The old and the new (Workouts) need some suggestions.

[Valdez]

Thanks to anyone who offers me some advice.
I am 20 yr old lifting hard for 2 years 5'7" 205@10% bf (do not use gear)
First off, I know that these are the exercises that work for me. I prefer a variety of exercises with less sets per exercise. I used to do a 4 day split mon, tue, thur, fri. Now I want to do a 3 day push/pull/legs split: 1 day on, 1 day off.

I will post my old workout in bold, please just offer suggestions only on the new one unless you have questions about why I did certain things in the old one.

Workout #1- Pull
day off
Workout #2- Push
day off
Workout #3- Legs
day off
repeat

Warmup sets are not indicated, only working sets. Warmup usually consists of 1-3 light sets of 4-10 reps for the sole purpose of getting blood in the muscle, once pumped and warmed up 1st set it is a medium weight “feel” set never to failure on almost every movement. Drop sets and forced reps are often implemented on certain exercises, I will usually pick one exercise a day to go really intense on (beyond initial failure)

Pull (Back, Hams, Rear Delts, Bi’s)
2x chin-ups to failure
2x pull-down 10, 8
2x hammer strength hi-row 10, 6
1x barbell row 8
1x t-bar row 6-8
2x cable row 10, 6-8
1x barbell curl 12
2x incline db curl 8, 6-7
2x stiff leg deadlift 12, 10
3x lying leg curl 10, 8, 6
3x barbell shrugs 12, 10, 6-8
2x db shrugs 12, 10
1x rear db laterals
3x reverse pec-deck 10, 8, 5-7

Push (Chest, Shoulders, Tris)
3x incline BB or DB press 12, 10, 6-8
2x flat hammer strength press/DB press 12, 10
2x reverse grip bench/weighted dips 10, 6-8
3x cable flyes 12, 10, 6-8
1x military press 10
2x db side laterals 10, 8
2x machine side laterals 8, 6-8
2x french press 8-10, 6-8
2x cable push-downs 12, 8
1x one arm reverse cable pushdowns 8

Legs (Quads, Calves)
4x standing calf raises/donkey calf raises 15, 12, 10, 8
3x seated calf raises 20, 15, 12
* stretch and take 5 min rest
5x ATF barbell squats 20, 15, 10, 10, 8
3x hack squats/leg press 11, 9, 6
1x leg extensions [10/6/6/4] *triple drop-set

I know that my pull day is a too long, but I love working back and doing a variety of stuff!? I think my push day is looking pretty good and my legs day is perfect. the main reason why I want to do my hams on pull day is because my lower back is just too damn sore if I do SLDL on leg day and then I can't lift as heavy on back day(I feel that SLDL is necessary for hamstring development)


---------------------------------------------
Monday- Chest Shoulders Tris
*pec dec 1 set of 8 reps, 6 forced reps, drop the weight to 60% 5-6 reps to failure again, then 6-8 forced reps, drop the weight again by 50% 6-8 reps to failure then 6-8 forced reps. Yes this is about 30 reps, 24 of them being beyond initial failure to pre-fatigue the chest. Now the workout begins
Incline Bench press: 12, 10
Incline Flye's: 7, 6
wieghted dips: 10, 5
Cable flyes supersetted with pushups to absolute failure (not even 1 pushup on the knees can be done): 10, 8
Side laterals: 12, 10, 8, 6 (be strict)
French press: 10, 8
Cable pushdowns: 10, 8
1 arm reverse pressdowns: 8

Tuesday- Quads Hamstrings

Barbell squats (ATF): 12, 12, 10, 8
Hacks or Leg press: 12,10,8,6
SLDL: 10,8
Leg curl: 10,8,10
Wed: OFF, rest

Thur- Back Biceps

M. grip pulldowns: 12,10
pullovers (machine): 12,10
barbell rows: 12,10,8
EZ curl underhand barbell rows: 10,8
cable rows: 12,10,*8 (triple drop set, lower the weight and continue to pump out at least 6 reps on each drop going to failure)
Incline seat curls: 12,10
*barbell curls: 10... drop the weight by 60% and do 6-10 more reps to failure and have a partner assist you with 6 more reps beyond failure.

Friday- Calves, rear delts, traps

Standing calf raise or donkey calf raise: 20, 15, 12, 10, *8 triple drop set...
Seated calf raise: 15,12,10
your calves will cramp and it will be painful.
Dumbell shrugs: 15 warmup
Barbell shrugs: 12,10,8,15
Dumbell shrug: 12, 10
Dumbell rear laterals (very very strict) 15,12,12,10,8
reverse pec deck: 12,8
Weekend off.
It's a tough but simple, short and sweet workout. get out of the gym in under 60 minutes


[This message has been edited by Valdez (edited April 15, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Valdez (edited April 23, 2001).]

 

[Robboe]

I will make comments about your routine a bit later but i'm in a rush and have to go to work, but what i will ask is why you are changing your routine? have you stopped gaining on your present one? are you bored of your current one and want a change?

If you have stopped gaining, have you checked to make sure your diet is perfect?

 

[Robboe]

Ok, i apologise, i am pushed for time again, so i will just say what i have to say about your new routine. I see it is early there so you haven't had a chance to reply to my question. Never the less...

Firstly, the split looks fine. I used to do that.

Here's where i ask you some questions:

a) Why so many rowing movements? Have you ever thought of redundency? A back workout only really needs to consist of a vertical row (chin/pull up), a horizontal row (barbell row, T bar row, cable row, one armed row etc...) and a power movement (deads). Chose the row you find most effective or prefer the most and do 2-3 sets of that. Get rid of the rest. get rid of the pull down - pull ups/chins are best. Do 2-3 sets of chins.

Doing hams on your pull day is fine if that's what you want. Do hams before biceps, or you may find tired biceps limit the weight you can do on SLDL's.

Bicep routine is good. Very similar to mine. Make sure you use a straight bar and not an EZ bar (unless you have problems with your wrists - supsinated wrists are best for building the biceps).

Chose one trap exercise over the other, the one you prefer most. For me it's the DB shrug, but it also comes down to personal preference. I would advice the DB shrug. After deads, 2 sets is sufficient.

For rear lats, chose one exercise over the other. persoanl preference again. You do not need 4 sets for rear deltiods. They aren't that big. 2 will suffice.

For chest, get rid of flyes. 7 sets os enough for chest.
For side laterals, chose one exercise over the other. Do 2 sets. That is all.

The reverse cable pushdowns are unnecessary, especially 1 set. But if you insist. I would however, suggest you get rid of it.

Do squats before calves. Tired calves can limit your squats poundage.

Either reduce sets of squats or get rid of hacks.

Your calf rouitne looks ok. Although it seems alot for such a small muscle group, the calfs are very tough and can handle a lot of stress. I persoanlly only do 4 sets for calves however.

Go to failure on every set.

 

[Valdez]

Originally posted by Robboe:
Ok, i apologise, i am pushed for time again, so i will just say what i have to say about your new routine. I see it is early there so you haven't had a chance to reply to my question. Never the less...

Firstly, the split looks fine. I used to do that.

Here's where i ask you some questions:

a) Why so many rowing movements? Have you ever thought of redundency? A back workout only really needs to consist of a vertical row (chin/pull up), a horizontal row (barbell row, T bar row, cable row, one armed row etc...) and a power movement (deads). Chose the row you find most effective or prefer the most and do 2-3 sets of that. Get rid of the rest. get rid of the pull down - pull ups/chins are best. Do 2-3 sets of chins.

Yeah it is a little redundant. I think I'll cut out T-bar or BB rows. I would like to keep one free weight row with the cables.

Doing hams on your pull day is fine if that's what you want. Do hams before biceps, or you may find tired biceps limit the weight you can do on SLDL's.

Bicep routine is good. Very similar to mine. Make sure you use a straight bar and not an EZ bar (unless you have problems with your wrists - supsinated wrists are best for building the biceps). incline db's are the best when the back is out of energy. and I hear you on the straight bar!
Choose one trap exercise over the other, the one you prefer most. For me it's the DB shrug, but it also comes down to personal preference. I would advice the DB shrug. After deads, 2 sets is sufficient.
About the shrugs: my gym's dumbells only go up to 110's # so I am not able to go to failure with a low enough rep range. I usually do BB with 365lbs then 405lbs then I do two sets of DB's with 110's. I would prefer to omit BB shrugs as I don't find them as effective.

For rear lats, chose one exercise over the other. persoanl preference again. You do not need 4 sets for rear deltiods. They aren't that big. 2 will suffice.

For chest, get rid of flyes. 7 sets os enough for chest.
For side laterals, chose one exercise over the other. Do 2 sets. That is all.
my front delts are very large and overpowering, the flyes are absolutely necessary for chest. the main reason I do the dips and reverse g. bench is for my triceps because they require chest power is why I do them first. I have a lot of trouble isolating my chest, my delts usually take most of the work. for side laterals: this is the area of the deltoid I'm trying to work on the most! they are lagging behind. the advice you gave on this is really good I just felt that I should explain a little where I'm coming from.

The reverse cable pushdowns are unnecessary, especially 1 set. But if you insist. I would however, suggest you get rid of it.

Do squats before calves. Tired calves can limit your squats poundage. I always tend to go a little half-ass on my calves if I do them after quads, they do seem to limit my strength... I used to do them on a completely different day and with the 3 day that's just not possible. My legs I consider to be my strong point in my physique. I would like to get my calves up to 18" (are 17-17.5 now) as my quads are 27.5-28" with a pump.

Either reduce sets of squats or get rid of hacks.

Your calf rouitne looks ok. Although it seems alot for such a small muscle group, the calfs are very tough and can handle a lot of stress. I persoanlly only do 4 sets for calves however.

Go to failure on every set.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the 'suggestions' ... I'm glad you understand that I wasn't flaming you in that other post.

 

[Cackerot69]

You asked, you shall recieve

First of all, i would put legs together, quads, hams, and calves.

Robboe pretty much nailed it...but i have a few things to say.

I think you should keep the flyes in your routine, on many people their weak links give out long before the chest, so the chest needs direct stimulation, in the form of a flye, crossover, pec dec, whichever you prefer.

Also, there is no need for an incline press and a flat press, both work the same part of the chest.

As Robboe pointed out, drop the 1 set of reverse cable pushdowns.

In conclusion, the routine looks 'OK', i really think you could benefit from just focusing on the basic compound lifts...instead of the huge variety of exercises you perform.

two different kinds of Side Laterals is redundant.

 

[Valdez]

bump.

 

[Valdez]

I did the push workout today and it went perfect!! the 1 arm cable pushdowns stay, and the dumbell + the machine laterals are most definetly not redundant, I had a great workout. It felt like my shoulders, chest, and tri's were all equally stimulated.

I can't wait to try the pull workout, cause I know that'll need some revision.

any more opinions?

 

[BigAndy69]

Personally, I would remove the T-bar rows and choose between cable rows and Hammer strengh rows. I would add 1 set of Barbell curls and and 1 set of barbell rows.

I don't really like your chest workout. I would do 4-5XIncline BB presses, followed by 2Xflat bench db flyes, 1Xdips, and 2Xflat dumbbell presses(high reps), you could also add the 1-2Xcable flyes. Do this in this distinct order. This has really worked for me and others I've helped. Give it a try. I realise that your chest is a weakness and your shoulders are too strong, that's why you should pre-exhaust them with a couple of sets of db flyes(20 reps).

Why not train hams on Leg day?

Just my opinion.

 

[Valdez]

Pull (Back, Hams, Rear Delts, Bi’s)
2x chin-ups to failure
2x pull-down 10, 8
2x hammer strength hi-row 10, 6-7
2x barbell row/t-bar row 8-10, 6-7
2x cable row 10, 6-8
1x barbell curl 12
2x incline db curl 8, 6-7
2x stiff leg deadlift 12, 10
3x lying leg curl 10, 8, 6
3x barbell shrugs 12, 10, 6-8
2x db shrugs 12, 10
1x rear db laterals
3x reverse pec-deck 10, 8, 5-7

Push (Chest, Shoulders, Tris)
3x incline BB or DB press 12, 10, 6-8
2x flat hammer strength press/DB press 12, 10
2x reverse grip bench/weighted dips 10, 6-8
3x cable flyes 12, 10, 6-8
1x military press 10
2x db side laterals 10, 8
2x machine side laterals 8, 6-8
2x overhead DB ext./french press 8-10, 6-8
2x cable push-downs 12, 8
1x one arm reverse cable pushdowns 8

Legs (Quads, Calves)
4x standing calf raises/donkey calf raises 15, 12, 10, 8
3x seated calf raises 20, 15, 12
* stretch and take 5 min rest
4x ATF barbell squats 15, 10, 10, 8
3x hack squats/leg press 11, 9, 6
1x leg extensions [10/6/6/4] *triple drop-set

I have made some very minor adjustments. the push workout went great as I said and my shoulders, chest and tris are all equally sore so I think I will keep it the same.

Pull day is tomorrow so I will make whatever adjustments then. I decided to do either T-bar or barbell rows and just do 2 sets instead of one each. the cable rows stay, I may remove the hammer strength rows (most likely not) and I will try biceps before hams so I don't lose my bicep pump.

the reason I do hams on back day is because I must do SLDL for hams and it gets my lower back to sore to do a proper back workout in the same week.

what rep range do you guys use on SLDL for hams? I'm very strong on deadlifts so maybe I should do slightly higher reps so I don't fry my lower back so bad. I usually do 315 for 12 reps to failure and 365 to 7-9 reps to failure and sometimes I'll do a third set of 405 with 4-5 reps to failure

 

[Valdez]

YIKES!! pull day is too hard and too long, was not working, I did the whole workout omitting traps and it was still too tuff. it's the SLDL, they drain soo much stamina. this. this is what I'm thinking for the next pull day (I'm not ready to give up on hams just yet on pull day.) no way my lower back will hold up for shrugs after SLDL so I'll just nail traps first and get them the heck out of the way. I do abs between sets for lower back and hamstrings to even out the mid-section stress

this is the revised copy:

Pull (Back, Hams, Rear Delts, Bi’s)
2x barbell shrugs 10, 6-8
2x db shrugs 12, 10
2x chin-ups to failure
2x pull-down 10, 8
2x hammer strength low row/t-bar row 8, 6
2x cable row 10, 6-8
1x 1 arm DB curl/machine row 12
1x barbell curl 12
2x incline db curl 8, 6-7
2x stiff leg deadlift 12, 10
2x weighted crunches
3x lying leg curl 10, 8, 6
2x weighted crunches
1x rear db laterals
2x reverse pec-deck 8, 6

can't wait to try it. if it's still too tuff SLDL and hams are just gonna have to go on leg day.