Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I'm sorry, but I'd have to disagree. There is just no evidence of such a systemic response, although there is an overall growth effect from the direct stress squats and deadlifts put on upper body muscle - this is not hormonal, though. This BB will be doing his deadlifts, the only question here - and I understand that the general consensus is not to mess with "the program[tm]" - is how to intelligently restructure some variables of the schedule to target weak points, given that one understands the underlying principles. Weak point targetting is an integral part of successful coaching IMO. I completely agree that squats should be a foundation of any training program, but in this specific instance, this is already a strong point, and we want to maintain squats while increasing focus to his horizontal and vertical pressing movements - something applicable to a football player or boxer even.

I guess I will do some experimentation with exchanging some DE bench work on the bench with the light squats (or front squats) on Wednesday, and probably reduce the 5 x 5 to 2-3 x 5 on Monday unless someone else has any suggestions or experiences.

Thank you for your input, though, it is appreciated and noted.

The consensus to 'not mess with the program' is because most people don't know what the hell they are doing even though they believe they do and have 20 years reading M&F. This way they don't end up in a 3 day split and turn it into one of their normal shitty programs and wonder why it didn't work well.

Whoever started that hormonal crap on squats and deads needs to be flailed. Supercompensation does not forced to be immediate and linear workout to workout and certainly not within a few hours so that and the 'training must be under 60 min or it's worthless' theory is just garbage.

Anyway, the generic template is for full body growth. Increasing the squat just does a good job of growing the entire body due to it's use of a high % of musculature - same with dead and to a degree all compound movements. So the body is a system, should be trained as such, but from a muscle structure standpoint not a hormonal one.

Basically, you can do what you want with the program. Aesthetics make it hard since you aren't just going for basic growth and already have someone who is overdeveloped from a squatting sense. I'd also venture that some might be overcoming a genetic issue (i.e. if he had fabulous chest/shoulder genetics any good training would likely work). You'll have to choose exercises and volume based upon what you know of him, obviously the key to this layout is periodization, a lot of workload on a few 'big lifts' and high frequency of stimulus which is integral. One thing I'd make sure he's working hard are barbell rows. Doing them dynamically. This is pretty key to growing the shoulder girdle in addition to the lats and more power in the lats etc... translates to more power in the bench so there should be some synergy.

Hope that helps.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Along the lines of 'increasing vertical and horizontal pressing movements' and using the rows (performed at 90 degrees or as close to and done dynamically) you might also consider something like a power shrug and dynamic pulling in the vertical plane (i.e. dead or clean varient being vertical and row being horizontal). This might be especially useful if he hasn't done a lot of dynamic pulling or OLs before and the PS is a fairly low skill movement (just don't have him go heavy or work in low reps right away, ease into it). There's a whole writeup on the PS technique on the TOC and a more recent TOC here until I get things finalized and update the one on this thread: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm

If you lower volume on the squats and don't really pound the dead too much, you should have plenty of capacity left over in a base case (i.e. it varies so much that you will have to make the call).

Hope all that helps and gives you some ideas.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Question....Last Thursday I was due to start my 8th week of the 5X5, but my wife decided to have our baby two weeks early. Because of this I have taken a week off to care for her and the baby but am eager to get back into the swing of things.

I plan to return to the gym tomorrow (7 days later and 10 days since last lifting) How should I handle the return....should I jump right back into the 8th week weights and reps, or start over?

Maybe this gets to you in time, maybe not. Go by feel and what you want to do. Loading isn't really a concern with a break like that so if you want to do some heavy triples and hit them hard for 2-3 weeks go ahead. Go by feel and maybe start lighter this week if you have to.

If you'd rather start over, you can do that too. Personally, I really like lifting with triples and pushing them. So - - all up to you and a big congratulations to you and your family! Don't know if you've been a dad before but it's by far the best thing I've done in my life and it seems to keep getting better and better.

 

[big perm]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Thanks Guinness and Madcow.....I have decided to start over this week.

Again, thanks for the help.

p.s. Madcow...this is my first child and I had absolutely no idea how much of a joy he'd be...and he's only 6 days old!

 

[Madcow2]

It just keeps getting better and better. Really adds to your life in ways that can't be explained. Milk it for all it's worth because life doesn't get any better than that.

 

[Blade_HST]

Thanks madcow2 - your comments and input are highly valued. We are definitely in agreement on everything you said. I already have him doing the PS, great exercise (I do it, too)

 

[Madcow2]

Thanks madcow2 - your comments and input are highly valued. We are definitely in agreement on everything you said. I already have him doing the PS, great exercise (I do it, too)

Sure, I wish I could give you something specific but you have the base knowledge so it's really a question of optimization for a certain individual (exercises, weak points, workload, etc...). Not much anyone can do but you, him, and anyone else that has monitored his training.

Best of luck and keep us updated on how it's working out.

Whoops - I missed your 15-20 rep set question. To be honest, unless the weight is very light that's probably going to add up and you'll need to balance and account of it. Do the workload calc and figure out the difference. 5x5 @ 300 = 7500, 1x20 @ 200 = 4000, even 1x20 @ 150 it's still 3000. That's a 53% increase laying one of those sets on top. If you are using say slight incline bench 2x per week at 1x5 and 5x5 plus some overhead work at 5x5, laying on two of those 15-20rep sets is going to be impactful. Not saying you can't do it or it won't work or whatever but that you need to think about it carefully unless the weight is very low to where it's a breeze and you wouldn't even include it in a workload calc.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

5x5 What's Next...​

So this was an interesting thread that came up: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=435585

I cut/pasted a few things below that might help some people get their arms around concepts of systematic progression in training, cookie cutter programs, and goal.

there seem to be a lot of people who do the style of training we usually can "5 by 5" for a while, then wonder "whats next".

one general comment i would make, is that if this style of training has been successfull for you, why change it? and by style of training, im not talking about one specific program, but the general style of doing whole body exercises, training the whole body or at least most of the body in each workout, and doing multiple sets not taken to failure.

i do, however, understand the mental side... you do the same thing over and over and you want something different. there are lots of ways you can change things without totally changing to a "new" program. switching back and forth between widely differing types of training isnt that good of an idea... small and systematic changes over time in what you are doing however IS a good idea.

for instance... say youve been squatting 3 times a week. how about changing one of the workouts to front squat, hell you could change 2 of the workouts to front squat. i hate leg presses, but if you really wanted to, you could squat on monday, front squat on wednesday, and leg press on friday!!! if youve been doing only rows for back, change one or two of the workouts to chinups... substitute stiff legged deadlifts for deadlifts, change mondays workout to 3 sets of 8 for a month, change fridays squat or bench workout to 5 singles, etc, etc, etc.

ive even seen people who after a while on a 3 day a week program, switched to a 4 day split, doing squats and pressing exercises on monday and thursday, back and pulling exercises on wed and saturday. i dont see this as retreating from the principles of the 5 by 5 at all. you are STILL working your whole body, or very nearly so, every training day. squats work the back, they work everything... and deadlifts or stiff legged deadlifts work the legs, not as much as squats, but they still work them. this is in fact the favored program of mike stone, probably the best ex phys guy on the planet and former head of sports science at the olympic training center.

the main thing is to go about it in a systematic way.

one of my lifters, josh wells, who made the junior world team in 2004 in weightlifting, and can jerk close to 400lbs weighing around 180lbs as a teenager, did this program about a year ago in his "off season" to try to gain some general strength.

monday, squats (5 sets of 3), push presses (3 sets of 5) then glute ham raises or reverse hypers

wednesday, snatch pulls (5 sets of 2), powercleans (5 sets of 2), chinups (5 sets of 10 with extra weight, hanging from a 2" bar)

thursday, front squats (6 sets of 2), push jerks (5 sets of 2), military press (3 sets of 5), then glute ham raises or reverse hypers.

saturday, powersnatches (5 sets of 2), clean pulls (5 sets of 5), barbell rows, (5 sets of 5)

obviously this is geared toward olympic weightlifting, and not really what most of you would be doing. im not sure many here have that much interest in doing so many snatch and clean pulls. and hes using lower reps, because of course for him strength is a bigger deal than size, but even his reps changed over time, sometimes were higher, sometimes lower. this is just as representative of the 5 by 5 training style as the simpler 3 day programs... because we did it systematically, sets across instead of failure, gradually moving the weights up, gradually adding then subtracting volume of training to force the body to adapt


the important thing is to think thru the changes, dont make too many at one time, but make them slowly and steadily.

the real value of the "5 by 5" style of training isnt that it can or will add a certain amount of muscle or strength in an 8 week cycle. the real value is that it is a framework that when used right can work for years, slowly changing and morphing along the way to fit itself to your particular goals, and making for steady progress for 3, 4, or more years. it is more than anything, a mindset. a mindset of writing your workouts down, being systematic, knowing what you are going to do before you go to the gym, having a plan, and knowing that 5lbs a month is 60lbs a year and 180lbs in 3 years.

and more than that it is a mindset of THINKING, thinking about training, and rejecting the latest and greatest thing that forces many, even most, to run from one program to the next, changing things totally every time they get bored or have a bad workout. by recording everything, thinking a lot, planning, making small changes instead of wholesale ones, going back and looking at your workout log and looking at the last month, 6 months, year, etc, and planning the next month... within a year or two you know more about your body and what to do than me or anyone else could ever tell you.

now... last comment. i have, in a big drawer, a record of every single workout i have ever done, from the time i was 15 back in 1975 to my last month of competitive training in 2003. every single one. i also have descriptions and comments, tables in the back of the logs that showed weight gain and strength gain on a yearly basis, monthly, etc. comments on what happened to weight/strength when i changed exercises, changed reps, etc. there is very little i dont know about how my body responded, what worked and what didnt, etc. you all should do the same thing. approach training like a scientist working an experiment.

Goals determine the path. Experience/Current Condition determines what exactly you need to do next and in the near future on that path.

A cookie cutter program is just a point - if one is lucky it's somewhere near his path and at least moves him forward by some margin. Training has to evolve with the lifter and move him consistently forward on the path toward his goals.

Most cookie cutters are designed to be "accessible" from a workload perspective so to speak and not kill anyone. They will always be suboptimal in some way (i.e. closer to path = better and forward = better) but for this reason they will never really carry one for very long toward the goal because a point by its nature is static and a lifter is constantly evolving and hopefully moving forward (which tends to be exceedingly rare in commercial gyms). Think of a lot of points clustered around the beginner/new-intermediate area, any choice for a beginner will move him forward even if the choice is in left field somewhere, for an intermediate it's necessary to be more discerning as many points don't allow progression (or you go to the anabolic board and increase the dosage until you start gaining from any old thing again). For someone deep in the intermediate phase there are much fewer cookie cutters that will move him forward. For an advanced lifter, there's generally nothing there.

So, better than people throwing out more cookie cutters maybe clarify the goal and try to evaluate how your training has changed or progressed over time and most recently, where you've been most successful (i.e. moving at a fast rate toward your goal) and what exactly you would like to change (optimally the purpose behind which should be to move even faster toward that goal).

Keep in mind, the goal needn't be big lifts, strength, athletics, or a lot of muscle. It might be a healthy, balanced activity. It might just be fun in which case that's a tougher path because you have to determine what you 'like' to do and what one 'likes' tends to change as people get bored very quickly and want to swap stuff around.

but at what point does squating 3X a week become counter productive..keep in mind my goal is not necessary for strenght (it is a plus) but for the defined, muscular hard look most bbers posses

I don't know that it does. The squat tends to drive full body gains and as long as you are doing exercises besides the squat it's a no brainer. The main issue is that people are coming from a BBing reference of a bodypart 1x per week and despite the overwhelming popularity this was based on some horrendously wrong assumptions and ignorance about muscles needing a week to recover irregardless of what was done and that it was counter productive to train them before the point of full recovery again. Hell, IMO the whole idea of thinking and arranging training in terms of "working" individual muscles is a fairly bad idea.

Hell, some people squat more often and for a lot more volume over a period. Remember that workload over a period is a function of volume and frequency - frequency distributes volume so whether you do all the work 1x per week (not recommended or a good idea) or over 3 sessions, workload is the same. Look at OL's squatting backsquatting and frontsquatting mutliple times per week while every snatch and clean involves a recovery from the squat position. Arguably that might mean legs being trained 12x per week or some such.

Like I said though, the "5x5" program you used is still a data point. If it worked well for you, then it is only because it is on your 'path' and moved you 'forward' at a faster rate than what you've been doing. This is just good training. Your training will have to evolve and change as you progress, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take a good look at that program and understand exactly why it worked (focus on increasing big lifts to drive muscle gains not on 'working a certain muscle', proper use of frequency, management of fatigue, progressive overload, appropriate volume for you at this point in time). In reality the '5x5' here is just a snapshot of what an intro to periodization program might look like. The version a beginner would start with is not structed like that, the version that might be optimal for someone further down the road will be changed too. Lots of alterations in between those 3 points.

As for a suggestion on what else to do, a lot of people have had success running 2 of these back to back. This is due to not having to feel their way, having very relevant maxes, and being able to push a lot harder and more confidently since they aren't worried about blowing the program with bad weight selection. This lets them load a lot harder and get into true overreaching. After that, if you are a BBer, maybe try something along the HST lines. Some higher rep work will really kick off major hypertrophy after building a big strength foundation (this is why training in different rep ranges in different periods is optimal).

Biggest suggestion is to understand why something works and what consitutes good training and programing. That way people don't go back to a 3 day split, training a muscle 1x per week all the time and wonder why it doesn't work very well. When Practical Periodization comes out (early 2006), it will probably be a good book to pickup for you as it should cover all of this in and much much more in detail.

EDIT - okay as I copied the quote in a read the 'muscular hard look that a bber posesses'. This is a combination of muscle and diet. Muscle is taken care of by training, you want the best results for your effort. Diet takes care of that balance of fat to muscle or 'that hard look' in contrast to big and soft.

To further illustrate this look at the pics here of Dave Gulledge dieting down. Read through the thread and see his responses to questions if you like. Inclusing the one from a BBer about how much time he spends doing 'bbing' exercises so he can look like that: http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110

 

[Madcow2]

These were posted by Fortified Iron on his site. I haven't more than glanced at them but they'd probably do people a lot of good to read judging by what I saw.

I dont care what program your on.. what your doing.. who your doing.. or anything like that. Take the 1 hr out of your day to read the following information!

Load:
http://www.fortifiediron.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=58

Work:
http://www.fortifiediron.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=93&Itemid=58

Frequency:
http://www.fortifiediron.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=92&Itemid=58

Duration:
http://www.fortifiediron.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=58

Resistance Training Programs:
http://www.fortifiediron.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=94&Itemid=58

Kc

 

[siamesedream]

These were posted by Fortified Iron on his site. I haven't more than glanced at them but they'd probably do people a lot of good to read judging by what I saw.

Say I feel like I'd like to go back on the 5x5 again but I have an injured back that makes it impossible for me to do bent-over rowing movements and, especially, deadlifting. What would be the best sort of program for me to adapt. Also, I am in a caloric deficit right now and doing cardio so muscle gain is extremely hard if not impossible for me right now, but it seems I have the ability to gain strength still little by little by little.