Gaining Lean Body Muscle while losing fat... mass

[razer2000]

I've read a lot of interesting threads about this subject on this board, and the weight of this board seems to feel that you need to bulk (eat more calories than your body needs) to gain muscle, then cut to shed the fat - in that order.

Why can't someone actually lose body fat while still building muscle? Assuming optimum nutrition, what would stop that from happening?

I ask this because I'd like to hear some informed opinions on this matter. I personally don't like to put on all that body fat. I've done only one cycle in the past and I ballooned up to 240 lbs, and was extremely uncomfortable. I prefer to be lean - and not just for aesthetic reasons.

I'd like my second cycle to be one where I eat very strict and try and build only lean body mass, but I see most people split everything into two categories - cutting cycle and bulking cycle. I'd like to pose the question of why can't someone do a "bulking" cycle while still trying to lose or maintain current levels of body fat? Why must one choose between the two?

I hope this sparks a lively, thoughtful exchange of ideas and information.

 

[strengthmonster]

Even when the diet is exceptionally clean, in order to add muscle mass calories must be high as well as protein, carbs etc. The excess of calories over your BMR will add some fat to you even if you are eating a very low amount. Without this bulking period muscle will not grow as to diet you are taking away many of the things needed for lean muscle growth.

 

[Beezers]

, and the weight of this board seems to feel that you need to bulk (eat more calories than your body needs) to gain muscle,

The bulk of this board does not seem to FEEL that you must consume hypercaloric diet to add mass....Science and human physiology make this rule. This is a fact of life. If you want to add mass to your body you must consume more calories than you burn...otherwise too many other more important processes will be alloted the limited energy to carry out vital body functions while in a reduced calorie state. Can't eat more calories than you use and less calories than you use in the same day can you? Tha't why you need consistantly consume excess calories along with high protein to add muscle mass. This is not what the board SEEMS to feel. This is the rule human physiology has set.

Why can't someone actually lose body fat while still building muscle? Assuming optimum nutrition, what would stop that from happening?

Refer to part one of this serman.

I ask this because I'd like to hear some informed opinions on this matter. I personally don't like to put on all that body fat. I've done only one cycle in the past and I ballooned up to 240 lbs, and was extremely uncomfortable. I prefer to be lean - and not just for aesthetic reasons.

Gotta make acrifices to get massive...to acheive your full mass pottential. That means sacrificing ripped abs and a lean physique while pushing the limits of mass on your body.

I'd like my second cycle to be one where I eat very strict and try and build only lean body mass, but I see most people split everything into two categories - cutting cycle and bulking cycle. I'd like to pose the question of why can't someone do a "bulking" cycle while still trying to lose or maintain current levels of body fat? Why must one choose between the two?

Again...to gain mass you must be consuming more calories than you burn. To loose weight(fat) you must be using more calories than you consume. You can and most certainly should eat clean nutritious foods, but the fact of the matter is calorie intake. Eat all the oats and chicken you want, but if your calories from those oats and chicken are higher than your expenditure you will gain weight. If you're a hard training individual most of it will be solid muscle mass. It all boils down to caloric intake.

I hope this sparks a lively, thoughtful exchange of ideas and information.

 

[razer2000]

Fair enough. Well put....

But haven't you known or observed a really fat, out-of-shape guy start at your gym, and over time, watch him slim down AND get stronger at the same time?

I have seen and know people like that - ones that finally decide to get back in shape. They join the gym, start hitting the weights, hit the treadmill, and start watching their diets more carefully. I see them shed pounds, and I watch as their poundages on their lifts increase. I'm assuming that they are actually building muscle because they get stronger. I can't actually say I see them getting bigger (muscle growth) because their bodies are actually getting smaller, but I'm assuming that muscle is being built under the fat.

Since they are shedding fat, why are they also getting stronger? Can it be that they are actually losing (or, at best, maintaining) their muscle mass, but that their muscles are just getting more efficient, more in shape, but not necessarily bigger?

Observing people like this is what made me start this thread. It sure seems to me that these guys are building muscle WHILE losing fat.

I thank you for imparting your knowledge.

 

[serge]

you cant effeciently do both at the same time, they contridict each other. if you take 4 months and do your bulking cycle on a reduced calorie diet in an attempt to gain mass and loose fat at the same time; and compare the results with just doing 2months of all out bulking followed by 2 months of all out cutting, the bulking followed by cutting will result in much better outcome

 

[Vageta]

I believe it is theoretically impossible for your body to actually do both things at the same time, literally. Your body must be in a catabolic state to burn fat and it must be in an anabolic state to burn muscle. I don't think these 2 states can occur simultaneously. However I do think that you can alternate between them in a short period of time, perhaps many times a day, and thus will it will "seem" like you are doing it at the same time.

This short period of time could be in days, hours, or whatever. For example if you had 12 weeks to get in shape but you needed to lose some fat and put on a bit of muscle how would you do it? Bulk 6 weeks and then cut 6 weeks? Not the best choice as 6 solid weeks of cutting is bound to burn off some of the muscle you gained during the bulking. What if you did 1 week of bulking followed by 1 week of cutting for 6 straight cycles? Due to the short period of time you are in each cycle you would probably end up in better shape as your body won't burn much muscle in that week of dieting, especially if you've just came off of a high calorie week. This has to do with hormonal responses, aka leptin, along with physcological reasons. I guarantee you that if you only had to diet a week at a time you could stick to it 100% whereas doing it for 6 weeks at a time might test your perseverence.

Or perhaps you can do it on a daily basis. The key is you don't magically switch from anabolism to catabolism in a heartbeat. If you normally eat 6 times a day at 400 calories a meal then you get 2400 calories for the day. You are obviously in a dieting phase and should be losing fat. Now what if you ate 500 calories for the first 3 meals then 300 calories for the last 3 meals, would you still lose the same amount of fat? You should. How does your body know that the extra calories in the first 3 meals will be balanced by the fewer calories in the last 3 meals? It doesn't, therefore it just keeps going based on what you're giving it.

So what if we switched up our eating to revolve around the workout. We know protein synthesis is elevated post workout thus our body is in a prime environment to shuttle amino acids and nutrients into the muscle to promote growth. So what if we worked out in the morning, then for so many hours we fed it quality protein and carbs to promote anabolism, then after so many hours we switch back to our diet. Our results would depend on total caloric intake for the day. If we are over our maintenance level we should gain some amount of weight for the day. If we are under maintenance we should lose some amount of weight. If we choose the latter hopefully we've put on a small amount of muscle during that short time after the workout and then later that day we've burned off some fat while keeping what muscle we built.

Looking at the amount built and lost in one day isn't much, but if we continued this cycle for weeks on end we should be able to slowly alter our body composition in a positive manner. Sure you're not going to put on 20 pounds in 12 weeks, however you might be able to put on 10 pounds along with lose 10 pounds of fat which is even more of a drastic change as far as body ratios go. This is all theory of course though I might be testing it out in the weeks to come. I'm more interested in building muslce mass without significant fat gain so there is no essential dieting every year. If you can eat a certain way to promote LBM gains without fat gains then it would take a full fledge diet out of the game.

So short answer is no you can't really do it at the same time, but I think you can do it in short cycles to give the appearance of doing it at the same time.

 

[Nathan]

Serge posted some great info regarding the necessity to all-out bulk. Check it out if you haven't already.
I think this is a good question that everyone is interested in. More testing needs to be done regarding diets and ways to put on muscle or at the very least conserve it when losing fat.
Maybe I'll try bulking for a week and then dieting the next week for a few months or so and see what happens. It seems that the theory is there.

 

[bgdaddysmooth]

I think it's possible for some to do both at the same time, but not everyone. Fat fucks who lose weight and get stronger do so b/c they probably just started lifting, or came back after a break. Everyone knows what the gains are like the first month or two of training. If you have great genes, you might be able to do it even if you're not a newbie. I've tried and tried again, and it just won't happen for me. Now I've just said fuck it. I either bulk or cut, nothing else( well I just maintain at times). Even shit like fina, which is supposed to put on mass and reduce body fat, didn't do it for me. I had great gains when I ate enough, or I lost a lot of fat when I cut. This probably isn't what you want to hear, but it's what I've found out after YEARS of experimenting.

 

[Digital Ronin]

Fair enough. Well put....

But haven't you known or observed a really fat, out-of-shape guy start at your gym, and over time, watch him slim down AND get stronger at the same time?

Yes, this was me many years ago... but in truth, these (me) individuals are simply so out of shape (it almost pains me to remember these days) that any increase in cardiovascular activity is going to increae their metabolism and therefore burn fat... Couple this with the fact that they are probably gung ho on their diet (the first time for many of these people) and some resistance training (for muscles that have had limited use) and these are the results you'll see. What we aren't seeing is these people putting on 15-20lbs of LBM and losing 5-6% bf. These people are simply getting back to square one. Once their body regulates itself, then you're going to see diminished returns on their program.

Just my personal experience...

 

[bsjohnson]

Lets look at one week. Lets say your body needs 2000Kcals to maintain your present weight. You workout hard 5days a week, and 2days you just rest and sit on your ass. Well for the 5days you train hard you will increase you Kcal intake to compensate for your increase energy. Well for the two days you rest don't consume 3000kcals, b/c your body doesn't need that many. So you want to zig-zag your diet to meet your needs for the day. Don't treat every day the same, each day is a new day, and your activity levels will be different. Plan a head, eat a clean diet, hit the cardio, and weights, and you will loose bodyfat, and put on lean muscle. It just takes time!!!