training volume/sets

[musclepump20]

It sounds like everyone has a different view on how many sets is sufficient for each body part. Here's what I think:
2 sets is too little for any exercise. You can't stimulate all the muscle fiber in just two sets per exercise. An experienced physical therapist gave me a rehabilitation routine for my shoulder that has me doing 3 sets for each of the 7 or so exercises. In general, I think for a growing phase, you need at least 9 sets for smaller body parts, 3 sets per exercise, and 16 sets for large muscle groups, 4 sets per exercise. Guys who juice could do a lot more. For cutting, higher volume is better, doing about 3-4 more sets per body part. It also depends on the muscle itself. If it is dense, like the calves or forearms, more sets you will need to stimulate it. The bis aren't as dense, so they can benefit from a little less than average. The size of the muscle also determines how many sets to do, like do you you think you could get nice full quads from just 2 or 3 sets of squats and some leg extensions? Maybe if you are extremely genetically gifted. I used to do 25 sets on average for chest, back and shoulders each, and 20 for bis and tris. I was sore at first, but you adjust to it. I myself am going to try cutting back on total sets by about 4-5 per muscle group, but I don't see how you could even get a good pump off of only 2 sets of any exercise. Maybe I'll try it and find out.

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stay hungry

 

[Cackerot69]

I have something to tell you...

you're wrong.

If you would like to discuss this issue further, just hollar

 

[crunch1]

Cackerot69,

I would like to know how old you are, how tall you and what you weigh. If possible I would like to see a pic of you so you could show everyone the great gains you can make doing your routine. Maybe you can save everyone a lot of hassle by getting them to reduce the volume. Please post your routine as well.

Thanks.

 

[GenetiKing]

Musclepump,

I agree with you wholeheartedly, my friend. But you are probably gonna get flamed for this one. Too many low-volume trainers around here, hehe!

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Backstage, '75 Olympia:

Serge Nubret, "I look like I can take you."

Arnold, "Keep looking."

 

[Cackerot69]

I feel i need to explain...

"2 sets is too little for any exercise. You can't stimulate all the muscle fiber in just two sets per exercise."

Why not? If i perform 2 sets to concentric failure, and next week, i get 2 more reps...did i stimulate my muscles enough for growth?

"An experienced physical therapist gave me a rehabilitation routine for my shoulder that has me doing 3 sets for each of the 7 or so exercises."

What does this have to do with anything? We are talking about buidling muscle and gaining strength, not rehabilitating an injury.

"In general, I think for a growing phase, you need at least 9 sets for smaller body parts, 3 sets per exercise, and 16 sets for large muscle groups, 4 sets per exercise."

Why is that? What benefit will i get from increasing my sets from 6, to 16?

"For cutting, higher volume is better, doing about 3-4 more sets per body part."

That is a huge misconception. Sure, doing a few extra sets will burn some more calories, but that shouldn't be your focus when weight training. The only reason to Weight train is to build muscle and/or strength. That is the only thing that weight training can accomplish. To burn fat, cardio may be implemented, and/or you can decrease your caloric intake.

"It also depends on the muscle itself. If it is dense, like the calves or forearms, more sets you will need to stimulate it. The bis aren't as dense, so they can benefit from a little less than average."

How the hell would you determine if a muscle is "dense"?

"The size of the muscle also determines how many sets to do, like do you you think you could get nice full quads from just 2 or 3 sets of squats and some leg extensions?"

Yup.

"I used to do 25 sets on average for chest, back and shoulders each, and 20 for bis and tris. I was sore at first, but you adjust to it. I myself am going to try cutting back on total sets by about 4-5 per muscle group"

Cut down even more. Did you get anywhere on such high volume? Where you just starting when you used it?

"but I don't see how you could even get a good pump off of only 2 sets of any exercise. Maybe I'll try it and find out."

It's this thing called intensity. If you do an all out, balls to the wall set of Squats, you will be absolutely dead, have a very hard time walking, and wondering how the fuck you ever did 20 sets for any bodypart.

Crunch, I am 5'9, 175lbs. Yeah, small guy, right? Well, considering just a year ago i was 5'9, 115lbs...i think my theories are working pretty good...One thing i never understand is the fact that people equate size with knowledge, if i was 220 and just picked up a weight, would i be more credible? BTW, i have never touched gear.

MY current routine is as follows...

Monday - Legs/Abs

Squat-5x5
Leg Curl-3x6
Calf Raise-2x10
Weighted crunch-2x8-15

Wednesday - Chest/Shoulders/Triceps

Bench Press-3x6
Incline DB Press -ss- Flye-2x6-10
Weighted Dips-2x6
Shoulder press-2x6-10
Rear Lateral-2x6-10
Skull crusher-2x6-10

Friday - Back/Biceps

Deadlift-3x6
Weighted Chin-3x6
Barbell Row-2x10
Preacher Curl-2x6-10
Static grip-1x60 seconds, 1x30 seconds

No Flames here, Genetiking

 

[musclepump20]

cackerot69, sorry, but some of your sometimes ignorant responses got on my nerves. What works for you doesn't mean it'll work for everyone else. If you can completely exhaust yourself and get such a burn after a couple of sets of squats as to where you can't do another after a couple minutes of rest, you might want to include some cardio in your routine to help flush out all that lactic acid in your muscles efficiently. While you brought up one good point,("Why not? If i perform 2 sets to concentric failure, and next week, i get 2 more reps...did i stimulate my muscles enough for growth?")
it's obvious to see you are being too quick to accuse differing views and have more to learn on weight training just by reading your rebuttals. Your sometimes ignorant replies didn't even relate to the point I was trying to make("Sure, doing a few extra sets will burn some more calories, but that shouldn't be your focus when weight training.") I wasn't talking about losing weight. Have you heard that single joint higher volume training will help get a muscle into its peak condition, sculpted so you can see every cut and striation? Cardio alone won't turn you from a bulky puffball to a work of art. If you disagree with this you are going against decades of training philosophies and general guidelines that worked for pros and that have worked for me. ("How the hell would you determine if a muscle is "dense"?") Because some muscles are more densely compacted than others, making them more difficult to develope with lower volume training, calves especially. Maybe you can get growth from doing just a couple sets an exercise, but what's not to say you could get even more from an extra set or two? I'm not doubting that you could stimulate SOME growth with a couple INTENSE sets, but that is still not a considerable workload for any muscle group to develope to its full potential. Nothing personal, just trying to set my points straight.

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stay hungry

 

[Cackerot69]

While most of that post was just insulting my intelligence, you did ask some questions, and made some decent statements. So, i shall respond.

"("Sure, doing a few extra sets will burn some more calories, but that shouldn't be your focus when weight training.") I wasn't talking about losing weight."

What else would you be trying to do while cutting?

". Have you heard that single joint higher volume training will help get a muscle into its peak condition, sculpted so you can see every cut and striation?"

I've heard that, and it is completely false.

"Cardio alone won't turn you from a bulky puffball to a work of art."

True, you have to weight train to become "a work of art", but low volume training will get you there faster than anything else.

"If you disagree with this you are going against decades of training philosophies and general guidelines that worked for pros and that have worked for me."

Your point? Do you always just go along with the majority? I happen to research things, experiment, etc. I don't blindly follow the pros. Sure, it will work for you, any stimulus will create a response. I can tell you 100% sure, that you will gain better on lower volume.

"Because some muscles are more densely compacted than others, making them more difficult to develope with lower volume training, calves especially."

I don't understand what you mean by dense. I don't understand how one muscle can be more dense than another. By saying a muscle is dense, you are saying it is compact, i don't see your reasoning.

"Maybe you can get growth from doing just a couple sets an exercise, but what's not to say you could get even more from an extra set or two?"

What's to say you will? There comes a point when more volume becomes counterproductive. That point can be reached when test starts to decrease and cortisol starts to increase. That occurs roughly 45 minutes into an intense training session. Additionally, once you stimulate your muscles enough to maximize growth, anything more is just eating into your recovery time, thus decreasing growth.

"I'm not doubting that you could stimulate SOME growth with a couple INTENSE sets, but that is still not a considerable workload for any muscle group to develope to its full potential."

You say this, but can you back it up? Not from what i have seen so far, EXPLAIN yourself! Progression is the stimulus of muscle growth, you must train to maximize progression in order to maximize growth, and high volume does not accomplish this.

"Nothing personal, just trying to set my points straight."

Same here

 

[musclepump20]

cackerot69, I am not merely following everyone else and simply listening to the pros because they are a whole other rank. I do experiment myself, just not that low of volume, because I strain for every rep of every set most often to the point of light-headedness or incredible burn, and after the hour and 15 min in the gym, I sometimes still have enough energy to keep going. But I know it's time to call it a day when the pump disappears, otherwise you're working past the point of exhaustion. I do see what your saying, and I understand what you said about elevating cortisol levels, yes, but show some proof of your own, and try to analyze more of what the other person is saying before you criticize when you don't fully understand the point they're making. It's late and I'm tired, I am going to get some rest now.

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stay hungry

 

[Maximum Intensity]

Haven't we learned that this whole sets/reps argument will never be resolved. What works for one person is not going to necessarily work for another -- blah, blah, blah, wine, wine, wine. Start listening to your body and stop listening to what your buddies or the so-called experts writing this or that column in muscle whatever magazine has to say. This argument gets so old. I have trained in both high volume and low volume fashion. Guess what? I gained on each of the programs. Train hard, keep your body guessing, eat well, eat big, and get some sleep -- you'll grow regardless if you are doing 2 or 20 sets.

 

[mac sloan]

MusclePump said,
Cackerot69, I am not merely following everyone else and simply listening to the pros because they are a whole other rank. I do experiment myself, just not that low of volume,

*** I'm just trying to understand your logic here, you say you experiment but you don't experiment all avenues.
If one experiments they will exhaust all avenues including trying some sort of "HIT" method. Each method has there place, it takes a experienced and knowledgable trainer to know how to fit each method into their programs.

because I strain for every rep of every set most often to the point of light-headedness or incredible burn, and after the hour and 15 min in the gym, I sometimes still have enough energy to keep going.

*** It's not about quantity its about quality, do not judge your workouts by time nessicarily.

But I know it's time to call it a day when the pump disappears, otherwise you're working past the point of exhaustion.


*** I think that this statment here proves that you are lacking in knowledge when it comes to the physiology aspect of weight trainiing. The pump has no corelation to muscular exhaustion.
No flame intended, just trying to help