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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

siamesedream said:
Can I have a link to Rippetoe's tips 'n tricks? I just started up the single-factor 5x5 this week and have never squatted, deadlifted, or rowed before it. Naturally, my deadlift is horrible and my top set is only 185 pounds, but I already know I need to up it since that top set was pretty easy yesterday.


P.S. a really simple question for madcow or anyone: Some plans just came up yesterday and I apparently have to be on the road travelling all day Friday, so I'll have to do my "Friday" workout on Saturday. Will this screw everything up including next week's workout? It doesn't seem like it should do much at all since this is only my first week on the program and things are still getting adjusted.

Rippetoe's book = www.startingstrength.com, probably not a bad investment to help really learn the lifts. The stickies in the PL forum are excellent for the squat and bench. This is a good deadlift sticky at Meso - I have a feeling Arioch wrote this (who wrote the bench and squat in the PL forum here as well as the snatch description in my TOC): http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=684

PPS - don't worry about it, just do the workout Saturday.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

A Synthesis of Differing Methodologies - Workload

So I thought I'd take a few things I've written and post them here. I've written a few things on workload and factors lately so it'll be a new set of links in the TOC. This will probably help people understand what's going on when the see Max-OT, HIT, Higher volume BBing programs, and periodized workouts.


Madcow2 said:
paul e said:
If there is only one clearcut way to training nirvana, how come there are so many advanced and knowledgeable body builders, pros, and others, natural and otherwise, who are employing so many principles , many of which are diametrically opposed?

If we want our car to go faster, we can give the engine forced induction, cubic inches, and/or lighten the vehicle.. theres not much disagreement there.

So how come theres so much disagreement about how to build the body?

There really isn't much disagreement - at least outside of BBing. A lot of times it's a question of optimality and the condition, experience, and goal of a given trainee has to be taken into consideration.

If you want a muscle to adapt to higher workloads then you have to increase the workload they are subjected to over time (and any program should have this as the underlying premise - if there is no system for improvement it's a "routine" and routines are just that - routine and no progression, for experienced lifters it is not enough to go in and work hard). This might be through any combination of volume, intensity, or frequency manipulation. Beginners can use a linear pattern and hammer away all the time while more advanced trainees typically make the best progress using periodization to enable them to train with higher workloads than they'd be able to tolerate using a strictly linear approach where it must be tolerated on a constant basis indefinitely.

What I was getting at earlier when I asked you about what the stimulus for adaptation to weight training was and told you it absolutely wasn't failure (as supported exhaustively by science) was the workload answer. Training to failure programs are using intensity primarily (i.e. the weight being lifted) to increase capacity. They train to failure so they have a benchmark of their capacity and they try to improve it each session (i.e. add weight, work to get target reps, if successful add weight again - session to session). And you know what? It can work. The main issues are that you have only a single variable to work with and training to failure has been shown not to result in excess gains yet can be excessively taxing to the CNS so you have to deal with a degree of possible wastefulness and the limitations that imposes on volume and frequency.

Still, it's a nice quantifiable and easy to follow plan. It's a lot harder to manage volume and frequency. Give a group a program like this and keep the volume tolerable to the least common denominator and you'll improve most of them. Great for getting a lot of people trained without a lot of attention using a basic cookie cutter template. Will it be optimal, maybe for a few guys but not for all due to widely varying tolerances for workload and current conditioning. This is the role of a coach - to make optimal progress with each trainee not to punt and hope the least common denominator works well enough.

Cookie cutter programs tend to not be optimal because volume plays a massive role in workload calculations and the variations of the tolerances between lifters are much larger and harder to discern (even those with comparable experience and maximum lifts). You want to have this factor at your disposal. Volume manipulation is key to manipulating workload. Frequency is a good thing and from the quotes and discussion above you can see that how one distributes workload is fairly important, must be tailored to the individual and goal, and simply punting and doing an exercise every 7 days leaves someone with less than optimal results.

Probably a good explanation is to read this link and the link at the very top that's contained in it as it defines some of the terms more clearly - http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5017744&postcount=686

Here is an article on HIT written by elite sprint coach Charlie Francis: http://www.charliefrancis.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=2

EDIT:

I should probably add the caveates to the above that obviously each factor (frequency, volume, and intensity) is important in it's own right. It's not like once a month you can do some rediculous workload and grow or do negatives with massive weights. Everything needs to be in a semi-decent range and this is why even though most programs might seem at odds with each other they are at least similar enough that people will get some type of result (especially novices).

Also, it's somewhat unfair to HIT to say that they don't adjust workload outside of intensity. The idea behind the one set is that you start there and then train again when you can do more weight (in its most simple sense - there are obviously more to some HIT based programs so a lot of this is somewhat an unfair generalization yet if you look at the versions of HIT most seem to be employing in the gyms this isn't out of line). This allows the frequency to be set by the lifter to their own capacity. So number of training times will determine the volume. Not great but that's the idea. They also generally don't periodize so people wind up getting fatigued and using very low frequency on a constant basis rather than altering this. In addition, intensity isn't strict definition with hit because when you can do 8 reps with a heavier weight your 1RM has theoretically changed too so it's still the same % of 1RM and the same intensity - it's just easier to think like this for classification.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Lifting to Failure - the Muscle and CNS

This is a great piece on Elington Darden's forums. The information you are specifically looking at is NWLifter's. Probably valuable to read the whole discussion in the link - it's not terribly long and is quite illuminating especially for the HIT crew that spends their time reguritating Mentzer's psuedoscience and analogies rather than looking at how the body actually works.

http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

More on Frequency and it Not Being an Absolute

This came from bb.com which eventually banned the Max-OT spouting moron Jrzymuscle but there are some good quoted below. Not that Max-OT is a bad or horrible program per se, but this guy was irritating (his manner and the way he swallowed the entire bullshit gospel and went around spewing it everywhere) and obviously Max-OT is not the final word on physiology or exercise science.


Jrzymuscle - Some Banned Retard said:
Multiple sessions to work the same muscle group a will not maximize your muscle gains.......thats a scientific fact!

Will you make gains .....maybe. But ask yourself will I maximize my gains?
the answer is NO


I'm going to actually throw you a Poliquin bone - someone I'm not a massive fan of simply because he dumbs down his stuff so much to make it palatable to BBing. Check out his frequency article here on this very site which you happen to respect so much: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/charles3.htm

Apparently, I'm not the only one who says frequency isn't an absolute. I guess Poliquin is a retard too since just about everything below conflicts with Max-OT. If you take the time to learn you will find that a lot in this world is going to conflict with Max-OT. But if you are happy with it, that's all that matters. Just try to avoid spouting off about stuff which you have no clue about.

Poliquin said:
Training more than 3 times a week for a improving a lift is excellent to go through a plateau. In this area, there is scientific literature to back up this concept. But there is also a need to lower training volume once every three weeks for males and every three weeks for females.
AND
Poliquin said:
However, in the practice of strength training in the sporting world, especially with elite athletes, there are conflicting schools of thought on training frequency. For example, Rich Weil, World Record holder in the bench press, recommended one session per week per muscle group (Weil, 1985) while at the other end of the spectrum 9 to 12 weekly sessions are common on leading successful weightlifting teams. For example, Tara Nott, America's first Olympic Gold Medalist in weightlifting has regularly squatted 9 times a week to achieve her sporting standard.
AND
Poliquin said:
If you can afford dedicating it the time, I believe that training twice a day for the same body part (if you can afford the training time) is the system that works best. The morning workout facilitates the evening workout. Then again, I make the individual train that body part 5 days later. The trainee will train 3 days out of five twice a day for 10 days, then go on to once a day for 5 days.
AND
Poliquin said:
Of all the loading parameters, I think training frequency is the one that is most influenced by individual genetic differences, regardless of drug use or not. I believe that it is the loading parameter that one must experiment with most to find out what works out best for them. I have seen very strong individuals get strong on once every 10 days to 10 times a week. In both extremes there where individuals using recovery agents and some not.
AND
Poliquin said:
The choice of training method influences recovery. For example, the more eccentric overload, the more need for recovery. Squatting 4 sets of 6 with chains is more demanding that squatting 8 sets of 3 explosively, even though the total reps are the same.
AND
Poliquin said:
n summary, training frequency will be determined by your training goals, your gender, the choice of training methods, magnitude and intensity of training load and most important your genetic make-up. In other words, you have to find out what works best for you. Take for example my assistant Chad Ikei, he bench pressed a World Record of 316 lbs at a bodyweight of 112.5 lbs at age 19.

At that time he was bench pressing twice a week. Later on, when he was on the US weightlifting team, he trained the hip and knee extensors at a frequency of 8 to 12 times a week and yet his best performance was 13th in the World, and was National Record holder in the snatch, clean and jerk and total.
AND
Poliquin said:
Provided that the training intensity and volume are challenging, a frequency of once every 5 days works for most individuals, most of the time. This is how I train 70% of my clients with appreciable results. Of course, you will here arguments like my uncle Bob bench pressed once only every equinox, and he can bench 600 lbs, or on the other side, you will not make gains unless you train at a frequency per week that represents the last 4 digits of you social security number.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Just leaving some journals and links for updating the TOC:

BBIng . Com
forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=499621
david135's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=516254
krzyjzn's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=525056
TKL's: forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=523032


http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5065105&postcount=59
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5071295&postcount=90
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5065752&postcount=3
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5073995&postcount=155
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5078960&postcount=51
 
can u bench 3x a week, if it was a preference?

do it the same as squat, like..

week 1-4

bench- 5x5

bench - 5x5

bench 1x5

week 5

just twice a week m/f

then week 6-10

add miltary on wed

i was thinking how itd work out.

because i love the first 4 weeks on squats. i know youre still pressing 3x a week, but just adjust it to suit u, even though either way is fine, i like military just the same
 
Give it a shot. Maybe use a different variant on Wed like close grip, bands/chains or some such but not necessary. I imagine you'll be happy with the results. A lot of times the Wed squat workout will be heavy front squats - this makes it a lot more similar to the M/F Bench and W incline or military layout.
 
Hey madcow,
I'm working on my next run (after a deload- I think I am fatigued from the intensity phase, plus there are a few exercises I need to practice on) and I need some help. I really want to focus on improving my DL and I was thinking of doing a run of 5x5 WITHOUT DL'ing based on an article you linked about a guy improving his dl by focusing on olympic lifting variants, as well as that old Bill Starr article on the same topic.

Here are the items under consideration:

-My sticking point with DL is the initial portion (I imagine that's common in men) and I am trying to incorporate movements which will increase explosive power to initiate the pull. Sound like a decent plan of attack?

-I'd like to use GM's and power cleans but I'm not sure how to set up a traininng cycle that will approximate the workload of the standard 5x5 without the dl included.

-Perhaps I could use the program as originally laid out (cleans and high pulls) but there'd be no GM's in that version. I suppose I don't HAVE to do GM's but I've been itching to do them based on reading advice from folks with big dl #'s. Could these be integrated effectively as assistance work in a higher rep range? Or (as I am hoping) can I just add them on wednesdays in the 5x5/3x3 range with high pulls and end up with a similar net workload as a weds. session w/ deads?

Thanks a million for all you've contributed to this board.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

i think i wanna try all 3 lifts 3x a week, in different segments.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Guinness5.0 said:
Hey madcow,
I'm working on my next run (after a deload- I think I am fatigued from the intensity phase, plus there are a few exercises I need to practice on) and I need some help. I really want to focus on improving my DL and I was thinking of doing a run of 5x5 WITHOUT DL'ing based on an article you linked about a guy improving his dl by focusing on olympic lifting variants, as well as that old Bill Starr article on the same topic.

Here are the items under consideration:

-My sticking point with DL is the initial portion (I imagine that's common in men) and I am trying to incorporate movements which will increase explosive power to initiate the pull. Sound like a decent plan of attack?

-I'd like to use GM's and power cleans but I'm not sure how to set up a traininng cycle that will approximate the workload of the standard 5x5 without the dl included.

-Perhaps I could use the program as originally laid out (cleans and high pulls) but there'd be no GM's in that version. I suppose I don't HAVE to do GM's but I've been itching to do them based on reading advice from folks with big dl #'s. Could these be integrated effectively as assistance work in a higher rep range? Or (as I am hoping) can I just add them on wednesdays in the 5x5/3x3 range with high pulls and end up with a similar net workload as a weds. session w/ deads?

Thanks a million for all you've contributed to this board.

What I'd probably do is break the thing down. You'd probably want 4 days to distribute the pulling. Keep the squat base but maybe consider the Wed squat as flexible. Keep 2 bench and a pushpress session or some such. Drop the rows for now.

Now you have room for Starr's stuff. If I remember right he had: cleans, snatches, clean and snatch grip high pulls, good mornings, and powershrugs. There was a whole writeup of this in PowerliftingUSA years ago with a day by day program I believe. Well, that's lost forever to me. Anyway the real keys are the hi pulls and good mornings. The cleans and snatches were mainly done to warm up. Clean/snatch pulls are also viable (i.e. you don't pull them as high). If you are weak at the bottom typically people will pull deads when standing on plates, use smaller diameter plates (i.e. 35s not 45s), widen the grip to a snatch or near snatch position.

The main issue here is that you are going to be pulling a lot and for a lot of volume. Starr writes out these workouts he used but you have to remember, this was a really proficient olympic lifter who pulled for volume all the time. SuperRice is doing the 3x3 now and from what I gather he's found his lower back pretty damn fatigued from all the pulling and squatting (granted he's deadlifting but pulling is pulling and there's a lot here too). A second issue is that you want to be familiar with the exercises first. Don't start your foray into goodmornings day 1 of the program. You might need some time to acclimate to these lifts first. Maybe that's a little mesocycle of it's own.

So anyway, assume you'll need 4 days to get in the exercises - maybe they fit in 3. Don't worry too much about the power clean and power snatch as these were mainly to warm up for the highpulls. You can also sub clean pulls for high pulls. These are the important ones along with the good morning. Using a snatch grip will let you pull from a lower position but that's the only deadlift specific benefit. You might want some shrugging in there too, do it from the high hang, you can even do it from pins should you choose if you don't want to strain to support it or lower it with heavy weight to preserve the back. You'll probably want two sessions of good mornings if you can tolerate that - maybe that means the Wed squat equivalent goes or is minimized or becomes speed deadlifts off plates or with a snatch grip (maybe snatch pulls). Anyway, I'm throwing out ideas for a loading protocol that you might want to use. Reread the Starr article and the one that other guy used as you put it together.

So anyway, you can figure out what you need to do to acclimate to the program and set up a decent volume for loading. The real question is going to be how you tolerate all the pulling - maybe the full blown program is something to back burner now and do sort of a semi 4 week mesocycle just to see how it goes and see if you have a back left. Once you have an idea about how well you tolerate this you can figure out what kind of loading and deloading protocols you need. You could also do it in two waves of loading with a mild deload in between and a heavier one towards the end. Maybe switch up exercises part way too (early focus on depth and floor work, later on heavy pulls).

Anyway, lot of ideas and some cautionary points for you to consider but that should get you going and thinking in the right direction.
 
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