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5x5 question for MADCOW
- Thread starter c gheller
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Most people have the majority of their gains show up towards the middle of the deloading period as the body is able to recover from the recovery deficit accrued in the volume phase. It depends on a lot of factors and generally people new to this program blow it to some degree in some way because they don't set the weight right - or my posts aren't clear enough and they do the wrong stuff (hopefully I'll throw it on GeoCities or something sooner). Even if you screw some stuff up you'll still get good gains. The second time one does it, I feel is the most productive. On your second go around you know your previous relevant maxes, you've ironed out all the kinks, and you have an idea about your bodies tolerances and how to load it properly. I will say that I don't know of any program that is better than this one at adding muscle although you can equal it - this is one of the program's biggest problems in certain sports. I wish I could give you a number but this stuff just doesn't work like that. Eat, sleep, and train - you'd be a major anomally to not have this program work. I've never heard of a single case where it's happened.
LeanforLife
New member
Madcow2 said:
Thanks a lot bro
Yeah funny you should say that. Im in on wednesday of the delaoding weekand today i feel very full. I hopped on the scales and im 5lbs up. I know its mostly water but why today. Nothing has changed except for the fact that i am deloading. Also bro, when ive finished this training cylcle do you recommend to go straight into the next or take a break?
In dual factor theory the stimulus being applied is a series of workouts over a period of time that cause recovery deficit. This is different from the single factor supercompensation workout where you apply a single workout stimulus, recover from it and are stronger/bigger from a single workout. Single factor works for beginners and that's about it experienced lifters have really hard times getting consistent gains. So anyway, the stimulus is applied - the body realizes that there is a consistent scaling need over a period and that it need to adapt to survive. At this point deloading occurs and the body is able to catch up on the recovery which is why you see the majority of the gains in this phase.
Now the big question is why someone would think that the body once reasonably accustomed to training would put on calorically expensive muscle (read: risk of death in famine much higher - note: human body's purpose is survival and procreation first) simply based on a single training session and believe they could string together a series of them catching each one at the point of recovery where they are improved and continually gain like this. Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? The body is very reluctant to adapt with muscle unless if feels a sustained and preferably scaling need over a period to which it cannot catch up, if the diet is adequate and the body doesn't fear for survival from food shortage, it will adapt when it can catch back up (i.e. deloading).
This program and dual factor theory are very simple logical stuff - no rocket science. What makes it hard for people to accept is that they are used to BBer mentality workouts and BBers are nearly alone in the world in single factor camp - dual factor is beyond dominant, it is accepted by just about every researcher and strength coach on the planet and has been used for a hell of a long time now. This is basically the way it's done all over the world including the US - Div1, Pro, and Olympic athletes are all trained like this with very very few exceptions - and those exceptions tend to be unremarkable like PSU's strength coach using HIT (he's not to blame for the performance but he certainly isn't helping).
Anyway the nature of that loading in the volume program basically can't be tolerated by the body for long. This is why it's a great stimulus. Meaning that if you kept at this pace you'd be burried and seriously overtrained - and I'm talking about no concentration, falling asleep standing up, and requiring a huge amount of rest to recuperate (think weeks). I did it for an experiment once and really elongated the volume cycle making smaller incremental jumps and avoiding the records. My training partner and I crashed at exactly the same time - it was around week 8 I think we just died. I'm not talking "oh, I think I'm overtrained" - I'm talking about serious debilitation and just complete burn out of the CNS and recuperative capabilities. It took 2 full weeks off before we were decently recovered and probably longer before we were ready to seriously train hard again. And no, we were not rewarded with extra gains. It completely pushed the body beyond its limits and crashed it. It was probably 4 weeks before we began another training cycle. A hell of a good illustration into overtraining and one's limitations - probably valuable to do once but it really screws up your training and general life, very difficult to function and use your brain at normal levels.
Anyway, the 3x3 period with its much lower volume serves the purpose of deloading. You'll be able to go right back into the 5x5 and it will generally be a lot smoother. You'll know your previous maxes precisely, all the kinks will be worked out, you'll have a better idea of your tolerances and the appropriate weekly ramp up weights. I wouldn't make much in the way of changes (subbing incline for military, highpulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, db curls for bb curls - that stuff is fine). Run it 2-3 times through. After that you'll know your body and this methodology really well and you will be able to adapt the framework to accomodate more specialized work.
Interestingly when everyone begins they want to change it all around, towards the end of the volume phase they realize how well it works and how much stonger and more solid they feel, they see the bulk of the gains in the intensity phase and start praising the hell out of it - by the time they run it 2-3 times they tend not to want to change much and anything they do is fairly minor in an effort to keep intact the structure they so badly wanted to break in the beginning.
Now the big question is why someone would think that the body once reasonably accustomed to training would put on calorically expensive muscle (read: risk of death in famine much higher - note: human body's purpose is survival and procreation first) simply based on a single training session and believe they could string together a series of them catching each one at the point of recovery where they are improved and continually gain like this. Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? The body is very reluctant to adapt with muscle unless if feels a sustained and preferably scaling need over a period to which it cannot catch up, if the diet is adequate and the body doesn't fear for survival from food shortage, it will adapt when it can catch back up (i.e. deloading).
This program and dual factor theory are very simple logical stuff - no rocket science. What makes it hard for people to accept is that they are used to BBer mentality workouts and BBers are nearly alone in the world in single factor camp - dual factor is beyond dominant, it is accepted by just about every researcher and strength coach on the planet and has been used for a hell of a long time now. This is basically the way it's done all over the world including the US - Div1, Pro, and Olympic athletes are all trained like this with very very few exceptions - and those exceptions tend to be unremarkable like PSU's strength coach using HIT (he's not to blame for the performance but he certainly isn't helping).
Anyway the nature of that loading in the volume program basically can't be tolerated by the body for long. This is why it's a great stimulus. Meaning that if you kept at this pace you'd be burried and seriously overtrained - and I'm talking about no concentration, falling asleep standing up, and requiring a huge amount of rest to recuperate (think weeks). I did it for an experiment once and really elongated the volume cycle making smaller incremental jumps and avoiding the records. My training partner and I crashed at exactly the same time - it was around week 8 I think we just died. I'm not talking "oh, I think I'm overtrained" - I'm talking about serious debilitation and just complete burn out of the CNS and recuperative capabilities. It took 2 full weeks off before we were decently recovered and probably longer before we were ready to seriously train hard again. And no, we were not rewarded with extra gains. It completely pushed the body beyond its limits and crashed it. It was probably 4 weeks before we began another training cycle. A hell of a good illustration into overtraining and one's limitations - probably valuable to do once but it really screws up your training and general life, very difficult to function and use your brain at normal levels.
Anyway, the 3x3 period with its much lower volume serves the purpose of deloading. You'll be able to go right back into the 5x5 and it will generally be a lot smoother. You'll know your previous maxes precisely, all the kinks will be worked out, you'll have a better idea of your tolerances and the appropriate weekly ramp up weights. I wouldn't make much in the way of changes (subbing incline for military, highpulls for deadlifts, cleans for rows, db curls for bb curls - that stuff is fine). Run it 2-3 times through. After that you'll know your body and this methodology really well and you will be able to adapt the framework to accomodate more specialized work.
Interestingly when everyone begins they want to change it all around, towards the end of the volume phase they realize how well it works and how much stonger and more solid they feel, they see the bulk of the gains in the intensity phase and start praising the hell out of it - by the time they run it 2-3 times they tend not to want to change much and anything they do is fairly minor in an effort to keep intact the structure they so badly wanted to break in the beginning.
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Yeah well im a convert thats for sure. Mad you mentioned the point about you and your partner being overtrained, and about thaht it took 4 weeks for you to get back. Ive had this fuzzy feeling going on on my body for quite some time now where i feel very weak at times, always catching colds, no energy. Ive thought that i might be overtrained so have had a few breaks, the longest being two weeks but after that still felt like SHIT. I thought it may be something medical, but believe me ive been through the medical wringer and they tell me im fit and healthy yet i feel so weak. Do you think i may be overtrained and that i need to take a break for more than 2 weeks. What you described sounds very familiar. My naturopath did tell me a one point that im adrenally fatigued...what do you think Bro?
Well, if you're making gains and progressing it's hard to assume overtraining and given there is a deloading phase in the 2nd half of this program that might bring you back if it was but I'm not convinced that's it. As far as the adrenal glands and their specific fatigue - I'm just not knowledgable enough to offer much. I'm assuming you had a specific test done for this and it's not just something the doc threw out in casual conversation as a hypothetical. You might post over at www.mesomorphosis.com. There is a guy named Swale who is a doctor and fairly expert in HRT - he mods the HRT forum there. Given his involvement at a weighttraining site he might have some insight in how your symptoms and adrenal fatigue might relate or perhaps point you in a specific direction. Another option is posting at the olympic lifting forums at GoHeavy: http://www.goheavy.com/forums/olympic/ That forum is stacked with long time coaches - Glenn Pendlay is also a mod there, they might also shed some insight on this or know to whom to refer you. If you could identify the test, relevant values, and the conclusion your doc drew from them that might help a lot.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhettoStudMuffin
Thanks alot bro. A few last questions for you. Can I run it circuit style? I mean do my warmups circuit style until I'm ready for the top sets and then do a set, rest 3-5 minutes, do another exercise, rest 3-5 minutes, then do the 3rd exercise and repeat?
I like to take my time between sets so I can put my max effort into them. I don't like to rush it and be sopping wet and out of breath the whole time. I ask whether or not I can do it circuit style not because I want to save time or get a cardio workout from it, but so that I can better spread my focus over all 3 exercises, rather than have the most gas for the first and have less and less for the second and then the least for the last. I want them all to get an equal share. I noticed that the way it's setup that maybe this isn't the best way. I mean the monday workout it looks like by the time I'm done with squats i'm gonna be pretty tired by the time I hit bench to do it real justice? Wednesday seems doable circuit style to spread the effort better because they all have the same reps, but again, friday looks not as easy to do it circuit style like monday.
What do you think? What's the best way to do it and how much rest do you take between sets? Should I just treat each exercise as it's own thing? I mean should I warmup, then hit my sets hard, rest abit, then do the same on the next exercise, rest abit, then finsh the last exercise the same way?
Aren't you running out of gas by the last exercise? It just seems that on the monday workout you'll be gassed by the time you hit bench, on wednesday you'll be gassed by the time you hit military and on friday you'll be gassed by the time you hit rows?
These are the last questions I have. I believe I have a solid idea of how it all works except for these last minor details. Thanks again bro. Sorry for nitpicking, but I really like to get all the little details, and I have read those other threads, but they don't answer some of these questions. I know it's lomg, but if you can go through each of my questions I'd appreciate and put it on the 5x5 madcow thread for all to see who might have similar questions. Thanks again amigo.
No curcuit style, that's just not a good way to build muscle (better to break it into 3x per day workouts, 1 for each exercise than do that). Warm up and go through it in the order. You can switch up the order of benches and rows week to week should you choose. On the days where you squat for 5x5 you are only doing a single heavy set of bench and rows - the rest of the sets are a pyramid and should be less taxing.
The weeks outside the record weeks shouldn't be too hard. I set my weights to work through week 1 at a pretty smooth clip. Week 2 gets a bit more taxing and by weeks 3 and 4 there's not much left. Week 5 slashes the volume and feels nice and easy, then it builds to weeks 8/9 in 3x3. The first time you run it start conservatively and don't be truly pushing yourself until week 3. Remember that a giant portion of the stimulus is in the volume and not necessarily pushing your limits on sets (that said you do need to be lifting at max or close to max capacity in the record weeks).
Gasing hasn't been a problem for me and most people. Take the time you need between sets. In the easy weeks I move at a good clip. As I need more rest to make target weights I take it. Don't be lazy but don't let pace compromise your workouts.
Originally Posted by GhettoStudMuffin
Thanks alot bro. A few last questions for you. Can I run it circuit style? I mean do my warmups circuit style until I'm ready for the top sets and then do a set, rest 3-5 minutes, do another exercise, rest 3-5 minutes, then do the 3rd exercise and repeat?
I like to take my time between sets so I can put my max effort into them. I don't like to rush it and be sopping wet and out of breath the whole time. I ask whether or not I can do it circuit style not because I want to save time or get a cardio workout from it, but so that I can better spread my focus over all 3 exercises, rather than have the most gas for the first and have less and less for the second and then the least for the last. I want them all to get an equal share. I noticed that the way it's setup that maybe this isn't the best way. I mean the monday workout it looks like by the time I'm done with squats i'm gonna be pretty tired by the time I hit bench to do it real justice? Wednesday seems doable circuit style to spread the effort better because they all have the same reps, but again, friday looks not as easy to do it circuit style like monday.
What do you think? What's the best way to do it and how much rest do you take between sets? Should I just treat each exercise as it's own thing? I mean should I warmup, then hit my sets hard, rest abit, then do the same on the next exercise, rest abit, then finsh the last exercise the same way?
Aren't you running out of gas by the last exercise? It just seems that on the monday workout you'll be gassed by the time you hit bench, on wednesday you'll be gassed by the time you hit military and on friday you'll be gassed by the time you hit rows?
These are the last questions I have. I believe I have a solid idea of how it all works except for these last minor details. Thanks again bro. Sorry for nitpicking, but I really like to get all the little details, and I have read those other threads, but they don't answer some of these questions. I know it's lomg, but if you can go through each of my questions I'd appreciate and put it on the 5x5 madcow thread for all to see who might have similar questions. Thanks again amigo.
No curcuit style, that's just not a good way to build muscle (better to break it into 3x per day workouts, 1 for each exercise than do that). Warm up and go through it in the order. You can switch up the order of benches and rows week to week should you choose. On the days where you squat for 5x5 you are only doing a single heavy set of bench and rows - the rest of the sets are a pyramid and should be less taxing.
The weeks outside the record weeks shouldn't be too hard. I set my weights to work through week 1 at a pretty smooth clip. Week 2 gets a bit more taxing and by weeks 3 and 4 there's not much left. Week 5 slashes the volume and feels nice and easy, then it builds to weeks 8/9 in 3x3. The first time you run it start conservatively and don't be truly pushing yourself until week 3. Remember that a giant portion of the stimulus is in the volume and not necessarily pushing your limits on sets (that said you do need to be lifting at max or close to max capacity in the record weeks).
Gasing hasn't been a problem for me and most people. Take the time you need between sets. In the easy weeks I move at a good clip. As I need more rest to make target weights I take it. Don't be lazy but don't let pace compromise your workouts.
ghettostudmuffin
New member
Man, I'm a question machine!
Hey madcow, is it cool to switch the military press to weighted dips?
Hey madcow, is it cool to switch the military press to weighted dips?
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