Complexing Question... (Yuri Verkhoshansk Question...)

[Becoming]

I figure this is one for CCJ- anyone else who has an idea feel free to chime in....

The instructions Yuri Gave:
For example, squat with the barbell on the shoulders (90% from maximum) used in for tonic work. Two approach (sets) of 2-3 reps with the rest 3-4 minutes are conducted. Then after rest 4-6 minutes follows the second (developing) exercise - jumps up with the barbell on the shoulders (30% from maximum). Three sets of 6-8 reps with maximum effort and with the rest between the sets 3-4 minutes are carried out. This series are repeated for 2-3 times with rest 8-10 minutes.

I used 85% and 30% of max load (bodyweight+max squat) instead of just 85% and 30% of weight... I worked up in sets of 2-3. After my first set of 3 at 85%, I rested 2.5 minutes, and then did 3 reps of squat jumps at 30%, I rested 2.5 minutes again, and repeated 5 times (5 sets of squats, and 5 sets of jumps total)
-This was the first and only thing I did for this workout
-I made sure to give max effort on all excercises (going for max velocity on heavy lifts)
-I tried to mimic natural jumping action in the jumping sets

My questions:
1) What is the pupose of doing 3 sets of squats followed by 3 sets of jumps, or is it equivalent to do as I did and just alternate sets...
2) I thought it was appropriate to use 85% and 30% of total weight (bodyweight and weight lifted) was I going too light?
3) One of Yuri's caveats "During training it is necessary to rise gradually the force of the stimulation influence of tonic work, not at expense of the augmentation of its volume but of the weight of load. As to the second (developing) exercise, it is not necessary to change the total amount of work (number of repetitions, approaches, espies), the weight of load or intervals of rest between the approaches and series." (what does it mean?-gradually raise the weight of the heavy set in progressive sets, but don't change the jump sets or weight?)

Anything else I should change or keep in mind?

 

[coolcolj]

My questions:
1) What is the pupose of doing 3 sets of squats followed by 3 sets of jumps, or is it equivalent to do as I did and just alternate sets...

2) I thought it was appropriate to use 85% and 30% of total weight (bodyweight and weight lifted) was I going too light?

3) One of Yuri's caveats "During training it is necessary to rise gradually the force of the stimulation influence of tonic work, not at expense of the augmentation of its volume but of the weight of load. As to the second (developing) exercise, it is not necessary to change the total amount of work (number of repetitions, approaches, espies), the weight of load or intervals of rest between the approaches and series." (what does it mean?-gradually raise the weight of the heavy set in progressive sets, but don't change the jump sets or weight?)

1) actaully normally your supposed to alternate sets in complex training. But eithrr way will work fine, because of the heavy weights still leave an imprint on the CNS for quite a while.
There are many ways to do it. ie If i do olys then squats, the squats will be faster, even though I didn't alternate them.

2)The weight of the tonic exercise doesn't matter so much as long as it's heavier than follwing exercise, but heavier loads do activate the higehr threshold fibers. I also think the 30% for squat jumps a bit too high. 15-20% is more than enough, and in fact unless you squat over 500lbs chances are anything more than 45lbs is probbaly too much. It's more about jumping high and fast, too much laod will bottom out at the bottom of each jump.

3) yes, gotta love that pusedo English of the Russian translators

 

[coolcolj]

more good stuff on complexing by CT


It it important to note that 'complex' training is not limited to supersetting one power and one strength exercise. In fact,the original complex methods (Russian and Bulgarian) used a succession of exercises that were NOT supersetted.

You would do one set of each exercise, but with 2-3 minutes between each. The Russian complex method would use 2 exercises and the Bulgarian complex method four.

Here's a small portion of my upcoming book, dealing with complex training:

"Russian complex training

A Russian complex involves a continuous alternating between exercises of heavy and light loads in the same session; or more specifically alternating between a slow-speed strength exercise and a high-speed strength exercise. In most cases a complex is made up of two exercises. For example:

Lower body Russian complex

Exercise 1. Back squat
3-5 repetitions with a load of 85-95% of 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

Exercise 2. Jump squat
10 repetitions with a load of 15-20% of the back squat 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

The complex would be repeated anywhere from 2 to 5 times in a workout.

A variant of this form of training would be a Russian supersetted complex. Ironically it was not used in the former Soviet Union, but rather it’s an adaptation of the Russian complex by western sport-scientists. The basic technique would be the same, except that there is no rest between both exercises of a complex. For example:

1. Lower body Russian supersetted complex (strength-speed emphasis)

Exercise 1. Back squat
3-5 repetitions with a load of 85-95% of 1RM
No rest

Exercise 2. Jump squat
10 repetitions with a load of 15-20% of the back squat 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

The complex would be repeated anywhere from 2 to 5 times in a workout.

2. Lower body Russian supersetted complex (speed-strength emphasis)

Exercise 1. Jump squat
10 repetitions with a load of 15-20% of the back squat 1RM
No rest

Exercise 2. Back squat
3-5 repetitions with a load of 85-95% of 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

The complex would be repeated anywhere from 2 to 5 times in a workout.

*I am not a big fan of the supersetted version* as it prevents one from producing a high quality effort on both exercises. I think that it became popular mostly because it’s a good way to save time and since it’s more tiring, athlete believe that they are working harder.

Bulgarian complex training

The Bulgarian complex is basically an extended version of the Russian complex: instead of doing a complex of 2 exercises, you use a complex of 4-5 exercises; going from the heaviest one to the lightest one. For example:

Lower body Bulgarian complex

Exercise 1. Back squat
3-5 repetitions with a load of 85-95% of 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

Exercise 2. Power snatch or power clean
2-3 repetitions with a load of 85-95% of 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

Exercise 3. Jump squats
10 repetitions with a load of 15-20% of the back squat 1RM
Rest 3-4 minutes

Exercise 4. Depth jumps
10 repetitions from 0.5m
Rest 3-4 minutes

Exercise 5. Vertical jumps
As many jumps as possible in 15 seconds
Rest 3-4 minutes

Because of the high number of exercises, only 1-3 complexes would be completed in one workout."

 

[Becoming]

2)The weight of the tonic exercise doesn't matter so much as long as it's heavier than follwing exercise, but heavier loads do activate the higehr threshold fibers. I also think the 30% for squat jumps a bit too high. 15-20% is more than enough, and in fact unless you squat over 500lbs chances are anything more than 45lbs is probbaly too much. It's more about jumping high and fast, too much load will bottom out at the bottom of each jump.

Thanks CCJ- I appreciate you taking a look at this for me...Also, is his "upcoming book"(I think I have heard that a couple times) coming out anytime soon? That is pretty cool with adding other excercises... I think one would have to be REAL careful with the depth jumps so late in the group (I noticed only 0.5 meters)....

Some more questions to follow (and more info first, might help you make suggestions)

More info:
For both I used total system weight, I was a little conservative in my numbers (I had no idea as to the difficulty level of this workout-BTW- it was not that hard for me- but I feel I got some good quality work in)... Bdwt ~250 + Max Squat ~525 = ~775

85%= 658-bdwt = 408 = 405 on bar
30%= 232.5 = bdwt only jumps

My cadence on the squat was - controlled quick decent to full squat position (about 1-2 inches below parallel) - pause for about 0.5-1 second - explosive ascent, as fast as possible on way up (had to slow a bit to keep bar from lifting off shoulders at top)... Approached it as 3 consecutive max effort singles....

For the jumps, I made a controlled quick descent, to appropriate jump position, pause, jump max effort for height, when landing, I allowed myself similar distance (kneebend) to absorb as I had used on takeoff... Each time I did briefly reset, before dropping, and doing again (3 reps total) again, as 3 consecutive max effort singles....

More questions:

-After a couple sessions, should I try to use 45lbs on jumps, instead of just bdwt?

-As mentioned in previous post (Yuri's caveat) Should I maybe add 5-10 pounds per heavy set during the workout (ie 405, 410, 415, 420, 425), or maybe increase 5-10 pounds per week? (As long as I can maintaing a max velocity type movement) I think Yuri also mentioned the exact weight does not matter, rather it is the "explosive effort" All things considered, I guess a few more pounds would not hurt as long as it is the same quality of movement...

-How long should I use this for- any other precautions? I am alternating this (Mondays) with a Heavy Deadlift (5x3) day on Thursdays... I had been using a DE day for squats (WSB style) but was not getting enough stimulation and squat was losing ground... Maybe I could complex some light cleans with DLs?.... suggestions of DL friendly complexes/excercises?

-I am getting some chains (WSB style) in a few weeks- could you see any benefits on acceleration, etc on substituting in say 100lbs of chain for 100lbs of the bar weight when I get them? (Ie, 405 at top, 305 at bottom) Do you have any thoughts on this, any adjustments to the percentages that should be made or amt of chain to use if I do this?

Thanks again CCJ, you da man bro!

 

[coolcolj]

His book will be out soon in PDF format. Hardcopy will way down the track from what I know.

Jumpsquats should be done like normal jumping, no pauses etc, up and down. That is why jumping with 30% is not such a good idea
Jud Logan used 105lbs to take help his powerclean from 400 to 440lbs in a program Poliquin made for him and he squats over 700lbs at 275lbs BW. A thrower he trained used 88lbs on his way to a 300+powerclean so you can see too much load on jumpsquats is not ideal. Speed and reactivity is what it's all about.
I would start light and slowly move up. Tendonitus is just around the corner...
try small dumbells or light fixed barbells and move up small increments, but use bodyweight for a while to get the skill etc

weight of the tonic exefcise doesn't matter so much, you just want to activate the nueral system maximally. But remeber staying above 90% too long can cause neural shutdown.
You will have to experiment and see how you go.

I would use this for 3-5 weeks and then cycle to something else. Any longer and the body starts to breakdown I've found.

Cleans and deadlift complexes work great, a good way to use more weight on the cleans. I don't do that much myself, but CT sure does. He uses heavy functional isometric hold deads and eccentric deads though. I don't have any examples off hand though.


Chains - I have no expereince with these sorry
Bands yes, Chains no.

 

[Becoming]

I will have to check out that book when it comes out... thanks for the info... I should jet out to his site, I have not been there in a while.... I feel really good after yesterday's workout, it was taxing, but not overly so... I am sure after a couple weeks, there will be some wear and tear building up.... definitly some experimenting to do....

thanks again bro...

 

[edgecrusher]

If you are going to add chains to the mix, i would not replace them w/ bar weight on a 1/1 basis. Since the chains are accomodating, they are not felt o the bar through out the range of motion. If you are going to add 100lbs of chain wieght I would only remove 50-75 lbs. Of course, you should experiment and see what works for you, but that is what I would do.

 

[Becoming]

edgecrusher- good point bro- I was thinking about that last night.... I figured maybe take off 50 and put on 100 of chains (355 at the bottom and 450 at the top)... exactly what I was thinking... Thanks for the response bro...

 

[edgecrusher]

Becoming-No Prob, by the way Karma to you and CCJ for starting sucha n interesting thread.

 

[coolcolj]

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Originally Posted by anaerobic
Christian, could you just explain the CAD complex and regarding jump squats should legs be bent to parallel or 1/4 squat and I presume performed continuously?

Thanks
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This is basically a spin-off from the Bulgarian complex. It also includes 4-5 exercises of various loading. The difference with the Bulgarian complex is that you have two workouts for each group of muscles/movements (either a lower body/upper body split or push/pull/lower body split). The first workout is an ascending workout (starting with the quickest but lightest exercise) and the second workout is a descending workout (starting with the slowest but heaviest exercise). So basically the first workout is a reverse Bulgarian complex while the second workout is a regular Bulgarian complex.

There is another slight difference with the Bulgarian complex: in the Bulgarian complex you perform one set of each exercise of the complex then start a new complex (vertical loading). However in the Canadian Ascending-Descending method you perform all the sets of an exercise before moving on to the next exercise in the complex (horizontal loading).

I find this system to be the best of all complex training methods as it allows one to give an equal focus to each of the type of strength in the strength spectrum, while in the Bulgarian complex you would always perform speed-strength and reactive strength exercises in a fatigued state