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The Official PCT of 2010!

Dear Member,

I'm proud to present the official Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) of 2009.

If you're considering using pro-hormones, or even illegal anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS’s), then you should read this article before going any further.

Some information given here will be new, some will be old, but all of it is based off successful real-world protocols developed from the counseling of hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders worldwide. The information presented here will allow you to come clean from a cycle while keeping your gains, surging your sex drive, and making you feel healthier than you ever have before.

Before we get into the details I want to illustrate several major problems with the average PCT protocol -



Mega-Dosing of SERMs​

There is no doubt that SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) such as Clomid and Nolvadex can stimulate testosterone production.

Unfortunately, these drugs can have a host of side effects including -

  • Liver Toxicity
  • Reduced Libido
  • Ocular Toxicity/Blurred Vision
  • Emotional Side-effects
Clomid in particular can lead to emotional side-effects and cause a man to feel like a weeping and emotionally distressed pregnant woman. This is because Clomid acts like an estrogen in certain parts of the brain and causes serious emotional episodes. To read more about the side-effects of SERM's, read this article.

In the “Perfect PCT” section below we will discuss the proper use of SERM’s for PCT.



Over Use of Anti-Estrogens​

Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.

More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.

Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -

  • Lower Sex Drive / Erectile dysfunction
  • Joint Pain
  • Lower HDL levels
  • Increased Risk of Heart Disease
Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.



Improper use of hCG​

Using hCG after the cycle is the least effective way to use hCG.

You see, when you're on steroids, your brain cuts off the signal to the testes, and your testes stop producing testosterone. Once this happens, your testes shutdown, start to shrink, and become unresponsive to stimulation from the brain (essentially, the testes become desensitized). This is the reason why alot of guys never recover from a steroid cycle even after using tons of hCG and SERM's -- because the testes have stayed inactive for too long and have become permanently desensitized.

Here are a list of problems you can have from waiting untill the end of a cycle to use hCG -

  • High Possibility of Permanent Testicular Damage/Desensitization
  • Higher hCG Dose Requirement
  • Higher Conversion Rate to Estrogen
For a fast and quick recovery of testosterone production after a cycle, you must avoid the long-periods of suppression. Once your testes go unused for too long, it is virtually impossible to get them to come back full strength, no matter how much hCG you take. For more detailed information on testicular degeneration of testicular function during a steroid cycle, see this article.



hCG during cycle - The Proper use of hCG

For any cycle longer than 6 weeks, you need to get your hands on some hCG and use it during the cycle. A small dose will keep the testes running as normal during cycle, so they can jump back on track when the cycle is over. Plus, when you use hCG during the cycle, you don't need to use it for PCT.

On-cycle hCG forces your testes to continue producing testosterone as they normally would. The trick with on-cycle hCG use is to avoid using too much, too frequently (which can also desensitize your testes the same as not using any at all!). It’s important to use just enough to stimulate the testes to produce the same amount of testosterone they would normally.

Check out the simple hCG dosing guidelines -

hCG-Dosing-Guidelines.jpg

If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

* Every 4 days = Shoot on Monday, then on Friday, then on Tuesday, ect.

† AI - Aromatase Inhibitor (While taking 1000iu shots, I recommend 10mg/ED of Aromasin or .5mg/ED Arimidex to keep estrogen in control. Legal alternatives include Formasol and Arom-X which are also effective aromatase inhibitors. Discontinue AI 4 days after last hCG shot.)​
If you are doing the on-cycle hCG protocol it is important to discontinue hCG 2 weeks prior to AAS clearance. Therefore, when you officially start PCT you will be clean of all AAS's and will be 14 days from your last hCG shot. This allows your testes to become re-sensitized to the body's LH signal from the brain, making for a quick recovery of natural testosterone production as soon as the steroids and hCG clear the system. This is another reason why on-cycle hCG is superior, because it allows you to start recovering as soon as PCT begins.

If you aren't doing hCG on-cycle, then use hCG according to the "last 2 weeks or after the cycle" guidelines, and start it 4-5 weeks before the AAS's are expected to clear the system (Or as soon as possible if you are already past this point).

For AAS clearance times, see the table in the last section.



The Perfect PCT

Since SERMs can help stimulate testosterone production, we will allow them in our PCT, but at a much lower dose that what most “forum gurus” suggest. The goal with SERM’s is to dose them for maximum benefit with minimal side-effects, and only use them when they are necessary. If your cycle is longer than 6 weeks, and you are not running hCG during the cycle, then I recommend a SERM during PCT in combination with the Testosterone Recovery Stack (TRS) -- A completely legal, natural, tried & true PCT stack. (about to be discussed)

I recommend the following SERM’s, in order of most to least desirable –

Toremifene – 40mg/day
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) – 10mg/day
Clomid (Clomiphene) – 25mg/day​

As I mentioned above, hCG should be used for any cycle longer than 6 weeks. If you follow the proper hCG protocol, then it will be much easier to recover for PCT, and the TRS alone will be sufficient for recovery. However, if hCG was not used, then you will likely benefit from stacking one of the above listed SERM’s with the TRS. (since you will need all the help you can get)

The TRS has proven to be so safe & effective, that guys are shunning Clomid and Nolvadex every chance they get and using the TRS alone for PCT. Hundreds of testimonials and dozens of blood tests from real life customers have proven the Testosterone Recovery Stack to be just as effective as a SERM for PCT, but without the side effects. For those that may want additional support for PCT, the TRS stacks synergistically with low responsible doses of SERMs. (Just checkout the PCT Stacking Guideline table below)

So what exactly is the TRS?


If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

The main product in the TRS is the legendary Sustain Alpha -- a natural testosterone boosting topical cream.

It's no surprise that Sustain Alpha is the foundation of the TRS. It’s powerful active ingredients are pulled through the skin and straight to the blood stream with our advanced topical delivery formula. Once in the blood, they are carried to the brain – right where they start triggering the testes to produce testosterone like a fountain of youth.

Speaking of the triggering testosterone production; How does Sustain Alpha work?

The main ingredients in Sustain Alpha – resveratrol and 7,8-benzoflavone – are natural anti-estrogens. However, both of these compounds have proven to be more like estrogen balancers as blood tests have revealed that Sustain Alpha can raise estrogen if it is too low or lower estrogen if it is too high – therefore offering the ideal solution for virtually any individual.

You see, a little estrogen is a good thing. Too low of estrogen can reduce libido, inhibit recovery, and hurt heart health by raising bad cholesterol. (a typical side-effect of using pharmaceuticals like Arimidex or Aromasin which can overly suppress estrogen levels as I mentioned earlier)

So the question is…

If Sustain Alpha isn't significantly inhibiting estrogen, then how exactly is it significantly increasing LH, FSH and natural testosterone levels?

Before jumping into the science let me give you a brief background on hormone production -



Basic Hormone Production
The Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA)


In a normal healthy male luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are sent from the brain (the pituitary) to stimulate the testes to make testosterone and sperm.

The release of LH & FSH from the pituitary is stimulated by Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is stimulated to produce GnRH when it senses low levels of testosterone and estrogen. (hypothalamus [GnRH] --- > pituitary [LH & FSH]--- > testes [testosterone])

HPTAstimulation.jpg
If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

On the other hand, when the brain detects high levels of testosterone and estrogen it suppresses the release of GnRH, LH & FSH, and eventually testosterone production. This is called the negative feedback loop – the normal daily rhythm of hormone production.

Traditionally, boosting LH & FSH to stimulate testosterone involved the use of a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) to directly block estrogen at the receptor (eg, Clomid & Nolvadex) or inhibition of estrogen formation by blocking the aromatase enzyme with aromatase inhibitors (eg, ATD, 6-bromo, formestane, Aromasin, Letrozol, ect).



Now on to the science on what makes Sustain Alpha so unique...

Recently, it has been found that the main ingredient in Sustain Alpha – the naturally occurring flavone 7,8-Benzoflavone -- increases testosterone production by preventing the negative feedback of testosterone and estrogen on the hypothalamus through GABAergic modulation.

That's right, GABAergic modulation, but please let me explain before jumping out of your seat.

As you may know, γ-amino-butyric acid (GABA) is an inhibitory neurotransmitter known to play an important role in sleep, learning, memory and pain sensation. In fact, GABA supplements are often used to promote relaxation and sleep. However, the GABAergic system is a tremendously complex family of receptors which interact not only with GABA, but hundreds of other neuro-active chemicals all throughout the body.

The important thing to understand here is that GABA and GABAergic transmission are two separate things.

With that in mind, researchers are just beginning to understand how the GABAergic system regulates the hypothalamus and GnRH secretion.

So far, it's been established that there is no androgen receptor (AR) or estrogen receptor (ER) on GnRH releasing neurons. This is fascinating, because it means that steroid hormones such as testosterone and estrogen must communicate with GnRH neurons through intermediaries. Meaning, steroid hormones must signal the release of certain neurotransmitters to suppress GnRH secretion in the hypothalamus. One of the neurotransmitter systems involved in this communication process is the GABAergic system.


If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

As you can imagine, if the neurotransmitters can be blocked or antagonized, then suppression from steroid hormones can be reduced or possibly eliminated. By blocking the suppression, this allows the hypothalamus to continue secreting GnRH, thus allowing the testes to continue pumping out testosterone like they never missed a beat!

7,8-benzoflavone is a neuro-active flavone that reaches the hypothalamus and binds to the GABAergic receptors that modulate GnRH release. In fact, animal studies have already shown 7,8-benzoflavone can prevent the drug related decline in LH, FSH and testosterone production. By interacting with the GABAergic receptors, 7,8-benzoflavone is able to offset hypothalamic suppression of GnRH from steroid hormones.

We realized the incredible potential of this flavone, and recently increased the concentration of 7,8-benzoflavone by 15% in the newest 5.0 formula. Now, Sustain Alpha is more potent than ever.

So what does this mean for a guy wanting to boost testosterone?

This means LH & FSH levels can be boosted quickly and effectively without overly suppressing estrogen and sacrificing overall health. This means Sustain Alpha is perfect for any PCT, or any male wishing to optimize his "male performance" with higher testosterone levels. This also means that Sustain Alpha is unlike anything else on the market.

Yet, there is one factor that will keep you from getting maximum gains from Sustain Alpha, and that is testicular sensitivity.

Let me explain…

No matter how much LH & FSH the brain secretes, the testes won't secrete testosterone if they are desensitized to LH & FSH. (remember, this can happen from too much, or not enough LH & FSH stimulation)

Therefore, maintaining testicular sensitivity is critical, and this is precisely what Toco-8 was designed for.



Toco-8 is a powdered tocotrienol supplement proven to increase testicular sensitivity. When taken with Sustain Alpha, a powerful synergy occurs. By increasing testicular sensitivity, Toco-8 makes Sustain Alpha 3-4x more effective, thus allowing the body to produce more testosterone than it ever could before. Research has also proven that Toco-8 can increase the effectiveness of hCG by the same mechanism. Consider Toco-8 the beginning of a great testicular awakening – critical for a strong testosterone response to LH & FSH stimulation.

The final piece of the TRS is cortisol control.

Cortisol is a nasty stress hormone that can breakdown muscle tissue and reduce the ability of the body to produce testosterone. This is especially bad during PCT when getting testosterone levels up as quickly as possible is the #1 goal.

For reducing the damaging effects of cortisol we created EndoAmp.


If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

Each serving of EndoAmp gains a scientifically proven 800mg dose of phosphatidylserine (PS). This is the exact same dose used in human clinical trials to suppress cortisol, raise testosterone and prevent muscle breakdown. PS is a very important naturally occurring phospholipid which helps reduce stress related catabolism and cortisol release.


Recap

Take hCG during the cycle if your cycle is over 6 weeks (follow the guidelines above for hCG dosing).

For PCT, use the TRS, which includes the testosterone surging Sustain Alpha, the testicular sensitizer Toco-8, and the cortisol blocker EndoAmp. Stack this with a low dose SERM if desired (see stacking guidelines below).

To make things easy just follow the below table for when to discontinue AAS’s prior to PCT -

AAS-Clearance-Times.jpg
If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

Then follow this table for PCT -

PCT-stacking-guidelines.jpg
If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

* Toremifene is the #1 perferred SERM, followed by Nolvadex, followed by Clomid.

Notes:

Apply Sustain Alpha anytime of the day, after a shower. Use 5 days on, 2 days off.
Take Toco-8 anytime during the day with or without food.
Take 2 scoops of EndoAmp after workouts or in the morning on non-workout days.

Make no mistake, the TRS is one of the most powerful testosterone simulating stacks on the market, but don’t take my word for it. Jump on Google or any major bodybuilding forum and put in a search for the above products -- you will see they are the real deal, backed by thousands of positive reviews from actual users.

I’d like to thank you for reading the Official PCT for 2009 and supporting Primordial Performance!

Yours in health & fitness,

Eric Potratz
Primordial Founder & President

Questions?

Phone – 1-800-568-2924
Email - [email protected]
Visit - Primordial Performance
 
will def be pming you with some questions regarding these pct products and some discounts.. will need something run after my beastdrol cycle!!!! :)
 
That is an amazing post. Back in the day, I never used any pct. I had taken a few years off and then started casually again, one cycle just for summer and still never used any pct. After finding EF a year ago, I have taken two cycles and used your TRS after both along with Post Cycle Support and on cycle hcg. My recovery has been nothing short of amazing with these products. I am holding much more of my gains now when I used to lose everything. I will be continuing to use them after each cycle from here forward. Congrats PP for the innovation!!
 
I'm ordering your TRS. I'm also interested in Dermacrine for use on-cycle for a Primo/Test run. Mainly because of the sense of well-being everybody raves about.

I see 7,8-benzoflavone in both. What is this and where does it come from? I can't find any detailed info on this substance. Are there studies? Thanks.
 
I'm ordering your TRS. I'm also interested in Dermacrine for use on-cycle for a Primo/Test run. Mainly because of the sense of well-being everybody raves about.

I see 7,8-benzoflavone in both. What is this and where does it come from? I can't find any detailed info on this substance. Are there studies? Thanks.

The 7,8-benzoflavone comes from passionflower, which has been used as an aphrodisiac for thousands of years.

There really isnt any peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled human studies examining pure 7,8-benzoflavone. But there is research with passionflower (passiflora incarnta) used in humans for increasing libido, and it’s been postulated that most of this aphrodisiac effect is from the 7,8-benzoflavone content.

Some of these reffs are not directly related to 7,8-benzoflavone, but are tied together with the nuero-active GABA agonistic/antagonistic activity that is likely the mechanism behind the testosterone and sex drive boosting effects.

-Eric

Die Bedeutung der Passionsblume in der Heilkunde.
Lutomski J et al.
Pharmazie in unserer Zeit 1981;10:45-49.

Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel trisubstituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective
KAMALDEEP DHAWAN et al.
Addiction Biology (December 2003) 8, 379 - 386

Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

Neuroactive flavonoids interacting with GABAA receptor complex.
F Wang, M Shing, Y Huen, SY Tsang, and H Xue
Curr Drug Targets CNS Neurol Disord, Oct 2005; 4(5): 575-85.

Passiflora: a review update.
Dhawan K, Dhawan S, Sharma A.
J Ethnopharmacol. 2004 Sep;94(1):1-23. Review.

A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on gonadotropin-releasing hormone and luteinizing hormone secretion in the male sheep.
Endocrinology. 2000 Nov;141(11):3940-5.

Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. – a brief perspective.
Dhawan, et al.
Addiction Biology 379-386

Anticonvulsant effects of aerial parts of Passiflora incarnata extract in mice: involvement of benzodiazepine and opioid receptors.
Nassiri-Asl M, Shariati-Rad S, Zamansoltani F.
BMC Complement Altern Med. 2007 Aug 8;7:26.

Effects of Dialyzing γ-Aminobutyric Acid Receptor Antagonists into the Medial Preoptic and Arcuate Ventromedial Region on Lutienizing Hormone Release in Male Sheep.
Suzie A, et al.
Biology of Reproduction 58, 1038-1046 (1998)

Antiandrogen Microimplants into the Rostal Medial Preoptic Are Decrease γ-Aminobutyric Acidergic Neuronal Activity and Increase Luteinizing Hormone Secretion in the Intact Male Rat.
David R et al.
Endocrinology, Vol. 137 No. 10 (1996)

Non-classical estrogen modulation of presynaptic GABA terminals modulates calcium dynamics in gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) neurons.
Nicola Romano, et al.
Endocrinology, 10.1210/en.2008-0424 (2008)

Restoration of the Luteinizing Hormone Surge in Middle-Aged Female Rats by Altering the Balance of GABA and Glutamate Transmission in the Medial Preoptic Area
Genevieve S, et al.
Biol Reprod, Jul 2008; 10.1095/biolreprod.108.069831.
 
The 7,8-benzoflavone comes from passionflower, which has been used as an aphrodisiac for thousands of years.

There really isnt any peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled human studies examining pure 7,8-benzoflavone. But there is research with passionflower (passiflora incarnta) used in humans for increasing libido, and it’s been postulated that most of this aphrodisiac effect is from the 7,8-benzoflavone content.

Some of these reffs are not directly related to 7,8-benzoflavone, but are tied together with the nuero-active GABA agonistic/antagonistic activity that is likely the mechanism behind the testosterone and sex drive boosting effects.

-Eric

Thank you Eric. I got some reading to do. I've studied GABA pretty intensely in the past, but it was related to substance abuse and the effect of alcohol and drugs on the neurotransmitters GABA and Glutamate, chloride ion, channels and a-b receptor sites, etc. This will be an interesting read. Thanks again.
 
Great article. Always thought it should be a week to wait for Test P to clear before PCT though...
 
Ok, I looked these studies over and I'm confused as to what they are saying the exact mechanism may be. It looks as if they are saying that increasing the Glutamate to GABA ratio is what increases the LH/Testosterone production. But, this doesn't make any sense from a standpoint of Dermacrine making one "feel better" which is what is reported. Glutamate is an exitatory neurotransmitter which increases feelings of anxiety, nervousness, etc. It doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. Does Dermacrine increase or decrease this ratio? There are anti-siezure studies for Passion Flower as well, which would indicate a decrease in Glutamate. I'm confused.

This is complicated by the fact that there are more than one type of GABA receptor. There are pharmacueticals, Gabapentin and Campral, that affect the Glutamate/GABA ratio in favor of higher GABA. These have a calming effect. I wonder if there may be an anabolic effect as well?

The 7,8-benzoflavone comes from passionflower, which has been used as an aphrodisiac for thousands of years.

There really isnt any peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled human studies examining pure 7,8-benzoflavone. But there is research with passionflower (passiflora incarnta) used in humans for increasing libido, and it’s been postulated that most of this aphrodisiac effect is from the 7,8-benzoflavone content.

Some of these reffs are not directly related to 7,8-benzoflavone, but are tied together with the nuero-active GABA agonistic/antagonistic activity that is likely the mechanism behind the testosterone and sex drive boosting effects.

-Eric

Die Bedeutung der Passionsblume in der Heilkunde.
Lutomski J et al.
Pharmazie in unserer Zeit 1981;10:45-49.

Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel trisubstituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. - a brief perspective
KAMALDEEP DHAWAN et al.
Addiction Biology (December 2003) 8, 379 - 386

Prevention of chronic alcohol and nicotine-induced azospermia, sterility and decreased libido, by a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety from Passiflora incarnata Linneaus in healthy male rats.
K Dhawan and et al.
Life Sci, Nov 2002; 71(26): 3059-69.

Neuroactive flavonoids interacting with GABAA receptor complex.
F Wang, M Shing, Y Huen, SY Tsang, and H Xue
Curr Drug Targets CNS Neurol Disord, Oct 2005; 4(5): 575-85.

Passiflora: a review update.
Dhawan K, Dhawan S, Sharma A.
J Ethnopharmacol. 2004 Sep;94(1):1-23. Review.

A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on gonadotropin-releasing hormone and luteinizing hormone secretion in the male sheep.
Endocrinology. 2000 Nov;141(11):3940-5.

Drug/substance reversal effects of a novel tri-substituted benzoflavone moiety (BZF) isolated from Passiflora incarnata Linn. – a brief perspective.
Dhawan, et al.
Addiction Biology 379-386

Anticonvulsant effects of aerial parts of Passiflora incarnata extract in mice: involvement of benzodiazepine and opioid receptors.
Nassiri-Asl M, Shariati-Rad S, Zamansoltani F.
BMC Complement Altern Med. 2007 Aug 8;7:26.

Effects of Dialyzing γ-Aminobutyric Acid Receptor Antagonists into the Medial Preoptic and Arcuate Ventromedial Region on Lutienizing Hormone Release in Male Sheep.
Suzie A, et al.
Biology of Reproduction 58, 1038-1046 (1998)

Antiandrogen Microimplants into the Rostal Medial Preoptic Are Decrease γ-Aminobutyric Acidergic Neuronal Activity and Increase Luteinizing Hormone Secretion in the Intact Male Rat.
David R et al.
Endocrinology, Vol. 137 No. 10 (1996)

Non-classical estrogen modulation of presynaptic GABA terminals modulates calcium dynamics in gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) neurons.
Nicola Romano, et al.
Endocrinology, 10.1210/en.2008-0424 (2008)

Restoration of the Luteinizing Hormone Surge in Middle-Aged Female Rats by Altering the Balance of GABA and Glutamate Transmission in the Medial Preoptic Area
Genevieve S, et al.
Biol Reprod, Jul 2008; 10.1095/biolreprod.108.069831.
 
Ok, I looked these studies over and I'm confused as to what they are saying the exact mechanism may be. It looks as if they are saying that increasing the Glutamate to GABA ratio is what increases the LH/Testosterone production. But, this doesn't make any sense from a standpoint of Dermacrine making one "feel better" which is what is reported. Glutamate is an exitatory neurotransmitter which increases feelings of anxiety, nervousness, etc. It doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint. Does Dermacrine increase or decrease this ratio? There are anti-siezure studies for Passion Flower as well, which would indicate a decrease in Glutamate. I'm confused.

This is complicated by the fact that there are more than one type of GABA receptor. There are pharmacueticals, Gabapentin and Campral, that affect the Glutamate/GABA ratio in favor of higher GABA. These have a calming effect. I wonder if there may be an anabolic effect as well?

Those reffs are related to 7,8 benzoflavone with reffs on GABA control over LH, FSH and testosterone production. The Dermacrine makes people feel good because of the DHEA and pregnenolone and not so much the 7,8 benzoflavone.

The benzo helps increase GnRH release from the hypothalamus probably via an agonistic action on GABA-b. Just remember, there is a lot going on with GABA receptors -- alpha, beta, gamma, delta receptors – pre and post synaptic interactions – receptor ligands, ect

BTW, 7,8 benzoflavone actually has anti-anxiety effects, but no drowsiness. (possibly effects on the opioid or endorphin receptor too)

-Eric
 
Doesn't DHEA convert to estrogen more so than testosterone? I remember buying a bottle not too long ago and as usual did a little more research and found that. Threw that one in the garbage!
 
FWIW I will say that PP has never smacked of bullshit marketing hype, and I cannot say that of some other past EF sponsors that evaded more questions than they answered. I'm pretty sure I was the first woman to ever try Dermacrine and the stuff won me over.
 
Those reffs are related to 7,8 benzoflavone with reffs on GABA control over LH, FSH and testosterone production. The Dermacrine makes people feel good because of the DHEA and pregnenolone and not so much the 7,8 benzoflavone.

The benzo helps increase GnRH release from the hypothalamus probably via an agonistic action on GABA-b. Just remember, there is a lot going on with GABA receptors -- alpha, beta, gamma, delta receptors – pre and post synaptic interactions – receptor ligands, ect

BTW, 7,8 benzoflavone actually has anti-anxiety effects, but no drowsiness. (possibly effects on the opioid or endorphin receptor too)

-Eric

Thanks Eric. It is not my intent for my questions to come off as skepticism, so I hope they did not. I like that you always take the time to answer technical questions intelligently and backed up by research. My questions are mainly prompted by obsessive curiosity.:evil::evil::evil:

This is interesting stuff. I'm still confused regarding the one reference where it says that Glutamate was responsible more for the increase in LH. But, that confusion stems more from the impression I had that the 7,8-Benzoflavone was the key ingredient responsible for the "feel good" effects of Dermacrine.
 
Doesn't DHEA convert to estrogen more so than testosterone? I remember buying a bottle not too long ago and as usual did a little more research and found that. Threw that one in the garbage!

Not really.

It may convert more readily to E1 from Adione, but that is a weaker estrogen that E2, so it’s basically a wash.

-Eric
 
Great Thread!



!
 
Doesn't DHEA convert to estrogen more so than testosterone? I remember buying a bottle not too long ago and as usual did a little more research and found that. Threw that one in the garbage!

Based on my experience, no way. Estrogen I got plenty of, Test not so much. The rate of my strength gains close to doubled on Dermacrine, so clearly either DHT, T, or both went up dramatically, not E.
 
Great thread!
 
Ill def be using a PP product soon! would 1-T Tren go well with dermacrine and beastdrol for a nice little month
 
Ill def be using a PP product soon! would 1-T Tren go well with dermacrine and beastdrol for a nice little month

Yeah, you have to be careful when stacking stuff with 1-T TREN. We designed it to be a complete stack on its own. 1-T TREN already has DHEA at a percise dose, so when you take Dermacrine, you will probably get more DHEA than you want.

-Eric
 
hey eric........im gonna have a newborn on about june 4th and i will be smack dab in the middle of TRS......so i was wondering about the possability of the sustain alpha being a danger in the event of contacting a babys skin via my holding it??
 
hey eric........im gonna have a newborn on about june 4th and i will be smack dab in the middle of TRS......so i was wondering about the possability of the sustain alpha being a danger in the event of contacting a babys skin via my holding it??

a newborn's skin is much thinner than an adult's, which I know is one of the important factors in how well a transdermal product is absorbed, so I'd think even a little transference would be a bad idea.
 
good to know thanks! i'll just cut my cycle short 2 weeks so i can get though PCT before due date (error on the side of caution)
 
good writeup.
needto i'm going straight to traz and you when i do a first cycle and need pct.
 
great read on PP's TRS. I will start a bestdrol cycle after I can afford the TRS. Will the TRS and LIV2 be enough for a 4 week cycle?
 
You really think it is necessary to add Unleashed and post cycle? You know this by experiencce?

No I wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary but from a couple reports I've seen on here is that the beast can shut you down pretty hard and it can be hell on your liver. I'm just saying they definately wouldn't hurt.....when it comes to pct I usually do more "safely" than probably needed cause I'd rather be safe than sorry.
 
Yes, I think the TRS would be enough, along with some basic milk thistle.

BTW guys, the coupon MAXRECOVERY will save you $30 on the Testosterone Recovery Stack right now!

Natural Testosterone Recovery - LH Booster, Cortisol Controler & Testicular Sensitizer

-Eric

Eric, do you think there are enough studies done on milk thistle alone to cure a stressed liver? I haven't found too many articles though I still take it because there is some evidence supporting it. I'd add in some Liv52 as well....
 
i started the TRS on the 30th of april......really hope'n the LITTLE guys will bounce....back their startin to worry me lol
 
Eric, do you think there are enough studies done on milk thistle alone to cure a stressed liver? I haven't found too many articles though I still take it because there is some evidence supporting it. I'd add in some Liv52 as well....

There is alot of research supporting milk thistle.

Check this out -

An updated systematic review of the pharmacology of silymarin.
R Saller, J Melzer, J Reichling, R Brignoli, and R Meier
Forsch Komplementmed, Apr 2007; 14(2): 70-80.


-Eric
 
Okay guys this may be off topic but relates to the thread begun in the first place...

I'm on a long ( long for me anyhow ) 16 week cycle and into my 6th week so far and decided to follow Eric's advice on doing every 3rd day shots of hcg while on cycle to minimize testicular atrophy and must say that i've been very successful so far.

I do mon / fri injects of test e & eq and take 300ius of hcg sub q on the same days. The boys look okay. Heavy and kicking lol.

Thankyou Eric !! :rainbow:
 
Okay guys this may be off topic but relates to the thread begun in the first place...

I'm on a long ( long for me anyhow ) 16 week cycle and into my 6th week so far and decided to follow Eric's advice on doing every 3rd day shots of hcg while on cycle to minimize testicular atrophy and must say that i've been very successful so far.

I do mon / fri injects of test e & eq and take 300ius of hcg sub q on the same days. The boys look okay. Heavy and kicking lol.

Thankyou Eric !! :rainbow:

Your welcome ;)

Dont miss out on the $30 off sale going until the 25th of this month guys.

MAXRECOVERY will save you $30 on the TRS -

Natural Testosterone Recovery - LH Booster, Cortisol Controler & Testicular Sensitizer

-Eric
 
The 7,8-benzoflavone comes from passionflower, which has been used as an aphrodisiac for thousands of years.

There really isnt any peer-reviewed, placebo-controlled human studies examining pure 7,8-benzoflavone. But there is research with...

[snip]

The word "research" seems to be linked to the "ag-guys" website. Why? That is totally irrelevant and detracts from the explanation you are trying to make.
 
I was on a long cycle for 16 weeks of test/eq and tren for the last 10 weeks. Should i run your recovery stack for longer than the four weeks or do you think that will be long enough?
 
can i use sustain alpha along sode my clomid after my hcg?
Dear Member,

I'm proud to present the official Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) of 2009.

If you're considering using pro-hormones, or even illegal anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS’s), then you should read this article before going any further.

Some information given here will be new, some will be old, but all of it is based off successful real-world protocols developed from the counseling of hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders worldwide. The information presented here will allow you to come clean from a cycle while keeping your gains, surging your sex drive, and making you feel healthier than you ever have before.

Before we get into the details I want to illustrate several major problems with the average PCT protocol -



Mega-Dosing of SERMs​

There is no doubt that SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) such as Clomid and Nolvadex can stimulate testosterone production.

Unfortunately, these drugs can have a host of side effects including -

  • Liver Toxicity
  • Reduced Libido
  • Ocular Toxicity/Blurred Vision
  • Emotional Side-effects
Clomid in particular can lead to emotional side-effects and cause a man to feel like a weeping and emotionally distressed pregnant woman. This is because Clomid acts like an estrogen in certain parts of the brain and causes serious emotional episodes. To read more about the side-effects of SERM's, read this article.

In the “Perfect PCT” section below we will discuss the proper use of SERM’s for PCT.



Over Use of Anti-Estrogens​

Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.

More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.

Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -

  • Lower Sex Drive / Erectile dysfunction
  • Joint Pain
  • Lower HDL levels
  • Increased Risk of Heart Disease
Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.



Improper use of hCG​

Using hCG after the cycle is the least effective way to use hCG.

You see, when you're on steroids, your brain cuts off the signal to the testes, and your testes stop producing testosterone. Once this happens, your testes shutdown, start to shrink, and become unresponsive to stimulation from the brain (essentially, the testes become desensitized). This is the reason why alot of guys never recover from a steroid cycle even after using tons of hCG and SERM's -- because the testes have stayed inactive for too long and have become permanently desensitized.

Here are a list of problems you can have from waiting untill the end of a cycle to use hCG -

  • High Possibility of Permanent Testicular Damage/Desensitization
  • Higher hCG Dose Requirement
  • Higher Conversion Rate to Estrogen
For a fast and quick recovery of testosterone production after a cycle, you must avoid the long-periods of suppression. Once your testes go unused for too long, it is virtually impossible to get them to come back full strength, no matter how much hCG you take. For more detailed information on testicular degeneration of testicular function during a steroid cycle, see this article.



hCG during cycle - The Proper use of hCG

For any cycle longer than 6 weeks, you need to get your hands on some hCG and use it during the cycle. A small dose will keep the testes running as normal during cycle, so they can jump back on track when the cycle is over. Plus, when you use hCG during the cycle, you don't need to use it for PCT.

On-cycle hCG forces your testes to continue producing testosterone as they normally would. The trick with on-cycle hCG use is to avoid using too much, too frequently (which can also desensitize your testes the same as not using any at all!). It’s important to use just enough to stimulate the testes to produce the same amount of testosterone they would normally.

Check out the simple hCG dosing guidelines -

hCG-Dosing-Guidelines.jpg

If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

* Every 4 days = Shoot on Monday, then on Friday, then on Tuesday, ect.

† AI - Aromatase Inhibitor (While taking 1000iu shots, I recommend 10mg/ED of Aromasin or .5mg/ED Arimidex to keep estrogen in control. Legal alternatives include Formasol and Arom-X which are also effective aromatase inhibitors. Discontinue AI 4 days after last hCG shot.)​
If you are doing the on-cycle hCG protocol it is important to discontinue hCG 2 weeks prior to AAS clearance. Therefore, when you officially start PCT you will be clean of all AAS's and will be 14 days from your last hCG shot. This allows your testes to become re-sensitized to the body's LH signal from the brain, making for a quick recovery of natural testosterone production as soon as the steroids and hCG clear the system. This is another reason why on-cycle hCG is superior, because it allows you to start recovering as soon as PCT begins.

If you aren't doing hCG on-cycle, then use hCG according to the "last 2 weeks or after the cycle" guidelines, and start it 4-5 weeks before the AAS's are expected to clear the system (Or as soon as possible if you are already past this point).

For AAS clearance times, see the table in the last section.



The Perfect PCT

Since SERMs can help stimulate testosterone production, we will allow them in our PCT, but at a much lower dose that what most “forum gurus” suggest. The goal with SERM’s is to dose them for maximum benefit with minimal side-effects, and only use them when they are necessary. If your cycle is longer than 6 weeks, and you are not running hCG during the cycle, then I recommend a SERM during PCT in combination with the Testosterone Recovery Stack (TRS) -- A completely legal, natural, tried & true PCT stack. (about to be discussed)

I recommend the following SERM’s, in order of most to least desirable –

Toremifene – 40mg/day
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) – 10mg/day
Clomid (Clomiphene) – 25mg/day​

As I mentioned above, hCG should be used for any cycle longer than 6 weeks. If you follow the proper hCG protocol, then it will be much easier to recover for PCT, and the TRS alone will be sufficient for recovery. However, if hCG was not used, then you will likely benefit from stacking one of the above listed SERM’s with the TRS. (since you will need all the help you can get)

The TRS has proven to be so safe & effective, that guys are shunning Clomid and Nolvadex every chance they get and using the TRS alone for PCT. Hundreds of testimonials and dozens of blood tests from real life customers have proven the Testosterone Recovery Stack to be just as effective as a SERM for PCT, but without the side effects. For those that may want additional support for PCT, the TRS stacks synergistically with low responsible doses of SERMs. (Just checkout the PCT Stacking Guideline table below)

So what exactly is the TRS?


If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

The main product in the TRS is the legendary Sustain Alpha -- a natural testosterone boosting topical cream.

It's no surprise that Sustain Alpha is the foundation of the TRS. It’s powerful active ingredients are pulled through the skin and straight to the blood stream with our advanced topical delivery formula. Once in the blood, they are carried to the brain – right where they start triggering the testes to produce testosterone like a fountain of youth.

Speaking of the triggering testosterone production; How does Sustain Alpha work?

The main ingredients in Sustain Alpha – resveratrol and 7,8-benzoflavone – are natural anti-estrogens. However, both of these compounds have proven to be more like estrogen balancers as blood tests have revealed that Sustain Alpha can raise estrogen if it is too low or lower estrogen if it is too high – therefore offering the ideal solution for virtually any individual.

You see, a little estrogen is a good thing. Too low of estrogen can reduce libido, inhibit recovery, and hurt heart health by raising bad cholesterol. (a typical side-effect of using pharmaceuticals like Arimidex or Aromasin which can overly suppress estrogen levels as I mentioned earlier)

So the question is…

If Sustain Alpha isn't significantly inhibiting estrogen, then how exactly is it significantly increasing LH, FSH and natural testosterone levels?

Before jumping into the science let me give you a brief background on hormone production -



Basic Hormone Production
The Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA)


In a normal healthy male luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) are sent from the brain (the pituitary) to stimulate the testes to make testosterone and sperm.

The release of LH & FSH from the pituitary is stimulated by Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. The hypothalamus is stimulated to produce GnRH when it senses low levels of testosterone and estrogen. (hypothalamus [GnRH] --- > pituitary [LH & FSH]--- > testes [testosterone])

HPTAstimulation.jpg
If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

On the other hand, when the brain detects high levels of testosterone and estrogen it suppresses the release of GnRH, LH & FSH, and eventually testosterone production. This is called the negative feedback loop – the normal daily rhythm of hormone production.

Traditionally, boosting LH & FSH to stimulate testosterone involved the use of a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) to directly block estrogen at the receptor (eg, Clomid & Nolvadex) or inhibition of estrogen formation by blocking the aromatase enzyme with aromatase inhibitors (eg, ATD, 6-bromo, formestane, Aromasin, Letrozol, ect).



Now on to the science on what makes Sustain Alpha so unique...

Recently, it has been found that the main ingredient in Sustain Alpha – the naturally occurring flavone 7,8-Benzoflavone -- increases testosterone production by preventing the negative feedback of testosterone and estrogen on the hypothalamus through GABAergic modulation.

That's right, GABAergic modulation, but please let me explain before jumping out of your seat.

As you may know, γ-amino-butyric acid (GABA) is an inhibitory neurotransmitter known to play an important role in sleep, learning, memory and pain sensation. In fact, GABA supplements are often used to promote relaxation and sleep. However, the GABAergic system is a tremendously complex family of receptors which interact not only with GABA, but hundreds of other neuro-active chemicals all throughout the body.

The important thing to understand here is that GABA and GABAergic transmission are two separate things.

With that in mind, researchers are just beginning to understand how the GABAergic system regulates the hypothalamus and GnRH secretion.

So far, it's been established that there is no androgen receptor (AR) or estrogen receptor (ER) on GnRH releasing neurons. This is fascinating, because it means that steroid hormones such as testosterone and estrogen must communicate with GnRH neurons through intermediaries. Meaning, steroid hormones must signal the release of certain neurotransmitters to suppress GnRH secretion in the hypothalamus. One of the neurotransmitter systems involved in this communication process is the GABAergic system.


If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

As you can imagine, if the neurotransmitters can be blocked or antagonized, then suppression from steroid hormones can be reduced or possibly eliminated. By blocking the suppression, this allows the hypothalamus to continue secreting GnRH, thus allowing the testes to continue pumping out testosterone like they never missed a beat!

7,8-benzoflavone is a neuro-active flavone that reaches the hypothalamus and binds to the GABAergic receptors that modulate GnRH release. In fact, animal studies have already shown 7,8-benzoflavone can prevent the drug related decline in LH, FSH and testosterone production. By interacting with the GABAergic receptors, 7,8-benzoflavone is able to offset hypothalamic suppression of GnRH from steroid hormones.

We realized the incredible potential of this flavone, and recently increased the concentration of 7,8-benzoflavone by 15% in the newest 5.0 formula. Now, Sustain Alpha is more potent than ever.

So what does this mean for a guy wanting to boost testosterone?

This means LH & FSH levels can be boosted quickly and effectively without overly suppressing estrogen and sacrificing overall health. This means Sustain Alpha is perfect for any PCT, or any male wishing to optimize his "male performance" with higher testosterone levels. This also means that Sustain Alpha is unlike anything else on the market.

Yet, there is one factor that will keep you from getting maximum gains from Sustain Alpha, and that is testicular sensitivity.

Let me explain…

No matter how much LH & FSH the brain secretes, the testes won't secrete testosterone if they are desensitized to LH & FSH. (remember, this can happen from too much, or not enough LH & FSH stimulation)

Therefore, maintaining testicular sensitivity is critical, and this is precisely what Toco-8 was designed for.



Toco-8 is a powdered tocotrienol supplement proven to increase testicular sensitivity. When taken with Sustain Alpha, a powerful synergy occurs. By increasing testicular sensitivity, Toco-8 makes Sustain Alpha 3-4x more effective, thus allowing the body to produce more testosterone than it ever could before. Research has also proven that Toco-8 can increase the effectiveness of hCG by the same mechanism. Consider Toco-8 the beginning of a great testicular awakening – critical for a strong testosterone response to LH & FSH stimulation.

The final piece of the TRS is cortisol control.

Cortisol is a nasty stress hormone that can breakdown muscle tissue and reduce the ability of the body to produce testosterone. This is especially bad during PCT when getting testosterone levels up as quickly as possible is the #1 goal.

For reducing the damaging effects of cortisol we created EndoAmp.


If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

Each serving of EndoAmp gains a scientifically proven 800mg dose of phosphatidylserine (PS). This is the exact same dose used in human clinical trials to suppress cortisol, raise testosterone and prevent muscle breakdown. PS is a very important naturally occurring phospholipid which helps reduce stress related catabolism and cortisol release.


Recap

Take hCG during the cycle if your cycle is over 6 weeks (follow the guidelines above for hCG dosing).

For PCT, use the TRS, which includes the testosterone surging Sustain Alpha, the testicular sensitizer Toco-8, and the cortisol blocker EndoAmp. Stack this with a low dose SERM if desired (see stacking guidelines below).

To make things easy just follow the below table for when to discontinue AAS’s prior to PCT -

AAS-Clearance-Times.jpg
If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

Then follow this table for PCT -

PCT-stacking-guidelines.jpg
If you can’t see an image, view the thread here.

* Toremifene is the #1 perferred SERM, followed by Nolvadex, followed by Clomid.

Notes:

Apply Sustain Alpha anytime of the day, after a shower. Use 5 days on, 2 days off.
Take Toco-8 anytime during the day with or without food.
Take 2 scoops of EndoAmp after workouts or in the morning on non-workout days.

Make no mistake, the TRS is one of the most powerful testosterone simulating stacks on the market, but don’t take my word for it. Jump on Google or any major bodybuilding forum and put in a search for the above products -- you will see they are the real deal, backed by thousands of positive reviews from actual users.

I’d like to thank you for reading the Official PCT for 2009 and supporting Primordial Performance!

Yours in health & fitness,

Eric Potratz
Primordial Founder & President

Questions?

Phone – 1-800-568-2924
Email - [email protected]
Visit - Primordial Performance
 
PP (or others),

I just wanted to know where you think Evista fits in on PCT. I have read your "The Official PCT of 2009" post and see that you rank the serms in this order: 1) Toremifene, 2) Nolvadex, 3) clomid.

I have two follow-up questions for you:

1) Would you use any of the SERMS in conjuction with another, for intance Nolvadex with clomid or Toremifene with clomid, or is this just overkill. I have seen numerous post recomending clomid and nolvadex together.

2) You did not mention Evista as an option. I have heard from some that Evista should be used during cycle to fight gyno as needed (however, I plan on using Letro for this if needed - is Evista better?). Is Evista a decent option for PCT instead of the other SERMS. I have a potential free supply of Evista if needed and am just figuring out if I should take advantage of it or stick to purchasing Letro and Nolvadex (maybe Toremifene if I can get it).

Thanks for the advice.
 
PP (or others),

I just wanted to know where you think Evista fits in on PCT. I have read your "The Official PCT of 2009" post and see that you rank the serms in this order: 1) Toremifene, 2) Nolvadex, 3) clomid.

I have two follow-up questions for you:

1) Would you use any of the SERMS in conjuction with another, for intance Nolvadex with clomid or Toremifene with clomid, or is this just overkill. I have seen numerous post recomending clomid and nolvadex together.

2) You did not mention Evista as an option. I have heard from some that Evista should be used during cycle to fight gyno as needed (however, I plan on using Letro for this if needed - is Evista better?). Is Evista a decent option for PCT instead of the other SERMS. I have a potential free supply of Evista if needed and am just figuring out if I should take advantage of it or stick to purchasing Letro and Nolvadex (maybe Toremifene if I can get it).

Thanks for the advice.

If you have a free supply of raloxifene then go with it. It tends to be cost prohibitive for most people as the average dose is about 120mg/day. However, it does seem to be less toxic than the other SERM's, but has a higher tendency to cause blood clots. (being the tradeoff for less liver toxicity)

-Eric
 
I'm new to this forum and I just have to say there is so much relevance and content within these threads. I especially found this post to be proof positive I'm in the right company!
 
Im on week 2 of pct coming off a 2 month tren cycle using Nolvadex 40 mgs/ day, HARDCORE TEST and a cortisol blocker my sex drive is coming back from having ZERO the entire cycle waking up with rock hard ons and i havent lost a pound infact some of my lifts have gone up... maybe cuz my muscles are holding a lil more water since coming off the tren :]
 
For a 16 week cycle (and I assume this applies to 20-22 week mild cycles as well...or do I take higher dose per week or more frequent dosing?), for someone who hasn't incorporated hcg throughout the cycle, you said to do one shot of 1000iu hcg per week for three weeks. I was wondering though if I can split it up into two 500iu shots maybe one shot every third or fourth day? The reason I am wondering about splitting up to 500iu is I read the following info that advises against going over 500iu hcg, and that it's better to just split it up throughout the week instead of one large dose higher than 500iu. Here is the info, would you let me know what your thoughts are regarding this:


"Swale's PCT protocol. He is a doctor (HRT specialist):

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of hcg (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of hcg per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when hcg is so inexpensive."
 
You recommended Toremifene as a better substitute for Nolvadex, but I was researching that and found the following study which doesn't look to promising as a nolva replacement. What are your thoughts? Thanks


====

Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 2000;45(5):402-8. Related Articles, Links
Dose-dependent hormonal effects of toremifene in postmenopausal breast cancer patients.

Ellmen J, Werner D, Hakulinen P, Keiling R, Fargeot P, Falkson G, Bezwoda WR.

Orion Corporation, Orion Pharma, Clinical R & D, Turku, Finland. [email protected]

PURPOSE: The purpose of the study was to compare hormonal effects of three toremifene doses, 20 mg (TOR20), 40 mg (TOR40) and 60 mg (TOR60) administered daily, in postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. METHODS: The study was randomized and open label in three parallel groups. Biochemical variables were identified as the serum concentrations of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). The changes were compared with objective clinical responses and to progression-free time. Adverse reactions and liver function test (aspartate aminotransferase, ASAT) were assessed for safety. RESULTS: A total of 260 patients were randomly grouped (90 to TOR20, 81 to TOR40 and 89 to TOR60). Of these patients 29, 29 and 22 completed at least 3 months of treatment and the results were analyzed for biochemical variables. All treatments had intrinsic estrogen agonist activity by decreasing of serum FSH and LH and by increasing of SHBG during the first 3 months (P < 0.01). Dose TOR20 showed slightly longer times to exert maximum estrogenic effects than did the two higher doses. No increases in liver function tests were seen in any of the groups. Objective response rates were 24.4, 39.5 and 32.6% (P = 0.01) and median times-to-progression were 206, 189 and 196 days in TOR20, TOR40 and TOR60, respectively (P = 0.913). Fewer responses were observed in the TOR20 group than in TOR40 (P = 0.05). Adverse events were reported in 19, 23 and 30 patients in the treatment groups (P = 0.20). The most frequently reported events were hot flushes and nausea. These were mostly mild or moderate, and only 1.5% of treatments was discontinued due to toxicity. CONCLUSIONS: Toremifene doses of 40 and 60 mg daily were effective and safe treatments of breast cancer in postmenopausal women, and no differences in their biochemical or clinical effects were seen. Toremifene at 20 mg/day had similar but slightly less potent antiestrogenic and estrogenic effects than the two higher doses.
 
For a 16 week cycle (and I assume this applies to 20-22 week mild cycles as well...or do I take higher dose per week or more frequent dosing?), for someone who hasn't incorporated hcg throughout the cycle, you said to do one shot of 1000iu hcg per week for three weeks. I was wondering though if I can split it up into two 500iu shots maybe one shot every third or fourth day? The reason I am wondering about splitting up to 500iu is I read the following info that advises against going over 500iu hcg, and that it's better to just split it up throughout the week instead of one large dose higher than 500iu. Here is the info, would you let me know what your thoughts are regarding this:


"Swale's PCT protocol. He is a doctor (HRT specialist):

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of hcg (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of hcg per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when hcg is so inexpensive."

after my 18 week test e cycLE ...eric from pp suggested i take 2500ius.....all aT ONCE....5 DAYS APART FOR 2 INJECTIONS//// then carried on with sustain and nolva for 30 days..
 
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'd love to hear Eric's input on that.

Also, Eric, I PM'd you my cycle a while back, hoping you can give me your thoughts on best way to incorporate HCG for my particular case towards the end of cycle or after cycle.

Also regarding toremifene vs. raloxifene vs. nolvadex if needed, as I pointed out a concern with the Toremifene in the above study.

Thanks,

SS
 
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'd love to hear Eric's input on that.

Also, Eric, I PM'd you my cycle a while back, hoping you can give me your thoughts on best way to incorporate HCG for my particular case towards the end of cycle or after cycle.

Also regarding toremifene vs. raloxifene vs. nolvadex if needed, as I pointed out a concern with the Toremifene in the above study.

Thanks,

SS

So is the site you link to reliable? Can anyone else vouch for it? Thanks.
 
You recommended Toremifene as a better substitute for Nolvadex, but I was researching that and found the following study which doesn't look to promising as a nolva replacement. What are your thoughts? Thanks


====

Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 2000;45(5):402-8. Related Articles, Links
Dose-dependent hormonal effects of toremifene in postmenopausal breast cancer patients.

Ellmen J, Werner D, Hakulinen P, Keiling R, Fargeot P, Falkson G, Bezwoda WR.

Orion Corporation, Orion Pharma, Clinical R & D, Turku, Finland. [email protected]

PURPOSE: The purpose of the study was to compare hormonal effects of three toremifene doses, 20 mg (TOR20), 40 mg (TOR40) and 60 mg (TOR60) administered daily, in postmenopausal women with advanced breast cancer. METHODS: The study was randomized and open label in three parallel groups. Biochemical variables were identified as the serum concentrations of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). The changes were compared with objective clinical responses and to progression-free time. Adverse reactions and liver function test (aspartate aminotransferase, ASAT) were assessed for safety. RESULTS: A total of 260 patients were randomly grouped (90 to TOR20, 81 to TOR40 and 89 to TOR60). Of these patients 29, 29 and 22 completed at least 3 months of treatment and the results were analyzed for biochemical variables. All treatments had intrinsic estrogen agonist activity by decreasing of serum FSH and LH and by increasing of SHBG during the first 3 months (P < 0.01). Dose TOR20 showed slightly longer times to exert maximum estrogenic effects than did the two higher doses. No increases in liver function tests were seen in any of the groups. Objective response rates were 24.4, 39.5 and 32.6% (P = 0.01) and median times-to-progression were 206, 189 and 196 days in TOR20, TOR40 and TOR60, respectively (P = 0.913). Fewer responses were observed in the TOR20 group than in TOR40 (P = 0.05). Adverse events were reported in 19, 23 and 30 patients in the treatment groups (P = 0.20). The most frequently reported events were hot flushes and nausea. These were mostly mild or moderate, and only 1.5% of treatments was discontinued due to toxicity. CONCLUSIONS: Toremifene doses of 40 and 60 mg daily were effective and safe treatments of breast cancer in postmenopausal women, and no differences in their biochemical or clinical effects were seen. Toremifene at 20 mg/day had similar but slightly less potent antiestrogenic and estrogenic effects than the two higher doses.

Thats the expected effect in women. SERMs have the opposite effect in men. (increase LH/FSH/Testosterone)

-Eric
 
With this PCT, there will be a rapid increase in LH, FSH, and testosterone, as well as almost a complete block on all the factors that could be causing your natural hormones to be delayed in returning to baseline. For this reason, I feel that the second your cycle is over is when you should start this PCT (a week after your last shot, or the day after your last pill is fine).

Remember, waiting for some of the extra androgens you’ve been taking to leave your body is nonsensical, as we want to start recovery as soon as possible to retain maximum gains. There is no evidence to suggest waiting any length of time after your cycle is over will increase PCT effectiveness…it simply prolongs the time you aren’t doing anything positive to regain your natural hormones. And how long do we run this for? Well…we need to stop the HCG relatively soon for reasons discussed earlier. But the Nolvadex, and Aromasin can be used for awhile longer. Ideally, we’d be getting weekly blood work, but we could also get it done monthly, and just running this

PCT until we see our natural hormones restored…but weekly bloodwork isn’t really an option for most of us. Failing the option of monitoring recovery with blood-work, I’m going to give you my best thoughts on the time you should be running your PCT. It’s important to note I haven’t discussed nutrition or other compounds that may be beneficial…this is because in this article, I am primarily concerned with the restoration of hormonal function, nothing else. And with no further delays, here are my recommendations for PCT ( You can find detailed TABLE in this source: Come OFF Steroids | Anabolic Steroid Articles):
Week Nolvadex HCG Aromasin Vitamin E 1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day 2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day 3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 20mgs/day 1,000iu/day 4 20mgs/day 20mgs/day 5 20mgs/day 6 20mgs/day
 
Question.....will the test recovery stack still be available after Jan 1st, with that bill being passed? im planning on buying it in the first couple weeks of january to use for PCT.
 
The TRS does not contain any hormone or prohormone. There's nothing to ban on it.
 
Do you need to store oral sustain alpha in the fridge?
 
Going back to the initial PCT post, I thought that test prop and tren ace PCT would start about 3-4 days after your last injection? You are supposed to wait 2 weeks?

Also, it says to take your last HCG shot about 2 weeks before the AAS has cleared out of your system, so taking HCG throughout a test prop and tren ace cycle how long before the last injection would you take your last shot of HCG?

And the Nolva combined with TRS is sufficient PCT for a cycle with tren?

Thanks!
 
Going back to the initial PCT post, I thought that test prop and tren ace PCT would start about 3-4 days after your last injection? You are supposed to wait 2 weeks?

Also, it says to take your last HCG shot about 2 weeks before the AAS has cleared out of your system, so taking HCG throughout a test prop and tren ace cycle how long before the last injection would you take your last shot of HCG?

And the Nolva combined with TRS is sufficient PCT for a cycle with tren?

Thanks!

Yes, you can wait a full 2 weeks to let the ace or prop ester get totally out of your system... although most guys are starting PCT about a week after their last injection.

You got it right on the hCG. You want to drop this at the same time you drop the ace and prop.

If you run hCG throughout the cycle you can recovery with a Nolva and TRS PCT.

-Eric
 
excellent thread there mate..! it is really informative especially for my workout here and also another information on what supplements i should take..
great thanks...!
 
excellent thread there mate..! it is really informative especially for my workout here and also another information on what supplements i should take..
great thanks...!

:jenscat
 
8 weeks of test enanthate and deca. 4 weeks of Dbol to start with too. How long after the 8 week cycle would you wait to start the PCT from Primordial Performance? TE and Deca finish on the same day. Is the 4 week PCT enough? Or would 8 weeks be better? Or just sustain alpha for 4 more weeks? Thanks
 
Im on my second last week of my sust cycle of 12 weeks....should i start taking hcg immediately? how much, how often and for how long? and clomid 3 weeks after last shot Ive gathered....
 
8 weeks of test enanthate and deca. 4 weeks of Dbol to start with too. How long after the 8 week cycle would you wait to start the PCT from Primordial Performance? TE and Deca finish on the same day. Is the 4 week PCT enough? Or would 8 weeks be better? Or just sustain alpha for 4 more weeks? Thanks

After an eight week cycle I would add a serm to the TRS to make full recovery.
 
Im on my second last week of my sust cycle of 12 weeks....should i start taking hcg immediately? how much, how often and for how long? and clomid 3 weeks after last shot Ive gathered....

If you didnt use hCG on cycle then you need to start hCG as soon as possible at 1000iu E4D for 4 shots, wait 4 days, then hopefully by then everything will be out of your system from the cycle and you will start PCT.

-Eric
 
This is a fantastic post! One quick question if i am starting a course this week of the below, when should i start using hCG and will Clomid be enough for my PCT?

Day 1 and 5 = 1ml Sustanon 250
Day 11 and every 6 days after 1ml Enanthate 200 (10ml Enanthate total)

thanks in advance
 
This is a fantastic post! One quick question if i am starting a course this week of the below, when should i start using hCG and will Clomid be enough for my PCT?

Day 1 and 5 = 1ml Sustanon 250
Day 11 and every 6 days after 1ml Enanthate 200 (10ml Enanthate total)

thanks in advance

So this is going to be an 8 week cycle?

You would start shooting hCG on week 3 at 250iu E4D. Clomid at 25mg/day for 4 weeks should be fine for PCT.

If you find that the clomid kills your libido too much, you can stack it with the Testosterone Recovery Stack.

-Eric
 
Im on week 2 of PCT coming off a 2 month tren cycle using Nolvadex 40 mgs/ day, HARDCORE TEST and a cortisol blocker my sex drive is coming back from having ZERO the entire cycle waking up with rock hard ons and i havent lost a pound infact some of my lifts have gone up... maybe cuz my muscles are holding a lil more water since coming off the tren :]
 
Great info as it clears up how to use HCG as I have been wondering how to cycle HCG on and off cycle.
PCT is something many of us get lazy doing from my personal experience.
I am a firm believer that you should have purchased or planned your purchases of PCT items before you start your cycle.
I have all my AI's, serms and TRS ready to go and this great info will help me spread its usage out for optimal recovery.
 
Great info as it clears up how to use HCG as I have been wondering how to cycle HCG on and off cycle.
PCT is something many of us get lazy doing from my personal experience.
I am a firm believer that you should have purchased or planned your purchases of PCT items before you start your cycle.
I have all my AI's, serms and TRS ready to go and this great info will help me spread its usage out for optimal recovery.

I fully agree. Too many people wait until their cycle has started or it is already too late before they look into picking up proper pct.
 
i took my last shot of test prop and tren acetate today along with my last shot of hcg at 1500 ius, i did a 1500 iu shot of hcg last week as well, was this not right? and on the chart it says for short esters to wait 2 weeks to start pct?? or am i mistaken, i thought it was 3 days after last shot of prop and tren ace
 
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