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I need sources that PROVE that parallel squats are not safer than ATG squats.

cwc73

New member
I got a job at my school's nationally accredited gym. We are in training to get certified right now. Throughout this book it says that ATG squats are worse on the knees and that parallel squats are "Safest". I know this is bullshit, and I told my boss that I disagree. Now, he proceeds to show how when you drop below it puts all of the weight on the knees. I told him that the weight gets transferred to the hips and not the knees. He said, "no it doesn't". I just bit my tongue on this one because he is afterall my boss.

I was to show the initive and prove him wrong with numerous studies. Can you people help me out?
Major Karma with be blown to anyone that I can blow on.
CWC
 
So the PL forum has a nice sticky on squatting which is well footnoted. I'll provide the pertinent part and references below. I'd suggest heading to your library and obtaining the relevant studies (either electronically or paper). Read them through, highlight the important parts. Many studies reference other works done on a similar topic, you might want to obtain these also. A few other hints on research is to figure out which "key words" were common to a very relevant paper and use the library search facilities to locate others. There are also tool to view which papers have cited a particular paper - this is nice when researching forward or if you can identify a really key paper that everyone who writes on the subject seems to reference. You could probably put together an unbelievably comprehensive overview for him. A cautionary note - you will need to read or at least skim to the relevant areas of a particular paper, do not rely on the brief abstract - use it to select relevant papers but don't cite it as if that's all there is to it.

Put together a report, similar to this one with references and citations and hand it to him. There are a few benefits: 1) it will help out the trainees 2) you will look really polished and professional 3) if you want to be anywhere close to the cutting edge you can't rely on textbooks so you'll get a mini-crash course in research.

Librarians are helpful and once you get started you'll find you can breeze through a lot of this - which will be hugely helpful in future endevours. If you put something nice together you might want to post it too. One more cautionary note - don't just choose to cite stuff that agrees with your view. Understand why others may disagree and address that as best you can.

Link: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=332299

arioch - post body said:
There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

Partial Footnotes said:
1 Stance width and bar load effects on leg muscle activity during the parallel squat. McCaw ST; Melrose DR Med Sci Sports Exerc, 31(3):428-36 1999 Mar

2 Ariel, B.G., 1974. Biomechanical analysis of the knee joint during deep knee bends with a heavy load. Biomechanics. IV(1):44-52.

3 High- and low-bar squatting techniques during weight-training. Wretenberg P; Feng Y; Arborelius UP, Med Sci Sports Exerc, 28(2):218-24 1996 Feb

4 An analytical model of the knee for estimation of internal forces during exercise. Zheng N; Fleisig GS; Escamilla RF; Barrentine SW, J Biomech, 31(10):963-7 1998 Oct

5 Biomechanics of the knee during closed kinetic chain and open kinetic chain exercises. Escamilla RF; Fleisig GS; Zheng N; Barrentine SW; Wilk KE; Andrews JR Med Sci Sports Exerc, 30(4):556-69 1998 Apr

6 A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Wilk KE; Escamilla RF; Fleisig GS; Barrentine SW; Andrews JR; Boyd ML Am J Sports Med, 24(4):518-27 1996 Jul-Aug

7 Chandler TJ and Stone MH. (1991) The squat exercise in athletic conditioning: a review of the literature. NSCA Journal. 13(5): 58-60.
 
Wow. I seriously am gonna print this out so I can commit some massive ownage next time someone tells me they will hurt your knees.
 
Blut Wump said:
Blow me :)

http://www.purepowermag.com/samples/pdf/squat1to39.pdf

It's been a while since I read this but I'm pretty sure that it covers what you want. The article isn't complete, maybe because they'd like you to take out a subscription, but I think it goes into load distribution during the squat.
it says u recruit more ass in full squats... my ass sticks out double my waist,...maybe i should stick to quarter squats :worried:
 
cwc73 said:
Now, he proceeds to show how when you drop below it puts all of the weight on the knees. I told him that the weight gets transferred to the hips and not the knees. He said, "no it doesn't".
CWC

how did he show you? there are no need for studies. its really easy to discuss. ask him where a sticking point is on a full ATG squat. the sticking point is the point of the most tension, the most torque on the joint. anyone that does full ATF squats knows its roughly at parallel. thats the point where you are using some momentum to push through, thats not the place you want to stop on your way down you are producing max force and torque. reversing weight from eccentric to concentric takes alot more force than than you produce on the concentric. so not only are you puttiing torque on your knees by stopping/reversing, but you are doing so where you are at the worst leverage point in the whole motion (the sticking point). This makes the knee extremely vulnerable to shearing forces.

I guess studies help because they give quantifiable numbers to illustrate the concepts. i've seen this concept (sticking point/max leverage) illustrated very well in the NSCA book for prepping for the CSCS. (don't ever loan out that book, you'll never get it back)

good luck bro. just keep in the back of your mind...."when you're through changing, you're through." if the boss isn't open minded to new ideas, then he is just a walking talking 4th edition of whatever textbook you are using, and the world has more than one book in it.
 
Remember a few things. He is working with athletes and if they get hurt for ANY reason...it is HIS fault. A good basketball or football coach could have him fired in a day.

I learned quickly that a lot of College athletes do not squat for a few reasons.
Nolan Richardson, ex basketball coach for Arkansas, would not allow his players to squat AT ALL since he thought that it would hurt their knees. Their strength coach did not argue at all since the coach could have him fired AND IF one player got hurt from doing squats...it would be his fault no matter how dumb the mistake was by the lifter.

Being a good strength coach at a good university is a lot of politics...

B True
 
Would this be a good, easy example?
If you take two pieces of rebar and weld them together at a 90 degree angle, and stand them as to where one piece is verticle (perpindicular to the ground) and the other piece is horizontal to the ground (parallel to the ground) then you put a huge amount of stress at the end of the parallel to the ground piece, it will snap. However, if the pieces make a 115 degree angle and you apply the same pressure, it will just bend slightly more and not break.

How's this sound?
 
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