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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

QUESTION-Im on week 8, and I was looking over my log, and noticed something. It seems I somehow SKIPPED my "Day 1" workout for this week. Ive been out of town for 2 days, and I did my "Day 2" workout before we left (deads, military, pullups), but it was really time for my day 1 workout. My question, would it be more beneficial for me to just move on to my "Day 3" w/o, or go back and make up for the missed day? Either way its gonna throw mw off, but what do you think, Madcow? LMK, Im headin to the gym this afternoon....
Bionic :worried:
 
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My gut feeling on this in week 8 would be for you to do your day1 workout and then take an extra day out above your normal day2 to day3 gap before doing your day3.

Extra days of rest at that stage aren't a bad thing and might help you get though week 9 in good shape.
 
Thought I would contribute to this thread. by re-posting the program and an explanation by Glen Pendlay himself.
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=498&st=20
Hi,

actually there are two different 5x5 programs. One is the quoted from Matt Reynolds (I hope this is correct), and the other is from "Madcow".

Matts 5x5:

Monday (heavy)
Squats 5x5, same weight
Bench 5x5, same weight
Rows 5x5, same weight

Wednesday (light)
Squats 5x5, same weights, but weight is about 20-30% lighter than monday
Military Press 5x5, same weight
Deadlifts 5x5, same weight
Chins 5x5, same weight

Friday (medium)
Squats 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight
(other) Bench 5x5, same weight
(other) Rows 5x5, same weight


You start with about 80% from the 5RM on mondays. Progress over the weeks and set new records at the 3rd or 4th week.
Then you switch to the 3x3 and 2 days per week (where only monday and wednesday units are done, perhaps on monday and thursday).

Example:
1st week, 5x5, 200 lbs
2st week, 5x5, 205 lbs
3rd week, 5x5, 210 lbs
4th week, 5x5, 215 lbs

5th week, 3x3, 220 lbs
6th week, 3x3, 225 lbs
7th week, 3x3, 230 lbs
8th week, 3x3, 235 lbs

After that you can start again with the 5x5 and more weights, perhaps 210, or you can peak out with triples, doubles, singles. That is described in the link.


Madcow:

Monday (heavy)
Squats 5x5, same weight
Bench 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight
Rows 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight

Wednesday (light)
Squats 5x5, same weights, but weight is about 20-30% lighter than monday
Military Press 5x5, same weight
Deadlifts 5x5, same weight
Chins 5x5, same weight

Friday (medium)
Squats 5 sets pyramiding up, the last 1x5 with max weight
(other) Bench 5x5, same weight
(other) Rows 5x5, same weight



5x5 for 4 weeks, 1 week 3x3 with the last 5x5 weights, and then 3x3 for 4 weeks.

Example:
1st week, 5x5, 200 lbs
2st week, 5x5, 205 lbs
3rd week, 5x5, 210 lbs
4th week, 5x5, 215 lbs

5th week, 3x3, 215 lbs

6th week, 3x3, 220 lbs
7th week, 3x3, 225 lbs
8th week, 3x3, 230 lbs
9th week, 3x3, 235 lbs

And then start over, or peak out with triples, doubles, singles.


Both handle with the delayed long term effect, so that the major growth and strength increases come at the 4th till 8th week.


explanation of different 5 sets of 5 program.

there are really so damn many ways to squat, even to squat with 5 sets of 5, or 6 sets of 4, or 4 sets of 6, or any similar thing, that there is not really any one program... im always hesitant to even write it out as a "program" becasue i dont really know what we will be doing in 4 weeks when we start such a thing... it kind of adapts as it goes.

but there seems to be some confusion as to the pyramid version or the non-pyramid version, so ill try to briefly explain the differences.

the EASIEST method we use for squats, and the one which rip used for beginners, is a simple pyramid program, the weights are pyramided BOTH monday and friday... and another leg exercise is used for wednesday, usually front squats for the young and athletically minded, sometimes leg press for the old and feeble.

say a person tests at 200lbs for 5 reps on their initial workout. well then monday they might do the following sets for 5 reps, 95, 125, 155, 185, 205. fairly equal jumps, ending with a 5lb personal record. if the last set is successfull, then on friday they will go for 210 on their last set, with adjustments on the other sets to keep the jumps about even as needed.

the average beginner can stay on this exact simple program for anywhere from 4 weeks to 4 months, as long as they continue to improve at least 5lbs a week, most can do this for quite a while.

when they stop improving, the first thing he does is to drop a couple of the "warmup" sets down to one or two reps, to decrease fatigue and allow a few more personal records on the top set... so that 200lb top set of 5 workout at this point would at this point have the 155lb set at maybe 3 reps, and the 185lb set at one or two reps, then try for 5 at 205.

this change usually lets people get new personal records for another 2-3 weeks, sometimes more.

at some point, of course, this doesnt work anymore. so now we change the monday workout to 5 sets of 5, still with heavy front squats or for some lighter back squats on wednesday, and the same pyramid on friday, trying for one top set of 5. the 5 sets on monday with the same weiight will be some amount less than the current personal record for one set of 5.

usually with this raise in volume, the weights are set somewhat lighter than they were, and people are given a few weeks to work back to their personal records, then try to go past them, invariably they will pass them, and invariably eventually they will stall again...

at this point we usually lower the volume of training, raise the intensity, in some form we will go with lower reps, lower amounts of sets, cut out a day of squatting, something to allow a raising of the numbers... again, the numbers will raise for a while, then stall again.

a this point, another raise in volume is needed, and at this point we will go to the program that most usually associate with the "5 by 5"... squatting 5 sets of 5 with the same weight 3 times a week, lighter on wednesday and heavier on mon and fri. you are all familiar with this i think, we raise the volume for 2-4 weeks, then slowly cut the volume aned intensity of most workouts, going for a big workout every 1-2 weeks, might be a single, a single set of 5, or even one big 5 sets of 5 workout. with people cycling down for a big contest at thsi point we might go for lower reps and try for the big singles.... with someone not at a place where a big peak is needed, its just cycling down to less sets but keeping the reps at 5, and trying to make a pr on a set of 5. this can be repeated several times over and over, but at some point you have to have a period of lower intensity training for a while in between cycles.

i will add that often, for the people with higher goals who want to really train hard, i will start right in with the 15 hard sets a week version, but with weights low enough that they can endure it, and when they get in condition and get used to the volume, will then go back and start at the normal place where rip starts right from the beginning. i find that people who have been athletically active, who have been training on other programs, etc, usually do well with an initial 4-8 weeks of high volume lower intensity training to get them mentally and physically used to this sort of training, get their form changed to a good squat, etc.

this post describes as much as a year of training for most people, with some that adapt well it is stretched to two years.... two years from when they start their initial "pyramid" workouts, or their initial month or so of conditioning with 15 moderate sets a week to when they get through their first real cycle with heavy weights and 15 sets a week cycled down to a peak.



it seems simple. it is.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

FYI - Glenn's explanation is on the previous page already. But thanks for providing that. I actually didn't realize that the program I use differed from Matt's by other than the 2 vs. 3 day. Then again, I'm not sure if that's just his illustration of the squat program layered on. Maybe I should read the first page of my own thread and see exactly what I quoted - come to think of it this might explain a bit of confusion that I've been noticing.

The only actual significant difference between Matt's and my 5x5 varriances is that I'm also using a 1x5/1x3 protocol on the Row and Bench not just the squat. With the required pyramid on those days volume isn't impacted severely and high intensity can be used during the weeks. It probably results in greater strength progression in those lifts during the peaking phase.

Also, I've tended to use a 3 day intensity/deload period whereas Matt uses the 2 day variation explained on page 1 of this thread. The 3 day is generally too much for most people and will require cutting some volume, using extra days of rest, or being more careful to accomodate this into the weight progression. Generally a combination might prove most effective as the 3 day tends to starts to wear down people again towards the end if followed to the letter which tends to be what happens.

They are both based off exactly the same base programs and it's just a bit of difference in implementation - which as Glenn noted can vary widely. That said, many have found it exceedingly frustrating that people (generally BBers - sorry guys) want to just totally bastardize and cripple the core framework of this thing in their effort to "customize" it (read: make it shitty like all the other programs). So, we tend to write it up with the explicit purpose of having it followed without much varriance so that people don't kill it. Once they've tried it, it's generally a non-issue after that point as they see the value in it not being like the more commonly found BBeresque programs.
 
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Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

BionicBC said:
QUESTION-Im on week 8, and I was looking over my log, and noticed something. It seems I somehow SKIPPED my "Day 1" workout for this week. Ive been out of town for 2 days, and I did my "Day 2" workout before we left (deads, military, pullups), but it was really time for my day 1 workout. My question, would it be more beneficial for me to just move on to my "Day 3" w/o, or go back and make up for the missed day? Either way its gonna throw mw off, but what do you think, Madcow? LMK, Im headin to the gym this afternoon....
Bionic :worried:

Well - it's a record day so you don't want to just skip it. I'd do Day 1 and take a few days and then hit Day 3 take another 2 days then you will be back to Day 1 again (not set in stone - take what you feel you need). Some extra days at this point will likely do you well and set you up for week 9 nicely. Plus, if you are and have been training heavy - you won't be as burned post week 9.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

GhettoStudMuffin said:
So I take it from those 2 snippets above that a good way to set up the next year's worth of training for me would be:

9 weeks
DFHT-madcow2's

2/1/2/1/2/1/2 weeks
Bill Starr

9 weeks
DFHT-madcow2's

2/1/2/1/2/1/2
Bill Starr

5x5-bill starr, 2 weeks volume loading, 1 week deload, 2 week intensity pr, repeat?

So like 2 weeks strict 5x5, followed by 3x3 week deload, then like 1x5 pr's instead of 5x5 pr's for 2 intensity weeks and lose a squat day which cuts volume way down, then deload a week again and restart at volume for 2 cycles back to back, then go back to madcow2's routine again?

That's kinda what I'm getting from reading those posts on how to organize my training.

I can't get on meso-rx anymore for some reason, but I could also switch between the Bill Starr program on that board and the madcow2 variation right? I can't remember if the Bill Starr version had dual-factor applied to it.

The Bill Starr version on meso was just a general layout. Mine should be almost exactly the same if not the same as what JS182 has applied there. The difference is not going to be so significant that it makes it a different workout at all. Shit, what you guys call "my variation" is basically just one of his anyway.

Switching between Animalmass' Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training and the 5x5 works nicely especially since it allows for more direct assistance work to address specific issues in the lifts. I'm not sure what you mean by the Bill Starr 1/2/1/2....You might benefit a lot more by doing something a bit different -- it just seems like you have a lot of the same programs listed as different programs stacked in there. I'm not really sure if I'm misinterpretting. The 5x5 makes a nice base, DFHT is a great alternate for a variety of reasons, you can always plan your own meso or microcycles to further specialize between these and address issues. Something else to consider would be your goals - what is important to you and where do you want to be 6 months to a year from now.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Madcow2 said:
Well - it's a record day so you don't want to just skip it. I'd do Day 1 and take a few days and then hit Day 3 take another 2 days then you will be back to Day 1 again (not set in stone - take what you feel you need). Some extra days at this point will likely do you well and set you up for week 9 nicely. Plus, if you are and have been training heavy - you won't be as burned post week 9.
Thanx. I would give K, but it seems Im not allowed to give you anymore 'till I spread. Thanx again bro.
Bionic :)
 
No prob 19/20 times I try to give K, I'm in the same boat. Very frustrating that I have to give it to random shitty posts to be able to award someone for making a truly good and insightful post. I imagine this spread issue comes from the chat board.
 
Mad, Debaser, Tom,

Many thanks for the thoughts, gentlemen, and my apologies that I've not responded to this sooner.

I played with some percentages to try and map out a potential 5x5 cycle. Though I don't know my proper 5x5 max (I'd have to guess it'd be a little lower than my 8 RM), I figured that starting -25% would be perhaps a bit too conservative; OTOH, a 20% initial reduction might be biting off too much.

The only way to know for sure is to just give the thing a ride sometime, which I intend to do :)

One small thing: I like barbell rows, but I absolutely love doing T-Bars in a corner. The ROM is a bit short next to BB Rows--my gym doesn't have 35 lbers., and 25 lbers. aren't heavy enough--but I've always noticed decent results with the T-Bar. What do you think of using them in lieu of BB Rows?

Ooops, I lied--another small thing. I might also have a hard time choosing between chins and an exercise I call "rounded-back cable rows." While I know chins are great and I like 'em just fine, probably the best lat movements I've ever done is the aforementioned row. It's a cable row with a twist: throughout the exercise, you keep your body in a position similar to the very bottom of a SLDL. I use a V-handle attachment and pull the weight as close to my body as I can, usually just above my knees.

It sounds foo-foo, I know; and to sorta answer my own question, I'd probably favor chins in a 5x5, myself.

Still, someone please try this exercise and see what you think of it not just in a 5x5, but any training context. Don't expect to use anywhere near what you'd do in a regular crap...err, "cable" row ;) Try it with a very light weight, say 100 lbs. or so, and knock out 15-20 smooth reps just to get the feel of the thing.

If nothing else, I'm curious to know if anyone else likes how they feel half as much as I do :D
 
One thing to keep in mind is that a movement can "feel" great but not produce great results. To be honest, I think cable rows feel very good and I can really feel them working the muscles but a few months down the road barbell rows leave them in the dust when it comes to hypertrophy and strength. The 5x5 really focuses around using the best exercises and I'd caution any substitutions that aren't of the very heavy free weight variety i.e. high pulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, incline BB for standing military - this is what I have in mind. In addition a movement can feel great with very light weight but the weight applied to the system is part of the stimulus - this is why barbell curls work much better than concentration curls and also why the dead and squat are so damn effective.

As far as rows, there's a good thread here that lists the proper way to do them - acceleration throughout the rep, back as close to 90 degrees as you can get it. Towards the bottom of the first page is what I and many others consider to be the most effective row where it is performed dynamically from the floor. http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601
 
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