questions about my program, lots of questions, lots of numbers

[the koala]

greetings, before i start i quess some introduction is necessary

i'm not new to the board but i treat it as a source of information and therefore spend most of the time reading

personally, i'm from europe which presents the first problem, i know you guys here mostly calculate in .lbs, but i'm used to kilograms, and i hope you don't mind if i write my numbers and stuff in kgs

whith that said - i weigh around 80kgs, bench - 92,5kg; squat 117,5kg; deadlift 147,5kg

i know the basic principles of westside and of periodization,
during the summer i read pavel tsatsouline's book 'power to the people' and more or less took a programm from there

my schedule is:
sat - bench
sun - squat
tue - bench
thr - squat

bench workout:
benchpress 5x5, after the first set i go down 5kgs, after the second set i go down 5kgs again and then do the remaining 3 sets (i.e. 70kg x 5, 65x5, 60x5 60x5 60x5)
close grips 5x5 (like benchpress)
db incline bench 3sets of 8 reps
some tric assistance
lat

squat:
squat 5x5 (like benchpress - set - 5down -5down -3remainig sets)
rack pulls 5x5
some lower back assistance if i have the strength
abs

i do the bench and squat workout twice a week, and the next week i add 2,5kgs on bench and squat
when i can't do 5 reps no longer i go down to 3, then to 1

that's my program
now here's my problem
i started this program in summer - my bench was stuck at 80 kgs, after 8 weeks i got 92,5kgs -> of course i was pumped,
now there i think lies my first mistake, after the 8 weeks where over i didn't make a break, but went down to 70kgs on the bench and started the periodization all over again

today i should've benched 77,5kgs x 5reps on bench, i got it with _all_ i had in me (and i bet during the 5th rep my ass wasn't really on the bench anymore....) which troubles me because if i can't reproduce 77,5 on saturday i go down to the 3 rep scheme already, but in summer i could do 82,5 for 5 reps... which would mean a major decrease - 5kgs

the question i have now is:
after you complete your periodization cycle - do you take some time off?
am i doing too much assistance on bench days?
should i focus more on compound movements on bench days than assistance and therefore in the end to less work?
should i change the 'big lift' after i completed a cycle - like from flatbench to incline?

my squat is going along niceley, because i'm squatting, rack pulling, abs and i'm outta there, but with bench i tons of different stuff,...

what's my fault?

thanks for reading and i guess that i explained my stuff all to complicated but i hope you guys can help me nonetheless

thanks in advance,

 

[Phreezer_Machine]

It could be that you are overtrained. It could be that you have been focusing too much on bench alone. Do you bench in a shirt? Do you use Bands on benching for your DE days (using Bands too often for Upperbody can really tear you up)...

Do you flat bench each week? Do you do extra Tricep work? etc...

Have you done the exact same workout week in and week out that you posted above without any variations or change up of ME exercises?

 

[the koala]

yeah, overtraining,... thought about that too....

it could be that i didn't explain accurately, i do not train westside style, i just chose my training days like it, i follow a very very simple periodization schedule (starting with 5 reps until they get heavy, then 3, then 1 rep until i fail - periodization cycle complete - restart)

no, i don't use a shirt and i don't use bands, although i have them, but i know that they tear you up bad if not used with best knowlege (which i don't have even without bands ), and at my current numbers i guess i get along without 'em niceley enough

yeah, i flatbench twice a week, with the same weight, and the following week i move up 2,5kgs (i.e. sat - 70kg tue - 70kg next week: 72,5kg etc.)

and i work with 5reps until i cannot get them anymore, then 3, then 1 until i fail

after flat bench i do close grips (sometimes with boards sometimes to the chest) and then some triceps assistance like skullcrushers and such

and yes, in summer i did bench for 8 weeks - worked up to my one rep max
and then started all over again at weight i could do for ten reps - flat bench again

thanks in advance,

 

[Devastation]

what you are doing is called basic overload. it may work for the first 6 mos to a year and then it will stop. you need to be more conscience of how many reps you are doing at a certain percent of your 1rm. any more and the work will be counterproductive. in my opinion what you are doing is a waste. flat benching with the same weight 2x a week, you should have already lost some strength. you should focus your time doing different accessory exercises and maxing only one day a week, with a different exercise. make some boards for benching to help you mix things up and set a record on each board and try and break it after 3 or 4 weeks of doing something else. same with the chains. wait on the bands for a while. same goes for squat. you should be aware of what reps with a certain weight you should be doing. try doing a simple pendulem wave for 3 weeks on the squat, while maxing on a different exercise each week which can include rack pulls. there is so many exercises out there to benefit you, why are you limiting yourself to only 2? and yes i read you so skull crushes and what not, but that isn't what i'm getting at

bottom line is, are you doing this to kill time, or do you want to get stronger? align your priorities with your goals

 

[the koala]

thanks alot devestation, greatly appreciated

of course i want to get stronger,

i hope i got you right there, by pendulum wave you mean that i should focus on an exercise, do it once a week, and over to course of a three week period work up to a new personal best?

which means, that for example if i choose, let's say squats - i start at a weight, define a rep range, and work up to the maximum weight i can do within that rep range, and over the course of three weeks i try to increase weight?
then i choose the next excercise?

i know that the westside recommendation for beginners is like that - 3 weeks - one excercise - establish 1rep max - change exercise

i tried westside once, and of course i made lots of mistakes, but the main problem was that after that 8 weeks i felt really banged up from all the ME days (probably to a large degree because my form back then was aweful under max weights)
and given the fact that my numbers aren't really heaven sent i thought that i should build up a good base before trying westside

another thing is that, as i said i read pavel tsatsoulines book where i was stated that you body won't adapt to an exercise below a duration of 6 weeks....

if i may repeat, as far as i understood (please correct me if i'm wrong), you recommend doing 3 week pendulum wave + assistance work; and the assistance work is changed every workout
right?
so basically i'm lifting two times a week then?

(i think i'm in the middle of something dave tate once wrote in one of his articles, i read so many stuff that now i have no idea how to implement it....)

thanks in advance

 

[Devastation]

there is a lot of information to digest and it will take many months if not years to digest and fully understand everything, i'm on my way but far from understanding some of the more complex formulas and training patterns. HOWEVER, i believe you have a solid setup for your timing between training days. except change your one bench workout to more of a shoulder day for your beginning purposes. next, one squat day should be a speed day, this is where you implement your pendulam wave. first find out what your one rep max is in the squat. then implement a wave as follows:

week 1: 50% of 1rm for 12 sets of 2
week 2: 55% of 1rm for 12 sets of 2
week 3: 60% of 1rm for 10 sets of 2

your second squat workout of the week should involve you trying to set a pr on some type of squat like movement, whether it be your good mornings or any of the many variations, a high box squat, kneeling squat, rack pulls, deadlifts, you could have your ME exercise as some form of a glute ham raise for reps or weights. but pick something you can set a benchmark to and then try and outperform your previous best. you may feel beat up after 3 mos but take a week off, it's hard and i'm guilty of not resting enough, but over time your body will adapt to the workload

one final note, do some upper back work - rows, pulldowns, pullups, etc at the beginning of your leg days. it's a good warmup and you can work your back effectively twice a week

keep asking questions if you have any, there is lots of help available here

 

[the koala]

ah, i see

which would lead me directly to a westside-style training, with a ME/DE bench day and a ME/DE squat day


some things about westside i don't understand are:

i'm far from claiming that i have a solid base, would westside be still a style of training for me?

the squat-pendulum wave, which goes out from a one rep max,... do you simply go back to 50% after week three, basically the same weight you did three weeks before?


with speed-bench you just take 60% in my case (because my max is without shirt) and stay at that for 8 weeks right?

after 8 weeks you go for a new pr in bench/sqt/deadlift right?

you do assistance work after ME as well as DE right?
how can you make sure that you don't use too much volume on assistance? (how many exercises to pick?)
like it is recommended in the westside-basics for bench to do assitance in that order: tric - lat - (upper back) - rear delts
do you just take one exercise for each of those bodyparts and do like 4-5 sets?


should i quit my momentary training-schedule (i'm in the middle of it) and start the new one (without a break)?

alot of questions,...
thanks in advance,

 

[Devastation]

the speed bench ws idea is up to you. i personally don't do it, ultimately you will have to decide for yourself what is right for you

and at some point, if this is what you want to do, you will have to switch over to the new template

for the assistance work, do it after both me and de workouts, my assistance work usually varies to some degree as to what exercises or reps/weights i may use

as said before you, have to find what works for you, my back workout is done immediately before my me & de sq days, even though the westside template says after bench. remember westide is an evolving set of ideas, not static and set in stone. find what works for you, this will take much time with trial and error along the way

as far as the squat pendulum, you may return to the 50% the following cycle or you could change the % and include chains or bands if you have them. but after the second cycle, you may want to try to do a max squat on your me day to see what your new max is. then readjust

bench i bench heavy and do a modified metal militia workout with an occasional zero momentum day thrown in (this is more advanced). but cycling thru ME day exercises on your bench day is good. as i said before on your other "bench day" forgo bench and do shoulders - just my own recommendation.

work your weaknesses first

 

[the koala]

so, basically i could set it up like this:

ME squat:
squat-like excercise - work up to a max whereas the max needn't be a 1rm (i.e. 5x5 good mornings for three weeks?)
assistance work for lower back, glutes, hams, abs

ME - bench day:
bench-like excercise - same as above
assistance work for triceps, lats, read delts,

DE squat day:
pendulum wave
assistance

2nd bench day:
focusing on shoulder (but no maximum effort for shoulder) or speed

for squat-assistance, could i do some form of good mornings or rack pulls at 70% for 5x5? because i don't have access to a reverse hyper or a ghr...

 

[Devastation]

i would stay away from 5x5 for powerlifting

instead work up to a 3 rep max on gm's or rack deads for assistance

you can still do pull thru's on low pulley device or if you have an average strength band for glutes and hams

also learn to read what your body says about when it's time to switch exercises, you will go flat and need to change. 2 weeks sometimes will be enough for an exercise