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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now! within the Weight Training & Weight Lifting category.

Excerpt: Content by Madcow2 Last Revised 1/11/2006 UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with

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  1. #581
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by lavi
    madcow, a while ago you posted that those with over 2x bodyweight deads should scale down the deads to 3x3 for the duration of the program. i was wondering if it would be a bad idea to change it to 1x3 in the intensity phase so it kind of ramps up like the rest of the program? currently i deadlift 3x bodyweight (i dont weigh too much :P). i would think itd be weird to do 3x3, do 3x3 at the deloading phase, and then continue with the 3x3 no?
    It depends on how much the deadlift contributes to volume and how taxing it is for you. The squats are the primary driver of the total weekly load in this program. You can do the math by multiplying weightXreps for every set for every exercise. Add them up in each week or break each exercise out to see how much of the total % it plays.

    Anyway, I'd go by feel. The dead isn't the primary driver but if this movement is taxing to you and 3x3 for the duration is too much scale it down as needed and if it's a 1x3 format lift than so be it. I'll leave the judegement to you.

  2. #582
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by JL_204
    My friend is going to start the novice version next Monday.
    How long should he stay on this program before he goes to the dual factor?
    I would imagine for as long as he's gaining consistantly, but he sees me doing the dual factor and hes anxious to start. I dont blame him, he used to bench more than me and now im 30 pounds ahead of him.

    BTW hes been training for a year now.
    Read this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...&postcount=235

    It will give you an idea on how these guys handle it.

    Basically, if you can continue to push the weight out on a consistent basis without letting off the gas than go for it. It it starts to crawl cut the volume and frequency for a few weeks and hammer it again. This is what I have a friend doing right now who's just getting back into it. As long as he's making gains, keep the accelerator pressed and take a breather as needed.

  3. #583
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    I'm moving into the deload phase next week and think that I will try the 2x protocol this time around. During the volume phase, I've been doing box-squats on Wednesdays and decided that I like them. As such, for the intensity phase, I am thinking of making them my Monday squat and keeping the Oly squats as my light Wednesday session.

    Currently, my Wednesday box-squat is a shade higher than, but comparable with, my top set of Friday deepsquats, which may have been reckless of me but I seem to have survived, and so I can track the percentages to use for the Weds light squats easily enough.

    Can you see any problems with this that I should be aware of?

  4. #584
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    Madcow, any harm in taking a week off after the 9 week cycle? I usually take a week off every 12 weeks.

    And where do I begin with the poundages after I begin my next cycle?

    Thanks.

  5. #585
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body can take in a week?

    For example, I used to do squats only once per week. Now I do train my legs three times a week using squats.

    day 1: I do squats, 5 sets of 5 reps /w big weights*
    day 2: I do front squats /w big weights
    day 3: I do 5 sets of 5 reps /w medium weights
    (*relatively speaking because 210lbs is big for me)

    The strength of my legs is better. Before, I struggled to do 5 reps of 5 sets to parallel and now I can do the same weight, ass to the grass, with less hardship. Now my legs are bigger and stronger. In conclusion, I'd say that I didn't train my legs with enough volume. My volume has increased by about 2.5 and I made good gains. Right now, I follow the 5x5 exercise template but I don't do the actual dual-factor program. I like to do the compound exercises but im not ready for periodization yet.

    My question to you is...How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body(or body parts) can take in a week? Why 5 sets? how do you know that 5 sets is right and not 4 or 3 sets? For example, if 5 sets is the correct volume, why not do 2 sets of deadlifts on day 1, 2 sets of deads on day 2 and 1 sets of deads one day 3? Volume stays the same, only frequency changes and the muscles stays stimulated throughout the week.

    Thanks

  6. #586
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Blut Wump
    I'm moving into the deload phase next week and think that I will try the 2x protocol this time around. During the volume phase, I've been doing box-squats on Wednesdays and decided that I like them. As such, for the intensity phase, I am thinking of making them my Monday squat and keeping the Oly squats as my light Wednesday session.

    Currently, my Wednesday box-squat is a shade higher than, but comparable with, my top set of Friday deepsquats, which may have been reckless of me but I seem to have survived, and so I can track the percentages to use for the Weds light squats easily enough.

    Can you see any problems with this that I should be aware of?
    I think you are doing it the right way in that your box is the heavier squat. You might not want to put that on Wednesday next time but you're at the point where you have enough experience to not blow everything up and learn as you go so give it a shot. If you are adding bands/chains or anything else - absolutely do not put it on Wednesday.

  7. #587
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by slyder190
    Madcow, any harm in taking a week off after the 9 week cycle? I usually take a week off every 12 weeks.

    And where do I begin with the poundages after I begin my next cycle?

    Thanks.
    Active recovery is usually preferable except in extreme cases or for mental health and a break after a competition. It won't kill you though.

    There is an entire section on setting up your second cycle in my description linked in the TOC: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...&postcount=381
    It's very general and conservative. I don't know how strong you got or where you are at. You need to be breaking records and really pushing in the final two weeks of the first phase. Set your weights according to your best estimate and either adjust on the fly or add an extra week if you need to jump up too much due to strength increase.

  8. #588
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Santa_Claus
    How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body can take in a week?

    For example, I used to do squats only once per week. Now I do train my legs three times a week using squats.

    day 1: I do squats, 5 sets of 5 reps /w big weights*
    day 2: I do front squats /w big weights
    day 3: I do 5 sets of 5 reps /w medium weights
    (*relatively speaking because 210lbs is big for me)

    The strength of my legs is better. Before, I struggled to do 5 reps of 5 sets to parallel and now I can do the same weight, ass to the grass, with less hardship. Now my legs are bigger and stronger. In conclusion, I'd say that I didn't train my legs with enough volume. My volume has increased by about 2.5 and I made good gains. Right now, I follow the 5x5 exercise template but I don't do the actual dual-factor program. I like to do the compound exercises but im not ready for periodization yet.

    My question to you is...How do I determine the right amount exercise volume my body(or body parts) can take in a week? Why 5 sets? how do you know that 5 sets is right and not 4 or 3 sets? For example, if 5 sets is the correct volume, why not do 2 sets of deadlifts on day 1, 2 sets of deads on day 2 and 1 sets of deads one day 3? Volume stays the same, only frequency changes and the muscles stays stimulated throughout the week.

    Thanks
    When you aren't periodizing it's not a question of what can you tolerate for a week or a day or even a month. It's a question of what can you do week in/week out for months on end and not burnout or overly fatigue yourself.

    Take the squats for example: You'll notive the single factor Starr program uses pyramids for all 3 days, the plain vanilla dual factor uses constant set weights on the first 2 days (heavy and light), and when I suggest ways to increase the volume for more advanced lifters in the dual factor program I tell them to gradually transfer the 3rd day of squats, the remaining pyramid, to constant set weights. Basically, Starr's program is designed to be run long term, whereas the others are designed to push someone hard enough to put them into overtraining if they don't cut back periodically. None are better or worse than the other, if you can add weight week to week using the single factor and maybe take a light week or two every few months - ride that horse until it drops. If you are getting good results with the current volume and making steady increases - ride on.

    As for the right amount of volume and frequency, frequency is no where near as important or absolute as BBers make it out to be but there is still some impact where conditioning and efficiency come into play. The dead particularly is nasty because it's a bastard of an exercise and really taxes recovery and the lower back which affects your squats and everything else. You can certainly do a deadlift based program or increase frequency but it's harder to accomodate that lift - look at Korte's 3x3 program where you pull 3x pwer week as well as squat and bench, there is no assistance work at all and this program is ripping hard if you have a good dead: (upper right corner) http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/index.htm

    All that said, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat you just need to be careful. Maybe try experimenting some. Read the other articles at deepsquatter. Take a look at Prilepin's table in my TOC. Here is a link to the Coan/Phillipi Deadlift program, I believe there's even an excel sheet linked for it: http://www.powerpage.net/coanphildead.html

    You are your own coach and there is some science to it (none of this blanked "do what works for you, everyone is different. I do anus squeezes supersetted with kickbacks" bullshit) but in reality it's a blending of science and art. It's a fun hobby and very rewarding on a variety of levels. Dig in.

  9. #589
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Madcow2
    Active recovery is usually preferable except in extreme cases or for mental health and a break after a competition. It won't kill you though.

    There is an entire section on setting up your second cycle in my description linked in the TOC: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...&postcount=381
    It's very general and conservative. I don't know how strong you got or where you are at. You need to be breaking records and really pushing in the final two weeks of the first phase. Set your weights according to your best estimate and either adjust on the fly or add an extra week if you need to jump up too much due to strength increase.
    I read over the link, but I still don't know what percentage of weights to use or anything for the 2 weeks of deloading again you recomend. For example, if my max on bench is say 315 for 1x3 and 275 is my 3x3 bench max, what type of weights would I be using in the lfting regimine in the 2 weeks of the post cycle? Not quite sure I follow what i should be doing altogether. Ami switching to a 2x a week workout schedule? Using 3x3 for given weights or percentages of max weights? Sorry bro, I'm just lost.

    And also, when you're in weeks where you're surpassing previous records, you are going to failure correct? just making sure.

  10. #590
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by slyder190
    I read over the link, but I still don't know what percentage of weights to use or anything for the 2 weeks of deloading again you recomend. For example, if my max on bench is say 315 for 1x3 and 275 is my 3x3 bench max, what type of weights would I be using in the lfting regimine in the 2 weeks of the post cycle? Not quite sure I follow what i should be doing altogether. Ami switching to a 2x a week workout schedule? Using 3x3 for given weights or percentages of max weights? Sorry bro, I'm just lost.
    You kind of need to go by feel. Do you feel like you are overreaching again? If you don't feel like you did in week 4 (Assuming you set the weights right) then take a single week of 2 workouts at 50-65% or some such and begin the volume again. Point being, it should be easy, work on acceleration a bit or something but you want to keep everything low for a week or two before jumping back in. You can also take a light week here and then start the volume phase fairly lightly, this can work. If you are severely burned, you might need two weeks of the 2x per week. I can't really help you more than that, it's science but it's also a bit of art and since I'm not you and I don't have any reference for you the best thing you can do is go by feel. THat's why I'm always stressing for people to pay attention, be conservative, and learn in their first run through. The more data you have, the better decisions you can make.

    Quote Quote posted by slyder190
    And also, when you're in weeks where you're surpassing previous records, you are going to failure correct? just making sure.
    Absolutely not. Failure may occur in that you don't get your target number for that week but it is not the goal and you certainly don't want to be setting numbers where you are blowing every single exercise. Nothing special about failure or magic in that last rep - except for the fact that it burns the CNS significantly. Concentrate on getting better and pushing your weights up. Push yourself hard (but be somewhat realistic and willing to adjust), if you fail in week 3, carry the weight forward a week.

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