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No training while PCT = Keeping more gains!

satyricon1

satyricon1

New member
After a cycle, when your hormone levels are completely fucked up, you start your PCT in order to get things back in order. You eat a lot to prevent losing weight. Hopefully you can gain some even.

If however you goto the gym, you cause micro trauma to your muscles, instead of repairing and building new muscle, the body now allows the muscle tissue to break down due to low concentration of maintanance hormone levels.

Every time I have done PCT, I have stayed out of the gym, just eating like a beast and relaxing.

I have never had a problem with losing all my gains...

Whats your thoughts on this?
 
Basicly when you work out, you lower your hormone levels, the body tries to prevent muscle growth. Therefore, going to the gym while your hormones are non excistant is a no no. What IGG-1 is concerned, its a theory that microtrauma releasing IGF-1 while on PCT would be an anabolic factor, however, it is not this insulin growth factor alone that decides wether to gain weight (muscle) or not. IT simply signals that repairs are required.

I am personally 6'3, currently at 240 pounds.

Any and all muscle breakdowns caused by working out during PCT will make you lose more gains than needed. Cardio will have the same effect. Dieting will have the same effect. You do not have to eat 6000 kcals, but you should not eat less than what your daily requirements are. Usually something like 18 x your weight in pounds, should be fine.

Anyways, this is just my personal experience. I have also read about this, it goes against all "training logic and gym myths", but thats the point.. now isnt it?

Take a minute to think about it. When you have exceeded your genetic potential, there are even more processes in your body that wants to downgrade your musclemass. Even more important to stay out of the gym during PCT. The more muscle you have, the more you will lose during PCT if you goto the gym...

Ever heard about people that got sick at the end of their cycle, and far into pct... they could not got the gym, they were stuck in a chair or whatever. When they go back to the gym months later... hardly lost much strenght at all and the volume is still impressive once they get their pump going. Thats a prime example of this theory in effect.

Anyone got any personal experience with this, other than myself?
 
thatbloke said:
its true to an extent, however incorrect to a point

the better option is lowering the volume of ur gym workouts to adjust for the hormone decreases

that way only cause minimum damage to muscle fibers, n maintain ur metbalsim, boost up ur hormone levels faster since weight training increases a release of natural hormones, maintain CNS strength etc

the main problem with people on PCT is usually they train like there on cycle still, or as u pointed out dont eat enough

u need to remeber muscle loss on PCT is guarenteed for those who exceed there genetic potential

if you are able to maintain ur gains during PCT fairly easy, it is also a sign u are not very close to ur genetic potential as alot of guys are on this forum are

ive seen alot of guys who brag about how they kept all there gains after PCT and brag about it, then they tell me there 5'10 and 190 pounds and i realise why, its simply coz there still a size a natural could have acheieved

then another guy complain how he lost all his gains with this super duper PCT everyone told him to run, then he tells me how hes 5'10 again, but 225 pounds and could neally bench 400 at the end of his 1 gram cycle, well wat did ya expect?
Click to expand...

quoted for truth
 
satyricon1 said:
Basicly when you work out, you lower your hormone levels, the body tries to prevent muscle growth. Therefore, going to the gym while your hormones are non excistant is a no no. What IGG-1 is concerned, its a theory that microtrauma releasing IGF-1 while on PCT would be an anabolic factor, however, it is not this insulin growth factor alone that decides wether to gain weight (muscle) or not. IT simply signals that repairs are required.

I am personally 6'3, currently at 240 pounds.

Any and all muscle breakdowns caused by working out during PCT will make you lose more gains than needed. Cardio will have the same effect. Dieting will have the same effect. You do not have to eat 6000 kcals, but you should not eat less than what your daily requirements are. Usually something like 18 x your weight in pounds, should be fine.

Anyways, this is just my personal experience. I have also read about this, it goes against all "training logic and gym myths", but thats the point.. now isnt it?

Take a minute to think about it. When you have exceeded your genetic potential, there are even more processes in your body that wants to downgrade your musclemass. Even more important to stay out of the gym during PCT. The more muscle you have, the more you will lose during PCT if you goto the gym...

Ever heard about people that got sick at the end of their cycle, and far into pct... they could not got the gym, they were stuck in a chair or whatever. When they go back to the gym months later... hardly lost much strenght at all and the volume is still impressive once they get their pump going. Thats a prime example of this theory in effect.

Anyone got any personal experience with this, other than myself?
Click to expand...

this does sound like a very good theory. Surely by not working out at all, it won't bode well for keeping gains. However, it could lessen the loss to an extent under this theory
 
so now you have low hormone levels and you are overeating so you're now putting on bodyfat

heavy physical exercise upregulates anabolic signaling even in hypogonadal males.
 
thatbloke said:
its true to an extent, however incorrect to a point

the better option is lowering the volume of ur gym workouts to adjust for the hormone decreases

that way only cause minimum damage to muscle fibers, n maintain ur metbalsim, boost up ur hormone levels faster since weight training increases a release of natural hormones, maintain CNS strength etc

the main problem with people on PCT is usually they train like there on cycle still, or as u pointed out dont eat enough

u need to remeber muscle loss on PCT is guarenteed for those who exceed there genetic potential

if you are able to maintain ur gains during PCT fairly easy, it is also a sign u are not very close to ur genetic potential as alot of guys are on this forum are

ive seen alot of guys who brag about how they kept all there gains after PCT and brag about it, then they tell me there 5'10 and 190 pounds and i realise why, its simply coz there still a size a natural could have acheieved

then another guy complain how he lost all his gains with this super duper PCT everyone told him to run, then he tells me how hes 5'10 again, but 225 pounds and could neally bench 400 at the end of his 1 gram cycle, well wat did ya expect?
Click to expand...

Good post thatbloke.

I lost a fair amount during PCG, however now that I am 10 weeks from the end of my first cycle, I see that my body is in better shape then before the cycle. That's how I know I kept quality gains and added to my once maximum achievable natural physique.

To the OP:
Your post is interesting. I definitely agree that volume must be lowered post-cycle. However the devil is in the details in regards to how long you stop exercising for...
 
babushka said:
Not going to the gym for about a month or more that's retarded.
imho
Click to expand...

agree. critical period for working out is day 1-16 of PCT. most HST programs has a good 2 week break to allow fibrine to break down. I time mine to PCT. On first 2 weeks on HST its feather weights n high reps. BRILLIANT FOR 10 WEEK CYCLES.!
 
I love working out period it makes me feel good I couldn't imagine taking more then a week off ever
 
Just to make sure we are all on the same page, let me just explain some of the principles of HST-training that converts in particular to the PCT period.

We know that after a muscle have received "micro trauma" there will be buildt up a fibrine layer wich makes sure that dammage (microtrauma) to the muscle will not happen again, given the same tension is being used again. This means that when you go back to the gym, you lift heavier than you did last workout, to break down the fibrine layer and cause micro trauma.

The point of micro-trauma is to break the muscle fibres, allowing signal substances to enter the bloodflow from the dmgd tissue. Not going to detail the different substances, it is a bit on the side of the point.

Now, when you have reached close to your 1RM in the gym, you simply can not put on more weight, the fibrine layer is not broken down and you will not inflict micro trauma. You can still feel exhausted from doing 100 sets, but that is simply your nerves being overexposed by electrical signals, compare it to a burned out el-cable.

This is when you take a 2 week break from the gym, no lifting what so ever. This will allow the fibrine layer to break down, exposing the muscles unprotected, allowing even the lightest of weights to cause micro-trauma to your muscles, giving the maximum effect of the workout, equal to what your workouts were like a few weeks back when you lifted super heavy.

Concidering this, by the end of your cycle, you are as strong as you will ever be. You lift extreme weights and your fibrine layer keeps adjusting to protect your muscles from Micro trauma. During PCT, you will no longer be able to lift AS HEAVY, therefore you will not be able to break down the fibrine layer in the gym.

This converts to the fact that LIGHT workout, will have no effect, other than exhausting your nerves. The muscles will not receive microtrauma, so there is no signal substances going into your bloodstream, and so forth.

The body does not signal for muscles to evaporate because you are out of the gym for a week or two. Think about what causes musclebreakdown; lack of nutritions..

A person that stays out of the gym for a long period of time, will experience that their muscles goes into hybernation. Up to 60% of a muscle can be inactive. Once you get back to the gym, your muscles gets activated and you increase in size and strength over a short period. This happens while your on your 2 week break in HST as well. You feel smaller, you get weaker, but most importantly, you get extremely energetic, rested and ready to go. A few workouts later, you are back to where you were, as full, as strong and feeling even better. Also, the light lifting has impact on your size, because no fibrine layer says that you get micro-trauma from it. Resulting in growth factors, signal substances doing their job.

So by timing the brek to the PCT, allowing fibrine to break down, you will get back in the gym again on week 3, when hormones actually has started to elevate. No fibrine layer, maximum micro-trauma, and growth is actually possible during PCT, "drugfree". Yes you lose your water weight, yes you reduce strength, but your overal gains, will remain.

HST-training is extremely intriguing, because of all the science that goes into it. I have been eating and breathing HST for years now, I will never train in any other way, again!.
 
Interesting post, I did not know much of the above

so what in your opinion is an ideal time to take off, 2 weeks, a month?
 
aj13 said:
so what in your opinion is an ideal time to take off, 2 weeks, a month?
Click to expand...

The basic idea of HST is to divide your workout up into the following setup:

First you determine your 1RM in all the excersises you are going to do. You will work out the entire body every time you goto the gym. You goto the gym 3 times a week. This makes it 3 sets on each bodypart pr week. Sometimes ppl split upper/lower body, and work out 5-6 days a week.

Now that you have your excercises and 1RM, you drop down to about 40% of 1RM and you increase the weights by 5% for each workout. This is how you divide your program:

Week 1-2: You are now at about 40% of 1RM, you will do 15 reps on each exercise. Every workout you increse weight by 5%. At the end of week 2 it is now getting extremely heavy and hard to do 15 reps.

Week 3-4: You are now reducing reps to 10. The week feels incredible easy, this boosts your psychological ego and you get new energy to continue. As you increase by 5% each workout, the end of 4th week will be extremely heavy....

Week 5-6: You are now down to 6 reps pr exercise. Again it feels very easy and light, you keep increasing by 5% every workout, at the end of week 6... again it feels incredibly heavy.

Week 7-8: If you have a spotter or training partner, increase the weights to 120% of your 1RM and do negatives. 6-10 reps on each exercise. If you do not have a spotter, continue the same way as you did in Week 5-6. Your goal is to achieve 3 reps in each excersise.

Week 9-10: Your Fibrine layers now need to deteriorate, you can simply not lift more weight. After this period of resting, you start the program all over again, you now will have full benefit from the 15 rep weeks and you will never enter a situation where you work out super heavy and feel no progression or gains. Whenever that happens, you need to take a break from the gym, get fibrine layers deteriorated, start out again with super light weights, and reap the same benefits as if you were working out heavy.

Now, some people may wonder why you only visit the gym 3 times a week and why you only do 1 (ONE) set pr excersise.

When you work out the entire body in a single day, your volume of training is greater than any other trainingprogram. This requires huge ammounts of callories in order to not get overtrained etc. Simply put, it is hard to gain fat when you work out this way, we are talking lean muscle.

Secondly and most important, whenever a muscle receives microtrauma, the stiumulants will enter the bloodflow, they will never work locally, hence why doing squats/deadlifts will increase your bicep size. Bigger muscles have more stimulants to release to the bloodflow. By working the entire body, every muscle receives microtrauma, this results in huge levels of hormones and peptides in the bloodstream, these will bind to the dmgd muscles all over your body and signal that repairs are needed. By not doint squats/deadlifts, the concentration of growth factors in your blood, are reduced, hence less gains in the musclegroups you love the most.

Finally, these factors peak 24 hours after microtrauma is received, and lasts for 48 hours before the levels are dramaticly reduced. Because all your muscles are dammaged by microtrauma, working them out again before the repair is complete, is counterproductive and will result in break down of muscle tissue and stagnation. Also called overtraining by myth.

So working out every other day is optimal, however, because of the constant increase in weight, having 2 resting days in a row, once a week will prepare the body and replenish both psychological and physical energy.

The program has 2 positive results, that I have not found within any other program over the 20 years I have worked out. The share volume/size of the muscles from the high rep weeks and the incredible increase in strength from the mid/late weeks are just unbelievable. After 1 full program cycle, if you not down the weights you are using, you will notice that everything is rediculously easy on the 2nd cycle. And this is the way it continues cycle after cycle.

Hope that helps clarify things.
 
I trained just as hard off cycle as I did on cycle and I actually got stronger on PCT. Lost only 3lbs after gaining 15lbs during my 4 week PCT but continued to strengthen all of my compound lifts. I can't explain the exact physiology behind this but as you all know, every person is different. The only thing that I considered to be a huge negative was the loss of the ability to recovery faster so I did more resting and more eating but I never felt like I was overtraining or as the OP says, "breaking down muscle too much".

I think this post sounds fancy and logical but from my personal experience, it is invalid. I agree with lower volume but if you know your limits and are in tune with your body then you know when too much is too much.
 
I agree with both of you, my goal with this post is simply to explain the physological processes that are relevant, each and their own have to find what works best for them, but it is very important to allow science a place in the equation. =)
 
keep training fellas. dont stop. just realize your strength is gonna begin to drop and your size is gonna SLOWLY go away. its a bitter pill to swallow but it WILL HAPPEN. you have gone beyond your genetic potential, and you will go back down. however you SHOULD after all is said and done have more strength and look better then when you started.

if not, then it wasn't a success.
 
satyricon1 said:
agree. critical period for working out is day 1-16 of PCT. most HST programs has a good 2 week break to allow fibrine to break down. I time mine to PCT. On first 2 weeks on HST its feather weights n high reps. BRILLIANT FOR 10 WEEK CYCLES.!
Click to expand...

I also timed my HST break at PCT.

HST is definitely the way to go for most people.
 
My "natural" weight is something like 175 lbs at 10% bf. Right now (4 weeks into pct) I weigh 229 lbs at 10.5% bf. At the peak of my bulking cycle I was 235 lbs and 12.5% bf. The reason I'm not losing much is because:

1) I am not starving myself. You are right on about that! But, I'm not over-eating by any great deal either. I know my body and what it takes to tip things in the balance of fat loss without sacrificing too much muscle.

2) I don't over-train to begin with. I follow my own little strength/size building routine, make progress, and get plenty of rest. I do usually only train 3 days per week, sometimes 4 and sometimes I take a week off if absolutely needed. My training is moderate-high intensity and low-moderate volume.

3) I keep using GH and gh secretogues post cycle- both in low-mod doses but effective. I also will use an anti-e post cycle like aromasin at 12.5 mg per day or less. And, I use a sarm at a low-moderate dose. I'm also not against igf-1 and so forth during pct/bridge. Why not take advantage of these products in sensible doses when not blasting the juice?

And, like someone else mentioned, I've gotten stronger well into my pct before. And, it's not only about when the esters clear, but more about what I'm eating, whether I'm on a sarm, and where I'm at in my strength gaining cycle. If I've got "room to grow" or get stronger even after the esters clear, then I will. I know my body. Steroids work, but they are just part of the equation.

I agree with the basic premise of the original post, but I feel everyone should really get to know their individual needs when it comes to this. I like to take time off as needed, and only as needed!

I've put on nearly 20 lbs of muscle/lbm in the last 2 years and that was after several years of bulking/cycling steroids etc. At that point I had something click for me and I knew that I wasn't "putting it all together" correctly up to that point- mainly I had only netted 12 lbs or so in gains in 3 years of cycling at that point! I was doing it wrong- wrong for me anyway. And, I believe a lot of people are taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps back after every cycle. I don't think training and rest are the only factors in this, but, yes, they are very important!

(It's late and I'm rambling, I realize that... :) )
 
I see a lot of people are talking about their genetic potential and that they have exceeded it. I am by far near my genetic potential, and I am currently at 250 pounds with 11% bodyfat. I have worked out for 20 years, mainly natural. When I do a cycle, I want to keep most of the gains, minus water weight. Ofcause I am using creatine Monohydrate while on, and I do not stop it, ever. It will help retain waterweight.

If I had SARMS available to me, I would gain during PCT, hands down, no doubt in my mind. I have been able to gain while on tren PCT by using HCG injects, I gained about 15 pounds after my previous tren cycle, that I kept.

When it comes to eating, I am focusing on getting enough protein, total cals is about 500 above my daily average. This makes me lean out a bit, and I get pretty lean gains. I use nolva/arimidex on cycle to prevent bloating, about every 3rd day i take 0.25mg Adex and I add nolva 20mg for a few days if i notice puffyness or feel bloated. So by the end of my cycle, I do not have a whole lot of waterweight to shed.

End of the line is that I do not belive in genetic potentials in the manner that many use it on these forums. I see people using sick ammounts of gear, and they eat like 600 pound freaks, but they are doing the same worthless workout routines, year after year after year after year, without any understanding of how the stimulation of muscles and growth works. Some people even sit in the gym 7 days a week pumping the same muscles groups over and over and wonder why they did not gain shit on their cycle, so next time they increase the dosages...

Get a program that is scientificly proven. A program that focus on hypertrophy. Eat enough, dont overeat, take breaks, use gear to increase the gains you would get if you were clean. If you cant gain clean, you need to reconcider your workout/rest routine. I have never stoped gaining naturally, even tho I sometimes prefer a kick by juicing.

End of the line is, eating, gearing and sleeping is important, but you have to get the correct stimulus for your muscles to grow more. Size matters nothing, as long as you are able to establish hypertrophic environment for your muscles.
 
Very good post man! I see what you are saying.

QUOTE=satyricon1;9791745]I see a lot of people are talking about their genetic potential and that they have exceeded it. I am by far near my genetic potential, and I am currently at 250 pounds with 11% bodyfat. I have worked out for 20 years, mainly natural. When I do a cycle, I want to keep most of the gains, minus water weight. Ofcause I am using creatine Monohydrate while on, and I do not stop it, ever. It will help retain waterweight.

If I had SARMS available to me, I would gain during PCT, hands down, no doubt in my mind. I have been able to gain while on tren PCT by using HCG injects, I gained about 15 pounds after my previous tren cycle, that I kept.

When it comes to eating, I am focusing on getting enough protein, total cals is about 500 above my daily average. This makes me lean out a bit, and I get pretty lean gains. I use nolva/arimidex on cycle to prevent bloating, about every 3rd day i take 0.25mg Adex and I add nolva 20mg for a few days if i notice puffyness or feel bloated. So by the end of my cycle, I do not have a whole lot of waterweight to shed.

End of the line is that I do not belive in genetic potentials in the manner that many use it on these forums. I see people using sick ammounts of gear, and they eat like 600 pound freaks, but they are doing the same worthless workout routines, year after year after year after year, without any understanding of how the stimulation of muscles and growth works. Some people even sit in the gym 7 days a week pumping the same muscles groups over and over and wonder why they did not gain shit on their cycle, so next time they increase the dosages...

Get a program that is scientificly proven. A program that focus on hypertrophy. Eat enough, dont overeat, take breaks, use gear to increase the gains you would get if you were clean. If you cant gain clean, you need to reconcider your workout/rest routine. I have never stoped gaining naturally, even tho I sometimes prefer a kick by juicing.

End of the line is, eating, gearing and sleeping is important, but you have to get the correct stimulus for your muscles to grow more. Size matters nothing, as long as you are able to establish hypertrophic environment for your muscles.[/QUOTE]
 
satyricon1 said:
After a cycle, when your hormone levels are completely fucked up, you start your PCT in order to get things back in order. You eat a lot to prevent losing weight. Hopefully you can gain some even.

If however you goto the gym, you cause micro trauma to your muscles, instead of repairing and building new muscle, the body now allows the muscle tissue to break down due to low concentration of maintanance hormone levels.

Every time I have done PCT, I have stayed out of the gym, just eating like a beast and relaxing.

I have never had a problem with losing all my gains...

Whats your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/p...ling-into-pct-after-cutting-cycle-663566.html


When coming of a cycle the main goal is to keep as much gains as you can. At least for most people. Except what if your whole cycle was geared around fat lose and cutting?

When your whole cycle was geared around maintaining muscle size and strength well dropping body fat. Does PCT,diet,and training change when it comes time for PCT?

After all for you the goal when the cycle is over is still the same. To get threw PCT with out losing muscle,and or gaining fat.

Heh seems pretty damn tough PCT predicament you got yourself into don't it. Its likely you have been running below cals,taking clen,t-3,steroids like winny,primo,masteron and others. Lots of cardio maybe? High volume training?


When the contest prep or cutting cycle is over most often people just say AAAAAHHH fuck it and let the weight pack on. What if you don't want that though? What then. These questions have many answers and they depend on many factors.


However I will attempt to make a common rule of them for coming off a cutter and everything you can do to keep the muscle,strength well not gaining tons of BF at the same time.


I will address each factor 1 by 1. Feel free to object all you like and throw in what works for you. This is just a basic outline.


Training.

Coming off any cycle this is a common question everyone wants to know. Do I keep training as often, with the same level of intensity,same work out,same weights,same reps. What about cardoi.

1. when you come off cycle wether its a bulk cycle,cut cycle,lean bulk it don't matter. You can not train as often as you did when you were on. Yes you can still bust your ass every day you step into the gym but its a fact my friends "your muscle are not recovering as fast and you have to adjust training for this reason"... No way around it no matter what. So be it coming off bulking or cutting or what ever Less time in the gym and more time off recuperating is key. focusing on the big basics and doing them right.

A 3 day or 4 day training split. Something like this would work but its up to you to put the training together.

Day 1 ON
Day 2 ON
Day 3 OFF
Day 4 ON
Day 5 OFF
Day 6 ON
Day 7 OFF

Or any variation of but the point it allowing your muscle more time to rest.

What about killing them muscles and beating the crap out of them? gain sorry if you are not genetically gifted its a no go.

Lower the reps and raise the weights. focusing on the big basics all exercises to be done strict with focus one adding weight to the bars each week.

yes you may lose some strength when coming of but if you cut it bac to the basics, get plenty of rest, eat right, and take the right sups then this does not have to be the case.

Now I am sure you are wondering about cardoi? 10-15 min warm ups before work outs. 1-2 long sessions on off days. Thats plenty and do not over do it.

So to sum up training when coming off cycle.
1. cut back to the basic lifts,
2. focus on the core compound lifts most, with adding weight to the bar as the main goals
3. Add in some other lifts but do not over do it. Even these should be lower reps with more weight and not a tun of volume.
4. lower volume down not mean less intensity. What ever you do put as much effort into it as always.
5. A little more rest time between sets 1-2 mins
6. sleep,rest,sleep,rest give your body the rest it needs.
7. Keep up with cardoi but do not start going nuts with it thinking its going to help you keep the fat off. muscles will suffer.

Diet
Ok you were below cal maintenance well on your cycle and that was fine because steroids helped. Now what?

No more super fast nutrition retention,no more steroids helping you recover faster. Sure does suck don't it. Guess what its about to suck even more. Unless you can get this one perfect your screwed (again genitally gifted need not apply thanks)

Kick calories up to just above maintenance and Protein better be a big part of the kick up 50/30/20 is a good idea
if you keep it real clean you should not have a problem. Not eating enough during this time is the most common down fall of all. Most people think they are not on so they should eat less. Or maybe they think eating a lot less will save them from gaining fat again... Again your muscles will suffer and in the end so will body fat% Just keep it clean and eat more not less.

You are going to gain some BF% back but if done right its not going to be a crap load... Don't be the guy who freaks out and losses his head just because it happens. Stick to the plan.



OK PCT and sups when coming off.

So First thing is first. Recovering the nuts back,getting test flowing is the main focus. We all have that special PCT we hold dear to our hearts. BIG DEAL!!!! (genetically gifted need not comment)

Ok the basic recovery PCT
Clomid and or nolva
HCGenerate
forma-stanzol
post cycle and Unleashed blah blah blah blah

The reason for this thread is not to discus what to use to recover your hpta. Get take something and get it done. All of them work for many different reasons but that is for a whole different topic not this thread. Clomid and nolva are not going to add anything extra to the recovery process or two helping keep off the bf% and preserve muscle mass though. There job=help recover hpta thats it. Not nutrition retention,not burn fat,not more blood volume,not give you more energy,focus,make you feel better in any way shape or form. Strictly recovery of the hpta thats it nothing more nothing less. They can work for what they need to work for but thats all they are for.


So what other sups can you take with your PCT to help get threw the PCT after a cut?

cla

If you were on clen then a CNS fat burner is not the best choice but switching to a Thermo fat burner like forged post cycle or others for the first few weeks can help.

If t-3 was part of the cycle then a natural Thyroid helping product is a good idea ZIP works well. Add Taurine as well.

A NO+energy product combo that is not loaded with extra useless cals,sugars,and fillers. combos that can help

lipostim AM dose
amo2+forged burner or if you need more kick Am02+lipostim for pre work out as well.


Creatin post work out only or at least avoid using any sugar filled flavored brands. Useless cals is not what you want at this time. Ethyl ester or rawmcc threw out the day is fine.

BCAA's threw out the day. Of course I think gear will be perfect for this but what ever just use them threw out the day. Again just avoid any sugar filled flavored liquid kinds.

Feel free to add what ever you like. Ask any questions you like, fill in anything I missed.

We are all a team.

Can be switched up a bit for after a bulking cycle but its about the same ideas.
 
First of all I want to say, VERY good post N2get! Many good points there!

About my stats and being a liar, I basicly never shoot at people.. but here goes: I am 191cms or about 6'3. Currently at 117kg or around 246 pounds. Been training all my life, mostly natural. Thatbloke; If its you on the avatar.. then I feel sorry for you. I read about your cruising, synthol etc, I really do not think you are as big as of "reached your genetic potential" yet. Maybe there are other factors that could be altered in order to help you gain more mass. I really do not understand the need for personal attacks, maybe you disagree with my theories, wich is perfectly fine, personal attacks are not.

Moving on...

The discussion about working out during PCT is very interesting, but not yet concluded. Let me detail why the PCT workout is of no benefit. As we all know, in order to get igf-1 levels up, and other signal substances, you have to break down muscle fibers. In order to break down a muscle fiber, or create Micro Trauma, wich it is actually called, you need to cause a workload on the muscle that exceeds the protective fibrine layer surrounding the muscle. If you do not exceed this load, there will be no dmg to the muscle itself, however, the nerves providing electrical impulses to the muscles about contractions will still be overloaded and can result in major soreness lasting for days.

Now that you have come off the steroids and are into your PCT period, your strength has been greatly reduced. Concidering that you need to lift heavier weights than you did in your previous workout to create micro-trauma, it is not likely that you will be able to achieve this, concidering the reduction in strength. The fibrine layer will deteriorate over time, aproximately 10 days is what it takes for a fibrine layer to be completely broken down to minimum resistance protection. This means that you will have microtrauma in your muscles lifting about 40% of your 1RM. If you take 10 days off, or 2 weeks off from the gym during your early pct, you will break down the fibrine layers. Once you hit the gym again, you can increase your growth factors by causing micro trauma to your muscles, by lifting fairly light weights. This is essential. Without microtrauma, no growth factors, no growth factors, no growth and most importantly, no anabolic state. It will only effect your combustion of callories, equalling a moderate cardio run. Who wants to do cardio during PCT?

If however you are able to lift heavier during your workouts in PCT than you did in your last workout on cycle, go ahead and do it, cause the micro trauma and enjoy the benefits, however, if you can not exceed the workload, take a break, allow fibrine to break away and enjoy great gains from light workouts. Resulting in a very anabolic state in a catabolic environment.
 
This is really an interesting thread. In med school we were always taught that when you stop stressing your muscles they atrophy. I can see some logic behind what you are saying but it's hard to wrap my head around it all. This is exactly why I joined this site, to learn new ideas and hopefully contribute medically
 
Thatbloke: Fair enough, guess I overreacted as well =D

Footdoc: you are correct, but keep in mind that before the muscles can be broken down, the fibrine have to go first, when its gone, you hit the gym again and reap the benefits. It is actually using science and biology to maximize gains =)
 
satyricon1 said:
Thatbloke: Fair enough, guess I overreacted as well =D

Footdoc: you are correct, but keep in mind that before the muscles can be broken down, the fibrine have to go first, when its gone, you hit the gym again and reap the benefits. It is actually using science and biology to maximize gains =)
Click to expand...


hey bro it makes sense as far as size goes, but what about keeping strength gains. I dont care about size but i do care about strength so doing something like a 5x5 in PCT would be good yea?
 
A little side note on HST...Satyriconl got me started with that. In the first week I gained 10 lbs! Also huge thanks on everyone who has helped me with my diet. I see a huge difference in a very short time. My cycle is deca and test cyp.
 
Basicly science says that in order to stimulate muscle growth you need to cause rapture in the muscle fibres, aka Micro Trauma(MT). If you lift 200 pounds in bench on your last workout with gear, you can not goto the gym during the following week at PCT lifting 180 pounds and expecting a benefit. 180 pounds is not enough to break through the protective fibrine layer surrounding the musclefibres, and therefore it will not cause micro trauma. You have to lift example 205 pounds in order to make that happen. So I am basicly saying that if you cant lift MORE, you need to stay out of the gym until fibrine layers are broken down. At wich point, you can bench 100 pounds, cause maximum Microtrauma and reap the benefits. 10 days to 2 week out of the gym will not make you lose muscles, it will remove the fibrine layer, your muscles will lose its pump and you will get a bit softer and feeling weaker, however, you recover quickly.

The main problem people do in the gym is that they ignore light weights and go directly to heavy weights and lift until failure. First of all, FAILURE as we know it is not muscle exhaustion to the point of not being able to lift no more, it is simply the nerves overloaded with electrical impulses telling your muscles to contract. At failure your nerves can no longer give the required signals. The fact that you feel completely broken down 2 days after the workout is not your muscles aching, but your nerves equal to burned out elcables, being repaired.

In theory our muscles are made to be used every day. It would suck for the stoneage people to only be able to go hunting once a week due to workoutpain etc. So when people goto the gym and lift 200 pounds until failure, you have 48 hours of growth factors active from the workout, however, if you do not workout the same muscles again after 48 hours the growth stops, until the next time you work out the muscles and cause microtrauma. However, if you lift 200 pounds again when you goto the gym, you will not cause microtrauma, but you will exhaust your nerves. If you work by a 10 week program and stay on the same heavy weights the entire time, your growth will be extremely slow, even with gear.

In order to create the greatest growth environment you should make sure that you lift 5% more weight on each excercise every workout. By reducing sets and spreading them throughout the week, you will cause micro trauma each workout, and you will hit the gym before the 48 hour window is exceeded and constantly keep growth factors activated. If you train your chest and tris once a week til failure, you will have 48 hours of growth factors, no matter how hard you train, the 5 following days.. nothing. If you however train your chest and tris 3 times a week, every other day, increase the weight by 5% each workout, you will have 7 days a week of growth factors, meaning that you will grow every day of the week, not just 2 days every week on each section. This is the reason why I have had incredible gains working out mostly natural for close to 20 years now.

When I can no longer increase the weightload, I take a break from the gym, resetting the fibrine layer so I can benefit from light weights and increase the load every workout for 8-10 weeks. Since the steroid cycles I like are lasting 8-10 weeks, it fits my workout program perfectly, so i get my rest period on the first 2 weeks of PCT. You still need to eat well. On week 3 of PCT I hit the gym again, now I am down to lifting donal duck weights, 40% of 1RM in every excercise and I increase the load by 5% every workout thereafter.

I strongly suggest you read up on the HST-theories, if you have yet not tried it, I think it will really change the world of BB for you forever. HST is not unique, most programs are based on hypertrophic ideas, the thing is that the program tells you to do something, but it does not explain why. HST is based around science and research, putting all the knowledge and results down as a basis to explain how the body works, allowing you to manipulate your body to the maximum of musclegrowth benefits. Starts out with high volume reps and as weights get heavier, reduction in reps every other week, until you reach the last 14 days of your workout where you do negative lifts.
 
satyricon1 said:
Basicly science says that in order to stimulate muscle growth you need to cause rapture in the muscle fibres, aka Micro Trauma(MT). If you lift 200 pounds in bench on your last workout with gear, you can not goto the gym during the following week at PCT lifting 180 pounds and expecting a benefit. 180 pounds is not enough to break through the protective fibrine layer surrounding the musclefibres, and therefore it will not cause micro trauma. You have to lift example 205 pounds in order to make that happen. So I am basicly saying that if you cant lift MORE, you need to stay out of the gym until fibrine layers are broken down. At wich point, you can bench 100 pounds, cause maximum Microtrauma and reap the benefits. 10 days to 2 week out of the gym will not make you lose muscles, it will remove the fibrine layer, your muscles will lose its pump and you will get a bit softer and feeling weaker, however, you recover quickly.

The main problem people do in the gym is that they ignore light weights and go directly to heavy weights and lift until failure. First of all, FAILURE as we know it is not muscle exhaustion to the point of not being able to lift no more, it is simply the nerves overloaded with electrical impulses telling your muscles to contract. At failure your nerves can no longer give the required signals. The fact that you feel completely broken down 2 days after the workout is not your muscles aching, but your nerves equal to burned out elcables, being repaired.

In theory our muscles are made to be used every day. It would suck for the stoneage people to only be able to go hunting once a week due to workoutpain etc. So when people goto the gym and lift 200 pounds until failure, you have 48 hours of growth factors active from the workout, however, if you do not workout the same muscles again after 48 hours the growth stops, until the next time you work out the muscles and cause microtrauma. However, if you lift 200 pounds again when you goto the gym, you will not cause microtrauma, but you will exhaust your nerves. If you work by a 10 week program and stay on the same heavy weights the entire time, your growth will be extremely slow, even with gear.

In order to create the greatest growth environment you should make sure that you lift 5% more weight on each excercise every workout. By reducing sets and spreading them throughout the week, you will cause micro trauma each workout, and you will hit the gym before the 48 hour window is exceeded and constantly keep growth factors activated. If you train your chest and tris once a week til failure, you will have 48 hours of growth factors, no matter how hard you train, the 5 following days.. nothing. If you however train your chest and tris 3 times a week, every other day, increase the weight by 5% each workout, you will have 7 days a week of growth factors, meaning that you will grow every day of the week, not just 2 days every week on each section. This is the reason why I have had incredible gains working out mostly natural for close to 20 years now.

When I can no longer increase the weightload, I take a break from the gym, resetting the fibrine layer so I can benefit from light weights and increase the load every workout for 8-10 weeks. Since the steroid cycles I like are lasting 8-10 weeks, it fits my workout program perfectly, so i get my rest period on the first 2 weeks of PCT. You still need to eat well. On week 3 of PCT I hit the gym again, now I am down to lifting donal duck weights, 40% of 1RM in every excercise and I increase the load by 5% every workout thereafter.

I strongly suggest you read up on the HST-theories, if you have yet not tried it, I think it will really change the world of BB for you forever. HST is not unique, most programs are based on hypertrophic ideas, the thing is that the program tells you to do something, but it does not explain why. HST is based around science and research, putting all the knowledge and results down as a basis to explain how the body works, allowing you to manipulate your body to the maximum of musclegrowth benefits. Starts out with high volume reps and as weights get heavier, reduction in reps every other week, until you reach the last 14 days of your workout where you do negative lifts.
Click to expand...

Great info on HST!

I've been training HST for two years and am a firm believer.

How do you feel about the negative reps? I usually neglect them for lack of a gym partner.
 
Discreet User said:
Great info on HST!

I've been training HST for two years and am a firm believer.

How do you feel about the negative reps? I usually neglect them for lack of a gym partner.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is my problem too. Either my partner just isnt serious and lasts half the program or whatever other reason, so I am just extending the previous two weeks, but I keep increasing weight and reducing reps. At the last workout I am usually down to 3 or 2 reps in each excercise. Heavy =D
 
satyricon1 said:
Yeah, that is my problem too. Either my partner just isnt serious and lasts half the program or whatever other reason, so I am just extending the previous two weeks, but I keep increasing weight and reducing reps. At the last workout I am usually down to 3 or 2 reps in each excercise. Heavy =D
Click to expand...

That's what I do as well. Go down to 3s, and can feel the heavy weights in my bones.
 
i wouldent stop working out but i would lower the amount maybe, when off.
 
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