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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!

Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Boss101 said:
I've been reading this thread for the last few days and I just want to make sure I have the routine right.

If my max bb row is 1x5 for 200

In week 1 I would start off lighter and work up to and try to beat my max. So on Mon my rows each week would look something like this.

week 1 pyramid up to 160
week 2 pyramid up to 180
week 3 pyramid up to 200
week 4 pyramid up and set a new record

If I get 210 in week 4, week 5 on Mon would be 1x3 210.



When I start back on the volume phase I would put my record weight of 210 in week 3, start lighter in weeks 1-2 and set a new record in week 4?

Is this right?

Yes and no. You have everything right up until here:

"If my 3 rep max on the bb row is 225. I wouldn't ramp correct? I would look at week 4 weights and add 5-10 and go from there trying to add weight each workout for the next 4 weeks?"

You are still ramping to records - unless you are dealing with really light weights where you don't have plates to match the required ramp (or the gap between your best 5 and best 3 is very small) you are still ramping. For week 5 you switch to 3x3 and drop the Wednesday squat. You are going to be very thankful for this week. After that you are ramping upward to records in 3x3 and 1x3. There should be enough room to continue to move the weight up.

Also - this is the way I want you to run the records the first time with your previous best on week 3 and exceed it on week 4. The reason being that if you start too high you can't ramp the weights and the load is too much too soon basically botching the program so conservatism pays off. That said, once you have a relevant max (let's say you run this program a second time) you want to best it on week 3 and 4 (after all, it's not a new record if you don't push it up). So if going into the program with a 200 max, you might do 165, 185, 205, 215 for example weeks 1,2,3,4 respectively. Don't do this the first time though as people historically overshoot which is why I harp on it. Alternatively those not used to the program can run the initial phase for 6 weeks starting much lighter and progressing to records in weeks 5/6 before deloading and continuing on to the Intensity. It might look like 100, 135, 165, 185, 200*, 210* where * indicated records.

Boss101 said:
Question about exercises selection.

1) Could I do sumo deadlift instead of conventional deadlift?

2) Why are military presses done standing? I've always done them seated are standing better? How do you recommend to do them. From vids and pics online some people lower to their chin and others to their chest. Should I keep my elbows out or close to my body?

3) I tried the bb row from the floor yesterday. Even though the weight was light I was having a hard time keeping my head, I should be looking up and not down?

1) Yes, although I believe that for general athletics and development the conventional is the supperior developer although most people find that sumo provides the best functional use of existing strength.

2) Far better full body exercise due to stability required to press overhead. A lot lower likelyhood of turning it into an incline too. The low point depends a lot upon how long one's forearms are. If you have long arms your low point is much less advantageous for pressing than someone elses. That said, always aim for full range of motion but don't kill yourself - do what's comfortable. Elbows don't matter much it will largely be a function of your hand placement as there's less varriance for your elbows overhead than on the bench. Do what feels best.

3) Well, for the dynamic rows - part of the exercise is in arching the back with both the lats and the errectors while rowing. When you go from starting to arch your head generally moves. I'm not advocating looking down at all (you will almost certainly round badly) but it's often helpful to start with your head looking out and forward and then initiate by arching which leads the head up (it's all attached to the same spine so it goes together). It's tough to describe, I never really broke it down like that but it should do the job. Let me know if you have issues. (also, to do this you need to be rowing with 135 or have full sized lighter discs). Also key is to accelerate the row into you just like an oar in the water where the rower is always pulling as hard as possible which continuously accelerates the oar. I think I have a Bolded Article a few pages back on the importance of acceleration in strength, hypertrophy and stimulating a training response.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Hey really like this program...but one of the things thats holding me back from starting is my current avaliable day split...I am only able to get to the gym- Wed, Thurs, Sat and Sun....And as you can tell theres no way to make up any split like the m,w,f one proposed...would it be ok to do a wed, thurs, sat? or something to that effect? I'm not making excuses for the days I cannot make it to the gym...my gym closes at 11...and with school and work, and going into the city every day...theres no way to do it on the three days i havent mentioned...thanks so much in advance...
-Matt
 
Yeah you can do it. I'm not going to tell you it's optimal but it will still run fine. Once you get into the program post back and let people know how you are doing with it
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

I was just curious....since I am not able to (scared to) do Military Press (shoulder surgery, dislocation) I saw you suggested Incline Press for this? Incline Chest Press? Would a Hammer Strength Chest Plate Loaded Incline Machine be sufficient (ive noticed your disdain for machines, but sometimes this helps me with my shoulder.)

Also how much time would you reccommend to rest in between the sets of 5x5? 2-3 mins? ex: 1 set bench, rest 2mins, 2nd set bench, rest...etc

Thanks in advance
-matt
 
Last edited:
I answered the last two below:

Well, machines just aren't a good stimulus. That's the bottom line. I don't disdain them at all and feel that they can serve very well in a rehab scenario or one where someone suffers from a specific imbalance that is impeding them from progress in the more core lifts. I use them for this purpose and they've served me very well.

Now for building muscle or strength - they're shit. Pure and simple, no bones about it. They just don't work well and the stimulus is poor. I can take a super disciplined individual with phenomenal work ethic and a lazy bastard who goes through the motions. I give them the same workout with the lazy bastard on free weights and the superdiciplinarian on machine variations. Guess what. Mr. Lazy Bastard is gonna blow past the guy in results.

So if I'm going to spend time in the gym I'm going to use the best equipment for me to get from point A to B in the most expedicious manner. More often than not, that means mostly free weights unless I have a special requirement.

Now Hammer Strength I do happen to disdain. Beautiful equipment but if I'm using a machine I want to be as lazy as possible and those things make you load plates onto a machine. If I'm moving around tonnage I'm using free weights. Most of the hypertrophy in natural lifters caused by Hammer is no doubt from moving the plates around. I'm half joking here but you get my point. I'm not the only one who holds this opinion on machines - it is fairly universal although there are some excelent specialty machines out there like glute/ham raise, reverse hyper etc...

When I suggested Inclines it was incline barbell presses. I'd be more concerned with rehabing your shoulder and ensuring it's strong again. I've had a dislocation in the past and just healed up a torn labrum recently (neither lifting related). What a whore shoulders are. I'd work light and try to get that puppy back in shape. Hell, I couldn't press over 135 for 7 months without searing pain. Believe me, I know the shoulder deal and those injuries take a long time to heal.

You do what you have to do but make no mistake that the stimulus suffers in orders of magnitude from using a machine variant.

As for shoulders hurting on flat bench. I honestly think the best substitute is a slight incline bench which is a bit more healthy on the body. Dumbells are good but the issue is that you can't apply as much weight to the system so the stimulus for general growth tends to be weaker although for specialty work there can certainly be a rational as dumbells are miles ahead of machines and just a bit behind barbells for general purposes.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

sounds good...yeah i've had no luck with shoulders...I had a left shoulder repair because it was slipping...which I tried to rehab back...still with pain when I lift...then dislocated the right...ive had no luck...but i truly believe that my pain comes from doing a lot of reps in a row...my shoulder would start to hurt on the 7-10 rep part of a normal work out...not really weight dependent more of a frequency dependent thing...which is why I'm trying to turn to a different work out where less reps, higher weight may work better for me...or my shoulder might fall out...i'm not quite sure how my theory holds hehe
-Matt

Madcow2 said:
I answered the last two below:

Well, machines just aren't a good stimulus. That's the bottom line. I don't disdain them at all and feel that they can serve very well in a rehab scenario or one where someone suffers from a specific imbalance that is impeding them from progress in the more core lifts. I use them for this purpose and they've served me very well.

Now for building muscle or strength - they're shit. Pure and simple, no bones about it. They just don't work well and the stimulus is poor. I can take a super disciplined individual with phenomenal work ethic and a lazy bastard who goes through the motions. I give them the same workout with the lazy bastard on free weights and the superdiciplinarian on machine variations. Guess what. Mr. Lazy Bastard is gonna blow past the guy in results.

So if I'm going to spend time in the gym I'm going to use the best equipment for me to get from point A to B in the most expedicious manner. More often than not, that means mostly free weights unless I have a special requirement.

Now Hammer Strength I do happen to disdain. Beautiful equipment but if I'm using a machine I want to be as lazy as possible and those things make you load plates onto a machine. If I'm moving around tonnage I'm using free weights. Most of the hypertrophy in natural lifters caused by Hammer is no doubt from moving the plates around. I'm half joking here but you get my point. I'm not the only one who holds this opinion on machines - it is fairly universal although there are some excelent specialty machines out there like glute/ham raise, reverse hyper etc...

When I suggested Inclines it was incline barbell presses. I'd be more concerned with rehabing your shoulder and ensuring it's strong again. I've had a dislocation in the past and just healed up a torn labrum recently (neither lifting related). What a whore shoulders are. I'd work light and try to get that puppy back in shape. Hell, I couldn't press over 135 for 7 months without searing pain. Believe me, I know the shoulder deal and those injuries take a long time to heal.

You do what you have to do but make no mistake that the stimulus suffers in orders of magnitude from using a machine variant.

As for shoulders hurting on flat bench. I honestly think the best substitute is a slight incline bench which is a bit more healthy on the body. Dumbells are good but the issue is that you can't apply as much weight to the system so the stimulus for general growth tends to be weaker although for specialty work there can certainly be a rational as dumbells are miles ahead of machines and just a bit behind barbells for general purposes.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

Berkiebtvs said:
sounds good...yeah i've had no luck with shoulders...I had a left shoulder repair because it was slipping...which I tried to rehab back...still with pain when I lift...then dislocated the right...ive had no luck...but i truly believe that my pain comes from doing a lot of reps in a row...my shoulder would start to hurt on the 7-10 rep part of a normal work out...not really weight dependent more of a frequency dependent thing...which is why I'm trying to turn to a different work out where less reps, higher weight may work better for me...or my shoulder might fall out...i'm not quite sure how my theory holds hehe
-Matt

I think your theory has a major issue. This is not my area of expertise but you might want to run this symptom by an orthopedist - preferably someone with a lot of sports experience.

When doing reps the weakest link in the chain begins to fail first and then gets carried by the others. That gradual pain sounds like there might be a lot of weakness in the interior shoulder muscles relative to the exterior muscles involved in the lift. I can't say for sure if this is true in your scenario but obviously it's not the range of motion or a specific position - it is fatigue related in some way. It might also be certain interior muscles failing which then aggrivates something else in the shoulder as the alignment changes post small muscle-failure as the reps continue and your body shifts the alignment to a more mechanically advantageous angle.

This is all conjecture but this is something that you want to address. If you drop the rep range and have weak interrior muscles the failure could be far more dramatic rather than gradual and leave you with another injury.
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

what % of your 1RM did u guys start with for your first week of the 5x5 days?

between 60-75%? is htat a good place to start
 
Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

what % of your 1RM did u guys start with for your first week of the 5x5 days?

between 60-75%? is htat a good place to start
 
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