got a few questions dealing with ketosis

[110%]

i have a few questions dealing with ketosis:
- do u have to be eating absolutely no carbs to reach ketosis, or can you be eating like 30 postworkout everyday and since this is being used to restore glycogen you can still have no gluclose in the blood stream and still reach ketosis?

- how long does it take to get into it, i have heard around 2 days. though is this 2 days with absolutley 0 carbs, or just low carbs?

- basically wha tim trying to understand with these questions, so with crums diet if i have around 50 grams dextrose postworkout so 5 times a week, i can still reach ketosis?

- this quote is from mr. x in his ckd article, can someone help me understand why this is true. (due to the fact that no insulin is present in the system, there will be NO muscle gain while in Ketosis)

 

[plornive]

Eating zero carbs allows you to eat more protein without preventing ketosis. Since roughly 58% of protein ("The Ketogenic Diet") is converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, you need to limit protein almost as much as you need to limit carbs. Whether or not you consume carbs is not as important as if you maximize the ketogenic ratio:

.46*P + .9*F + 0*C
---------------------
.58*P + .1*F + 1*C

Where P, F, and C mean calories from protein, carbohydrate, and fat, respectively. If you cannot get into ketosis, you need to raise this ratio. Everyone is different as far as their required ratio for ketosis. Early in the diet, the ratio can be lower, but later on it actually needs to be higher to get/stay in ketosis.

If you eat zero carbs, 30% protein, and 70% fat, I'm 95% sure you will get into ketosis. If you train really hard for two days and do cardio after training on the second day, I'm 99% sure you will be in ketosis by the next morning, if not immediately after cardio.

As far as ingesting carbs post-workout, I have no experience with targeted ketogenic diets (taking some carbs post-workout). Supposedly, you can take some carbs to replenish glycogen and return to ketosis very soon afterwards, but I have never tried it.

As a side note, you need to really avoid drinking whey without fat. Whey absorbs quickly, and the ensuing gluconeogenesis could kick you out of ketosis. There is no in between. You either do a targeted ketogenic diet, or you make sure you stay in ketosis by not drastically changing your ketogenic ratio in your post-workout meal (perhaps even raising it if you are paranoid).

 

[plornive]

By the way, Crum's diet won't keep you in ketosis. You may drift in and out of ketosis, but it definitely won't be constant. I wouldn't call it a ketogenic diet, as I'm sure the brain never really gets used to using ketones.

 

[110%]

ok those answers def helped me, thx man. though one more, haha. what exactly is the process of ketosis, i know that their is no glucose in the blood stream so where do ketones come from? arent foods broken down into certain ratios glucose and the rest ketones? liek what is the whole concept if u get my questions? how does it work.

 

[plornive]

If there is no insulin, I can't think of a way muscle can be synthesized. No matter what kind of diet you are on, without glucose beyond the brain's needs, your recovery time from workouts will probably double (i.e. you will be sore much longer after a workout). On Crum's diet, there is enough glucose because of gluconeogenesis to cut recovery time down. The carbs post-workout also definitely help.

 

[plornive]

Hmmm... wish I knew it well enough to explain how it works. Here goes...
Fat is mobilized and converted to ketones by the liver. Before this happens, the hormone glucagon must signal the liver to start the process of ketone production. Before glucagon is secreted, you must raise the ketogenic ratio sufficiently.

While the liver is converting fatty acids to ketones, it is using gluconeogenesis to create glucose. If the ketogenic ratio is high enough, ketones will reach a high enough number relative to glucose and you will be in "ketosis". It takes roughly 3 weeks for your body to completely adjust. In that time, you brain learns to use ketones for a significant portion of it's fuel. However, it STILL needs some glucose (small amount). That is why you need to eat sufficient protein and carbs to provide your body with enough material to create the glucose your brain needs and also meet amino acid requirements. It is easiest to eat no carbs, as one gram of carb means you will have less wiggle room to add protein for your amino acid requirements. Remember that about 58% of protein will be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis.

That is the best I can summon at this time. Hope that helps.

 

[plornive]

Oh, and during weight training, your body uses glucose almost exclusively. Perhaps it uses some ketones as well as fatty acids between sets for recovery, but your type 2 muscle fibers (strong ones) can only really use glycogen during a hard set.

 

[plornive]

arent foods broken down into certain ratios glucose and the rest ketones?

The ketogenic ratio reflects this. I'm not sure it it really represents the ratio of ketones being produced to glucose being produced, but there is some relation. It probably depends on the amount of ketones and glucose already in the blood, the individual in question and tons of other factors. There is some kind of feedback loop. This is what keeps your blood from becoming too acidic ("ketoacidosis").