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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now! within the Weight Training & Weight Lifting category.

Excerpt: Content by Madcow2 Last Revised 1/11/2006 UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with

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  1. #591
    Guru Slyder190's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Madcow2
    You kind of need to go by feel. Do you feel like you are overreaching again? If you don't feel like you did in week 4 (Assuming you set the weights right) then take a single week of 2 workouts at 50-65% or some such and begin the volume again. Point being, it should be easy, work on acceleration a bit or something but you want to keep everything low for a week or two before jumping back in. You can also take a light week here and then start the volume phase fairly lightly, this can work. If you are severely burned, you might need two weeks of the 2x per week. I can't really help you more than that, it's science but it's also a bit of art and since I'm not you and I don't have any reference for you the best thing you can do is go by feel. THat's why I'm always stressing for people to pay attention, be conservative, and learn in their first run through. The more data you have, the better decisions you can make.


    Absolutely not. Failure may occur in that you don't get your target number for that week but it is not the goal and you certainly don't want to be setting numbers where you are blowing every single exercise. Nothing special about failure or magic in that last rep - except for the fact that it burns the CNS significantly. Concentrate on getting better and pushing your weights up. Push yourself hard (but be somewhat realistic and willing to adjust), if you fail in week 3, carry the weight forward a week.

    I understand the whole feel and individuality point. I'm still unclear as to what type of weights to use post cycle. Are saying 50-65% of the weight I used for week 9? Using 50-65% for the 3x3 post cycle workouts?

    And with failure, what I meant was this - this past week I got 315 for 1x3 for bench, but the final rep felt to me like it was probably the last rep I was going to be able to get. Is this okay? I went up 10lbs from the previous week. Not every 1x3 set feels like this. For example, with squats I finish the set on the third rep, but I know I could still get a few more. But like i said, for a few lifts, such as bench and deads, this past week, the third rep felt like it was the last one I could get.

  2. #592
    Olympian TheOak84's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    hey madcow, i met a guy at my gym that finally knows was WSB is and was actually doin the routine. we talked for a bit, hes big strong and smart, FINALLY! anyway he said that I should add GM's and cleans to my routine. he said hes read everything on bill starr and is about to start one of his routines.

    can i do the dual factor 5x5 and add cleans and GM's?

  3. #593
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by slyder190
    I understand the whole feel and individuality point. I'm still unclear as to what type of weights to use post cycle. Are saying 50-65% of the weight I used for week 9? Using 50-65% for the 3x3 post cycle workouts?

    And with failure, what I meant was this - this past week I got 315 for 1x3 for bench, but the final rep felt to me like it was probably the last rep I was going to be able to get. Is this okay? I went up 10lbs from the previous week. Not every 1x3 set feels like this. For example, with squats I finish the set on the third rep, but I know I could still get a few more. But like i said, for a few lifts, such as bench and deads, this past week, the third rep felt like it was the last one I could get.
    I was thinking 50-65% of your 1RM for a week. Work on acceleration a bit. Really depends on how bad you feel.

    Your meaning of failure is fine. You should be working ultra hard and really pushing yourself. If you got 315 for 3 on week 8 just barely, you'd add 5 lbs (have to add weight) and make sure you have a spot for week 9.

  4. #594
    Guru Slyder190's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Madcow2
    I was thinking 50-65% of your 1RM for a week. Work on acceleration a bit. Really depends on how bad you feel.

    Your meaning of failure is fine. You should be working ultra hard and really pushing yourself. If you got 315 for 3 on week 8 just barely, you'd add 5 lbs (have to add weight) and make sure you have a spot for week 9.
    I don't really know what my 1RMs are. How bout if i used like 75-80% of my 1x3 max?

    And I had my Bf checked today. It was 6.5 roughly. I posted on the AAS board regarding some things in question, but I thin k it was fairly accurate. No wonder i can't gain weight. Your program has gotten me MUCH stronger for such a low BF though. I'm gonna maintain with regular BB style workouts after my run with your program is over, but not push myself to failure. Then when fall comes and I won't mind packing on the weight as much, I will give it another run or maybe go with DFHT to really maximize my gains with right amount of calories.

  5. #595
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by slyder190
    I don't really know what my 1RMs are. How bout if i used like 75-80% of my 1x3 max?

    And I had my Bf checked today. It was 6.5 roughly. I posted on the AAS board regarding some things in question, but I thin k it was fairly accurate. No wonder i can't gain weight. Your program has gotten me MUCH stronger for such a low BF though. I'm gonna maintain with regular BB style workouts after my run with your program is over, but not push myself to failure. Then when fall comes and I won't mind packing on the weight as much, I will give it another run or maybe go with DFHT to really maximize my gains with right amount of calories.
    There's a 1RM calculator linked in the table of contents to this thread:
    http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...&postcount=393

    Yeah, at anywhere below 8% and it's almost impossible to convince the body to add even a smidge of muscle without adding more caloric surplus. With no net weight gain and that slim a margin for calories, it's all your body can do to keep you reasonable in case of a famine. All one can really do is get stronger in a good hypertrophy rep/volume range in the big lifts, if you aren't feeding yourself - you can't expect to gain muscle especially with a margin that low.

    This is a good foundation program. When you are ready to gain again you might try running 4 weeks of hard volume, deload for 2 weeks with the 2x, and then slam into DFHT, maybe then drop into a higher rep program after deloading again.

  6. #596
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    Whatsup guys? Damn, this thread is STILL going, awesome. Whats up Madcow? I decided to run thru this one more time, before switching to a WSB type workout routine with box squats, exc. But im making great gains on my 2nd round of 5x5. My last time doing it, my finishing maxes were:
    Squat-455
    Bench-265 (yea, i know, its weakk, but it went up, thats what counts!)
    Dead-455
    I hit those maxes, if i recall, about 3 weeks into PCT from a cycle. I took roughly 2 weeks off, and then started up 5x5 again, and im in week 5, so its been about 2.5 months being "off". And im STRONGER than before, no joke. Guess it goes to show what proper training methods, coupled with a lot of calories can do! This time around, if i keep on how these first 5 weeks have gone, my NEW maxes should be:
    Squat-500-550
    Bench-280-290
    Dead-525-550

    I did get a Metal Viking Squat Suit for my b-day, but i only really use it and my knee wraps on attempts over 80% o my 1rm. Anyways, been away awhile, and just wanted to update you all. Be good...
    Bionic
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  7. #597
    Olympian TheOak84's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    for my 2nd run of the routine i was thinking this setup

    dual factor style: 5x5/deload/3x3

    mon

    squat 5x5
    bench 1x5
    clean 1x5 or 5x5

    wed

    squat 5x5
    dead 5x5
    military 5x5
    pullup 5x5


    sat

    squat 1x5
    bench 5x5
    gm 1x5
    rows 5x5

    would this be too much?

    i dont think so..

    feedback please

  8. #598
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by BionicBC
    Whatsup guys? Damn, this thread is STILL going, awesome. Whats up Madcow? I decided to run thru this one more time, before switching to a WSB type workout routine with box squats, exc. But im making great gains on my 2nd round of 5x5. My last time doing it, my finishing maxes were:
    Squat-455
    Bench-265 (yea, i know, its weakk, but it went up, thats what counts!)
    Dead-455
    I hit those maxes, if i recall, about 3 weeks into PCT from a cycle. I took roughly 2 weeks off, and then started up 5x5 again, and im in week 5, so its been about 2.5 months being "off". And im STRONGER than before, no joke. Guess it goes to show what proper training methods, coupled with a lot of calories can do! This time around, if i keep on how these first 5 weeks have gone, my NEW maxes should be:
    Squat-500-550
    Bench-280-290
    Dead-525-550

    I did get a Metal Viking Squat Suit for my b-day, but i only really use it and my knee wraps on attempts over 80% o my 1rm. Anyways, been away awhile, and just wanted to update you all. Be good...
    Bionic
    Good to hear from you!

    Sounds great - the 5x5 is a good all around foundation routine to segway into a more specialized WSB PL specific program. If you are interested, Tim Harold, Jr. is the mod in the PL forum over at Midwest Barbell here: http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/. Lots of knowledgable lifters and coaches very familiar with WSB. Pendlay mods the OL forum.

    It's exciting making gains and pushing your lifts up. I think it becomes more rewarding when you have a plan and are executing it session to session and then reap the rewards after it's all said and done. You can tell your original thread has become a pretty big resource and it seems a lot of people are happy with it and the progress they've been making. So if you think about it - you've actually played a pretty big part in making a number of people happier and more successful in their efforts. Pretty positive contribution IMO.

  9. #599
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by TheOak84
    for my 2nd run of the routine i was thinking this setup

    SNIP

    would this be too much?

    i dont think so..

    feedback please
    Depends on how you handled the first. Remember that ideally you want to be exceeding records on both weeks 3/4. This moves the program into another realm of loading than where most people equal and then marginally exceed in week 4 and the final record week of the 3x3. The heavier and harder you load (up to the point of tolerance) and stronger the rebound effect is.

    So it's not too much more work (goodmorning being the only addition and the Clean might be if done for 5x5). I don't think it will be too bad. If you aren't familiar with the clean or goodmorning this would change my opinion esp with the goodmorning as you might overload the lowerback with the deadlifts. Another option might be to replace deads with cleans (easier to recover from) , perform the rows as normal and then add GMs on Friday.

    Basically, it doesn't look too bad but these are things you may want to consider and factor into your decision making.

  10. #600
    Olympian Guinness5.0's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Madcow2

    It's exciting making gains and pushing your lifts up. I think it becomes more rewarding when you have a plan and are executing it session to session and then reap the rewards after it's all said and done. You can tell your original thread has become a pretty big resource and it seems a lot of people are happy with it and the progress they've been making. So if you think about it - you've actually played a pretty big part in making a number of people happier and more successful in their efforts. Pretty positive contribution IMO.
    For sure. Thanks to madcow and bionic big time.

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