that is what I meant. I know about all of the studies and some of them are conflictive and inconclusive that is why this Sarms-4 is a "research chemical" not a "drug medication"

Too much Clomid , Hcg or any of the AI can cause a rebound effect and that is my opinion from years of experience in the forums, the market, the sport, the research biz, etc.

C

Right, as far as human trials go then, we cant even say they effect us at all because all human information medically has been LIMITED at best. So until there are more controlled, monitored, testing, no one can really say exactly how SARMS effects humans, other than reports of slight strength and recovery effects.

-Legacy
 
Truckdaddy, I'm still waiting for references of your claim that Clomid at high doses is suppressive to the HPTA? So...

Or did you believe something Nelson wrote about it without references?

Still waiting....Truckdaddy.

Or shall I assume you dont actually have a referenece?
 
Started sarms on Jan. 1 @ 205lbs, 5'6. 50mg/day split into 2 doses. Currently coasting at 192 and alot leaner. Other than the standard vision issues, I've had itching dry skin and suppression/shutdown after 4-5 weeks of use. I do enjoy the product and will use it again. It seems to work good at preserving muscle, however I would not go around making claims that it is not suppressive. Every person will react differently regardless of dosage.

I look forward to seeing any future human studies and new research on sarms.
 
Started sarms on Jan. 1 @ 205lbs, 5'6. 50mg/day split into 2 doses. Currently coasting at 192 and alot leaner. Other than the standard vision issues, I've had itching dry skin and suppression/shutdown after 4-5 weeks of use. I do enjoy the product and will use it again. It seems to work good at preserving muscle, however I would not go around making claims that it is not suppressive. Every person will react differently regardless of dosage.

I look forward to seeing any future human studies and new research on sarms.

Did you have blood work done pre and post S4 cycle ?

Thanks

C
 
No sir. I have another bottle on the shelf, will prabably just finish it off with a bottle of unleashed. We shall see. I really enjoy how it has helped me lean out and muscles are alot denser. :)
 
Started sarms on Jan. 1 @ 205lbs, 5'6. 50mg/day split into 2 doses. Currently coasting at 192 and alot leaner. Other than the standard vision issues, I've had itching dry skin and suppression/shutdown after 4-5 weeks of use. I do enjoy the product and will use it again. It seems to work good at preserving muscle, however I would not go around making claims that it is not suppressive. Every person will react differently regardless of dosage.

I look forward to seeing any future human studies and new research on sarms.

Very good feedback, thanks.
 
I had no suppression issues with sarms, stack it with a nice thermo....and get ready fir the beach.

I was at the Arnolds last weekend in Columbus and you might be surprised who is using sarms.

I asked a a well known pro about its use in PCT. He said that most pros, never fully come off and dont use a real PCT. But great for a brigde.... But to the average user, its would work WELL in a PCT.....and to a drug tested athlete, its amazing.

That being said, wow, there were some monsters out there. Even the chicks were huge.
 
I am interested in trying sarms. I have tried (not sure if I can mention this in the forum) G_B before my question is- is sarms similiar as far as results compared to G_B? I only ask because it sounds like it does the same thing. Thank you
 
I had no suppression issues with sarms, stack it with a nice thermo....and get ready fir the beach.

I was at the Arnolds last weekend in Columbus and you might be surprised who is using sarms.

I asked a a well known pro about its use in PCT. He said that most pros, never fully come off and dont use a real PCT. But great for a brigde.... But to the average user, its would work WELL in a PCT.....and to a drug tested athlete, its amazing.

That being said, wow, there were some monsters out there. Even the chicks were huge.

Again like you state though, those people "never really do pct", they are always on something, so they most likely are stating OPINION on how SARMS should be used. Just because they always want to run something and its super mild still doesnt mean that it SHOULD be used in PCT. Again, just another user opinion, and coming from people that admit to not ever really doing PCT neways, doesnt make me ANY more confident about the opinion lol

We are getting more and more users expressing "shut down" on more and more boards, yet the hardcore SARMS advocates seem to IGNORE it and still say "great for PCT", makes no sense to me, but whatever, not my body :D

-Legacy
 
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Again like you state though, those people "never really do pct", they are always something, so they most likely are stating OPINION on how SARMS should be used. Just because they always want to run something and its super mild still doesnt mean that it SHOULD be used in PCT. Again, just another user opinion, and coming from people that admit to not ever really doing PCT neways, doesnt make me ANY more confident about the opinion lol

We are getting more and more users expressing "shut down" on more and more boards, yet the hardcore SARMS advocates seem to IGNORE it and still say "great for PCT", makes no sense to me, but whatever, not my body :D

-Legacy

Once again, your logic is flawless.

Sarms can be successfully incorporated in to a cycle, but they can not take the place of anabolic steroids, and certainly should NOT be used during PCT.
 
Once again, your logic is flawless.

Sarms can be successfully incorporated in to a cycle, but they can not take the place of anabolic steroids, and certainly should NOT be used during PCT.


I disagree, they are great for PCT and bridging at lower doses, 50mgs is great.

There is a member here that has has his natty test come back WHILE ON SARMS!.

There will soon be blood test that prove this, mine.

I no longer want the big the big BB look, I prefer the beach body look. Thats why sarms has been great for me, hard lean muscle and NO shutdown.

Im a sarms and HGH fan for life! Or until another new sarms comes out.
 
I disagree, they are great for PCT and bridging at lower doses, 50mgs is great.

There is a member here that has has his natty test come back WHILE ON SARMS!.

There will soon be blood test that prove this, mine.

I no longer want the big the big BB look, I prefer the beach body look. Thats why sarms has been great for me, hard lean muscle and NO shutdown.

Im a sarms and HGH fan for life! Or until another new sarms comes out.

It's not a matter of OPINION, it's a matter of FACT--sarms should be avoided during PCT because they can inhibit the HPTA and prevent complete endogenous testosterone recovery.

Using a sarm or any other supplement in place of anabolic steroids is fine, especially if you don't want to be huge. Anabolic steroids are for men trying to gain significant amounts of lean muscle mass, and sarms will not do that, you are correct.
 
I disagree, they are great for PCT and bridging at lower doses, 50mgs is great.

There is a member here that has has his natty test come back WHILE ON SARMS!.

There will soon be blood test that prove this, mine.

I no longer want the big the big BB look, I prefer the beach body look. Thats why sarms has been great for me, hard lean muscle and NO shutdown.

Im a sarms and HGH fan for life! Or until another new sarms comes out.

Ive been on SARMS for about 5 weeks, I play basketball so im not going BB look either, only things ive noticed are recovery and light strength increases, its helping me burn fat and save muscle but thats about it. Your natty test levels can raise with sarms being mild but 100% in the same amount of time without it and no placebo effects form being on sarms Im not sold at all. I would never use sarms to gain muscle, save it and not be ON while trying to cut fat sure, but I havent noticed anything that would make me want to "bulk" on it. Recovery, light strength, and yellow tint is it. Also, LOTS of members are talking about shutdown on sarms but everyone that is on the sarms bandwagon are IGNORING these statements and continue to push it for PCT, I just dont get it. I dont get THAT much out of it to make me WANT to use it for any PCT, recomp I love the stuff, but Im still trying to understand this obsession for making sarms a pct drug but I guess Ill just wait for more medical testing instead of going back and forth with opinions.

-Legacy
 
Chemwiz, also you say LOW DOSE "50 mg", animal and clinical studies convert to 50mg being a high dose even for a 200lb person. So again, I guess ill just wait for human trials to be posted under CONTROLLED circumstances when no other drugs are involved.

-Legacy
 
It's not a matter of OPINION, it's a matter of FACT--sarms should be avoided during PCT because they can inhibit the HPTA and prevent complete endogenous testosterone recovery.

Using a sarm or any other supplement in place of anabolic steroids is fine, especially if you don't want to be huge. Anabolic steroids are for men trying to gain significant amounts of lean muscle mass, and sarms will not do that, you are correct.

What FACTS?

Didn't you read he will he have BW done soon.

No matter how much you bash Sarms it will never be FAD as you described it as it is being used by pro athletes already besides I heard there will be an ORD 2 coming in April or May and I am sure many will choose to use Sarms-4 instead of taking legal risks.

Oh, wait until the new Sarms comes out later this year; it will make this current S4 look obsolete so I heard, lol.
 
I'm callin FOX and ABC right now...:chomp:

I knew you were a snitch, see?

Being who you are I thought you would be calling MSNBC instead of FOX.

PS: I know of athletes who took a test prior to their MMA fight and they had been on Sarms up until the day of the test and the Sarms did not show up.
 
Chemwiz, also you say LOW DOSE "50 mg", animal and clinical studies convert to 50mg being a high dose even for a 200lb person. So again, I guess ill just wait for human trials to be posted under CONTROLLED circumstances when no other drugs are involved.

-Legacy


Fair enough, that being said, I know my body and have been shut down by normally mild compounds on the HPTA and I had none with the sarms. That is facrt.

Just read a thread on OLM where a guy had his free test checked while on sarms and there was no suppression. Even the member JA who originally hated s4 has come around on the compound it seems.

I never said it was a bulker, and Im not trying to bulk up. I have trouble getting fat on s4 no matter what I eat.

Great for any tested athlete or anyone wanting that lean look.

Great thread though:biggrin:
 
I no longer want the big the big BB look, I prefer the beach body look. Thats why sarms has been great for me, hard lean muscle and NO shutdown.

Im a sarms and HGH fan for life! Or until another new sarms comes out.

Not to mention being to able to fit in your clothes, not running out of breat, no bloat, no acne, increased blood pressure, moon face, tits, etc...

Yep, HGH and S4 is the smart way to go :doublefi:
 
I knew you were a snitch, see?

Being who you are I thought you would be calling MSNBC instead of FOX.

PS: I know of athletes who took a test prior to their MMA fight and they had been on Sarms up until the day of the test and the Sarms did not show up.


Carlito B, dont buy into Ross bullshit. He just likes to stir up drama imo.
 
Just read a thread on OLM where a guy had his free test checked while on sarms and there was no suppression. Even the member JA who originally hated s4 has come around on the compound it seems.

I know about that thread and JA had his test done probably about a year ago when someone else was selling it over there.

NOW THAT IS A FACT!

Thanks for bringing that up!

:D
 
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