Vertical Leap training thread

[coolcolj]

Yeah but plyos is just one one area of the total wheel of conditioning. You can shorten your stretch reflex times as much as you want from plyos, but without the ability to deliver a lot of force in that 0.1-0.2 secs it takes to jump you ain;t leaving the ground in a hurry

And that's one reason why heavy slow weights will not work after a while becuase , you can't generate the force in 0.1 of a sec. That's where sub-maximal weights moved ballisticly come in.
ie jump squats, olympic style lifts, speed squats etc

having said that, you still need to be very strong, if you can full squat 500lbs you can bounce around with 250 pretty easily

 

[PolishHammer1977]

My vert is climbing again. I am over 40 and I'm bulking. you gotta love this. I'll have some video for ya'll shortly. I know I've been stalling but it will be well worth it for someone. Even if that someone happens to be me.

 

[Citruscide]

Yeah but plyos is just one one area of the total wheel of conditioning. You can shorten your stretch reflex times as much as you want from plyos, but without the ability to deliver a lot of force in that 0.1-0.2 secs it takes to jump you ain;t leaving the ground in a hurry

And that's one reason why heavy slow weights will not work after a while becuase , you can't generate the force in 0.1 of a sec. That's where sub-maximal weights moved ballisticly come in.
ie jump squats, olympic style lifts, speed squats etc

having said that, you still need to be very strong, if you can full squat 500lbs you can bounce around with 250 pretty easily

Hey... Nationals... track and field... enough said.

Just razzing you CoolCol

Now a days, if I wanted to jump that high, I'd agree with you broly.. I'm 240 right now and I don't think that staight plyometrics would help me attain the same verticle.

Back in the day, I weighed 165lbs, was squatting 275 for reps... and could probably 1RM around 350 if I remember correctly... so I HAD the strength in my legs to do that...

What i needed for high jump, was an explosive jump with a TWIST... my abs were crutial... calves were dynamic and really were hit with the apex of my training... so were my hammies...

The plyometrics consisted of around 75% of my training, 20% being sprinting and another 10% being in the weight room.

At 6'1", I had a great verticle LEAP. And when I'm going over the bar, in the flop... I am not using my 42" verticle leap... I'm using centripetal force to pull me over the bar, to help carry me... it's an art really.. I was the shortest jumper at my school (that amounted to anything) and I was definately the shortest white dude I came across... (again, that did anything)

Now if you want to dunk a basketball, standing straight under the hoop, without moving, but jumping straight up... no problem... lol

C-ditty

 

[coolcolj]

Well you could squat around twice your own bodyweight which is pretty much the requirements for depth jumping for optimal gains

 

[Citruscide]

Well you could squat around twice your own bodyweight which is pretty much the requirements for depth jumping for optimal gains

A-HEM *pointing to plaque on wall that says "NATIONALS"*

LOL -- sorry bro... I just picture it and it sounds funny.

Yeah... the squatting thing wasn't something I developed in the gym... from all my OTHER training, I could do that amount of weight... I don't ever remember KILLING myself ot increase the weights...

C-ditty

 

[Tagio]

Could either of you elaborate a little on what you do for box/plyometric work? I understand what a depth landing, or a depth jump, or a jump squat IS, but I have no clue how you make that kind of exercise into a workout. Do you do sets that last until you're too tired to do anymore, or sets of 15, or what? I feel like I'd be doing too much, turning it into some kind of cardio, or too little, not getting any effects at all.


That said, my legs are pretty weak compared to my bodyweight, so I don't think I need to add plyometrics just yet. In fact, because of all the aggressive inline I've done (which is basically a million vertical leaps, depth landings and depth jumps), I think my jump is really good considering just how weak my lower body actually is.

 

[coolcolj]

posted at tmag forums - I personally wouldn't do depth jumps in such highr eps, no more than 5, 3 is better. Also this guy had some serious strength base.

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Interesting. Years ago when I first began doing plyometrics, I mail ordered a plyo book (which I've since lost dammit - and can't recall the name of) that advocated a direct correlation between the height of the box, and it's direct impact on specific performance parameters ie: a 28-31" box for vertical leap and power enhancement - which makes sense, as Christian pointed out that the degree of flexion will determine total motor unit recruitment/strength power outputs, as the increased heights will force one into a deeper squat position, with greater latency prior to the ballistic rebound - and lower heights 15-21" for enhanced, short range quickness, such as you 'first step' in football or basketball. Using those parameters, in addition to jump squats, I was able to increase my vertical from 27" to 36" in about 6 weeks, using an average box height of 30 inches. Thought provoking thread.

Tony, The protocol that I followed for Depth Jumps was roughly as follows

-Warm up for 10-15 minutes ? light squats, stationary bike, or even an upper body workout - make sure you have a good sweat and the knees are ready to go!
the height of the box is relative, I think to the individuals strength and motor unit recruitment, if you find yourself bottoming out,with TOO much latency, lower the box. As you adapt neurologically, you can raise the height back up. As a general rule you shouldn?t drop much farther than parallel, before you explode UP.
-Begin depth jumps from a height of 30-31 inches 6 sets x 10 reps with 120 seconds between sets
-4 sets of depth jumps + hurdles from the same height on the depth jump ?
the hurdle protocol as I recall called for specific preset lengths and heights on the hurdle jumps, approximately 36?
high and 4-5 feet apart. What fascinated me about the hurdle jumps, just as in the depth jumps, is that the author
specified the height of the hurdles and the distance betw the jumps into specific performance distances and
applications ie: higher hurdles, closer together for maximal power and short distance (20-40 yards)
sprinting, lower hurdles, farther apart for longer sprinting distances ie: 100-200 yds. Which in my experience,
when followed, has largely held to be true. ? SO ? to complete a ?hurdle rep? do a standard depth jump
then immediately transition UP and FORWARD into the hurdle series (approx 3-4 hurdles)

I followed the above protocol for 6 weeks 2 days a week.
I would finish each workout with 3 sets of jump squats while holding 50lb dumbbells in each hand, going to failure
In each set. During this time, I?ll keep the volume on Leg day to a minimum, focusing on strength,
as the neurological demands are HIGH! I can say the level of explosiveness gained, as well as stamina is
Awesome. My genetic makeup is largely type IIb I think..based upon my size and lifts. I?m 5?11 and currently
210 at 12% - (my goal is to be an athlete, not an atypical body builder?not that bodybuilders aren?t ?athletes?) and NEED to lean out!
When I attained the above results, I was 195lbs and well into single digits in BF.

In order to maximize the above protocol, I?ve found it ideal embark on it after or midway thru a
Strength phase, which I feel will help you maximize your new strength and mass, which will immediately
Translate into increases in performance on the field/court. When I added the 9in to my vertical over that time period
I had just gotten off of a 6 week strength phase, where my best triple in the squat was 585, up from a prev best of
494. That?s really the value of plyo, I think. It allows an athlete to actually USE the strength and mass gained from
all the hours in the gym and at the training table, in an explosive, attacking fashion ? doesn?t it stand to reason
that the strongest, most powerful athletes, SHOULD be the most explosive? Well, YES, provided that they can
activate all that mass and power, on a DIME! That?s the value of doing this at the tail end, or AFTER the strength, or
hypertrophy phase. The research that I?ve read, in addition to my amateur coaching experience tells me that, even if an
athlete is NOT predisposed to a type IIb profile, or is known as an explosive athlete on the field, explosive training (whether
it be plyo or oly lifts) will significantly increase the recruitment of those motor units, and significantly impact that individuals
performance, provided that the muscular FOUNDATION is there.

On a side note?I?ve also done depth jumps while using ?strength shoes? ?now I know a lot of cats on the forum
Are skeptical of them, However, I?ve had nothing but good results with them. When using the ?shoes? in addition to the
Above plyo w.o. I was able to drop my 40 to 4.58 (I was never a speed demon!) and got my vert to 38?then I blew my knee out
In a game But there you have it. In a nutshell, that was the protocol, which you can tweak based upon your goals and
Experience?and to keep Christian from pummeling my noggin...I?ll see if I can dig up that book somewhere?Lord forbid he?d whack me with a kettle bell ..heheee. The book also had some sweet hill training protocols?and TOW TRAINING from a car/truck?gitty up,
I LOVE THIS STUFF..i?m all about the functionality of lookin? good and kickin? ass baby ? Christian, Coach Davies, these new forums are AWESOME.

 

[coolcolj]

Jump Squat Info from a Thrower forum archives -

Of interest

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Ken Sprague
11:10 PST, 08/05/2000

Jeff,
I had Chris use sand-filled innertubes draped across the shoulders for resistance during squat jumps. I also had him doing ballistic push-ups with a sand bag perched on his upper back (you need a spotter for this one).

The key reason the jumps and ballistic push-ups have such a positive effect for the thrower is that they allow acceleration (w/ resistance) throughout the movement as the body leaves the floor. Conversely, w/ the equivalent barbell movements of squats and bench presses, the body/bar decelerates toward the end of the movement.

Although I've referred to them as resistance plyos, and there is certainly a plyo effect on landing followed by immediate concentric movement, I think the acceleration (through the concentric movement is the most beneficial aspect of the exercises.

In general, the "resistance plyos" are analogous to training like you compete--acceleration through the movement. [A good practical example of the results of this type training is Chris: he threw the 12#/16# shots approximately 68'/60' feet at the end of his high school senior season when able to bench press only 235#. But, the accelration training in the weight room precipitated his acceleration in the ring.]

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Andy Bloom
16:13 PST, 10/18/2000

Ken, I must respectfully disagree with your suggestion to fieldboy that you would choose jump squats if you only had to choose one form of squating to do. My reasoning is two-fold.

First, I did a full year of jump squats leading up to the '98 season. My improvement in jumping ability was incredible and I did throw farther, but I totally fried my electrical system. By the end of the season I was throwing two to three meters less in the discus and one meter less in the shot than I had hit early in the year. I had no leg explosiveness left and couldn't jump worth anything. The primary lesson that I learned was that there is a time and place for all styles of training. Since then I have used conventional power lifting early in the year to develop a good base and then made a slow transition over the course of the indoor and outdoor season to all jump squats. The result has been two straight years of PRs in my final competition of the year. This year I managed to keep my explosiveness despite a major injury. The other thing I have noticed is that doing exclusively jump squats does not help my discus as much as my shot put. This leads me to my second problem.

As far as I remember, fieldboy is a young discus thrower who also toys with the shot put. As a young athlete I don't think he should be subjecting his body to the rigors of jump squating. When I spent my year doing jump squats I was already a 700+ pound squatter, had a 400 pound power clean and a 37 inch vertical and 10'6" standing long jump. That is to say that I was already a developed athlete who needed to find something to take me to the next level so I decided to shock my system. There is no way that fieldboy is developed to this point, not to mention the fact that his core strength cannot be good enough to withstand the forces of jump squatting. I would also worry about subjecting a young high school athlete, who's growth plates have not fully closed, to those type of jarring movements. I don't know what the effect would be. I know you did these things for your son and he did well with it, but from what I understand, your son is built a good bit like me and can handle the loads you put on him. I wonder if fieldboy is built the same and what his history is.

Fieldboy, my answer to your question would be to do regular squats to just below parallel and add some light plyometric exercises.
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Andy Bloom
15:07 PST, 10/19/2000

I started the year with 400 pounds for 3x12. this was at a time when i was doing 550 for 3x12 in a normal squat. I began the year with what i called explosive squats where i didn't actually break contact with the ground. I didn't break contact until I got down to sets of 6. My best that year was 575 x 3.

At the end of the year my jumps were 40 (VJ) and 11'8 (SLJ)

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Ken Sprague
16:16 PST, 10/18/2000


Andy,
Thanks much for your post. I want to expand on my recommendations for jump squats--as a respectful rebuttal to your post. I would love to be sitting eye to eye with you during the discussion; but it's always great "talking" w/ you whether in person or at a great distance.

First, you noted that your "improvement in jumping ability was incredible and I did throw farther" after a year of jump squats. You go on to say that "by the end of the season" you were throwing 1 meter less, that you had "couldn't jump worth anything." In summation, squat jumps built tremendous explosive as evidenced by your jump, but then you lost it.

Putting those two facts together, could it not be the case that you were overtraining--too great a frequency or volume of jump squats?

I want to make a point here: acceleration training is subject to overtraining just as any other athletic activity.

Incidentally, just like strength, acceleration can be lost for one of two obvious reasons. One is overtraining; the second, quite naturally, is undertraining. Stop strength training and your strength will drop: Stop acceleration training, and the capacity to accelerate will diminish.

I'm happy that you still highly value jump squats as you noted making "a slow transition over the course of the indoor and outdoor season to all jump squats."

I flatly disagree about your assumption that any special power base needs to be developed before jump squats are added to the training routine.

As long as progressive resistance [the old stand-by] is followed, jump squats are as appropriate as standard squats.

For example, I had a group of girls--who had never lifted before--start jumps squats on day-one of training. The first weeks were w/ bodyweight, then a 20# sandbag, thereafter 30#, and up and up as the physical capacity adapted to the commensurate progressive resistance. No problems; the erectors, thighs, hips, spinal stabilizers, shoulder girdle, etc. have progressively adapted to the ever heavier loads. [They are having a similar experience to your improved jump--one is jumping approximately one foot higher, all are markedly improved.] Throws are continuously improving. The key is progressive resistance, just as would be the case for a novice squatter. Incidentally, Chris was doing squat jumps (as a ten-year-old) years before he performed a standard squat.

Two notes which weren't directly addressed in your post: first, the intensity (and protein degradation) of jump squats mandates infrequent workouts--once every 7 - 10 days; second, in my opinion, they should never be performed w/ a barbell--that's just asking for trauma. The bar often localizes the forces on the spine--the sand bag spreads the force making the lift actually comfortable on the shoulders.

One more point: the resistance of the sand bag isn't going to allow the beghinner or intermediate lifter get far off the ground; hence, there isn't going to be much force on landing. I suspect there would likely be more force generated on landing from shooting a lay-up---because of the drop from a greater height.

I continue to recommend the jump squat for any athlete wanting to increase explosiveness.

Always your friend,

Ken


Ken Sprague
17:23 PST, 10/19/2000


Todd,
First, I'm going to ask a question before answering yours. Have you ever tried an "easy squat" bar? I ask because I avoided the easy squat bar for many years, out of habit I guess. But I was an instant convert after my first trial run. I push the easy squat bar because it's perfect for self-assisted reps--and the athlete has the advantage of a generally natural movement. The design also places relatively more stress on the legs than the back--an important factor when using >1RM weights.

I don't have any experience doing assisted squats on a Smith machine. I don't know first hand how that might work in practice. The Smith machine is great for assisted incline presses--but that doesn't help you since you need a spotter (to assist) for that movement. If you try the Smith machine for self-assisted squats, please let me know how the experience turns out.

As for squat jumps with dumbbells, they're better than no squat jumps at all. The problem w/ dumbbells: the athlete tends to jump with unnaturally upright posture. [Try squat jumping w/out any resistance and follow that w/ jumps using dumbbells (or holding a plate)--you'll immediately appreciate the difference in form.] A natural jumping posture--which is not inhibited by a sandbag on the shoulders--is more dynamic, working the erectors into the movement to a greater degree. The natural jumping posture can be accomplished w/ a sandbag or vest.

There is one more major concern w/ dumbbells--imagine the problem when you work up to jumping w/ very heavy dumbbells. Conversely, imagine the relative ease of having an equivalent weight in sand spread across your shoulders and traps.

I know this response isn't the most concrete advice--you're going to have to experiment, perhaps to find an intermediate approach, given the limits of the garage and training alone.

I would heartily recommend that you at least try one 50# sand-filled innertube--you can snatch it over your shoulders and toss it into a corner when finished.

Ken

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Ken Sprague
19:08 PST, 10/19/2000


Coach K,
Your post of 16:54 (10/18/00) is very interesting!

Your assumption is absolutely correct: "the greatest benefit...[of] jump squats [is] the muscle fiber recruitment that goes on in explosive, upward drive of the lift." The training benefit is improved explosive extension and thrust of the legs, hips, and erectors.

You go on to ask an interesting and complex question (hopefully I'm correct in my condensation): As a supplement to standard squats, which is safer, squat jumps or "intense" plyometrics (hopping stadium stairs, depth jumps, etc)?

Although I've trained many athletes (males/females/adults/children), I've never observed a single injury during squat jumps. Keep in mind that I won't use anything but sand bags as resistance.

On the other hand, I have observed many injuries during traditional "intense" plyometric exercises--particularly among larger, male athletes such as football linemen and throwers.

I think the difference is the generally controlled two-leg landing of the squat jumps as compared to the often unbalanced landing of many plyometric movements; and, the landing forces of squat jumps are much less than would be the case as in some plyometrics such as depth jumps.

[Note, however, there is a true plyometric effect on landing-and-subsequent-extension during squat jumps. But, the generally controlled movement makes the effect less risky to attain.]

The last point of your post questions the potential for longterm detrimental effects to the spine and growth plates of younger, developing athletes?

Frankly, I doubt there is an inappropriate risk to the younger athlete in performing jump squats. Calculating forces at landing, there is less force on the spine and growth plates during a jump squat than during a typical two-legged landing from a lay-up--the relative height of the drop from the highest point of the respective jumps is the telling factor. [This comparison calculates even w/ unreasonable resistance on the shoulders.] Of course, imagine the forces when landing on one leg--and basketball players keep growing taller.

Incidentally, hopscotch is a great kindergarten plyometric--not many kids are hurt from the activity.

One more random thought: the growth plate scare kept younger athletes from participating in regular weight training activities a generation ago. I hope that scare doesn't find renewed life w/ squat jumps--or hopscotch. Yes, proceed cautiously w/ progressive resistance, but the tens-of-minutes per week of squat jumps won't harm growth plates.

I hope this adds to the dialogue.

Ken

 

[Citruscide]

Could either of you elaborate a little on what you do for box/plyometric work? I understand what a depth landing, or a depth jump, or a jump squat IS, but I have no clue how you make that kind of exercise into a workout. Do you do sets that last until you're too tired to do anymore, or sets of 15, or what? I feel like I'd be doing too much, turning it into some kind of cardio, or too little, not getting any effects at all.


That said, my legs are pretty weak compared to my bodyweight, so I don't think I need to add plyometrics just yet. In fact, because of all the aggressive inline I've done (which is basically a million vertical leaps, depth landings and depth jumps), I think my jump is really good considering just how weak my lower body actually is.

Well, the workout I did is definatly not something that a "weak lower body" could step into... maybe at a lower intensity and changing the workout to reflect it though (but that'd be a different workout, right?)

I'd have 3 boxes lined up (as an example) the smalles being 12" the second being 24" and the third being 36"... there were times I'd have a 40" box as well... I'd jump down, jump up jump down jump up... then run back to the beginning and do it again... I have DONE a routine like that for UP to 30 minutes... I had amazing endurance... I collapesed after it... but I think that someone who wasn't geared for that, would collapse.

I did many other exercises as well, however.

C-ditty

 

[coolcolj]

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