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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now! within the Weight Training & Weight Lifting category.

Excerpt: Content by Madcow2 Last Revised 1/11/2006 UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with

Read more or register here to join the discussion below...

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  1. #1491
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Just did a test run for the 1st workout using the 5x5 program.... Need a ton of help !!!!

    I Downloaded the excell sheet... Plugged in the working weight until it matched my 1RM in the other block..
    checked 1st workout numbers below and put in my workout log book

    Now onto the workout.
    Bench seemed really really easy for all 5 sets..
    Squat seemed really really easy for all 5 sets...
    Row got really hard on 4rd set (couldnt finish all reps) only got 3 reps on fourth and 5th set

    Is the 1st week supposed to be easy? ?
    should i adjust the weight that the exersises were really easy a little?


    Can i add shrugs, delts, forearms, rotatorcuffs into the program without sacrificing the programs effectiveness?
    thanks
    BB
    p.s. And how much does the Dam bar weigh on the smith machine with the guide bar? im guessing 25lbs.
    Last edited by brownbrown; 08-Jul-2011 at 12:23 PM.

  2. #1492
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    bump?

  3. #1493

    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    Just did a test run for the 1st workout using the 5x5 program.... Need a ton of help !!!!
    It is obvious from your post that you have not written a single word Madcow wrote. At a minimum, read every word on his site -- preferably two or three times -- then go through and read this entire thread. Every single one of your questions has been answered repeatedly already. This board won't let me post a link to his website, so just do a Google search for "Madcow Training Information Site" with the quotation marks and it will be the first link to pop up. As Madcow himself wrote:

    Quote Quote posted by madcow2
    if you are going to devote hours and hours over weeks and weeks to a program, please take 10-15 minutes to actually read this page and understand it. That's a retarded method of saving time. Also, you will find it hugely useful to read the Training PrimerI put together. You will understand so much more about training in general if you read it. Honestly, save yourself years of learning and spend 10-15 minutes reading that page. Hell just print it out and leave it in the bathroom. Within a couple days, you'll have it finished and you will be so much further ahead than so many others. Also, please make sure to read the Possible Issues section below - don't be a nimrod.
    I couldn't have said it any better myself.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    I Downloaded the excell sheet... Plugged in the working weight until it matched my 1RM in the other block..
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Stop what you are doing, go to the gym, and dedicate two workouts to determining your true, current 5RM for all the basic lifts. Not your estimated 5RM, not your 1RM, not what you hope it will be in a year, your true 5RM. Then enter that value in the spreadsheet. In fact, just to be safe, enter a value between 90% and 95% of your 5RM. I can tell you from hard experience that if you try entering higher values -- say, your 1RM -- the program will be entirely too aggressive and you will fail. As Madcow says over and over, check your ego at the door and be conservative. You are far more likely to have success with this program by entering lower weights. Starting out too heavy is a guaranteed recipe for failure.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    Is the 1st week supposed to be easy? ?
    Of course it is. You are not supposed to hit your current maxes until Week 4 at least. There should not be the slightest doubt that you will make all your reps -- and easily -- within this period. If you are failing on any exercise at any time during this period, you started out too heavy and need to start over. Period. Plenty of people, including myself, have had success adding two extra loading weeks onto the program and not hitting their maxes until Week 6. In fact, if this is your first time on the program, I strongly suggest you do just that. The loading period gives you a chance to recover, accustom yourself to the volume, and gain momentum for the PR period, which gets mind-numbingly difficult after a few weeks. (Hardly anyone makes it past Week 9 without stalling on at least one lift.) Again, this has been explained ad nauseam in the past.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    Can i add shrugs, delts, forearms, rotatorcuffs into the program without sacrificing the programs effectiveness?
    Why are you trying to change the program before you have even given it a chance? Just do the program as written, and if after doing your compound lifts in Week 9 you have the energy to do anything but drag yourself home to bed, then you can think about adding extra volume. Of course the program seems easy at first -- if it weren't, you wouldn't make any progress on it. Trust me, it gets crushingly difficult fast. Stick to the plan. It is time tested and it works.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    And how much does the Dam bar weigh on the smith machine with the guide bar? im guessing 25lbs.
    Why are you using the Smith machine? This is a free-weight barbell program. With the Smith machine you are just asking for severe back problems, and probably knee injuries into the bargain, because it forces your body into an unnatural path of movement. Even if you are lucky enough not to injure yourself using that abomination of a device, you will not achieve remotely the same kind of gains you would get from barbell squatting. If your gym does not have a power rack, or at least a squat stand, cancel your membership and go elsewhere.

    Follow the program. It has worked for over 40 years for thousands of others. It will work for you.

    By the way, I have gained 11 kg (23 lbs) of solid muscle in less than 4 months doing nothing but this program as written. My only "supplement" has been the time-tested GOMAD (gallon of whole milk a day). I have had to throw away almost all my pants because I can't even slip into them anymore.
    Last edited by Nonstopdrivel; 21-Jul-2011 at 06:53 PM.

  4. #1494
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Nonstopdrivel View Post
    It is obvious from your post that you have not written a single word Madcow wrote. At a minimum, read every word on his site -- preferably two or three times -- then go through and read this entire thread. Every single one of your questions has been answered repeatedly already. This board won't let me post a link to his website, so just do a Google search for "Madcow Training Information Site" with the quotation marks and it will be the first link to pop up. As Madcow himself wrote:

    After I asked the question i Did RE-read everything again. I i may have not caught everything in the first read, but i got more the Second. thanks though


    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Stop what you are doing, go to the gym, and dedicate two workouts to determining your true, current 5RM for all the basic lifts. Not your estimated 5RM, not your 1RM, not what you hope it will be in a year, your true 5RM. Then enter that value in the spreadsheet. In fact, just to be safe, enter a value between 90% and 95% of your 5RM. I can tell you from hard experience that if you try entering higher values -- say, your 1RM -- the program will be entirely too aggressive and you will fail. As Madcow says over and over, check your ego at the door and be conservative. You are far more likely to have success with this program by entering lower weights. Starting out too heavy is a guaranteed recipe for failure.

    Good info here, but I asked a while ago got no answer, and now have my 5 rep maxes. And i'm not rookie enough to put in what i hope it would be in a year.. WTF?


    Of course it is. You are not supposed to hit your current maxes until Week 4 at least. There should not be the slightest doubt that you will make all your reps -- and easily -- within this period. If you are failing on any exercise at any time during this period, you started out too heavy and need to start over. Period. Plenty of people, including myself, have had success adding two extra loading weeks onto the program and not hitting their maxes until Week 6. In fact, if this is your first time on the program, I strongly suggest you do just that. The loading period gives you a chance to recover, accustom yourself to the volume, and gain momentum for the PR period, which gets mind-numbingly difficult after a few weeks. (Hardly anyone makes it past Week 9 without stalling on at least one lift.) Again, this has been explained ad nauseam in the past.

    Havent failed on an exersize yet. And it still seems pretty easy. just trucking along now.

    Why are you trying to change the program before you have even given it a chance? Just do the program as written, and if after doing your compound lifts in Week 9 you have the energy to do anything but drag yourself home to bed, then you can think about adding extra volume. Of course the program seems easy at first -- if it weren't, you wouldn't make any progress on it. Trust me, it gets crushingly difficult fast. Stick to the plan. It is time tested and it works.

    not trying to change it. Just adding to it. Not doing rotator cuff/delt/shrugs exersizes cause my shoulders start to separate(again) during bench days.... hence its needed, and affects my effectiveness.
    and I have noticed that the low level of Bicep work, now they are really sufering in size and strength.



    Why are you using the Smith machine? This is a free-weight barbell program. With the Smith machine you are just asking for severe back problems, and probably knee injuries into the bargain, because it forces your body into an unnatural path of movement. Even if you are lucky enough not to injure yourself using that abomination of a device, you will not achieve remotely the same kind of gains you would get from barbell squatting. If your gym does not have a power rack, or at least a squat stand, cancel your membership and go elsewhere.

    Already have back problems, and knee problems from my younger years. I was using it for dead-lifts. and deadlifts only.

    Follow the program. It has worked for over 40 years for thousands of others. It will work for you.
    .
    I appreciate all the time you took out to answer my question. But It's absorbed better when the 1st line isnt an assumption of what i didnt do.
    Seriously.. i do appreciate the answer though.

  5. #1495
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  6. #1496

    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    I appreciate all the time you took out to answer my question. But It's absorbed better when the 1st line isnt an assumption of what i didnt do.
    I won't apologize for coming off as abrasive, because when it comes to this topic, it often seems to be necessary. People in the weightlifting arena seem to have incredibly thick skulls. Like other posters (on this site and many others), I have had to spend so many hours over the years explaining and defending basic principles that shouldn't be hard to understand.

    I will say, however, that you took my words too literally. I was meaning it in the sense of "You heard, but you didn't listen." It was obvious from what you said that you didn't truly understand and absorb the principles he was promulgating -- as you yourself admitted.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    After I asked the question i Did RE-read everything again. I i may have not caught everything in the first read, but i got more the Second. thanks though
    I am pleased you went back through and re-read his material. Now that you have read it a second time, read it a third time. And a fourth. Read it again every time you are getting ready to start a new training cycle. Make sure you are reading it with an open mind and not through the filter of any preconceived bodybuilding notions you might have. I have been using 5 x 5 programs for several years, and I still find myself going back to Madcow's site, threads like this, and related resources. I learn a little something new every time.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    Good info here, but I asked a while ago got no answer, and now have my 5 rep maxes. And i'm not rookie enough to put in what i hope it would be in a year.. WTF?
    Again, you are taking my words too literally. Putting those different possibilities in there is a rhetorical device. You would not believe some of the crazy things people do when setting up this program. Just read this thread for examples. Most people who think they aren't novices in fact are, just because this program is so different from what they are used to. I have been lifting since 2004 and still went back to Stronglifts 5 x 5 Beginner before embarking on Madcow. You can never work on the fundamentals enough.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    Havent failed on an exersize yet. And it still seems pretty easy. just trucking along now.
    I was referring to your original post in which you said you were failing on rows. Remember that failure is the inability to complete every rep with good form. If you have to cheat at any point in the set (for example, doing a push press on military press), you have failed.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    not trying to change it. Just adding to it. Not doing rotator cuff/delt/shrugs exersizes cause my shoulders start to separate(again) during bench days.... hence its needed, and affects my effectiveness.
    and I have noticed that the low level of Bicep work, now they are really sufering in size and strength.
    Adding to it is changing it. Are you referring to rehab exercises prescribed by a physical therapist? If so, of course you can do those, because they will be very low weight and will not affect your recovery. If you are just adding these exercises of your own accord, I would be extremely wary. If your shoulders really are separating on bench days, I strongly suspect you have a serious form issue. Most people seem to take bench press for granted because it looks so straightforward, when in fact it is just as technical a lift as the squat. Everyone I have ever worked with has had form issues -- some subtle, some major -- that they could improve. Check out some of Andy Bolton's articles for detailed explanations on how to bench press in such a way that spares your shoulders. His work was helpful for me in overcoming my shoulder joint impingements.

    It's also quite possible that your reliance on delt exercises is in fact exacerbating your problem. Very few people do delt exercises correctly. If you have shoulder problems, the only delt exercises you should be doing are arm raises at a 45° angle. Lateral or anterior (90°) raises with weight are a definite no-no.

    Can you deadlift 400 lbs with perfect form? If you can't, you don't need to be incorporating shrugs into your routine right now. Deadlifts work your traps. Focus on improving your deadlift.

    If your shoulders are in as bad of shape as you are indicating, get yourself evaluated by a physical therapist as soon as possible. It may be that you need to drop pressing exercises completely until your shoulder heals. Last year, I did a cycle of Madcow without any pressing exercises at all, and I still made great gains.

    Stop worrying about your precious biceps. They were probably disproportionately large anyway. The point of this program is that it builds your entire body simultaneously and proportionately. What is probably happening is that as you have reduced the number of reps you put them through, they are being puffed with less fluid. If you want to increase the size of your biceps, get bigger and stronger. Get back to me on your biceps after you can Pendlay row at least your body weight with strict form and you can do 5 sets of 5 chinups all the way to your chest with at least 25 lbs strapped to your waist. Throw in 3 sets of 8 weighted dips on Monday; growing your triceps will make your arms look much larger and more powerful than working your biceps will.

    Again, stop evaluating this information through a bodybuilding filter. My partner and I don't have the biggest biceps in the gym, but we are without question the strongest two men our gym has ever seen. No one else comes remotely close to squatting, deadlifting, benching, pressing or rowing as much as we do. And we barbell curl more than almost anyone in the gym too.

    As Madcow might say, would you seriously trade 20 lbs of extra muscle for slightly bigger biceps? I know I wouldn't. Women have told me I have the body of a Greek god. White women openly stare at my legs when I walk past. I've had black women grabbing my ass and squealing with delight -- and I'm white. Straight guys have told me they can't get my ass out of their head (most of them are now on Stronglifts or Madcow). Some men think that curls get the girls. That may or may not be the case, but I can assure you that legs get you laid.

    Quote Quote posted by brownbrown View Post
    Already have back problems, and knee problems from my younger years. I was using it for dead-lifts. and deadlifts only.
    If you have back problems, you absolutely should not be using the Smith machine -- and definitely not for a back-intensive exercise like deadlifts. Every human body is built differently, which means that no two people will make exactly the same motion on deadlifts. The Smith machine forces you into a vertical path that is not ideal for your individual body, and if you deviate even slightly from that path, you can injure yourself severely. Besides, the whole point of a deadlift is you have to stabilize the weight yourself, whereas the Smith machine stabilizes it for you.

    Ditch your ego and start over on this exercise. If pulling from the floor hurts your back, rest the weight on stacks of two or three 45-lb plates. The bar should start midway up your shin. Feel free to start the bar even higher if you need to; it will spare your back. If you have to go back down to 135 lbs on this exercise to train your body to perform it with perfect form, so be it. You will improve a thousand times faster doing low weights with perfect form than doing higher weights on a Smith machine, and the risk of injury will be far lower.

    This program is powerful. Using this program, I am training a man who couldn't squat the bare bar to parallel four months ago. Now he can squat 200 kg (440 lbs) x 5 ass to grass, and he is still improving. Precisely because it is so powerful, however, it can also crush you if there are any underlying weaknesses in your chain. If you really are in such delicate physical shape, I would suggest pulling back from this intermediate program and trying a beginner program like Stronglifts 5 x 5 or Starting Strength. Get your body healed and accustomed to performing compound lifts before embarking on a challenge like this.

    Good luck with this program. I am a huge believer in it because it is simple to understand, easy to follow, yet works amazingly well. It's too bad most people overcomplicate that which should be so straightfoward.
    Last edited by Nonstopdrivel; 22-Jul-2011 at 03:02 AM.

  7. #1497
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    I agree with most of what NSD said above, just wanted to focus on a few points.

    I'm assuming from your description in your first part, you're talking about the madcow advanced routine. Generally, I'd recommend doing the intermediate (or something similar) before you do the advanced. Since you're already in the midst of the advanced routine though, I want to stress that weeks 1 and 2 should be very easy because it should be only 80% and 90% respectively of your 5x5 rep max.

    Also keep in mind that your 5x5 rep max is not the same thing as your 5 rep max. Generally, people can do anywhere from 85-95% of their 5 rep max for a 5x5 rep max. Without doing the program before or specifically testing this, its really quite hard to know. 90% of 5 rep max would be a good place to start to calculate a 5x5 rep max. I see that the spreadsheet has you starting with 92.5% of your 5 rep max, but that is quite aggressive for an advanced level lifter in my opinion. It's ALWAYS better to start off too light on these types of programs and then load for additional weeks to compensate, than it is to start off too heavy and stall out on week 2 or 3.

    I definitely agree about taking the deadlifts off the smith machine. If ever there was anything I'd advise people NOT to do on a smith machine, it would have to be deadlifts and squats.

    The one place I disagree on is your questions on assistance work. Although it's generally not advised to play around with assistance exercise choice, this is a program written for the masses, so the stuff listed is just one particular way you can go with it. Keep it mind the program is written with a focus on increasing your strength on the big compound lifts.

    The assistance lifts listed on the spreadsheet basically amount to 20-30 reps on two exercises for each of the three days, ie 40-60 reps total. A lot of core work is in there because many people are weak in that area. If you wanted to change some of this out, particularly for the purpose of rehab/prehab, but keep the total assistance volume roughly the same, that's fine.

    Something along the following lines would be fine, but remember this is ASSISTANCE work, not main lifts, so don't throw something like incline bench in there:
    M-3x10 rear delt raise, 3x10 abs (or 2x10 rear delt, 2x10 abs, some x some rotator)
    W-3x10 shrug, 5x5 weighted pullups
    F-3x10 dips, 3x10 barbell curls

    As you become more experienced with this type of training you'll have a better idea of what sorts of modifications you can and should be making.

  8. #1498
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Advice taken from both posts and will change accordingly.

    Good deal.. I'll omit the Smith machine today.
    i screwed up started with the Intermediate program, but just starting the advanced now.

  9. #1499
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Nonstopdrivel View Post
    I won't apologize for coming off as abrasive, because when it comes to this topic, it often seems to be necessary. People in the weightlifting arena seem to have incredibly thick skulls. Like other posters (on this site and many others), I have had to spend so many hours over the years explaining and defending basic principles that shouldn't be hard to understand.
    I didnt ask nor want an Apology. So dont assume i care. Yes your coming off much more abrasive than helpful.
    I will say, however, that you took my words too literally. I was meaning it in the sense of "You heard, but you didn't listen." It was obvious from what you said that you didn't truly understand and absorb the principles he was promulgating -- as you yourself admitted.

    So, you know more about "this routine" then I, Good for you.

    I am pleased you went back through and re-read his material. Now that you have read it a second time, read it a third time. And a fourth. Read it again every time you are getting ready to start a new training cycle. Make sure you are reading it with an open mind and not through the filter of any preconceived bodybuilding notions you might have. I have been using 5 x 5 programs for several years, and I still find myself going back to Madcow's site, threads like this, and related resources. I learn a little something new every time.



    Again, you are taking my words too literally. Putting those different possibilities in there is a rhetorical device. You would not believe some of the crazy things people do when setting up this program. Just read this thread for examples. Most people who think they aren't novices in fact are, just because this program is so different from what they are used to. I have been lifting since 2004 and still went back to Stronglifts 5 x 5 Beginner before embarking on Madcow. You can never work on the fundamentals enough.



    I was referring to your original post in which you said you were failing on rows. Remember that failure is the inability to complete every rep with good form. If you have to cheat at any point in the set (for example, doing a push press on military press), you have failed.

    Failed @ Rows before i had my 5 rep max, before i re-read the program, So sure....



    Adding to it is changing it. Are you referring to rehab exercises prescribed by a physical therapist? If so, of course you can do those, because they will be very low weight and will not affect your recovery. If you are just adding these exercises of your own accord, I would be extremely wary. If your shoulders really are separating on bench days, I strongly suspect you have a serious form issue. Most people seem to take bench press for granted because it looks so straightforward, when in fact it is just as technical a lift as the squat. Everyone I have ever worked with has had form issues -- some subtle, some major -- that they could improve. Check out some of Andy Bolton's articles for detailed explanations on how to bench press in such a way that spares your shoulders. His work was helpful for me in overcoming my shoulder joint impingements.

    So adding to it is changing it, but you say go ahead and change it after saying don't? My bench form is fine. It wasnt in the past, hence the bad shoulders...

    It's also quite possible that your reliance on delt exercises is in fact exacerbating your problem. Very few people do delt exercises correctly. If you have shoulder problems, the only delt exercises you should be doing are arm raises at a 45° angle. Lateral or anterior (90°) raises with weight are a definite no-no.

    Thanks...... But i have it handled, good advice, but you do not qualify as my physical therapist, and he said other wise.

    Can you deadlift 400 lbs with perfect form? If you can't, you don't need to be incorporating shrugs into your routine right now. Deadlifts work your traps. Focus on improving your deadlift.



    If your shoulders are in as bad of shape as you are indicating, get yourself evaluated by a physical therapist as soon as possible. It may be that you need to drop pressing exercises completely until your shoulder heals. Last year, I did a cycle of Madcow without any pressing exercises at all, and I still made great gains.

    So you changed it? sounds like my idea that you said Stop Stop Stop too.

    Stop worrying about your precious biceps. They were probably disproportionately large anyway. The point of this program is that it builds your entire body simultaneously and proportionately. What is probably happening is that as you have reduced the number of reps you put them through, they are being puffed with less fluid. If you want to increase the size of your biceps, get bigger and stronger. Get back to me on your biceps after you can Pendlay row at least your body weight with strict form and you can do 5 sets of 5 chinups all the way to your chest with at least 25 lbs strapped to your waist. Throw in 3 sets of 8 weighted dips on Monday; growing your triceps will make your arms look much larger and more powerful than working your biceps will.

    Precious Biceps?, Come on now man. Because I want to ensure most muscle groups get worked out enough,? And your Assuming that im disproportionate from the internet? The point of the program is to gain Strength Quickly, Please point me to the area where he says "its to build proportionately". I can Pen-row my weight easily ao you know. And Chin ups are my bread and butter. So 25lb X 5 is chin up change IMO.
    I know that tri's make arms look bigger. Im not worried about "looking good". Stregnth is paramount. thanks though


    Again, stop evaluating this information through a bodybuilding filter. My partner and I don't have the biggest biceps in the gym, but we are without question the strongest two men our gym has ever seen. No one else comes remotely close to squatting, deadlifting, benching, pressing or rowing as much as we do. And we barbell curl more than almost anyone in the gym too.

    As Madcow might say, would you seriously trade 20 lbs of extra muscle for slightly bigger biceps? I know I wouldn't. Women have told me I have the body of a Greek god. White women openly stare at my legs when I walk past. I've had black women grabbing my ass and squealing with delight -- and I'm white. Straight guys have told me they can't get my ass out of their head (most of them are now on Stronglifts or Madcow). Some men think that curls get the girls. That may or may not be the case, but I can assure you that legs get you laid.

    There's no trade off, if i know my limits , and know if im impairing my compound lifts.
    3 sets of Biceps a week would not work for my body. Yes rows work bi's before you even mention it.
    I choose to ignore your horn tooting.


    If you have back problems, you absolutely should not be using the Smith machine -- and definitely not for a back-intensive exercise like deadlifts. Every human body is built differently, which means that no two people will make exactly the same motion on deadlifts. The Smith machine forces you into a vertical path that is not ideal for your individual body, and if you deviate even slightly from that path, you can injure yourself severely. Besides, the whole point of a deadlift is you have to stabilize the weight yourself, whereas the Smith machine stabilizes it for you.

    Got it. thanks

    Ditch your ego and start over on this exercise. If pulling from the floor hurts your back, rest the weight on stacks of two or three 45-lb plates. The bar should start midway up your shin. Feel free to start the bar even higher if you need to; it will spare your back. If you have to go back down to 135 lbs on this exercise to train your body to perform it with perfect form, so be it. You will improve a thousand times faster doing low weights with perfect form than doing higher weights on a Smith machine, and the risk of injury will be far lower.



    This program is powerful. Using this program, I am training a man who couldn't squat the bare bar to parallel four months ago. Now he can squat 200 kg (440 lbs) x 5 ass to grass, and he is still improving. Precisely because it is so powerful, however, it can also crush you if there are any underlying weaknesses in your chain. If you really are in such delicate physical shape, I would suggest pulling back from this intermediate program and trying a beginner program like Stronglifts 5 x 5 or Starting Strength. Get your body healed and accustomed to performing compound lifts before embarking on a challenge like this.

    Its a good program so far. But you speak of it as its perfect, and there is no Perfect program. Yes MADCOW said follow his words to a T. Look around the forum... Hundreds use many variations of this workout, and have gained wonderfully. So its NOT Gospel. As a matter of fact, you also did a Variation of this same program that he said not to do.

    Good luck with this program. I am a huge believer in it because it is simple to understand, easy to follow, yet works amazingly well. It's too bad most people overcomplicate that which should be so straightfoward.

    Thanks i'll try to K.I.S.S

    .
    ..............

  10. #1500

    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Great deal of info in this thread, I appreciate it alot. I started training again about 2 months ago, after a 2 year lay off due to illness. I haven't seen any info regarding Bill Starr's Beginner routine, and I'm abit confused how it works compared to the intermediate routines.

    Monday (Heavy Day – 85%)
    Back Squats: 5 x 5 Ramping weight to top set of 5 reps across 5 sets
    Bench Press: 5 x 5 Ramping weight to top set of 5 reps across 5 sets
    Deadlifts: 5 x 5 Ramping weight to top set of 5 reps across 5 sets

    Wednesday (Light Day – 65-70%)
    Back Squats: 5 x 5 using 60% of Monday’s weight
    Bench Press: 5 x 5 using 60% of Monday’s weight
    Pullups: 5 x 5 Ramping weight to top set of 5 reps across 5 sets

    Friday (Medium Day – 70-85%)
    Back Squats: 5 x 5 using 80% of Monday’s weight
    Bench Press: 5 x 5 using 80% of Monday’s weight
    Rows: 5 x 5 Ramping weight to top set of 5 reps across 5 sets

    How does the increase in weight work with this routine? Do you increase your weight on the heavy day, medium day?

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