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NeW StYlE - WuT u ThInK?

I'll go a step further and be flat out honest without holding back. This isn't directed at you by any means but it's a good long rant and an explantion that's a bit less PC than usual for me but might prove beneficial because I'll just lay it on the line and tell it like it is.

The typical split routines that have people training a bodypart once per week are shit - I would basically just recommend that everyone stop them right now and move on. They are so fundementally bad that it's not worth typing up an explanation for them - the whole reason why people arrived at this idea was because they didn't understand science and misapplied thinking that muscles needed to fully recover before training them again (look up the timeframe for complete tissue remodeling from a single bout of weight training - it's beyond a month as I recall but in any event it is far far longer than any of these splits allows for). These splits are a major reason why most people in the gym are spinning their wheels.

The other major issue is that most guys put together their split, choose exercises, and then just go in the gym and work hard at it (and some don't even do that) - even using the 5x5 exercises and split as laid out under the 3 day protocol that I recommend (basically the best exercises and a solid frequency pattern) there is a major issue that will inhibit gains. The issue is that volume and intensity are not being regulated over a period to provide a training stimulus - this is the essence of loading/deloading and managing volume under dual factor theory which I will say again is at the near universal acceptance level everywhere in the world at the highest levels of research and athletic coaching but curiously most BBers couldn't give and explanation should their life depend on it.

For a novice lifter this isn't a big deal, for an experienced lifter - they just won't progress or at least no where close to optimally and once they get past a point even that progress will stop. Basically, the only way an experienced lifter is going to get gains is to use drugs and create an environment where just about any stimulus will work because the body's response is so exagerated. That said, even the drugged lifter would progress much faster (or could use a lower dosage and achieve the same results) under a proper program.

Look at the popularity of Needsize's 5x5 program. It uses good exercises albeit the 3 day split is present but the whole key is the progressive overload and systematically adding weight thereby increasing total volume. Also notice that stepping back and beginning again serves to deload. This is why people have success with it. There is no magic, it's basically just a rough form of dual factor training that he arrived at by paying attention to what worked over a period of time. If more people were applying some brain power basic training methodology wouldn't be so foreign.

It kills me that the majority of the BBing/fitness world is so advanced when it comes to drug usage and diet yet so far behind when it comes to training. Yes I've had training conversations with multiple pros and worked for months right next to a guy who got his pro card just a few months later - he was unfit to coach a highschool team, his PT clients made shit for progress, his training was no better or more intense than many others at the gym 1/2 his size - his diet/dedication was admirable but if not for the drugs he'd be just another shmoe around the gym wondering why he's plateaued. He's not an exception to the rule either, anyone who knows training and watches the vast majority of Pro BBers train knows they don't know anything in about 10 minutes and usually much faster. If they open their mouths on the subject it's nearly instantaneous. Shit, look at the 1980's BBers training on nearly all machines and not squatting or DLing. They looked marvelous, way better than in the previous decade yet the training stimuli was garbage in comparison - the only difference were the dosages.

EDIT: Okay, I do give props to Chris Duffy (pro back in the early 1990's for getting people to DL again by speaking out a lot on its effectiveness).

BBing is almost totally focused on optimizing and increasing the response (drugs/diet) rather than ensuring that the highest quality stimulus (training) is applied. This is why kids and men get frustrated after tweaking their diets and taking all kinds of supplements yet getting little gains - they look at the programs some of the big guys are using and their's are not much different so they look to drugs and make some post like "I'm plateaued at 6' 185lbs after 2 years of training, diet and training are perfect, help me plan a cycle." I'm certainly not going to judge someone for using roids and I myself have used them but a lot of younger guys just want to see some progress, they may want 20lbs but if they were at least progressing consistently they'd have more patience and likely wouldn't be as quick to involve themselves in activities that could cause major issues in their lives down the road. Some will certainly still use drugs but I'd venture the proportion would be quite a bit less and hopefully those who have aspirations beyond what natural training can provide.

The issue is that good training informaiton is simply not common and seems almost hidden. Most guys at Elite can probably tell you a ton about drugs/diet but ask them to explain dual factor theory or name a good book on training (hint: Arnold has not written one) and they are going to be lost - and that's simply an unacceptable imbalance to my mind. I don't know how training knowledge got obscured and glossed over for a few decades (I imagine the Nautilus machine crap, the near extinction of Olympic Lifting, and the white washed clean faux image of BBing that Weider has promoted to death over the years) but I'm a bit tired of honest people looking for training info and finding voodoo bullshit rather than basic fundemental information - I'm not even talking cutting edge here just basic training applied around the world.

So if you ever wonder what purpose I might have in taking the time to write out lengthy posts and fully explain training info and make it digestable and available, this is it. I'm not trying to change the world or clean up BBing but I'd like to see training knowledge in the general population advanced to the point where someone can look for and actually find basic quality information that will allow them to progress. I make no money from this, my line of work is so removed from this it isn't even funny. When I see stuff like that printed in Flex, Muscle&Fitness, and Men's Health - I'll be damn happy and I bet there will be a lot more people making progress in the gym and enjoying the gratification that comes with laying out a plan and accruing results from solid execution.
 
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Madcow you really seem to know your shit!

How do you feel about an Old School type training program. People use to talk about it all the time around here and I just found a link and thought about giving it a go.

Don't know if you're familiar with it but in a nutshell it's a few compound movements, squat, deadlift, Bench, OH Press, BB Row, Dips, BB Curl - 3 day split. You squat twice a week 5X3 on Monday and 5X5 on Friday with the same weight and add 5-10 lbs a week. 20 rep deadlifts on Monday and Wednesday also increasing weight each week with the other lifts thrown in.
 
im excited to try this program (5x5), im starting it in 5 weeks. im not goin into it expecting major gains, but ill be happy with what i get.

im doin good with what im doin now, as far as adding weight to exercises.

im pretty sure this routine is gonna make me feel like am unstoppable tank. :)
 
Madcow2 said:
I'll go a step further and be flat out honest without holding back. This isn't directed at you by any means but it's a good long rant and an explantion that's a bit less PC than usual for me but might prove beneficial because I'll just lay it on the line and tell it like it is.

The typical split routines that have people training a bodypart once per week are shit - I would basically just recommend that everyone stop them right now and move on. They are so fundementally bad that it's not worth typing up an explanation for them - the whole reason why people arrived at this idea was because they didn't understand science and misapplied thinking that muscles needed to fully recover before training them again (look up the timeframe for complete tissue remodeling from a single bout of weight training - it's beyond a month as I recall but in any event it is far far longer than any of these splits allows for). These splits are a major reason why most people in the gym are spinning their wheels.

The other major issue is that most guys put together their split, choose exercises, and then just go in the gym and work hard at it (and some don't even do that) - even using the 5x5 exercises and split as laid out under the 3 day protocol that I recommend (basically the best exercises and a solid frequency pattern) there is a major issue that will inhibit gains. The issue is that volume and intensity are not being regulated over a period to provide a training stimulus - this is the essence of loading/deloading and managing volume under dual factor theory which I will say again is at the near universal acceptance level everywhere in the world at the highest levels of research and athletic coaching but curiously most BBers couldn't give and explanation should their life depend on it.

For a novice lifter this isn't a big deal, for an experienced lifter - they just won't progress or at least no where close to optimally and once they get past a point even that progress will stop. Basically, the only way an experienced lifter is going to get gains is to use drugs and create an environment where just about any stimulus will work because the body's response is so exagerated. That said, even the drugged lifter would progress much faster (or could use a lower dosage and achieve the same results) under a proper program.

Look at the popularity of Needsize's 5x5 program. It uses good exercises albeit the 3 day split is present but the whole key is the progressive overload and systematically adding weight thereby increasing total volume. Also notice that stepping back and beginning again serves to deload. This is why people have success with it. There is no magic, it's basically just a rough form of dual factor training that he arrived at by paying attention to what worked over a period of time. If more people were applying some brain power basic training methodology wouldn't be so foreign.

It kills me that the majority of the BBing/fitness world is so advanced when it comes to drug usage and diet yet so far behind when it comes to training. Yes I've had training conversations with multiple pros and worked for months right next to a guy who got his pro card just a few months later - he was unfit to coach a highschool team, his PT clients made shit for progress, his training was no better or more intense than many others at the gym 1/2 his size - his diet/dedication was admirable but if not for the drugs he'd be just another shmoe around the gym wondering why he's plateaued. He's not an exception to the rule either, anyone who knows training and watches the vast majority of Pro BBers train knows they don't know anything in about 10 minutes and usually much faster. If they open their mouths on the subject it's nearly instantaneous. Shit, look at the 1980's BBers training on nearly all machines and not squatting or DLing. They looked marvelous, way better than in the previous decade yet the training stimuli was garbage in comparison - the only difference were the dosages.

EDIT: Okay, I do give props to Chris Duffy (pro back in the early 1990's for getting people to DL again by speaking out a lot on its effectiveness).

BBing is almost totally focused on optimizing and increasing the response (drugs/diet) rather than ensuring that the highest quality stimulus (training) is applied. This is why kids and men get frustrated after tweaking their diets and taking all kinds of supplements yet getting little gains - they look at the programs some of the big guys are using and their's are not much different so they look to drugs and make some post like "I'm plateaued at 6' 185lbs after 2 years of training, diet and training are perfect, help me plan a cycle." I'm certainly not going to judge someone for using roids and I myself have used them but a lot of younger guys just want to see some progress, they may want 20lbs but if they were at least progressing consistently they'd have more patience and likely wouldn't be as quick to involve themselves in activities that could cause major issues in their lives down the road. Some will certainly still use drugs but I'd venture the proportion would be quite a bit less and hopefully those who have aspirations beyond what natural training can provide.

The issue is that good training informaiton is simply not common and seems almost hidden. Most guys at Elite can probably tell you a ton about drugs/diet but ask them to explain dual factor theory or name a good book on training (hint: Arnold has not written one) and they are going to be lost - and that's simply an unacceptable imbalance to my mind. I don't know how training knowledge got obscured and glossed over for a few decades (I imagine the Nautilus machine crap, the near extinction of Olympic Lifting, and the white washed clean faux image of BBing that Weider has promoted to death over the years) but I'm a bit tired of honest people looking for training info and finding voodoo bullshit rather than basic fundemental information - I'm not even talking cutting edge here just basic training applied around the world.

So if you ever wonder what purpose I might have in taking the time to write out lengthy posts and fully explain training info and make it digestable and available, this is it. I'm not trying to change the world or clean up BBing but I'd like to see training knowledge in the general population advanced to the point where someone can look for and actually find basic quality information that will allow them to progress. I make no money from this, my line of work is so removed from this it isn't even funny. When I see stuff like that printed in Flex, Muscle&Fitness, and Men's Health - I'll be damn happy and I bet there will be a lot more people making progress in the gym and enjoying the gratification that comes with laying out a plan and accruing results from solid execution.


Damn brutha.........you could sell ice to the eskimos......you've completely convinced me, so I'm in...if 3 days is what I get, three days it is....I'lll follow your lead, post a log, and follow it to the t......if I can do core work on two of the off days, all the better........the other two with be stretching, light cardio, rest and FOOD.....let's roll.
 
cmdubs said:
Madcow you really seem to know your shit!

How do you feel about an Old School type training program. People use to talk about it all the time around here and I just found a link and thought about giving it a go.

Don't know if you're familiar with it but in a nutshell it's a few compound movements, squat, deadlift, Bench, OH Press, BB Row, Dips, BB Curl - 3 day split. You squat twice a week 5X3 on Monday and 5X5 on Friday with the same weight and add 5-10 lbs a week. 20 rep deadlifts on Monday and Wednesday also increasing weight each week with the other lifts thrown in.

Let me first say that I believe my knowledge of training is decent at best. I understand the basic theories, have a knowledge of just about every exercise out there in BBing/PL/OL (one handed Barbell snatch/C&J being a notable exception but there are few lifters around today that are even aware of them), I can design training programs, peak an athlete for an event, and identify and address weak points in lifts. That's about what I think everyone who is seriously involved in weight training should have at their disposal whether for PL/OL/BBing or athletic performance. There are plenty of guys out there who are so far ahead that I will read any piece that is even associated with their name. Let me put it this way, I know the basics - if I seem to be a major repository of knowledge it is simply due to the profound deficit of training knowledge found around BBing and fitness which is exactly what I am trying to address. If anyone is interested in knowing what sources I look to and respect for information (the list is fairly common with a few personal add-ons) this post gives some details on people, books, sites, etc.. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3

Concerning 'Old School Training', I'm not familiar with the specific program you are refering to but from the looks of it it is doing a number of things right.
1) Concentrating on exercises that really matter and saving limited recuperative ability so that one can tolerate additional volume/frequency in those lifts.
2) It seems to be setup reasonably well - similar to a lot of other general purpose programs (non-sport specific).
3) From the weight increases it seems to be getting at progressive increasing of training load which is fairly essential.

The bones I would pick (and just from your short description as I don't really know the program) would first be the 20 rep DLs. I don't know if they have an actual reason for perscribing something like this and putting it in the methodology but I have a hard time even dreaming a logical reason up. The second issue would be that I like to optimize programs and make the best use of time by compressing the training cycle as much as possible and standard weekly poundage increases tend to be inefficient in my mind. I'd rather load hard in a single block, deload, and get back at it (although it's not always that simple but that's the jist and it's my opinion that this provides the best progress over a fixed period of time). Think of it like a race car driver - they are either hard on the gas or hard on the break for nearly the entire race (the exception is early to mid-point in the corner itself where the car is in balance and they are waiting to mash the gas again).
 
Debaser said:
If there comes a time where people wake up and say,

"Wait a minute, maybe the pros don't know a lot about training. Maybe with 5+ grams of gear, and 8000 calories a day, pretty much the only thing that matters is that they lift weights."

It will never come too soon.

/
 
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JKurz1 said:
Damn brutha.........you could sell ice to the eskimos......you've completely convinced me, so I'm in...if 3 days is what I get, three days it is....I'lll follow your lead, post a log, and follow it to the t......if I can do core work on two of the off days, all the better........the other two with be stretching, light cardio, rest and FOOD.....let's roll.

Sometimes I kind of let it all hang out. Usually I like to be more PC because moderate constant pressure is more effective over time than a single huge barrage but sometimes one has to let it go. There was a lot in that post but I assure you that if you walk into just about any Div1, Pro, or Olympic training facility in this country or the world and have the coaches read it over there won't be disagreement. It really is basic stuff and the acceptance is near universal.

Also, I don't want you to think that the 5x5 is the only way to skin a cat. It's proven very very effective accross a broad range of athletes over decades but more importantly it's an easy to understand and follow example of applied dual factor theory (easy learning combined with the amount of hypertrophy it produces is the whole reason I perscribe it to BBers). This is the real key to take away and one of the major issues I mentioned above that is totally absent in just about every BBing program with the exception of HST yet athletes of the highest calibur all around the world have been trained like this for a long time now whether they be Olympic lifters, sprinters, throwers, cyclists, football players, power lifters etc... We are talking US, China, Eastern Block, Soviets... - everywhere elite athletes are trained you will find this overwhelmingly common nearly without exception. In using the 5x5 framework one is able to come away with a really clear understanding of dual factor application and their own tolerances that will allow them to gradually adapt the methodology to their own framework and eventually arrive at a macrocycle type program that specifically addresses various needs over time (such a program could handle 6 months of training for competitive BBer culminating in arrival at the day of the contest).

Anyway, if you wanted to try another dual factor program geared to hypertrophy there is one in post #3 I believe right below the 5x5 explanation. http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134233013 This has 4 workouts per week and follows a 2-3/1 protocol for loading/deloading. If you want my opinion it would be to stick to the 5x5 first and do exactly what you said some core, strentching and cardio on the off days. I'm a huge fan of interval sprinting programs for cardio in strength athletes/BBers. An interval methodology can also be applied to the bike, eliptical, swimming using a timer or distance to break it up.
 
I don't mean to hijack, but I actually like some of the stuff coming out of this thread.

My goal right now is to shed fat and maintain lean mass. I am not using any AAS or anything except a bit of ephedrine. You guys think this is appropriate?

JKurz1, I think you might like it:


Monday:
Incline Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5 (Yates style, momentum gets to out of hand otherwise)
ATF Hack Squats 5x20 (Real hacks, with a barbell behind back)
Skull Crushers 5x5

Wednesday:
Standing Overhead Press 5x5
Weighted Chinups 5x5
Weighted Hyper 3x10
Barbell Curl 5x5
Standing or Seated Calve Raise 5x10-15

Friday:
Flat Bench Press 5x5
Barbell Row 5x5 (Yates style)
ATF Barbell Squats 5x20
Weighted Dip 5x5

High reps on the legs is because I am more than happy with thigh development at the moment.

Critique? Constructive criticism welcome. I will likely do cardio on opposing days. Nothing crazy though, 30 minutes of walking on a treadmill. Sunday would be rest.
 
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