Talk me into 5x5 workouts

[FFQuads]

Here is my workout...I'm sure I will get flamed for not doing 5x5s but I have been training this way for years. I change exercises every 4-6 wks. To be honest....I afraid to change it. I get great results from what I do. So, have a look at my stats. and training and let me know what you think. You can find some pictures of me on the first page of the members pics. threads. They are a bit old and I have lost some weight. I will be starting a bulk cycle Sept. 1st.

I am a Firefighter so the Monday-Friday schedule does not work for me. I just train on my days off and while on duty if there is a workout that I can do at the station....I do it. Thanks..........and don't forget - MEATHEADS only please. I want some FREAKS telling me what to do or change

Stats:
5 ft. 7 inch.
184 lbs.
bf ???

Max:
Bench - 315 lbs.
DL in diamond - about 500-550 lbs.
Squat - about 475 lbs....maybe more???


chest:
flat bench - 4 sets 6-8 reps
incline bench - 4 sets 6-8 reps
fly - 4 sets 6-8 reps

back:
DL - 4 sets 6-8 reps
lat pulls - 4 sets 6-8 reps
T-bar rows - 4 sets 6-8 reps
DB rows - 4 sets 6-8 reps

legs:
squats - 4 sets 6-8 reps
straight leg DL - 4 sets 6-8 reps
leg press - 4 sets 6-8 reps
leg curls - 4 sets 6-8 reps
leg ext - 4 sets 6-8 reps
calves - 4 sets 6-8 reps

shoulders:
free BB press - 4 sets 6-8 reps
delt raises, lateral and post - 4 sets 6-8 reps
shrugs - 4 sets 6-8 reps
DB press - 4 sets 6-8 reps

arms:
close grip BB press - 4 sets 6-8 reps
straight BB curls - 4 sets 6-8 reps
cable push downs - 4 sets 6-8 reps
DB curls - 4 sets 6-8 reps

 

[al420]

does not seem like enought sets to me!!!!!!!!!! - and aren't you a bit tall to be a BB?

 

[mekannik]

engage: rant
Rudeness level: 4

Talk you into a different program?? What - are you someone special? We need to waste our time because you are too busy or illiterate to read the hundreds of other posts/stickies regarding 5x5? Get lucid....

5x5 is a program. Are you stale with you current one? Are you happy with your massive 315 bench? Are your biceps thunderous and chest cleavage rivaling that of Jenna Jameson? Can you deadlift with a straight bar?

Jesus H. on a pogo stick. Meatheads and freaks need only reply?? If that was not a joke on your part - it should have been.


Go to www.crossfit.com - that is supposed to be the end all, be all for firefighers, cops, soldiers, blah, blah, blahs.


disengage: rant
Rudeness level: normal

 

[BiggT]

FF, it isn't so much the program or the layout that is important, and that isn't even the reason that the '5x5' info. is posted on this site. The important thing is that the compound lifts improve and you eat enough calories. You start all of your days with a big lift, and probably train it progressively, meaning using more weight for the same sets/reps....or more sets/reps with the same weight. Thats how you progress. Thats how everybody progresses. You seem to be doing that now, which is why you have come a ways with your training.

In my opinion, all the extra accessory work done simply for the sake of doing it is not necessary and is a waste of time. In strength training (the 5x5 is just 1 example of a solid layout) the assistance is cut down and only used if and when weaknesses arise in lifters who can no longer progress linearly. The rest of the days are spent adding frequency to the big lifts, whether it be for 'practice' or for upping weekly/monthly workload. Instead of spending time on things that really don't make you big and strong and only are a little bit of metabolic work and comprise maybe .001% of your gains (leg extensions, flyes, lateral raises, crossovers etc etc), the idea is to train movements and not bodyparts and fill in time spent training fluff stuff with more frequency on the big lifts, getting better at big lifts means more muscle. Thats the idea in a nutshell.

If you're happy with you're progress and you feel you are still progressing, then no need changing what isn't broken, if curiosity is getting the better of you and you have no problem making some changes, try it, it certainly won't hurt you, and training in that manner certainly packs on muscle, naturally, to athletes all over the world.

One thing I can guarantee you is this : You have gotten the results you have from improving your bench, squat, deadlift, and military press.....you'd be surprised at how little of a role the lateral raises, flyes, arm workouts etc played.

 

[Madcow2]

Just to add to what Biggt said:

If your program is working - don't touch it until it doesn't.

The best way to verify progress is a benchmark core lift(s). Is your best set of X on the squat, bench, row, dead, overhead better now than it was some time ago. This is how you tell whether something worked or not.

Bottom line, people swap exercises and rep ranges around all the time and play the acclimation and reacclimation game, if you change something or lifts and it is fundamentally effective it will impact the core lift performance when you go back to it. So for example, you squat 350x5 and then drop or minimize squatting for a bit and work on your leg press and all kinds of other stuff increasing their weight over 4-6 weeks. The telltale sign of progress is in moving back to the squat and after a few weeks of reacclimation improving that best set of 5 performance by some margin. If that doesn't happen - guess what, you are spinning your wheels and creating the illusion of progress but simply acclimating, deacclimating, and reacclimating to different means of training.

So if that's happening and your core lifts routinely move north with predictability and rate, good enough. All programming is just a means of going about adding weight to the bar. The whole 5x5 thing is just teaching training theory and programming and how it changes and adapts with the trainee at various points of experience. I don't see much programming or application going on in your example but honestly if the end result is being accomplished - whatever is happening is good enough and you seem to be happy with it. If you get bored or eventually stall out, maybe try something else. If you wanted to get an understanding in advance there's a ton of info on my site, maybe spend some time reading the "essential" marked training theory subjects. You'll get more out of that than reading BBing boards for years and you'll be ready to apply some of it when your programing does eventually stall out. That would be the most optimal use of your time and you'll be able to see exactly what is going on in the two sample 5x5 programs that is putting this to work. But do remember, there is no golden program - there is only progression and methods of going about getting it that may or may not be effective for a given trainee at a given point in time at a given experience level. http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

 

[FFQuads]

engage: rant
Rudeness level: 4

Talk you into a different program?? What - are you someone special? We need to waste our time because you are too busy or illiterate to read the hundreds of other posts/stickies regarding 5x5? Get lucid....

5x5 is a program. Are you stale with you current one? Are you happy with your massive 315 bench? Are your biceps thunderous and chest cleavage rivaling that of Jenna Jameson? Can you deadlift with a straight bar?

Jesus H. on a pogo stick. Meatheads and freaks need only reply?? If that was not a joke on your part - it should have been.


Go to www.crossfit.com - that is supposed to be the end all, be all for firefighers, cops, soldiers, blah, blah, blahs.


disengage: rant
Rudeness level: normal

Thanks for the help.....you must be a huge guy or some idiot with a keyboard. Answer to your question.....bench - never have tried to get it up. Now I am and will be over 375 lbs. in 3 months. DL with straight bar...sure.....or a 66 Caddy if that was what you wanted. Not bad for 183 lbs guy that just started DL 3 months ago. I sure like your pics. and help...piss off.

 

[FFQuads]

FF, it isn't so much the program or the layout that is important, and that isn't even the reason that the '5x5' info. is posted on this site. The important thing is that the compound lifts improve and you eat enough calories. You start all of your days with a big lift, and probably train it progressively, meaning using more weight for the same sets/reps....or more sets/reps with the same weight. Thats how you progress. Thats how everybody progresses. You seem to be doing that now, which is why you have come a ways with your training.

In my opinion, all the extra accessory work done simply for the sake of doing it is not necessary and is a waste of time. In strength training (the 5x5 is just 1 example of a solid layout) the assistance is cut down and only used if and when weaknesses arise in lifters who can no longer progress linearly. The rest of the days are spent adding frequency to the big lifts, whether it be for 'practice' or for upping weekly/monthly workload. Instead of spending time on things that really don't make you big and strong and only are a little bit of metabolic work and comprise maybe .001% of your gains (leg extensions, flyes, lateral raises, crossovers etc etc), the idea is to train movements and not bodyparts and fill in time spent training fluff stuff with more frequency on the big lifts, getting better at big lifts means more muscle. Thats the idea in a nutshell.

If you're happy with you're progress and you feel you are still progressing, then no need changing what isn't broken, if curiosity is getting the better of you and you have no problem making some changes, try it, it certainly won't hurt you, and training in that manner certainly packs on muscle, naturally, to athletes all over the world.

One thing I can guarantee you is this : You have gotten the results you have from improving your bench, squat, deadlift, and military press.....you'd be surprised at how little of a role the lateral raises, flyes, arm workouts etc played.

Good info...thanks. I am on the edge of changing to the 5x5 workout but it's just hard to change sometimes. I think I might like it and I have a good feeling I might be over training as is. Thanks...

 

[FFQuads]

Just to add to what Biggt said:

If your program is working - don't touch it until it doesn't.

The best way to verify progress is a benchmark core lift(s). Is your best set of X on the squat, bench, row, dead, overhead better now than it was some time ago. This is how you tell whether something worked or not.

Bottom line, people swap exercises and rep ranges around all the time and play the acclimation and reacclimation game, if you change something or lifts and it is fundamentally effective it will impact the core lift performance when you go back to it. So for example, you squat 350x5 and then drop or minimize squatting for a bit and work on your leg press and all kinds of other stuff increasing their weight over 4-6 weeks. The telltale sign of progress is in moving back to the squat and after a few weeks of reacclimation improving that best set of 5 performance by some margin. If that doesn't happen - guess what, you are spinning your wheels and creating the illusion of progress but simply acclimating, deacclimating, and reacclimating to different means of training.

So if that's happening and your core lifts routinely move north with predictability and rate, good enough. All programming is just a means of going about adding weight to the bar. The whole 5x5 thing is just teaching training theory and programming and how it changes and adapts with the trainee at various points of experience. I don't see much programming or application going on in your example but honestly if the end result is being accomplished - whatever is happening is good enough and you seem to be happy with it. If you get bored or eventually stall out, maybe try something else. If you wanted to get an understanding in advance there's a ton of info on my site, maybe spend some time reading the "essential" marked training theory subjects. You'll get more out of that than reading BBing boards for years and you'll be ready to apply some of it when your programing does eventually stall out. That would be the most optimal use of your time and you'll be able to see exactly what is going on in the two sample 5x5 programs that is putting this to work. But do remember, there is no golden program - there is only progression and methods of going about getting it that may or may not be effective for a given trainee at a given point in time at a given experience level. http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

Well said. I'm starting a bulking cycle in about 40 days and will be trying for the first time to truely bring my max(s) up on core lifts. In the past I have always lifted well and made good gains but I really have never tried to get really strong.....I think it's time. BB has always been my goal and the strength I have has just come with it. Now I will be working on strength as well!

 

[Madcow2]

Very simply, a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. The adaptation you are looking for is a stronger muscle and it is induced by increased demands on the body's muscular system. Granted, we aren't talking pure neural demands but....yeah - we are talking strength performance and capacity just not 1RM or ultra heavy triples and doubles (and these are still good for hypertrophy, the issue is you can't do enough volume with them or withstand those types of efforts on a consistent basis - think Westside powerlifters rotating max effort lifts and all of the supplemental workload they do in 50-80% range).

So, strength is still the key to increasing muscle - don't think it's not, we just don't want to devote all of our training to the extreme end of the spectrum (even dedicated powerlifting programs don't except perhaps immediately preceding competition adn that's generally to peak specific strength while allowing the body to recover from fatigue induced from earlier training).

However, don't think that neural factors in pure strength and nervous system efficiency are totally separate from hypertrophy . Progressive loading is the key to hypertrophy but enhancing neural efficiency can facilitate this process to a very significant degree. Think about Newbie gains and this is the key right here, rapidly developing neural capacity driving progressive loads and hypertrophy. Multiple sets of 5 reps tend to wind up around 80-85% and this is a good area that handles hypertrophy and neural components as well as significant overall tonnage with 25 reps. Basically you want to increase the weights over a period, the best way to do this is to leverage neural factors as well as that new muscle you are building which results in the ability to continue progression well past the point and for longer than where pure incremental muscle gain might take you. The net result = more muscle.

In a sense, the fastest path between 2 points is not always a straight line as obtacles often materialize that are best skirted around rather than bored through. Even someone interested in pure hypertrophy should be including significant emphasis on the neural component in their long term plans. This is also why a high volume low intensity (%1RM) plan works wonders for hypertrophy after a lower volume higher intensity phase. It is not that either of these regimines are golden program but merely that it is faster to tack into the wind covering more distance rather than trying to sail straight into it and making very slow progress.

So when you see '5x5' here or people using that style of program and training, this is really the jist. They are not doing it because it's a golden program, but they are systemactically increasing their capacities on the core lifts. It is the system and methodology that is the difference between a program and a routine where one just goes into the gym, does some stuff, and hopes to get better for it. Working hard is nice but working smart makes sure all that hard work is in the right direction. First set up a smart reasonable plan then work hard at it. If hard work is 5 steps than you are likely getting 4-5 steps forward if you bust your ass. If you just work hard at random stuff without a good plan, you get 1 back, 2 left, and 2 forward for a single step forward net. So someone working less hard but very smart may still outpace you if all of his 2 steps are forward.

That is the proper understanding. But basically, get big lifts up and eat to move the scale.

 

[FFQuads]

Very simply, a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. The adaptation you are looking for is a stronger muscle and it is induced by increased demands on the body's muscular system. Granted, we aren't talking pure neural demands but....yeah - we are talking strength performance and capacity just not 1RM or ultra heavy triples and doubles (and these are still good for hypertrophy, the issue is you can't do enough volume with them or withstand those types of efforts on a consistent basis - think Westside powerlifters rotating max effort lifts and all of the supplemental workload they do in 50-80% range).

So, strength is still the key to increasing muscle - don't think it's not, we just don't want to devote all of our training to the extreme end of the spectrum (even dedicated powerlifting programs don't except perhaps immediately preceding competition adn that's generally to peak specific strength while allowing the body to recover from fatigue induced from earlier training).

However, don't think that neural factors in pure strength and nervous system efficiency are totally separate from hypertrophy . Progressive loading is the key to hypertrophy but enhancing neural efficiency can facilitate this process to a very significant degree. Think about Newbie gains and this is the key right here, rapidly developing neural capacity driving progressive loads and hypertrophy. Multiple sets of 5 reps tend to wind up around 80-85% and this is a good area that handles hypertrophy and neural components as well as significant overall tonnage with 25 reps. Basically you want to increase the weights over a period, the best way to do this is to leverage neural factors as well as that new muscle you are building which results in the ability to continue progression well past the point and for longer than where pure incremental muscle gain might take you. The net result = more muscle.

In a sense, the fastest path between 2 points is not always a straight line as obtacles often materialize that are best skirted around rather than bored through. Even someone interested in pure hypertrophy should be including significant emphasis on the neural component in their long term plans. This is also why a high volume low intensity (%1RM) plan works wonders for hypertrophy after a lower volume higher intensity phase. It is not that either of these regimines are golden program but merely that it is faster to tack into the wind covering more distance rather than trying to sail straight into it and making very slow progress.

So when you see '5x5' here or people using that style of program and training, this is really the jist. They are not doing it because it's a golden program, but they are systemactically increasing their capacities on the core lifts. It is the system and methodology that is the difference between a program and a routine where one just goes into the gym, does some stuff, and hopes to get better for it. Working hard is nice but working smart makes sure all that hard work is in the right direction. First set up a smart reasonable plan then work hard at it. If hard work is 5 steps than you are likely getting 4-5 steps forward if you bust your ass. If you just work hard at random stuff without a good plan, you get 1 back, 2 left, and 2 forward for a single step forward net. So someone working less hard but very smart may still outpace you if all of his 2 steps are forward.

That is the proper understanding. But basically, get big lifts up and eat to move the scale.

Great post!