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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now! within the Weight Training & Weight Lifting category.

Excerpt: Content by Madcow2 Last Revised 1/11/2006 UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with

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  1. #551
    Amateur Bodybuilder JL_204's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    thanks madcow i will do that. Mondays and fridays seem to be okay, its wednesdays that are really killing me....specifically the deads and pull ups. Pulling movements seem to be way more taxing for me compared to pushing.
    I guess well see what happens in the deload phaes when i drop the wednesday squat.

  2. #552
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    Due to possible problems with my back (need to get an MRI), and the fact that it's overly used during my job, I plan to run the routine again, only this time without squats. Yes, I know it's frowned upon. However, I didn't make too large of gains in way of size this time around, due to lack of consistency with diet, for various reasons.

    In any case, I want to make sure I stick to my meal plan this time, and see if I can come out with some more thickness on my upper body. In all honesty, strength is what I'm concerned with for my lower body, and I'm eighteen. I have plenty of time to work on it. 'sides, my upper body is lagging in terms of size, and I wanna get it up to, what I think is par.

    Anyways, I know that the total fatigue is what really matters, in terms of loading and unloading. That being said, I figured that I could use 5x5 for benching and rowing on Monday and Friday. Along with 5x5 for three exercises on Wednesday, that gives me a total of 175 reps a week. With squats, and using the 1x5 approach on opposing days, you wind up with 190 total reps a week. In other words, the total accrued fatigue seems rather close, and my job drains me enough.

    The reason for doing this is so I can avoid screwing up my job, and my back. I'll give it a go through one cycle, work on what I think is most important, and then once I get an MRI, jump right back into squatting.

  3. #553
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Counting reps isn't really the best way. Use weight x reps for every set and add it all up for everything during the week. This will give you total pounds applied over a period which is a better proxy for load (actually it is load but but sometimes reality is different than pounds i.e. adding up the massive weight you can legpress and assuming it is comparable to the squat).

    There are a lot of ways of doing it really (some only count 80-85% or greater intensities, some OL programs only bother calculating the full lifts). The jist of it is that squatting is a lot more fatiguing than a pullup or press so total reps isn't the best way to think about it. Let me tell you that if you do the math and subtract the squatting load from the total load over the course of the volume phase - it's a damn big number and the squat is a very stimulative exercise so in reality I'd view the number of pounds you calc for squatting as a very conservative estimate of their true contribution.

  4. #554
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    Yeah, I took that into account. I didn't want to calculate that much though, so I did it quick in my head. In any case, I can't see how I wouldn't make gains still. I agree that squats can be a good exercise to add total body mass, due to the stimulative effect it has, but you won't get a thicker upper body with just squatting - the other stuff is the meat and potatoes. That's how I feel, anyway. I figure I'll give it one solid run without squats. Should I make no progress, then I'll just make sure never to make that mistake again. However, if I make some nice gains, then I'll know where I stood was correct.

    Of couse, I'll miss squatting anyway, but for now this is a more viable option. I can also throw in a few other things if I really wanted to load myself more. I may run sprints, actually. That will certainly wear me down - maybe worse than squats.

  5. #555

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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    I'm gonna start next week and I've figured out most of my 1X5 maxes. Here they are:

    Bench 295X5
    Row 185X5
    Military 135X5 (standing)
    Squat 250X5
    Deadlift 255X5

    Here's the plan the loading
    MON...............Week 1.........Week2........Week3........Week4........W eek5
    Squat (5X5).......205..............215............225... .........235...........235(3X3)
    Bench (1X5).......275..............285............295... .........305...........305(1X3)
    Row (1X5)..........165..............175............185 ............195...........195(1X3)

    WENS
    Squat (speed).....160..............165.............170.. ..........170............
    Deadlift (5X5)......210..............220.............230... .........240.........240(3x3)
    Military (5X5).......100..............110.............120.. ..........130.........130(3X3)
    Pullups (5X5)........__................__..............___ ............___.........__(3X3)

    FRI
    Squat (1X5).........230..............240.............250 ............260........260(1X3)
    Bench (5X5).........245..............255.............265 ............275........275(3X3)
    Row (5X5)............145..............155............. 165............175........175(3X3)

    I'll wait and see how it's going before planning the deloading phase. How does this look so far?
    Last edited by soccergrub; 27-May-2005 at 12:07 AM.

  6. #556
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    Work on the squat. I'm surprised your bench is higher. Not meant to be cruel, by the by. Just saying, it's odd to see a bench higher than a squat. I'm guessing you started squatting after benching.

  7. #557
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    1) week 1 seems close to your maxes. It costs very little to be conservative and starting high is the best way to blow the program.

    2) I'm guessing weeks 4/5 are both loading? If so, the weight should go up for the 2nd week. The final 2 weeks are the real key to this phase. If you want week 5 to be deloading you need to change the protocol to the next phase (maybe this is why the weights don't move - except military which goes up 10lbs?)

    3) You need to be running a squat based program. Your bench is totally out of proportion. You also need to get your row up within some reasonable range of your bench. This is long-term stuff but that bench is head and shoulders over your squat and dead. I don't mean to dump on you but typically someone hitting raw benches of in the 300 range should be squatting in the 400s at a minimum (deads should be there too). You will be amazed at what this type of training does for your physique - your bench will likely go up too just from improvement in the rest.

  8. #558

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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Tom Treutlein
    Work on the squat. I'm surprised your bench is higher. Not meant to be cruel, by the by. Just saying, it's odd to see a bench higher than a squat. I'm guessing you started squatting after benching.
    Yeah, I know. That's one of the main reasons I picked this program....its emphasis on the squat. I really don't give a sh*t about increasing my bench right now but I'll take some gains .


    I am coming back from a 6 year layoff and have been working out steady since Jan. Yes, upper body definitely was a greater emphasis then but not anymore. I'll bring the deadlift and the squat up, it's just gonna take a while.

  9. #559

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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Madcow2
    1) week 1 seems close to your maxes. It costs very little to be conservative and starting high is the best way to blow the program.

    2) I'm guessing weeks 4/5 are both loading? If so, the weight should go up for the 2nd week. The final 2 weeks are the real key to this phase. If you want week 5 to be deloading you need to change the protocol to the next phase (maybe this is why the weights don't move - except military which goes up 10lbs?)

    3) You need to be running a squat based program. Your bench is totally out of proportion. You also need to get your row up within some reasonable range of your bench. This is long-term stuff but that bench is head and shoulders over your squat and dead. I don't mean to dump on you but typically someone hitting raw benches of in the 300 range should be squatting in the 400s at a minimum (deads should be there too). You will be amazed at what this type of training does for your physique - your bench will likely go up too just from improvement in the rest.
    Thanks for the reply.
    1) I'm pretty confident I can handle these intensities but I'll keep your advie in mind and adjust as necessary.
    2) I edited my original post its was supposed to be the first week of deloading, sorry.
    3) Couldn't agree more. My squat used to be better but it's taking longer to come back than my bench. Too much focus on benching in my early days have led to these imbalances but I aim to fix them.

  10. #560
    Da Pope blut wump's Avatar
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

    Quote Quote posted by Tom Treutlein
    Yeah, I took that into account. I didn't want to calculate that much though, so I did it quick in my head. In any case, I can't see how I wouldn't make gains still. I agree that squats can be a good exercise to add total body mass, due to the stimulative effect it has, but you won't get a thicker upper body with just squatting - the other stuff is the meat and potatoes. That's how I feel, anyway. I figure I'll give it one solid run without squats. Should I make no progress, then I'll just make sure never to make that mistake again. However, if I make some nice gains, then I'll know where I stood was correct.

    Of couse, I'll miss squatting anyway, but for now this is a more viable option. I can also throw in a few other things if I really wanted to load myself more. I may run sprints, actually. That will certainly wear me down - maybe worse than squats.
    You could plan yourself one or two one-month mesocycles to concentrate on your upper body. You could still have squats in there but maybe at a higher rep-range or even try some squat variants like box squats which might stress your posterior chain less or in a fashion which conflicts less with your job.

    I'm just not convinced that you'll thank yourself for dropping squats entirely. If nothing else, high-rep squats are good whole-body warm up.

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