Dissapointed with gains - How much protein do you REALLY need?

[Riker29]

Guys, looking back over the past several years of my training and sort of taking stock of where I am, I am somewhat dissapointed with the gains I have had.

Sure I have gotten larger, and have not put on a bunch of fat or anything, but I am trying to figure out why I am simply not larger than I am.

I KNOW that to some extent I was overtraining. I mean, 4 days a week, and doing like 14-18 set per bodypart TO FAILURE ON EACH ..... yeah ...... that's a bit of overkill. But I can summon up strength and Will like no one else when needed (mind over body)

The only thing I can figure out that may be causing this (lack of gains) is maybe the overtraining, and probably my diet ......

so my question is.....

How much protein do you REALLY need?

I am 5'9", weigh about 198 lbs, about 12% BF.

Lets say I was gonna do a Test/Tren cycle to mainly put on lean mass (leaning up even more would be nice too) - how much protein should I be eating?

Its just that ...... well ... its seems to me that maybe I have not been eating enough of it. I tend to think (I may be wrong) that these dudes who do 300 or 400 gms/day are over-doing it, becuase I do NOT want to be fat or bloated but .... I dunno......

Any ideas?

 

[genarr3]

At 240lbs I only get between 250 - 300 grams of quality protein <real food>. I understand you're supposedly supposed to get more but I really don't see how I could add any extra without overeating and getting fat. I gain nicely when on and feel good with that amount.

From what I've read of your post it sounds like you might be overtraining.

 

[jstrong20]

I eat 2g's of protein per lbs. of bw. I have a high metabolism and 1g per lbs. of bw just doesn't cut it for me. So you should give that a try and see what happens next cycle.

 

[Twitched]

At 240lbs I only get between 250 - 300 grams of quality protein <real food>. I understand you're supposedly supposed to get more but I really don't see how I could add any extra without overeating and getting fat. I gain nicely when on and feel good with that amount.

From what I've read of your post it sounds like you might be overtraining.

Do you compete genarr?

 

[Evik]

I aim for 2g per lb of body weight when on, and about 1.5 when off. I have done many cycles and still keep gaining well using this method.

 

[genarr3]

Do you compete genarr?

Back in the day I did a few powerlifting meets, never was real serious though. I'm thinking of making a comeback and hitting a few this summer. I think I'm going to do alot better this time, I was totally natural back then and now ...

 

[Riker29]

Yeah, I realize that my overtraining may have actually held back my gains a bit.

But you know how you get .......not gaining ...... train HARDER to get results ...... LOL.

Anyway .....

Can you guys do this like 1.5, 2.0, 3.0(!) grams protein per pound of bodyweight and NOT put on fat?

 

[1Banshee]

Can you guys do this like 1.5, 2.0, 3.0(!) grams protein per pound of bodyweight and NOT put on fat? [/B]

I have found for me 1.5 seems to be about the perfect level.... I have tried to cram more in and it just does not seem to help. Much less than 1.5 though and it does seem to effect my gains. I have had to keep track of my diet closely to find what worked best for me, and it took a while!!! At 1.5 I can make good gains without excess, and minimal BF gains...

 

[jstrong20]

I don't get fat from 2g's of protein per lbs. of bw. Besides its hard for the body to turn protien into fat.

 

[1Banshee]

I don't get fat from 2g's of protein per lbs. of bw. Besides its hard for the body to turn protien into fat.

Correct, VERY difficult... For me it is the calories that go with the upped intake. I can't seem to get around them, and I have tried!!!

 

[xonic2xonic]

Getting a bit of fat while trying to bulk seems to happen to most good gainers, you just have to cut it back after, hence it is always bulk and cut, bulk and cut....

Now one thing I am not sure about when people say quality "REAL" food protein, I am not sure what they mean. Some veggies have incomplete protein. Whey powder I thought is one of the best and most complete protein sources, is this incorrect? I usually take in ~250g protein of which ~100g is from whey.

Thanks!

 

[Yll]

Whole food protein ratings

#1 is dairy protein/eggs etc....

#2 meat/fish/chicken(animal)

The rest im not sure about but the problem with whey is it burns as fast as 1 hour. Thats ok if your a top pro and have nothing better to do but drink a whey shake every hour but for us who lead normal lives whole food is the way to go since the proteins burn slower unless its post workout or upon rising in the morning. This is where whey protein would be highly recommended.

I take in up to 300 grams. I weigh about 220. 100 grams of that are whey.

 

[Vageta]

I don't think your problem is protein, it sounds like it's lack of calories in general. A high carb diet is protein sparing by nature so theoretically the more carbs you eat the less protein you need as your body won't be using it for anything other than building muscle. Eating a shitload of protein and not enough fats and carbs is pointless. Whatever energy your body can't get from carbs or fat it will take from the protein so it ends up only getting what is left over anyways.

Protein is more important while cutting than it is while bulking. You have to keep protein high while dieting because you aren't eating enough calories in general to spare the protein thus you need as much as you can get. While bulking and in a hypercaloric state your body will choose the path of least resistance for energy needs, that being carbs, and it will leave all of the protein you eat for repair.

So as I said in the beginning it sounds like you were so worried about protein intake that you didn't get enough calories in general. While bulking I think 2x bodyweight is overkill, 1.5 is probably all you really need so long as you are getting plenty of carbs and good fats. I think 50/25/25 carbs/pro/fat is a great ratio to start out with. You are about 200 pounds so I'd say BMR is probably 3000+. So on a good cycle you need to eat probably 4500-5000 calories to get some good growth. That'd be 625g carbs, 313g protein and 139g fat. 300+ protein is plenty and I'd say if you wanted to go higher then no more than 400, that'd still leave 500+ of carbs.

I think people get on this low carb craze with diets and try to apply the same logic with bulking and unfortunately it doesn't cut it. If you want to grow you have to eat and you need to eat carbs to spare your protein. A bulking diet that is high in protein and has too little carbs just turns protein into expensive energy. Face it, to get big you have to eat big and be prepared to put on a little fat. If you never want to lose your abs while bulking then it is going to take a very long time to put on quality weight. To keep your bodyfat low at the end of a bulk cycle you need to get your bodyfat as low as possible to begin with. I am dieting down right now with this exact plan in mind. I hope to get around 8% and then keep it the rest of the summer. Then this fall/winter I will do an 8 week bulk cycle and I'm guessing I probably won't go back over 12% which I can handle.

 

[Vageta]

Also it doesn't matter if protein has a harder time turning into fat or not, if you are eating more than you burn then you will gain weight. Even if you at nothing but protein you would still gain fat if you ate more than you burned. The body will easily turn protein into energy or stored energy when the conditions call for it. The amount of protein you eat while bulking is really insignificant for total fat gain. The main thing that matters is total caloric intake. Doesn't matter if you eat 5000 calories with 3x protein per bodyweight or 5000 calories with 2x bodyweight. If you're eating more than you're burning then you will gain weight and some will unfortunately be fat.

Suck it up and deal with it. To gain muscle in the shortest possible time frame which seems to be your goal, you have to eat big and not worry about fat. If you were to eat only a little bit over your BMR in fear of fat gain it'd probably take you years to gain the same muscle that you could have done in 1 or 2 cycles of eating big.

 

[Beezers]

Vageta hit the nail on the head. My impression is that it's lack of calories, specificaly carbohydrate, that is the source of your less than stellar gains. Protein is one of five "nutrients" in the equation. Protien, carbs, fat, water, and vitamins and minerals(lumped into one for simplicity). Protein is the only thing that muscle cells can use to repair/construct themselves, so it does take precendence in a bodybuilding diet where the goal is muscle hypertrophy, however should you be lacking in other nutrients the body will not function as effeciently as possible. Without carbs pratien is glycogenated and used to fuel the body in the form of glucose. In this state, which the nitrogen has been removed, it is of no use to muscles for muscle reapair...It's now simple glucose. When one is on AS they are not "metabolicaly normal". You are able to grow at a very rapid pace and that requires a LOT of calories. Your muscle cells have been signaled to use more protein to make themselves bigger so there is an obvious increase in the need for protein. This is why an AS using athlete can use far more protein than a natural one. Along with this increased rate of protein synthesis comes an increased demand for glucose to fuel anabolism. The easiest way to get this is through carb intake. Carbs will fuel grueling training sessions so you can give it everything you've got in the gym. The biggest mistake I often see people make is to not eat nearly enough carbs of even worse, no carbs. Carbohydrate should be the bulk of your diet. This will spare the protein to do its job of building muscle tissue. All this leads to an increased need for total calories. Eat to few and you won't grow or won't grow optimally. It's not just about protein.

 

[chrisoh]

anyone have a chart with the protein contents of various foods?

 

[ryker77]

You can go to champion-nutrition and download a great program.

 

[ironbarbarian]

I don't think your problem is protein, it sounds like it's lack of calories in general. A high carb diet is protein sparing by nature so theoretically the more carbs you eat the less protein you need as your body won't be using it for anything other than building muscle. Eating a shitload of protein and not enough fats and carbs is pointless. Whatever energy your body can't get from carbs or fat it will take from the protein so it ends up only getting what is left over anyways.

Protein is more important while cutting than it is while bulking. You have to keep protein high while dieting because you aren't eating enough calories in general to spare the protein thus you need as much as you can get. While bulking and in a hypercaloric state your body will choose the path of least resistance for energy needs, that being carbs, and it will leave all of the protein you eat for repair.

So as I said in the beginning it sounds like you were so worried about protein intake that you didn't get enough calories in general. While bulking I think 2x bodyweight is overkill, 1.5 is probably all you really need so long as you are getting plenty of carbs and good fats. I think 50/25/25 carbs/pro/fat is a great ratio to start out with. You are about 200 pounds so I'd say BMR is probably 3000+. So on a good cycle you need to eat probably 4500-5000 calories to get some good growth. That'd be 625g carbs, 313g protein and 139g fat. 300+ protein is plenty and I'd say if you wanted to go higher then no more than 400, that'd still leave 500+ of carbs.

I think people get on this low carb craze with diets and try to apply the same logic with bulking and unfortunately it doesn't cut it. If you want to grow you have to eat and you need to eat carbs to spare your protein. A bulking diet that is high in protein and has too little carbs just turns protein into expensive energy. Face it, to get big you have to eat big and be prepared to put on a little fat. If you never want to lose your abs while bulking then it is going to take a very long time to put on quality weight. To keep your bodyfat low at the end of a bulk cycle you need to get your bodyfat as low as possible to begin with. I am dieting down right now with this exact plan in mind. I hope to get around 8% and then keep it the rest of the summer. Then this fall/winter I will do an 8 week bulk cycle and I'm guessing I probably won't go back over 12% which I can handle.

I totally agree. It has happened to me, and I was debating this last week bro. The thing that happened to me, was that for the past year, I didnt grow much and happens to be that I wasnt eating enough carbs+fats. I was eating enough protein but trust me man, you WONT grow without carbs and fat.

So, DIG IN bro!

IB

 

[rockett]

Riker

it would probably be a big help to get a diet log and keep as detailed info as you can. Start with what and how you eat at the present for about 2 weeks. Try not to change things. this will be your baseline. At that point analyze it and figure out your p.c.f ratios to your bw. you will need to figure out what is the best %'s of each for your body/workout style. Then you need to make changes to the amounts kinda like a pyramid. change /eat / train for awhile until your diet/workout/logs show whether its for the better or worse. keep adjusting up or down as the records show. It is tedious and time consuming but it is on of the best ways to moniter keep track that i have used.