Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

[siamesedream]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Okay - the novice version is different - I thought you were talking about differences between the 3 linked periodized descriptions in the table of contents (one of which is Animalmass', the others being mine and JS182's - but all the same program).

The bottom line is that you simply won't be able to tolerate that kind of load where you are squatting for 5x5 3 times per week with similar applications along the other exercises. As a matter of fact, very few can tolerate that indefinitely (maybe some very elite lifters) which is why it works for periodization and pushes experienced lifters into overreaching (and overtraining if they didn't periodize - myself included). You need less volume so that you can train linearly, a la single factor, and you'll actually get great results from this with a lot less hassle and likelyhood of screwing things up.

It's not like the novice version is for first time weight trainers. Starr used this program for college level athletes and football players who have years of training under their belts. You just don't have the tolerance or work capacity accrued to tolerate that much load (it's over 100% more) and you'll wind up with inferior results - maybe drastically.




You're mixing things up. First - I like to use the real definition of intensity as a quantifiable variable representing a given % of a person's 1RM that a lift is being performed at. Second, what you are terming intensity is just a matter of effort required. Well, it's so much effort and the volume and frequency are so high that you can't sustain the load for long and it won't work for you. Second, this extra anaerobic effort put forth only has a minimal impact on calories while training and that is the only tie-in to fat loss from the workout itself. The other tie-in would be that muscle gained would increase your caloric requirement and use up calories currently going to excess fat - that's nice but you had better not be lean and trying to pull this off because you won't make gains. All that said, you'll make better gains from the novice program so that wipes any advantage. So just forget about one option being better for fat loss than the other - you choose the weight program that is appropriate and it will provide far better benefits.

And, finally of course - hopefully if you are lean you aren't trying to add muscle and lose fat at the same time.

Thanks a bunch for the reply, that was some great information. Alright, I'll be doing the single-factor novice version then. I'll spend today and Friday figuring out what my top set for each exercise should be, which is the amount of weight I can just barely push for 5, right?

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

The layout is such that you don't really need to be very precise, you can just gradually work your way into the program over a series of weeks and you'll very quickly find out what your weights are.

I advise gradually working your way into it because a lot of people simply aren't used to the kind of frequency and load from the core lifts that these programs employ (yes, even the novice one). When you combine relatively low levels of base volume and conditioning, the workload from these programs, and the strength and weight gain that many experience, it's fertile ground for tendonitis and overuse injuries. Just take it slow and gradually acclimate yourself, you'll be amazed at just how well this type of training works.

All that said, diet is totally up to you. Make sure you read my post on diet and caloric excess in the table of contents and then do as much research as you wish on the topic (I say read my post first because it is always the diet nazis that have trouble gaining muscle so you need to understand why this is so).

 

[siamesedream]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

The layout is such that you don't really need to be very precise, you can just gradually work your way into the program over a series of weeks and you'll very quickly find out what your weights are.

I advise gradually working your way into it because a lot of people simply aren't used to the kind of frequency and load from the core lifts that these programs employ (yes, even the novice one). When you combine relatively low levels of base volume and conditioning, the workload from these programs, and the strength and weight gain that many experience, it's fertile ground for tendonitis and overuse injuries. Just take it slow and gradually acclimate yourself, you'll be amazed at just how well this type of training works.

All that said, diet is totally up to you. Make sure you read my post on diet and caloric excess in the table of contents and then do as much research as you wish on the topic (I say read my post first because it is always the diet nazis that have trouble gaining muscle so you need to understand why this is so).

I read your thing on food and calories and found a ton of good info in there. My BF% is probably 25 or something, maybe more but hopefully not. So, what my diet is right now is eating carbs on the weekend from non-processed foods and eating mostly meat and vegetables during the week with some blueberries or something right after lifting. I'll try to add some more calories from beef after reading your thing though since I currently am eating around 1600-1800 calories a day at the moment.


On another note, I just got back from the gym and I have to say I love this program. What was really humiliating for my own mind's scrutiny was the fact that, even as a total novice, I bench way more than I squat. I've never squatted or deadlifted in my life, but I did squats, benching, rows, situps, close-grip benching, and curls today. I started out on squats expecting to go a 5th set of 200 pounds and, as it turned out, my 5-rep squatting max is an incredibly wimpy 150. For benching, I did


75x5
100x5
125x5
150x5
175x5

and I was successful on the last set. Does this mean I should bump up 5 pounds on all the weights for the next time? It seems like the first set you do should be a bit less than half of what the last set is going to be and then you make even jumps in between, am I correct?

Also, I did rows today and I felt the pain in my lowerback but none in my upper back, does this mean I'm doing them incorrectly?

And one last question for now until I have more after doing deadlifting instead of rowing on Friday: How much resting time should there be in between sets? I have one workout partner and we just went immediately after one another for the first 3 sets and waited a minute or so before the 4th and 5th set.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Rest time saren't critical- don't be lazy but don't rush it. Rest enough to give it a solid shot. It sounds like you're resting adequately.

As for rows, are you rounding your low back? Absolutely don't. It could just be that your erectors are fried b/c squats and rows are new and therefore take a lot out of them. If that's the case you'll become conditioned soon enough.

 

[siamesedream]

Rest time saren't critical- don't be lazy but don't rush it. Rest enough to give it a solid shot. It sounds like you're resting adequately.

As for rows, are you rounding your low back? Absolutely don't. It could just be that your erectors are fried b/c squats and rows are new and therefore take a lot out of them. If that's the case you'll become conditioned soon enough.

I just did a few rows the way I did them earlier after reading your post and yes, rounding my lower back is exactly what I'm doing, not because I'm too tired to straighten it though, just because I didn't know proper form. Thanks and I'll be sure to do 'em right next Monday.



still waiting for clarification from madcow on this, though:

"For benching, I did


75x5
100x5
125x5
150x5
175x5

and I was successful on the last set. Does this mean I should bump up 5 pounds on all the weights for the next time? It seems like the first set you do should be a bit less than half of what the last set is going to be and then you make even jumps in between, am I correct?"

 

[Guinness5.0]

If you haven't already, read the exercise description for rows (part II in TOC). Lots of pics/descriptions. I had never done them before and I absolutley love them now.

 

[Sub-Zero]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

MADCOW OR ANYONE - QUESTION


is there anyway i could add some sort of "pumping" exersise, just for personal satisfaction

would it harm the program to do 1x5 and then instead of 5x5, like 3x10, or 4x10 or something on bench, rows and maybe even squats too, and then when deload/intensity comes make it 2x10 or 3/4x6 or something?


also, if i wanna somehow get some lateral raises in there for my delts, what day do you think it would fall best on.
like if i wanna have curls, calves, and lateral raises, and maybe some shrugs in the calf raise machine (just simply shrugging, no body motion involved so its easy on the system). what days would those best go on?

i know uv previously given the OK on bbcurlks 2-3x10, and same with calves and some shrugs, but what about the lateral raises? do u think that would interfere with recovery too much?

thanks

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I just did a few rows the way I did them earlier after reading your post and yes, rounding my lower back is exactly what I'm doing, not because I'm too tired to straighten it though, just because I didn't know proper form. Thanks and I'll be sure to do 'em right next Monday.



still waiting for clarification from madcow on this, though:

"For benching, I did


75x5
100x5
125x5
150x5
175x5

and I was successful on the last set. Does this mean I should bump up 5 pounds on all the weights for the next time? It seems like the first set you do should be a bit less than half of what the last set is going to be and then you make even jumps in between, am I correct?"

Do not round the back. There are links to pictures of rows in the table of contents.

Use your discretion, it's going to be hard to always have them completely even. You can also manipulate the load by making the jumps smaller but still even. It's probably fine the way you have it for now.

 

[Madcow2]

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

MADCOW OR ANYONE - QUESTION


is there anyway i could add some sort of "pumping" exersise, just for personal satisfaction

would it harm the program to do 1x5 and then instead of 5x5, like 3x10, or 4x10 or something on bench, rows and maybe even squats too, and then when deload/intensity comes make it 2x10 or 3/4x6 or something?

It would critically fuck this entire program. The "pump" means about as much to your hypertrophy as the color of my 2nd dump last night. By moving to higher reps you are drastically changing the parameters of intensity (%1RM), and volume. Experiment after you get a good base and sound application of the existing program (that way when the results are harmed you notice it) or design a separate mesocycle 3:1 around higher reps.

also, if i wanna somehow get some lateral raises in there for my delts, what day do you think it would fall best on.
like if i wanna have curls, calves, and lateral raises, and maybe some shrugs in the calf raise machine (just simply shrugging, no body motion involved so its easy on the system). what days would those best go on?

i know uv previously given the OK on bbcurlks 2-3x10, and same with calves and some shrugs, but what about the lateral raises? do u think that would interfere with recovery too much?

thanks

Hmmm, the funniest thing is that most everyone has been surprised by their delt growth from doing no direct work of any kind other than just pressing overhead and rowing. Some have experienced the same for arms (at least those that have not included direct training and didn't have out of proportion development before beginning).

When people have asked to add something (as in one thing) it's generally not too much of a problem but when you start adding all kinds of crap it becomes an issue. Most of this stuff isn't worth the time it takes to do it. Better to get home faster so you can eat sooner. I'm not going to comment on shrugs on a calf machine but really, focus on increasing your core lifts.

From all the talk of high reps, pump, and these bullshit exercises it looks like you are trying to make this into a conventional BBing program. One of the reasons why it works is because it doesn't look like what most BBers do. Their programs are shit and through copious anabolics/anciliaries and genetics (part of which is the favorable response to meds taken) they've managed to succeed in spite of their training not because of it. Don't sweat the small stuff, get big and strong first and then worry about your deltoid balance or calf development. In the end, most find that without all the bullshit they grew fairly uniformly and symetrically without much in the way of isolation work at all. Concentrate on the 95% and spend time on the 5% on an "as needed" basis when the time comes.

 

[Madcow2]

Just linking a few things for future reference when I update my thread TOC again.

go2failure's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404215
jim quini's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391939
super_rice's Korte 3x3 journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408645
Guiness5.0's journal: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399754