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Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now!


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up now! within the Weight Training & Weight Lifting category.

Excerpt: Content by Madcow2 Last Revised 1/11/2006 UPDATE - I have updated program descriptions, template downloads, and an updated Table of Contents on my Geocities site (i.e. lots more topics and better organization). This will be the final update of this TOC in the thread (and it's an incomplete one because there's just too much) but the one on that site essentially links all the topics below and more, many of which come to this very thread. This is easier on me and the better descriptions with

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  1. #1451

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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by Chezzardnorr View Post
    Hi!

    @ moster:

    I think, if you need 90-120 minutes to complete your sessions, than take that time!

    On the other hand if you don't want to train that long, you've got to shorten your rests between the sets.
    For example:
    On 5-max-Days rest 1-1 1/2 Minute between the first 3 sets. After the third pause 2 Minutes, after the fourth set 3-4 Minutes, than get your 5-max-set.
    On volumen days, I won't rest longer than 2 Minutes between the working sets. Also here I would try to keep the rest-time about a minute. If fatigue raises, rest a littel bit longer.

    When benches, dips and extensions are way to much exercises (as you mentioned) rotate dips and extensions weekly.
    They should be perfomred on Fridays so that you got enough time for recovery. If you feel that you can't catch that volume, decrease it!

    Greetz,
    C.
    Thank you very much. That clears just about everything.

    I was worried about that longer training sessions because I was reading before some stuff that so long sessions are counter productive. I am gaining strength, but I just wanted that somebody with more experience actually confirm that 1,5 hour session is OK

    After this workouts I feel tired but strong, before I was completely exhausted. Ok, thanks again

  2. #1452
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Hey guys,

    Long time no see. The last time I replied was probably 10/9 weeks ago when I decided to restart the program because I thought I was overtraining. It turns out that I had caught a really nasty cold instead (apparently swine flu was floating around uni during that time).

    Anyhow, I've restarted the program and am currently in week 9 and have FINALLY got a long awaited squat PR. Actually I've had 3, I just didn't want to post after the first one because I thought that may have been a fluke! So far the squat is up by 6kg (110->116), the power clean is @ 80kg x5 (I used to only be able to full clean this weight and only for 2/3 reps) and the high pulls as well. Unfortunately, the bench stalled today @ 90.5kg (only got 4 reps) and the press has already stalled twice (although it's currently sitting at a healthy 64kgx5).
    The weight gain hasn't been that great but that's because I've intentionally tried to keep my weight around 94-95 kg. I want to see if I can burn some fat off and put some muscle on. I know this will prematurely end the gains if I approach it like this but I'm willing to jack up the calories as soon as I start noticing some bad misses.
    I've still got a few questions that I'd like to get answered:
    1. What is the point in changing the rep/set structure of the program? I'm assuming the aim is to vary the stimulus being applied to the muscle but does this really have that much of an affect?
    2. If one would like to use this program whilst cutting, how would they go about it? I'm thinking of using 8RMs instead of 5RMs and placing at week 5 instead of week 4. I'll throw in some HIIT in between HEAVY-LIGHT days and then build up to another HIIT day between LIGHT-MEDIUM days as I progress. Another thing I thought of was to just slowly add some slow jogging as I get through this current program, but I'm not sure how much of an affect that would have.

    Many thanks go to djeclipse for helping me out.

    I've attached a chart showing my change in bodyweight as I went through the program. The green dot was when I first started in March, where I continued to progress even though I missed the lifts on the HEAVY day (really stupid). The orange dot was when I tried to run the program with some HIIT added in but the squat remained at 110kg and only the presses (and my waist) were increasing. The red dot is where I'm at right now. I try to eat 6 meals a day and only when I'm hungry (see above for reason). I've got no idea why I've had the massive weight fluctuations in the past 3 weeks though...


  3. #1453
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    I was wondering if incline dumbell press would be a fine substitue for dips on fridays. Or are dips way better for overall strength?

  4. #1454
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by NBAfan#21 View Post
    I was wondering if incline dumbell press would be a fine substitue for dips on fridays. Or are dips way better for overall strength?

    That would be ok, but once you get good at dips they are fun. I can put 145lbs strapped to me and do about 10. once you can do 20-25 bodyweight dips start putting weight on.

  5. #1455
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by NBAfan#21 View Post
    I was wondering if incline dumbell press would be a fine substitue for dips on fridays. Or are dips way better for overall strength?

    I wouldn't add another heavy bench press movement on friday, you are already doing flat bench and the goal is to progress on that.

    Dips are not a mandatory, they are thrown in there as extra, they are optional.

    Dips are not important on friday, moving the weight on Bench, Squats, Rows is.

  6. #1456
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by lolwut View Post
    Hey guys,

    Long time no see. The last time I replied was probably 10/9 weeks ago when I decided to restart the program because I thought I was overtraining. It turns out that I had caught a really nasty cold instead (apparently swine flu was floating around uni during that time).

    Anyhow, I've restarted the program and am currently in week 9 and have FINALLY got a long awaited squat PR. Actually I've had 3, I just didn't want to post after the first one because I thought that may have been a fluke! So far the squat is up by 6kg (110->116), the power clean is @ 80kg x5 (I used to only be able to full clean this weight and only for 2/3 reps) and the high pulls as well. Unfortunately, the bench stalled today @ 90.5kg (only got 4 reps) and the press has already stalled twice (although it's currently sitting at a healthy 64kgx5).
    The weight gain hasn't been that great but that's because I've intentionally tried to keep my weight around 94-95 kg. I want to see if I can burn some fat off and put some muscle on. I know this will prematurely end the gains if I approach it like this but I'm willing to jack up the calories as soon as I start noticing some bad misses.
    I've still got a few questions that I'd like to get answered:
    1. What is the point in changing the rep/set structure of the program? I'm assuming the aim is to vary the stimulus being applied to the muscle but does this really have that much of an affect?
    2. If one would like to use this program whilst cutting, how would they go about it? I'm thinking of using 8RMs instead of 5RMs and placing at week 5 instead of week 4. I'll throw in some HIIT in between HEAVY-LIGHT days and then build up to another HIIT day between LIGHT-MEDIUM days as I progress. Another thing I thought of was to just slowly add some slow jogging as I get through this current program, but I'm not sure how much of an affect that would have.

    Many thanks go to djeclipse for helping me out.

    I've attached a chart showing my change in bodyweight as I went through the program. The green dot was when I first started in March, where I continued to progress even though I missed the lifts on the HEAVY day (really stupid). The orange dot was when I tried to run the program with some HIIT added in but the squat remained at 110kg and only the presses (and my waist) were increasing. The red dot is where I'm at right now. I try to eat 6 meals a day and only when I'm hungry (see above for reason). I've got no idea why I've had the massive weight fluctuations in the past 3 weeks though...

    Typically the pressing movements are the movements where people stall first, usually the bench. Usually because everyone wants a big bench so they are never as conservative as they should be when starting the program. Also, Squat, Deadlift etc. are trus full body movements, bench is more chest and shoulders, as well as press (shoulders). To keep those moving it is best to back off the increases when you find they start to get hard to complete all 5 reps. Going up in 1Lb increases/ week may be what you need to keep the weight moving.

    What is the point in changing the rep/set structure of the program?
    I am not sure what you mean? If you're talking about the set of 3 on Friday, 5 on monday etc, you should know that by now if you have read Mancows site. The 3 gets you ready for 5 on monday and the 8 back off set is to get some work in the higher rep range for size.

    As for cutting, you certainly can run the program as it is while cutting, some people have even continued to make gains while loosing 15-20lbs. Keep in mind though, if you have lost 5lbs and maintain the same strength that is a gain.

    If you wanted to switch to 8's I would suggest 3 sets of 8, raping weights the same way you would on the 5 x 5. Adding in other crap as you found out deters form making gains on this program. If you must do cardio do it on the off days and make sure your body still has enough rest.

  7. #1457
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by moster View Post
    It was hard to believe that guy named MadCow KNOWS a secret of weightlifting without gear. Ok, he not invent it, but he really nice spell it all out for us. I blow years of my life with nonsense programs and I actually manage to lose my strength. After so many years, progress AT LAST. Thanks to Madcow and his excel file that keep me from going insane with too much volume and intensity. Big THANKS for that.

    Now, little question for all you more experienced. I am currently in intermmediate madcow program. My friday workout is over 1 hour long even if I superset assistance exercises. I am little worried about it, because as I get stronger and stronger it will go to 1,5 hours and that seems too long from what I read before. Specially if I go to advanced program and when I look wensday and it look to me that is 2 hour workout it it is definitely too long. If I stick to madcow recomended 2-4 min pause between series.

    Another thing I would like you guys to comment. It seems silly, please do not laugh. On intermediate program, on friday there is bench, dips and triceps extension. It just seems too much volume on triceps and I feel that I cannot go really heavy on it. What do you say about it? I can go on, but I will have to use lower weight on triceps extension and/or dips.
    As for time, Madcow does not say you must have 2-4min rest between stes. He says take as much time as you need to make sure you get all your reps in. For the warm up stes, that may be as long as it takes to load the bar, in the later sets, that may be one minute, 2minutes or longer, just keep it under 5min.

    Remember. The goal is to make sure you get all the reps in, the time in between the sets should be enough to make that happen. Moving the weight, getting all your reps in is the important thing, the rest time between sets is not important, it is part of that 5% everyone seemsto focus on that Madcow talks about.

    On monday and wed you should be able to get everything in around 45min, as the weight's go up and you need more rest for the final set that time may increase to 1hr. Friday it depends on how much accessory stuff you want to do.

    Which leads me to friday. Remember, the main goal is to increase the core lifts, Bench, Squats, Deads, Rows & Over head press. EVERYTHING else is secondary and optional. If an accessory exercise is getting in the way of increasing your core lifts dorp it.

    Madcow only threw in the 2-3 sets of bies and tries so the one body part/ week people would still be happy that they got to do their precious isolation exercises.

    he clearly states that if the Isolation exercises (bies, tries) or the dips on firday are getting in the way of the main lifts, drp them, they are not important.

    Curls and tri isolation will NOT add size your arms. If you want to add 1" to your arms, gain 10Lbs, simple as that. If you eat a bunch of crap and don;t train that 1" will be fat, if you have good training and eat proper that 1" will be muscle. Arm size is relative to body weight.

    When was the last time you saw a 400lb person with 14" arms? Never, they all have 16-18"+ arms. It is all fat but the arm size increased as the body weight went up.

    Keep training, eat proper and as your weight goes up so will your arm sizs, regardless if you do curls and tri isolation or not.

  8. #1458
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by djeclipse View Post
    I wouldn't add another heavy bench press movement on friday, you are already doing flat bench and the goal is to progress on that.

    Dips are not a mandatory, they are thrown in there as extra, they are optional.

    Dips are not important on friday, moving the weight on Bench, Squats, Rows is.
    Well i wasn't planning on going too heavy. More around the 8-10 rep range. He recommends a 5-8 rep range for dips on friday and that works my chest more than triceps. So i just wondred if i could do another chest exercice that i prefer and that still could give me some strength gains

  9. #1459
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by djeclipse View Post
    As for time, Madcow does not say you must have 2-4min rest between stes. He says take as much time as you need to make sure you get all your reps in. For the warm up stes, that may be as long as it takes to load the bar, in the later sets, that may be one minute, 2minutes or longer, just keep it under 5min.

    Remember. The goal is to make sure you get all the reps in, the time in between the sets should be enough to make that happen. Moving the weight, getting all your reps in is the important thing, the rest time between sets is not important, it is part of that 5% everyone seemsto focus on that Madcow talks about.

    On monday and wed you should be able to get everything in around 45min, as the weight's go up and you need more rest for the final set that time may increase to 1hr. Friday it depends on how much accessory stuff you want to do.

    Which leads me to friday. Remember, the main goal is to increase the core lifts, Bench, Squats, Deads, Rows & Over head press. EVERYTHING else is secondary and optional. If an accessory exercise is getting in the way of increasing your core lifts dorp it.

    Madcow only threw in the 2-3 sets of bies and tries so the one body part/ week people would still be happy that they got to do their precious isolation exercises.

    he clearly states that if the Isolation exercises (bies, tries) or the dips on firday are getting in the way of the main lifts, drp them, they are not important.

    Curls and tri isolation will NOT add size your arms. If you want to add 1" to your arms, gain 10Lbs, simple as that. If you eat a bunch of crap and don;t train that 1" will be fat, if you have good training and eat proper that 1" will be muscle. Arm size is relative to body weight.

    When was the last time you saw a 400lb person with 14" arms? Never, they all have 16-18"+ arms. It is all fat but the arm size increased as the body weight went up.

    Keep training, eat proper and as your weight goes up so will your arm sizs, regardless if you do curls and tri isolation or not.

    Hey i work out with someone that has 20inch arms and weighs 180 lol. He has the bench record for california though, hes a freak. he never trained lower body so he could stay in a low weight class. WHy does he have the ability to get super huge arms and stay light and small?

  10. #1460
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    Re: Bill Starr's 5 x 5 program... Variation per Madcow2 (thanx) So here it is! K up n

    Quote Quote posted by the.gladiator1987 View Post
    Hey i work out with someone that has 20inch arms and weighs 180 lol. He has the bench record for california though, hes a freak. he never trained lower body so he could stay in a low weight class. WHy does he have the ability to get super huge arms and stay light and small?

    Good for you, everyone on the internet "knows someone"...

    Is he natural? Either way there will always be an exception to any rule.

    And I can only imagine what this guy looks like with "20 arms" and no wheels in a 180lb frame.

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